To My LGBTQ Friends, On Father’s Day

Dear Friend,

Father’s Day is nearly here and I was thinking about you. I was wondering what this day is like for you.

You might have a really good relationship with your father.

He might be fully present and invested in your life.
He may be supportive and encouraging and attentive.
He may be generous with his affection and effusive with his praise.
He may be your most passionate defender and your loudest cheerleader.

But I also know that he may not be all of any of those things.

There may be geographic separation or emotional distance since you’ve come out. There may have been terribly wounding words spoken to you in haste or fear or ignorance.
There may be radio silence between you two because of it.
He may have passed away before ever making peace with your truth or reassuring you of his love for you or putting words to the contents of his heart.

And so Father’s Day may bring mourning.
It may be another occasion to grieve, another reminder of the distance that exists, another day to feel the weight of the loss.
This day might exponentially amplify the hurt you feel every day.

I know I can’t erase in a few minutes the damage you may have acquired over a lifetime.
I know I can’t change your everyday reality with any magic words right now. 
And most importantly, I know that I am not your father and so there is probably only so much that I can do to renovate the broken places in your heart.

But I wanted to try.

I wanted you to hear from another father, words that if you haven’t heard from your own—you deserve to hear:

You are loved.
You are not a mistake.
You are not a disappointment.

You are original and beautiful—and just as you’re supposed to be.
You are as God intended you.
You are doing amazing things to alter this place every single day.
This world is better, kinder, more wonderful because you are here.
I wouldn’t want you to change a thing about yourself.
I am proud of you.

No matter who we are or what we become, none of us ever stop craving our parent’s approval. And no matter how old we get or what we achieve or accomplish as adults, we will always be striving, unsure little boys and girls who only want to know our daddies love us and that we’re safe.

I hope you know this assurance.
I hope you’ve heard the words.
I hope you’ve felt the embrace.
I hope this day finds you resting securely in the knowledge that in your father’s presence, you are welcomed, you are adored—you are home.

But if not, I pray that these words from another father give you a small measure of solace, a bit of hope, enough comfort to carry you through this incredibly difficult day.

And maybe a year from now, there will be reconciliation and restoration and reunion. Maybe there will be a proximity you don’t have today. Maybe a year from now you will not be hearing these words from a stranger, but from the man you most deserve to hear them from.

Love and peace to you on this Father’s Day.

 

 

94 thoughts on “To My LGBTQ Friends, On Father’s Day

  1. This made me weep. I am not LGBTQ, but I needed to read these words because to my father I was not “You are loved.
    You are not a mistake.
    You are not a disappointment.
    You are original and beautiful—and just as you’re supposed to be.
    You are as God intended you.
    You are doing amazing things to alter this place every single day.
    This world is better, kinder, more wonderful because you are here.
    I wouldn’t want you to change a thing about yourself.” Nor did he ever say “I am proud of you.”

    Had I been created lesbian, I never would have dared to tell him.

    I constantly failed his tests to see if I loved my daddy. It was terrifying to me to be six, eight, ten, and being told I had failed his test and my daddy didn’t believe I loved him. By the time I was twelve I didn’t care if he did or not because I no longer had any respect for him as I learned what a bigoted, misogynistic, prejudiced racist he was.

    I am grateful to know there are men like John P out there in the world, loving their kids for who they are.

    I also know that there are going to be a LOT of people who read this and will miss the point of this essay and will distort it into a conversation about whether or not it is ok to be homosexual or transgender.

    They are going to miss the point that this essay is about offering comfort to those who were rejected by their fathers. And maybe the fathers who read this need to examine their own parenting styles.

    This essay has NOTHING to do with the fact of homosexuality. This essay is a challenge to fathers (and mothers) to be better fathers and mothers.

    • God does not make mistakes , man does with out god,
      God is always forgiving, Loving , caring untill the end.
      But God is Just, and Holy and cannot dwell with sin.
      Mankind is sin, that is why the holy spirit intercedes for us thru a Blood sacrafice for our sin. My sin, the sin that endwells us all .
      You were created as you are , accepted in the beloved, not mans way. Gods Way, YOUR Beautiful to God.

