No, My Diversity Doesn’t Have to Tolerate Your Bigotry

Some days I think people choose to miss the point.   

In the weeks following the election, those of us opposing the coming Administration and protesting what we see as very problematic Cabinet appointments and flag-raising political maneuvering, have received a similar scolding from Conservatives as we engage in debate on the issues. It’s an attempt to call us out for our alleged hypocrisy:

“I see, you’re all for diversity unless someone disagrees with you! Apparently we don’t get included in that! You Liberals are so tolerant!” they say.

Well, they’re partially right. 

The commitment to diversity and equality means demanding that everyone gets a seat at the table; that each person’s inherent worth is recognized there, that no one is devalued or excluded based on a fixed and fundamental part of their identity: skin color, gender, nation of origin, sexual orientation, religion, etc.

This means that we declare every human being equally valuable. It does not mean we treat all behavior or all opinions equally:

If your opinion directly endangers people based on those essential parts of who they are—we’ll pushback.
If your worldview permits you to treat someone as less deserving of civil rights or it discards their basic humanity—your worldview is a threat to true diversity.
If your evaluation of another makes you more tolerant of their mistreatment or less outraged by hate crimes against them, that’s a fundamental problem.

Active discrimination and violence don’t get a seat at the table. They don’t get proximity to do further damage to people.

For example, a gay teenager and a Baptist preacher are both invited into genuine community and both welcomed into conversation, but if the preacher insists on the inherent depravity of the teenager, if he or she cannot see the teenager as fully equal to them in the eyes of God or the Law, this is a barrier to diverse community and an assault on the teenager’s very identity. The teenager’s place at the table is terribly altered by the preacher, not the other way around.

Diversity will always err on the side of the marginalized and always be an inconvenience to the privileged because diversity seeks justice. It demands benevolence for those who are not experiencing it.

The contention for the past year has been that all political perspectives are valid, but I won’t consent to that and it’s a matter of personal safety. No individual groups of people are explicitly, measurably endangered by a Progressive platform, they receive the same consideration. But I can illustrate the specific ways people of color, immigrants, Muslims, women, and the LGBTQ community are less safe and less represented by this Administration, which is already by its conduct, a movement of exclusion. 

Friend, I can respect you and seek to understand you, while declaring your actions or those of politicians you support, completely reprehensible. I can criticize your conduct or the results of your behavior without attacking your worth. That’s how this works.

If you believe people of color are simply inferior to white people, you’re going to have to work hard to stay at the table.
If you believe LGBTQ people to be abominations in the eyes of the God you worship, you’re not coming to the table in peace.
If you believe Muslims are likely terrorists, you probably won’t feel welcome at the table for long.

And so no, it isn’t at all hypocritical to champion diversity and to confront injustice simultaneously. They are fully collaborative and integrated movements.

Embracing diversity does not mean tolerating active bigotry or violence against people. The table is bigger, not because you can say or do any horrible thing you want to, it’s bigger because each person’s inherent worth is protected there—especially those usually marginalized.

All people are welcomed at the table but bigotry isn’t, so save the allegation that its acceptance is a requirement for me.

Equality demands decency toward humanity’s diverse gathering—and it’s what I demand.

Order John’s book, ‘A Bigger Table’ here.








640 thoughts on “No, My Diversity Doesn’t Have to Tolerate Your Bigotry

      • Joe C. I have a problem with your comment. The Catholic church does not treat all equally and does not have an open table at all. There are many people your church rejects and refuses to share communion with. Your comment is a pretense only.

          • I spent first through fourth grades in a Roman Catholic private school. We were taught that the only people who were Christians and who were going to Heaven were Roman Catholics. Everyone else was damned. No one else believed in God.

            The summer between fourth and fifth grades my parents bought a house and I was told I would be going to the public school. I was terrified because I was going to be associating with the damned.

            On the very first day of fifth grade I had a crisis of faith because how did the school day start? One of the kids stood up in front of the classroom and read five verses from the Psalms. In four years of school at a RC private school, we never once read from the Bible.

            In my public school there were Jews who believed in God, Methodists who believed in God, Presbyterians who believed in God, black people who believed in God, Asians who believed in God…

            That was the beginning of my leave-taking from the Roman Catholic Church because those lay teachers, nuns, and priests had lied to me.