      • Christopher Freeman wrote “You were created as you are , accepted in the beloved, not mans way. Gods Way, YOUR Beautiful to God.”

        Thank you for saying that.

    • I got teary eyed reading this too. I think anyone who has had a difficult relationship with their father can relate regardless of sexual orientation etc.

  2. God Is always , I mean always The Heavenly Father
    Father to the fatherless
    Dad to those with out a dad
    and filling in the gaps for those who are out of place.
    YOU NOT ALONE
    Jesus Love s YOU , and wants You to commune with Him.
    Our father , not exclusive , God of the Universe, Maker of Heaven and Earth.
    He who began will finish a good work in you if you really want him to.
    May God open your eyes today, let you have peace, give you hope, let you see future.
    songs of Joy, Songs of Laughter, songs of Gods whisper in the moment . as we listen .
    Be Still and Know that he is god . Holy God, who loves you and wants a relationship of Reverence, Respect, Fatherhood
    God The Father , God the Holy Spirit , the comforter for us all as we endure the lonely moments of time.
    And cherish the Hope to come , when Jesus Christ comes for His People who Love Him and accept him.

  3. And from LGBTQ to Dad…

    Dear Dad, thank you for being my Father. I appreciate the things that you were able to do for me. I know you tried. I know it was hard for you, — you did your best to provide for us, feed us, clothe us, educate us. There were times that I did feel close to you, I treasure that. There were times when I felt distant & alone & hurt, –as I continue to forgive, I heal from those slights. I don’t compare you to others any longer. I did learn things from you that have helped me be a better person. I have found things to admire about you. I know you love me. I love you too. Happy Father’s Day.

  4. My father – dead some 35 years never had a clue anything was different about me because – and this is speculative – if a young kid acts up “abnormally” in my day just beat the hell out of them – so I learned early, early on certain things must at all costs be kept secret. So I learned to live vicariously as other people until I discovered who I am.
    I am glad and proud of who I am and I believe my father was proud of who I ‘was’ – the son he thought he knew but never knew the truth.

    • {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Ellis}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

      “I am glad and proud of who I am and I believe my father was proud of who I ‘was’ – the son he thought he knew but never knew the truth.”

      I hope that knowing that is of some comfort to you.

      If we believe God is love, if we believe that God doesn’t make mistakes, if we believe God creates each person as a unique individual, then it stands to reason that each of us is the person that God envisioned when it delighted God to create us.

      Now, things like chronic illness, mental illness, stuff like that is a result of sin in the world, I believe. But our core identity, the truest of truth about ourselves, that is God-created and the closer we come to God, the more we get to know God, love and live as Jesus, then we more and more realize within ourselves God’s our own unique identity hidden in Christ. That is the most basic definition of vocation, becoming the person God calls us to be,

  5. Ellis, your story was hard to read. I am so happy you realized that you should be happy and proud of who you are.

    I don’t understand why, in this life, anyone should ever have to question their own worth especially from a parent. We see it every day, rejection, abuse, indifference, and so many other things. That is a failure of humankind on so many levels.

  6. Well said and lovingly offered John P.

    I think one of the reasons liberal Christians go out of our way to be welcoming, loving, and inclusive of the LGBTQ community is that we see the pain that not being welcomed into the love of Christ has caused. We see the power of love and the power of treating everyone as a blessed Child of God because it is real.

    Being liberal, we know only a tiny fraction of the pain caused when anyone tells you that you are not ‘in the club’ that God wanted for his children and maybe that has helped us see how wrong such a mentality is.

    I have long pondered what makes a mind go towards exclusion, inequality and punishment when they read the Bible and I have yet to see how that message is in the Bible I read. I readily see how the Bible leads us toward love, equality and welcome. It just does not seem hard.

    I think that it is just like so much else in this world, people want their bias confirmed. You can pull verses out of the Bible, history and religious doctrine to say that slavery is okay, that segregation is God’s will, that homosexuals are an abomination, that those who dare question the “rulers” are blaspheming, that women have a prescribed place, that children should be whipped, that concubines are acceptable, that people have babies in their very old age, that you can live in the belly of a whale, that polar bears and penguins were on the ark…and at some point, you need to see how ridiculous such a pursuit is.

    I too wish peace for my LGBTQ friends and family, because you are special in all your uniqueness and you need to know that the problem is ours, not yours.

  7. This is beautiful. It is something all children, of whatever age, and there is a child in all of us, need to hear, regardless of who they love. I am not LGBTQ but I do know the feeling of a parent not loving you. My mother for whatever reason never was able to love me. My siblings were loved. She died and we never did have that reconciliation. That’s ok though, I feel that it was her problem, not me. I would tell anyone who finds themselves in that spot to let it go, it is something missing in the parent not the child. I have come to the place where I feel sorry for her, she missed knowing me as a mother, she missed knowing my children and that is a lot. So I say, Amen, John, you made a lot of us feel better. Peace and Love,

    • I had similar also Kathleen, although I do know a lot about why I wasn’t loved by my parents. It took many years figuring out, all the many clues were always there the whole times though. I still say that I just can’t believe that it took me 58 years to finally cut away from them for good, they really are still very toxic and I will never have my children or my grandchildren, my husband and me anywhere near them anymore. I am 66 now. Now, if by any chance that my father will get a paternity test of my sisters and me, which no doubt, I definitely am his daughter, though the other sisters may be a big surprise however. He’s not going to do that and he’s nearly 100 now. It was my mother who is the one who created the whole thing about me in the first place. I forgave them a long time ago, from afar, and to find the best way so that I chose not to hate them, and to try to love them, the best I could come up with so far is that my parents both had some awful lives themselves, so at some ages they were still young and innocent.

      Gosh, this post has been one of the hardest one I have ever had in my life, but I will forge forward. One of the many reasons that I read John Pavlovitz’s blog is because I look for what I call them “bright lights” which show up in their comments. One of such of them was one that your grandfather said about how huge God is, and it was nearly identical what God told me about how so very large, so huge that our human minds wouldn’t be able to fathom just how huge God really is. The only thing that was different was when I was capable to see something very large that got much, much, much larger, I still could understand, and then I was told that what I saw was “not even as large as a speck of dust.” Anyway, since what your grandfather said to you, I do believe that God directly told your grandfather the same message that I got from God also. 🙂 I was going to write some more about that the day before Fathers Day I realized that God and His/Her Crew are the ones who raised me and protected me a lot, coming from many. Testing me, giving me lessons, giving me safe havens, even last seconds left to protect me, and doing that very fast. I am still finding more and more that I hadn’t remember for a long time, the memories are all coming out now.

      I believe what was going on also right before Fathers Day was being done to get me out of my numb and wounded mode. This is often how it is done, if I pay attention, various things mostly showed up in my facebook newsfeed this time, can be many other ways also to lead me to something. These particular ones were bringing up and leading me to remember (not forgotten, just hadn’t thought about it for some years), to remember my encounter with Mother Mary. I went through the memory of it, it was really awesome, but here comes another reminder to me. This time it was the Beatles song, Let It Be. Underneath was written that when Paul McCartneys mother died, he was so heart-broken, Mother Mary came to him, and the message she gave to him was Let It Be. That was when I realized, I get it, what was the message(s) that she gave to me. I got the lyrics, to make sure that was the message that McCartney got, then I went over the memory again to find what exactly was the message given to me. There were minor ones, I was 8 years old and tiny, and I found myself sitting on her lap, and she looked at me like she adored me. I know my jabbering at the time, I told her “. . .but, I am not Catholic!”. I told her about the Christmas manger plays, that I was always an angel, but I couldn’t be Mother Mary because I was told that Mary is always blonde, and my hair is very dark. She cuddled me closer to her. I also told her that the Catholic neighbors didn’t seem that they liked children who are not Catholic, and I was pretty sure that they hate me. Cuddled me even closer and stroking my hair on my head. Well, I guess the main messages to me were that I am a very strong and brave little girl, and also no matter what happens if it is bad, it will only happen for a very short time, and that I will be fine before long. So, except the descriptions about her and where we were at, these must be the messages for me to get out of where I still am. I already have been getting memories and realizing, wow, I really was very strong and brave! Still working all on this right now, so, here is where I am right now. I do have to get rid of this phrase about myself. 🙂

  8. After reading all these stories about “distant fathers” above and fathers who were unable to utter the words “I love you,” which was the case with my own father, I think we need to ask a question here. Most who post here are elderly people, and I think we need to as a question:

    “Why were so many of our fathers this way?”