            • You only betray how young you are by your ignorance of what the RCC taught before Vatican Two. I was also taught that the Jews killed Jesus. The Good Friday service was intensely anti-Semitic.

              You have called me a liar a number of times and since I am telling the truth, you bear false witness against me and you yourself are the liar.

              Just because my experience of the RCC was different than your post-Vat2 experience does not make me a liar.

              How old are you, anyway? Because your thought processes indicate that you are about ten years old.

              • Catholic Joe,

                Gloriamarie’s understanding of RCC history is correct and it is well known;

                “FOUR decades ago, Roman Catholics were hit over the head by revisions of church teaching and practice authorized by the world’s bishops at the Second Vatican Council. If the language of the Mass, prohibition of meat on Friday and, most striking, the church’s unrelenting contrast between its truths and the errors of every other religion could be altered, what couldn’t be? Doctrine on contraception? Divorce and remarriage? Capital punishment? Same-sex relationships? Ordination of women?

                If religions are alive, as Catholicism surely is, they change. But while some changes may reflect a justifiable, even necessary, adaptation to new knowledge or circumstances, others may be a trimming of religious truth. How do you tell the difference? It is a question brought into sharp focus again with the death of Pope John Paul II and the election of Benedict XVI.”


            • Obviously you are a lot younger than me. We certainly were told never to attend another church. It was breaking the 1st Commandment and was a mortal sin. Later in 1982 when I called the church to inquire about getting an annulment through the church they told me I would need to sign a paper that stated I knew going into the marriage it was not a good Catholic marriage. To me the church was telling me to lie so I could be remarried in the church. Why would anyone accept the Sacrament of Matrimony and think it wasn’t in good faith a Catholic marriage. A justice of the peace performed our ceremony. I was no longer welcomed at the table.

            • For the most part, RCC members and officials took that to mean people who had not heard of the Christian church at all. Basically, if you were merely a Protestant who didn’t believe the RCC was right about everything, you were damned because you should have known better. If you were some native from deepest Africa, or maybe one of the Chinese heathens, you might make it into heaven if a missionary had never managed to get to you at all. If you’d once been told and not believed it, you didn’t have a chance.
              (Not to be too hard on the RCC, this was essentially the belief of many, if not most, fundamentalists, too, except that they would have told you the RCC wasn’t Christian.)

              Joe, I see you talking about what you’ve read, but the fact is, people here have dealt with things as they actually were, not with the theoretical stuff, which seems to be all you know about.

            • We reject no one. All are welcome in the church. That doesnt mean that Jesus condones ANY sin. That includes, fornicators of any kind, thieves, rapists, liars, murderers , adulterers, etc…. No one gets treated differently. We are all equal in Gods eyes. No one is encouraged to take communion when they are in mortal sin. It is a grave offense to do so. The problem is that people of “diversity”, (nice try) want special treatment. They want what they want no matter no matter what and dont care who is effected by it. It is always charitable to ruin a persons business and destroy thier lively hoods all in the name of equality. Exactly when does our Constitutinally protected right come in? Live your lives, do as you please. But its not about that for you is it? Its not enough. You must force everyone to think and believe as you do or you wont be happy. We must denounce our faith in Gods word and follow in line with sin. It is incredibly disingenuous to insinuate that all of a sudden after 2000 years of living the word of Jesus that we should change our whole reason for being Christian. You are treated no less equal than all of us in the eyes of the Lord, so please knock it off. We all have our burdens to bear.

          • “You must be at least 60 so 4th grade was 50 years ago and your memory might not be clear or might be affected by your prejudice against Catholicism.”

            #1) Do you have any idea how insulting this is?

            #2) Any prejudice I have against Catholicism exists solely in you mind. However the bigotry you display toward non-RCs is exactly what they tried and failed to teach me.

          • Joe,
            For your information that is exactly what I was taught by the Catholic Church. We were the only ones going to heaven as all other religions were false. If we dared to attend or read any literature from another faith we had committed a grave sin and had to ask for forgiveness. You had to get special permission to do so without it becoming a serious sin.
            Also, mass was said mostly in Latin and very little of it was in English.
            To suggest someone’s memory is bad because what they are saying is not true according to you shows an ignorance I didn’t think you had!
            Any kind of bible study was a lecture as only what they were teaching you was true and you did not question. I don’t ever remember them teaching directly from scripture but only from what they had interpreted and we were not encouraged in anyway to read scripture on our own. We sure didn’t have a discussion on it!