    It is not just here on the John P. blog. I have heard these complaints from our generation of Baby Boomers far too often over the years to think that just a small number of children experienced this. The numbers are clearly huge, and whatever the cause, it seems to have afflicted a whole generation of fathers across the entire United States. This interests me as an anthropologist. The only big thing I see here is that our moms and dads were often the grandchildren of men who fought in the American Civil War—or experienced its crushing aftermath down south in the decades after the American Civil War—but in truth—I doubt that old war had anything to do with this “Withdrawn Father Syndrome.” So, if not that, what was the key influence that drove so very many fathers into being like this. What was the terror and risk in a father saying a simple “I Love You” to a child and really meaning it? I would like to hear from all of you, including Christopher and Leslie—you too Joe.

    • Charles, I don’t know if it is important to your inquiry, but 3 of my grandparents were immigrants. 2 from Portugal, 1 from Germany. So there was no connection to the Civil War.

    • I am older than the baby boomers but here is my experience. I won’t describe my dad, he was a hugger, at least with me so my experience is a tad different. Also came out of a divorced home which was very uncommon in those days. So my experience was with my mother and I already spoke of that earlier. My husband and his father are the one’s that best show what you spoke of. My father in law was a wonderful man but he never told his son he loved him growing up. Then when my husband had his boys he modeled himself after his father. I would tell him hug them, it feels wonderful. By the way, I am a hugger. When our sons were grown they decided together that they would not carry on the family tradition. One day when all of us were visiting our younger son at college, we were leaving and my boys, as was the custom, because mom would have it no other way, hugged me and then turned to their dad, who had put his hand out to shake and they instead hugged him and told him they loved him. Needless to say this stunned this lovely man. Long story short, my husband decided that if his boys could do that, he would with his own father. He did, and when my father-in-law passed away they were very comfortable with the “I love you’s” and “Hugs”. My sons and grandsons are also very comfortable with them also. No one leaves or hangs up without them. I would bet that my husband’s father modeled his behavior from his father. So things can change, sometimes. Did not work with my mother but stellar success with others. Perhaps it is what is inside, you can unlock it if it’s there, futile if it isn’t. Not sure any of this makes any sense, but since I am not a morning person, there is that. Peace and Love,

  9. Charles,

    I can tell you that my father was raised on a small farm with 5 brothers and 6 sisters. All the girls were born first. As the girls grew old enough they were shipped out to clean or cook for others. My grandfather would then go around and collect the money the girls earned. The boys worked their small farm and for other neighboring ones. My father never had much to say about his father. He did talk about his mom. The boys had to sleep in the tank house. In the winter she would put heated pans in their beds to keep them warm. That was his favorite memory.

    My mother and 3 of her sisters and the 1 brother all had to quit school after 8th grade to work in the fields to cut apricots.

    My parents never told me they loved me. As an adult I started saying I love you after every goodbye. From then on they never failed to respond with an I love you. So I always say they loved me as much as they could.

    I just don’t think they heard the words very often growing up if at all. Children were just sometimes meant to help support the family

    I know that each of my sons’ friends who were in the LGBTQ community were loved and cherished by their families. So many things have changed from a generation who pretended there was no such thing to a generation where there are parents whose love is unconditional. We just have so much further to go.

    My daughter-in-law’s man-of-honor for her at their wedding is a black male who grew up as a Jehovah Witness. He was loved and cherished. He got interested in politics and worked for Representative Jerry McNerney. He now runs the Community LGBTQ Center in our city. He helped establish the center. I am proud to have known him since he was just another teenager in our home.

  10. My 2¢ on the subject of distant fathers is that 1) that is how they were raised and it has a very distinct Biblical component and 2) they were never expected to BE the nurturer, just the “bread winner” for most of the centuries man has existed.

    The fathers went off to work, business or war and the mothers stayed home and took care of the home fires. It was very radical for a long time to have a loving, supportive, interactive father.

    When that mold was finally broken, by the privations of War and Rosie the Riveter (IMHO), I think people came to value the co-parenting notion and fathers were more involved. I have heard older women say their husbands never changed a diaper…

    Once fathers became more involved, it was not all fathers and it was not all at once. Many still felt, and the church reaffirmed, their role as disciplinarian, bread winner and Godly leader not nurturer or emotional support. This is still a relatively new concept.

    Now, add in the Bible Belt Christian aversion to the LGBTQ community, the teenage pregnancy issue, the failed child embarrassment and you can see the pressure put on a father. Many gay boys were just “Mama’s boys” to the community. There was no effort in the community or the church to understand differences so why would there be at home? Even fathers who did love and support, knew they had to keep it on the down-low.

    I think we need to look back to the Civil Rights Era and see not only how far we have come from the angry mobs not allowing black children into their schools but appreciate that a new era of equality opened the doors for LGBTQ equality too and the progress is ongoing.

    That does not mitigate or erase a single second of rejection, pain, humiliation, confusion or bitterness of childhood for millions in the LGBTQ community but it does mean that fewer and fewer children will have that same experience. And much of that credit goes to the LGBTQ adults who step up and speak out. (“It gets better!”)

    So hats off and mad respect to Dad’s who learn to love fully and openly support the uniqueness of their children.

    • That is my take also on distant fathers. One can hope that when they know better they will do better, as my husband and my sons.

    • Ronald, you bore me. Your warning is worn and your bigotry, stale. There is no light or life in your words.

      I think God would say to all seeking, “let’s sit and talk a while”. I think he would ask “what’s really between us?” I’m certain those aren’t third-party questions. I’m certain that wouldn’t be a group discussion.

      Those discussions I have with Him are nice because, you know, your voice, and all those voices like yours over all these years, become so small and far away. Your hate doesn’t matter anymore, it’s insignificant compared to His magnificence and brilliance.

      “Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.”
      Revelation 3:19, 20

      His arms stretch wide. Yours are folded.

      • Susan, in other words, Truth is now “hate” speech in the 21st century. And more than likely, you’re also gay.

        The problem is however, your words of resentment does nothing, absolutely stunningly nothing to do with the truth of God’s Word.

          • And, here’s the thing, Ronald, no one made you come and read this and if you dislike it so intensely it might be because you are exactly the sort of person who most needs to read it.

            If you really dislike it, go away because you will fail to influence anyone with your homophobia.

          • Yes, Susan, and by the only One with the authority to correct: the Holy Spirit. No human being has that authority.

        • Hey Ronald, Arnold, Frank et al, the truth of your own hate is all you have brought forth.

          I get it that your own bigotry is fed by believing that God has condemned people you don’t like but your ignorance in claiming God would create people wrong is sad and anathema to what God is.

          Sure, you go on and bet your hate filled soul that the translators, editors and transcribers of the Bible as you know it made no mistakes, left nothing out and meant what you haters interpret.

          The sane among us, who see that sin was not ranked, that God could easily have been talking about unbridled promiscuity, unnatural for the person, even forced or coerced sexual activity not merely condemning people God created and loved will bet our souls on love being the correct answer to every question.

          That is why conservative, or cruel, vulgar voices like yours are allowed here. We may not like you, we do not believe you and we will not respect you, but God wants us to love you and allow your hate to be heard.

          You know the sin Jesus did talk about? And talk about most sternly? Divorce. Ever made a hateful condemnation of the divorced? What about all the other “abominations” and sins worth being stoned over? You are a sick, twisted, fraud!

        • Dear Ronald:

          Did Susan say that? Honestly — did she say that?

          What I got from Susan’s post was her belief that God would say, ‘let’s sit and talk a while’ and that God’s arms stretch wide open to embrace whereas yours don’t.

          So where did you come up with your ‘in other words’ statement? Susan said what Susan said. You might have stayed with that. But you didn’t.

          Blessings!

      • Susan, I am reminded of something one of the Niebuhrs originally said, “It is only on the cross that a man dies with his arms outstretched.” It’s been quoted a lot and without attribution which riles my inner academic but it has always invoked within my mind the image of Jesus dying with his arms outstretched to embrace everyone who ever was, was then, is now, or will be.