            Your condescending attitude is disgusting to say the least!

            Since you seem to know all there is to know you can look up examples to verify it yourself. After all, anyone that experienced that kind of Catholicism has to be senile and none of our examples would be believable anyway!

            I made the mistake of thinking you were sincerely trying to be a good Christian but I have changed my mind on that! Your superior disdainful attitude towards others shows why you voted the way you did and that it does not matter what anyone else says unless they totally agree with you as you already know the whole truth!

            • I really don’t know why I’m bothering with this, since I know your mind is closed to anything outside of your own prideful opinions, but it’s obvious that the only thing you know or are willing to look at is written words you can cherry-pick to back up your uninformed bias.
              The fact is, it was common practice, regardless of how you might be misinterpreting that catechism, for RCC members to be taught, both outright and by implication, that theirs was the only true Christian church. My RCC friends were not allowed to go to Sunday service with me, as it would be a sin for them to attend a non-RCC worship service.

              Regardless of what it says in print, it played out quite differently in real life.

              Seriously, if the only thing you’re going to accept is those words on paper, maybe you should see what they say about referring to Jewish children as Christ-killers and suggesting they be punished for that.

        • Joe, I believe you to be a handsome, intelligent, well-spoken man who knows exactly what he is doing. You seem to want to be seen as the sometimes cruel condescending zealot Catholic poster boy on a Catholic recruitment poster. What I don’t know is why. I do not question your faith or your humanity.

        • “Reception of Holy Communion is for the faithful who believe everything the Catholic Church teaches as well as for those Catholics in a state of grace. Everyone is welcome to become a Catholic and receive Holy Communion. Nobody will be denied, but it’s not for casual reception by those who are not believers. You first have to join the club and agree to adhere to the rules. If you don’t like the rules, nobody is forcing you to join.”
          Yay for you. None of that has anything to do with the actual discussion as it’s playing out.

      • Joe, you are obviously not educated on your Christian beliefs. Jesus was the example of tolerance and non-judgemental behavior. He abhorred the hypocrisy you represent. Read the scriptures . Pastor Pavlovitz is absolutely correct.

    • Wayne and Joe- Perhaps you both should write blogs. At least it would be Christ-centered which John’s are not.

      Joe- He’ll never mention abortion except in a manner that talks down to pro-lifers as being “pro-birth” and not really “pro-life” as he did in a previous blog.

      • Joe, Wayne, and Declan: By all means, please do go write a blog and stay away from this site since all you want to do is tear John down. You would be much happier and I know I speak for the majority of readers here, so would we! Win-Win!

        • JC I think you should stay. You don’t bother me in the least. I think we can learn from each other and find common ground.

          • Interesting. I see calm, rational, grammatically-correct writing that doesn’t stoop to insult or innuendo and expresses a clear point. You see a hissy fit and don’t bother to address what it is that you disagree with.

            • I think his definition of a hissy fit is just “talking while female.” He lacks the brainpower to respond to any points made, because his own brain shorts out when presented with evidence that a woman is capable of both independent thought and possessing a uterus at the same time. See also: “She’s a witch; burn her!”

              • “I think his definition of a hissy fit is just “talking while female.” ”


                I want that on a tee shirt.

                Bless you, Dominick.

              • Thank you Dominick. I had the same thought, but as a female who still possesses her uterus (currently non functioning due to age), I rather hoped that someone presenting as male would address it. If he can’t “hear”women, there would be no point in any attempt I might make.

                • Patricia, I am sorry to say it, but I don’t think he is capable of hearing any opinion but the ones he agrees with. If he were capable of that, he would not call people names and claim they are having hissy fits. Wayne is just another sad, sorry troll.

        • I’m a Christian, and I am not insulted. If you feel insulted, maybe you should examine why you seem to have more in common with bigotry than you do with Christ’s teachings.

          • Nobody thinks that, kiddo, haha!

            You’re the one whose idea of government is wrapped up with your religious views. You want MASSIVE government that polices everything you think is yucky (but are clearly secretly obsessed with if you’re compulsively hanging out on blogs like this).

        • It’s not just John they want to tear down. It’s every single Christian who dares to disagree with their narrow definition of what’s acceptable. Joe, at least, seems to have appointed (or is that anointed) himself Defender of the Faith. Of course, Henry VIII was given that title, too.

      • I would enjoy seeing you write blogs of your own. Especially how you would deal with others who disagree with your message. My perception is that you wouldn’t be able to resist the temptation to push back, and in doing so, expose your true selves.

  1. Dear John Pavlovitz Reader:

    The studiously avoided elephant in the room is that an entire generation has arisen which has never known a time of peace.

    War changes us. War brings out the worst in us. War degrades morality and impairs judgment. Evidence of this is seen everywhere in our society.

    Of all the matters addressed on this forum, none is more critical than that there is built a massive, massive transnational movement for world peace. You know the alternative.

    • He won’t. John makes claims without providing evidence to substantiate. Pray he truly comes to know Jesus as Lord and Savior. Also, pray Ephesians 6:12 will resonate in his heart. He has a tendency to dislike conservative theology and politics.

        • The Pharisees followed laws of their own creation not the Law of Moses and were spiritually blind to the fact that He was the Messiah. That is why Jesus took exception with them and rebuked them. The issue was not that they were “conservative.”

          • I would love to see an NT quote showing where Jesus took exception to the pharisees because they didn’t see him as the Messiah. I thought that Jesus took exception to their actions, and for strictly following many of the laws of Moses.

            • You are correct Robert. See a whole speech in Matthew 23 where Jesus delivers the worst fundie blistering in human history. Fundies really hate Matthew 23, and try to avoid admitting its existence whenever possible. They also lie a lot about it, trying to push the notion that the Scribes and Pharisees were the religious “liberals” of their time. They were not. They had a whole code book they had written called the “Mishnah,” which has hundreds of extra, airtight rules designed to ensure that a person would not violate the absolute letter of the Old Testament law. It was like : “Here are the 25 extra rules you need to follow to obey this one Old Testament rule.” These are the “traditions of men” Jesus refers to in his speech. Jesus commends them for keeping the Old Testament laws by themselves, which was good and right, but Christian tradition holds that the blistering came because they failed to be loving and merciful in application of the laws to the common people. In other words, they kept the letter of the law, when the spirit of the law was the most important thing in the mind of Jesus. This drives fundies crazy because they have been raised from their earliest childhoods as strict, stern, mean-spirited legalists who think the letter of the Old Testament law—and the New Testament laws they have created for themselves—are the only important thing outside of the salvation formula. Imagine an old biddy with a Bible in her lap opened to Leviticus. She looks up at you with a scowl and hiss while she thumps her index finger hard and repeatedly against a page in the book. You got it Robert!!! Perfect.

              • I’ve asked him that in the past and he ignored me. I’ve also asked him if was part of the group of which Mel Gibson is a member. I’ve forgotten the name. He didn’t answer that either.

              • I don’t feel comfortable sharing personal details about my life with you, because I don’t trust you with them. If that should change someday I will answer those kind of questions.

                I asked because I know someone in Opus Dei and you remind me of them.

      • So what Declan? This is a free country where freedom of conscience is both respected and protected. Even God insists on freedom of conscience in the Bible. People are free to believe what they choose. You frame your statement as if everyone in the United States is a conservative nutjob pasted to some national conservative norm with which everyone is required to comply—and John P., I , and other people on this blog are dangerous outliers that must be brought into the overwhelmingly dominant conservative fold at all cost.

        Forget it. It ain’t going to happen. The only way you will ever shut us up and bring us into your fold is when the concentration camp kapos close the doors to cremate our bodies.

        Do you hear that Leslie? Do the rest of you conservatives hear that? We are not outliers. We are millions, and millions, and millions, and millions, and millions of dedicated and loyal Americans. We are a vast Christian army out here on the American landscape. I want that to sink deeply into your conservative and fundie skulls.

        Thank you for your time.

          • lolalola. there is no such thing as the ‘popular vote’. We vote by states, because our state Govt is more important than the Federal Govt. That’s why America has been so successful — by upholding the integrity of each State. Donald Trump won 30 states, Hillary won 20 states. Trump won by a 20 point margin. One could call that a Landslide.

        • Thanks!! I keep telling myself that there are more of us than them and it helps to have someone else say it. By the way, I don’t want to change them, if they don’t see the light that is their problem, I just would like that they allow me my beliefs and not get all up in my business. The government should stay out of the business of religion. I have been fighting this since the 8th grade in the 50’s when the teachers tried to dictate what version of the our father we had to say. This was public school. I refused then and I refuse now. My version is my business. Thank you.