        God is love. God loves all human beings. I must imitate Christ.

    • Clearly, Ronald, you missed the point of the essay.

      Whenever I am confronted with homophobia, I wonder which of the following applies:

      1) Is the homophobic man afraid of being raped by a gay man even though there is no evidence that gay men go around raping straight men.

      If this is the case, it is difficult for me to garner any sympathy as we women are afraid of being raped since we are about twelve and in all of the millennia of human existence, heterosexual men have yet to cease to rape women.

      2) How deep in the closet is the homophobe? How terrified is he to admit he is gay?

      Let the light of God’s truth about you pierce the darkness that binds you and allow it to set you free.

      If we believe God doesn’t make mistakes and that God it is love and that God made humanity in God’s image, then it stands to reason that if God created someone to be homosexual, then it must have been because it delighted God to do so.

      God is love and God wants us to love our neighbors for the person it delighted God to create. We are to love all as ourselves exactly as God first loved us. When Jesus commands us to love this way, He does not have a list of exceptions, footnotes, or a list of appendices to justify denying love to someone. He commands us to love all.

      • Gloria, yours is more gay retort, and nothing else. If I’ve heard this response once, I’ve heard the exact wording: ” you must be closet gay”, “you need to come out”, ” you are a homophobic person”, a million times.

        It is all stupid​. Now, since you inquired, I will tell you that I am a flaming HETEROSEXUAL MAN who is very well pleased with a WOMAN’S VAGINA! Any other inquiries?

        • Ronald, my name is Gloriamarie, not Gloria, Please do not shorten it.

          Perhaps you are bisexual and terrified of your sexual attraction to men?

          • Gloria, as I stated very clearly: I am a flaming HETEROSEXUAL MAN who is very well pleased with the WOMAN’S VAGINA! I would never ever put my Penis inside another man’s rectum, nor will that ever happen to me, so that leaves us back to square one: I am a flaming HETEROSEXUAL MAN who is very well pleased with a WOMAN’S VAGINA!

            DID THAT HELP YOU?

            • #1, Arnold, you ignored a politely expressed request to respect my name.

              #2) Methinks thou doth protest too much.

              • Gloria, and you ignored my very polite declaration of my heterosexuality by stating that I was bisexual, so it appears that were even when it comes to respecting names and sexual orientation.

                Thank you!

                • Arnie, homophobia does not deserve any respect. But since you are very likely Joe, we already know far more about your prejudices than we want.

            • Dear Arnold:

              Some make the case that flaming is what the prohibition against lust forbids.

              I’ve never met a fundie but what s/he’d be regarded as a compromising apostate by some other fundie.

              Blessings!

            • Elene, because Frank has difficulty keeping his entities used in order. It is a low tactic practiced by several conservatives here.

            • Because they are the same person, Elene, we call him “he of many aliases” or Joe for short. Sometimes he can’t keep his many disguises straight.

            • Dear Elene Gusch:

              Come on — at least try to have a sense of humor!

              See how many guys names can you make by juggling the letters R-O-N-A-L-D?

              😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

              Blessings!

  11. Well, I am not gay either, and I am glad that I am not gay, and for sure I hate no one, but love all people. That doesn’t mean I agree with all lifestyles​, just as Our Heavenly Father doesn’t want us engaging in behavior that is harmful to us!

    • Which lifestyles do you not agree with? I personally don’t favour lifestyles that are entirely focussed on growing one’s bank account. I don’t appreciate a lifestyle that sees perpetual anger and hatred as the only acceptable emotions. I despise lifestyles of dominance and violence directed towards those deemed to be different.

  12. Jesus never said a word about homosexuality, but there was one time recorded where he could have. I always wondered why the centurion was so distraught over his servant or slave’s illness. Someone told me that the word could also be translated as young male lover, in which case the man’s worry makes more sense. Liturgies today still include a version of his words to Jesus: “Lord, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof. Speak but the word and my shall be healed.” Jesus’s only comment was to praise the man for his faith, the likes of which he had not found in Israel. And he healed the young man. He could have taken the opportunity to make it clear that he wasn’t having anything to do with THOSE people, but he didn’t.

    • Mary, Jesus didn’t have say a word about homosexuality, cause it was not necessary, as the Law of Moses condemned the practice.

      But Jesus surely upheld the Law Of Moses, and clearly affirmed marriage as a union between one man and one woman, and you find that in Matthew 19:4-6.

      Furthermore, the story that you cite about the Centurion is not and has never been about a gay lover. That is what is called “Gay revision” theology in an effort to normalize the perversion of homosexuality.

      Since you brought it up, Jesus never said one word about child molestation, raping women, bestiality, wife beating, etc.

      None of us would intimate that because Jesus never said anything about these sinful behavior, that that would mean that He condones or approves of such behavior. Sorry, but Gay revision is not a theological sound arg

      • Have you ever heard of the Book of Galatians? It’s in the Bible.

        1) The Old Testament law was given to the Jews ONLY as part of God’s covenant with them and them alone—not gentiles like you. The Old Testament law never applied to you and still does not if you are a gentile.

        2) What part of Romans 10:4 and Galatians do you not understand? Re-institution of Old Testament law within Christianity is one of the oldest heresies the early church fought against. Yet, Christian fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals pervert II Timothy 3:16 as their pivot excuse to fully achieve that heresy in their own churches. Feel free to visit at my blog at the following safe link:

        https://faith17983.wordpress.com/

  13. Mary wrote “And he healed the young man. He could have taken the opportunity to make it clear that he wasn’t having anything to do with THOSE people, but he didn’t.”

    Says it all right there, doesn’t it? If Jesus could love gay men,so can anyone.

  14. Folks, we cannot change a stone cold heart or a mind that is closed to reality, science, history, and the love of God. God told us that too. Wipe the dust off our feet and move on.

  15. This saga is very interesting and sad, too. As I read many of the postings, it is evident that everyone comes with their own views and agenda.

    I’ve learned that to get respect, one must stand ready to give the same without measure.

    I paid attention to “Gloriamarie​” and “Arnold” back and forth, and it took me back to my middle school years.

    The simple truth is both persons did not show respect to the other. Arnold says he’s fully into women, Gloriamarie says he must be either gay or at a minimum, bisexual.

    That is as silly and juvenile as it comes. Wouldn’t it have been better had one showed respect by addressing the other by their requested name? And why must a man be gay or Bi because he doesn’t agree with or advocate for the gay life? Neither position wins.

    Come on folks, aren’t we better than that, for people that name the name of Christ?

    Have A Wonderful Evening!

    • Camille wrote “Come on folks, aren’t we better than that, for people that name the name of Christ?”

      You overlook the really serious issue that this is an example of yet another man failing to respect the boundaries and limits set by a woman. I said “no, don’t” and he continued to do it. I asked him to address me by his actual name and he did not.

      Interesting though that of out all the conversations, you select this one. I suspect you are someone we know very well posting under a pseudonym.

      As for his degree of homophobia, there is a great deal of evidence out there that homophobic men are in the closet.

      Homophobes Might Be Hidden Homosexuals
      A new analysis of implicit bias and explicit sexual orientation statements may help to explain the underpinnings of anti-gay bullying and hate crimes
      https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/

      • No data or any other pyscho babble can make a heterosexual man gay, closet gay, Bi, or any other title gays wants to give him because he doesn’t agree with homosexuality anymore than it makes an old woman a dyke because she hasn’t had sex with a man in several decades.

        • You’ve got it backwards. “Data” and “psycho babble” (more correctly spelt “psychobabble”) do not change someone’s orientation. They report on scientific research that observes that men who are afraid of the fact that they have same sex urges and longings display vehemently heterosexual behaviour often coupled with antigay pronouncements.*

          You also make a false equivalancy between a sexual orientation (rudely expressed as “dyke”) and a sexual behaviour (abstinence).

          * It should be noted that this behaviour would be entirely unnecessary if being gay didn’t mean being treated as a pariah, shunned, bullied, assaulted, and/or murdered (and in some countries arrested and executed), and if the fact of your existence wasn’t always in public debate as to whether or not you deserve basic human rights.

            • Thank you very much for your elucidating argument. I know that if you disagree with what I wrote, I am on the right track.