        • Yes, call us all Nazis. Then wander off talking about how bigoted and hateful we are.

          Rule #3. SJWs always project. Always.

          • Zaklog the Deplorable, you are projecting just as vigorously. It goes both ways. And by the way you are too intelligent to settle for following in the footsteps of others- don’t use your gifts for evil.

  2. I think that John is missing smething. To claim that homosexuality and other perversions are acceptable and are NOT abominations, is itself an abomination! The Bible pull no punches concerning the barbaric behavior of homosexuality. In fact, Paul uses the following terms/description of this perversion in his Romans passage: He calls it “unnatural, against nature, shameful, degrading, an error, and that it has a penalty: The Judgment of God” (Romans 1:24-28).

    Truly loving people doesn’t mean that you embrace their soul damning lifestyles! People that desire perverted sex with members of the same gender shouldn’t have any “protection” because they want the rest of us to accept what they do as “normal”.

    In the recent election, the American people rejected that false notion in an Electoral College landslide, and if you took California and New York out of the equations, Trump would have won the population vote as well.

    I will always treat people with respect, dignity, and honor, but I will never seem as “poor people that simply can’t help that they want to have sex with members of the same gender, and you will never convince me that it is okay for men to have sex inside other mens rectums and feces, and that it is “equal” to heterosexual sexual relationship….because Almighty God says otherwise!

    • But its okay for men to have anal sex with a woman? Or its okay for a man to insist on oral sex from his wife, even though she is opposed… That she be submissive, right? I call that sexual assault. Further, you need to take Homosexuality 101. Be informed or don’t open your mouth, Wayne.

      • Apparently Wayne and others like him also feel that it is OK to support a president who claims it is OK to grab women by the p***y, who has been reported to have sexually assaulted at least 12 women, who was being investigated for child rape until someone threatened his victim, and who is now reported to have indulged in perverse activities in Russia? (Interestingly, the former British intelligence officer who made this report is now also going into hiding–wonder if he’s been threatened too?) Your “morals” are apparently very flexible, “Anonymous”!

        • Stacy, are you directing that at me? Did I say I supported Trump? Back up, please. My “morals” are not “flexible”. The Waynes and Donalds (and their justifications) of this world are perverse. They spew hatred for “others”. I am LGBTQ. And I am a Christian. I choose to live a Christ-directed life and not pursue an earthly, human-directed commitment. However, I actively defend my LGBTQ brothers and sisters, because of blatant persecution by the uninformed likes of Wayne AND Trump. Its pitiful, this continued oppressive condemnation and judgment. Its sickening, this double standard by a male dominated hetero society that believes they have the right to do whatever, whenever but call out others they have no understanding of and don’t care to understand. Good day-

        • It will be interesting to find out whether that 35-page document supplied by the former MI-6 agent contains truth or just made up stuff. The part about Trump renting the penthouse in a fancy Moscow motel and hiring a whole group of beautiful Russian prostitutes to come over and give him a “Yellow Rain” shower was fascinating. For those of you who might not know, yellow rain is pee.

          • I really DID NOT need to know that, Charles. I can be persuaded to think various despicable things are despicably true of the walking cheeto, but I draw the line at believing that. There has to be actual evidence, not merely rumor, before I’ll believe that.

            Please note that the conservatives here never paid that courtesy to Hillary. I’m getting dizzy I am up here so high. Oh, how I wish there was an emoticon for laughing my head off at myself.

            • Have you read that 35-page document? I read it last night. My only question is whether it is reality or fantasy. I guess the NSA, CIA, and FBI will have to figure that out.

              • No <<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>

                I haven’t read it, nor do I intend to read it. I intend to ignore the allegations until they are proven and unless the results invalidate the election.

                I think the important issue is: did Russia hack the election process? Did they somehow interfere and cause Trump to be elected. If so, then is the election invalidated? If it is, what happens next?

                I also think the inauguration should be postponed until the results of the investigation are known.

          • Wow! Spreading completely baseless slanders, Charlie? How very Christian of you. If I talked like you do, this is the point where I’d say you’re well on your way to Hell. I don’t think this is necessarily so, but I’d just like to point out the standards you’ve set, Chuck.

        • Stacy, Donald Trump is all talk, but homosexual men are dying at a much earlier age than their heterosexual counterparts per data from the CDC. The lifestyle of gay people is atrocious and must be rejected and repented of because judgment is coming!