            • Camille McGee, when people use the vocabulary you choose and label something informative as “hogwash”, then I can only conclude that you have no actual evidence or facts to back up your statements.

              There are peer-reviewed studies that conclude that homophobic people are actually gay.

              Since you are clearly homophobic, please come out of the closet and allow the light of God to pierce the darkness in which you have been hiding and allow that light to set you free. It delighted God to create you as God desired so it would please God were you to accept the gift you were given.

        • Camille McGee, I really have no idea what you are trying to say.

          People are created by God to be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual. The article I cite above indicates that homophobic people are more than likely to be deep in the closet.

          • People are created to be Heterosexual not Homosexual. That is why we’re male and female, given corresponding and complementary body parts and reproductive organs, and that’s why everyone comes to the world from the seed/egg biological function.

            • Sorry, science doesn’t agree with you. Sexual preference is formed while in utero, so it’s kinda hard to deny it’s God’s choice.

              This article sums up the research, should you care to read it.

              • Science very much agrees with me, and that’s why you will never see a man delivering a new born out of his rear end!

                • The only part of the nonsense you wrote that was marginally correct was that a seed and an egg are needed, although even there you fell short. We come from the joining of a sperm and an ovum.

                  No one has ever suggested that a man could deliver a baby from his rectum. Going for shock and disgust does not bolster your exceptionally weak argument.

                  • Patricia, nice try but you fail. It takes sperm and a egg, a male and a female to procreate.

                    God, in His wisdom knew what He was doing when He created us, and the process of procreation does not include members of the same gender.

                    Scientifically and biologically speaking, we understand the purpose of why sperm is designed to swim through the fallopian tubes of a woman to attached themselves to the egg.

                    There is no such scientifical and biological purpose for sperm to swim in Feces!

                    • For your first paragraph, I actually agreed with your described method of conception. All I did was correct your terminology. Now you have it half correct, so at least that’s a step in the right direction. The sperm does not meet an egg, it meets an egg cell which is called an ovum when you are referring to human reproduction. In case you need it, the plural is ova.

                      I also did not disagree that it takes genetic material from both a male and a female to procreate.

                      How insecure must a person be to insult someone else for agreeing with them?

                      As for biological purpose, conception is not the only driving force. Study after study has shown that the naturally-occurring variant of homosexuality improves the survival of the tribe. If it didn’t, it would have been bred out millenia ago.

                      You can choose to follow the science, or you can choose to stay uninformed. If you go with the latter, your opinion will have no weight and it is entirely likely that people will insult you for your foolishness.

                    • It may take a sperm and an egg, but it doesn’t require a man or a woman. Or have you missed the information that in vitro fertilization has been possible for some fifty years?

                      It’s a great pity that your convictions do not force you to post in lady-like terms.

                    • I have to interject here. After following this thread regarding sex education to a dolt… I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. You can’t explain something to a rock. I can speak about homosexuality. I can also, with much repentance, speak about sex. The truth, anybody can have sex with anything using any orifice. But being gay is a heart matter, not a sex issue. It truly has so little to do with genitalia. I am so sick of hearing sex discussion. I’m sick of trying to explain to a bigoted heterosexual about love when that really should entail no explanation at all. Sadly, I suppose there are some who’ve missed out on it.

                    • Patricia, Gloriamarie- I give y’all kudos for tryin’- but I’m afraid a few tools are missin’ from that shed.

                    • Susan wrote, “Patricia, Gloriamarie- I give y’all kudos for tryin’- but I’m afraid a few tools are missin’ from that shed.”

                      We do our humble best. We can take a horse to water but not be able to make it drink no matter how much it needs water. We can provide scientific evidence but are unable to get people to leave the Dark Ages, no matter how much they need to.

                • Camille, birthing a child has nothing whatsoever to do with sexual orientation being formed in the womb.

                  Women can be impregnated with the use of a man, it happens every day.

                  Science does indeed tell us that sexual preference is formed while in utero, but if you prefer to remain willfully misinformed, that is your choice. While I respect your right to choose, I don’t have to respect what you choose and I can never respect choosing to remain ignorant.

                  Prenatal endocrine influences on sexual orientation and on sexually differentiated childhood behavior

                  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296090/

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