      • Listen coward, I stand by what I said! Anal sex is nasty, unnatural, abnormal, and damaging to male and female. But what you cowards want the rest of sane society to believe is that it is somehow normal and natural for men to have sex in the feces of other men. It is a dirty perversion and barbaric, and that is why God calls it an “Abomination”. See, I left my name, now add yours.

        • Yes but men do it to women as well it’s not exclusively a gay thing. So if gay people do not have anal sex the it okay right ?

          • Anal sex was one of the earliest versions of birth control.

            More than one woman friend has told me how much she enjoys anal sex with her husband.

            • Hehehe … I once wrote a story called Christian College Sex Comedy where one poor guy finds himself at an otherwise fundamentalist All-Girls Christian College (a boarding school). Anal sex was how they “morally” worked around their Purity Pledges while consistently ‘ambushing’ our hero.

              I mean, the girls were still vaginal virgins and that was the important thing when going to their marriage beds … right?

              • I googled the title of your story and have mixed feelings about where that took me. You might want to do the same because maybe you are being plagiarized.

                While I don’t know, I too went to a Christian college in MA and while the co-eds would swear they were virgins, their body language with their boyfriends indicated intimacy to me so may be your comedy was based in reality.

                Christians sure do get hung up on virginity. Back in the day when women were chattel, some Christian women chose to rebel against the idea that they were something to be bought and sold and dedicated their virginity to Christ, not because they sought to be holier than anyone else, but because it was a rebellion.

                Paul’s teachings about men and women are egalitarian and those early Christian women knew this. And then like so much dogma in the church, the reasons for the profession of perpetual virginity were forgotten and Hellenistic gnostic dualism found a home in the idea of celibacy and perpetual virginity, which was never part of God’s creation.

                And, yes, Joe Catholic, since you are going to ask, while Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, she certainly didn’t remain one. She and Joseph had children. And even if they didn’t, Jesus would have ruptured her hymen when He was born.

                And, yes, I have read the Docetic writings that said Jesus was a fully formed human baby within the womb and a fully formed human baby outside of it but was transformed into some sort of ether as he passed through the hymen, and, no, I don’t believe that for one minute because it is not consistent with fully human and fully God. Fully human babies don’t turn into ether.

          • Sexual pleasure doesn’t hurt anyone it blesses the relationship and gay people experience the same cleaving together through sexual intimacy in the marriage that straight people do.

            • There’s simply no truth to what you say! Gay sex is dirty and unclean. it is why gay men life expectancy is shorter than heterosexual men. There is nothing “good” about a man ripping apart the anus of another man! It is horrible!

              • It’s the anti-gay garbage you read that has made your imagination depraved. Wow you are a sicko! Stay away from children you monster.

              • Wayne that does not describe anything I have ever thought of or experienced. It is vile of you to equate what you wrote with lovemaking.

                You clearly don’t understand loving sexual intimacy between two men.

                • Joe, you are badly misguided as there is no such thing as “love making” between two men or two women for that matter. It is a perversion of what true love making is between a male and a female, the two persons that God ordained for love making. To have sex inside a man’s rectum and feces is abominable! There’s nothing natural, normal, or honorable about it, and everybody knows it in their heart of hearts!

                  • That is what you know in your version of reality. People with more accurate information and different life experiences have a vastly different understanding.

                  • Wayne as you admit it is lovemaking but the perversion is in your own mind. You are the one dwelling on sex. Get your mind out of the gutter!! It is your opinion not God’s. It couldn’t be more normal for two men who are attracted to each other to make love and make a life together.

                  • Wayne as you admit it is lovemaking but the perversion is in your own mind. You are the one dwelling on sex. Get your mind out of the gutter!! It is your opinion not God’s. It couldn’t be more normal for two men who are attracted to each other to make love and make a life together.

            • gay people experience the same cleaving together through sexual intimacy in the marriage that straight people do.

              No, gay men in “committed relationships” are much more likely than straight couples to engage in “open relationships” with other sexual partners being frequent and accepted. Yes, I can provide evidence of this. Now, you can say this has nothing to do with the emotional bond between these men, but it puts paid to your claim that they “cleave together” through “sexual intimacy”.

              • What this demonstrates is a healthy relationship with good communication. Rules are put into place to protect both the relationship and their physical health. The majority of men cheat on their wives without telling them, leaving them open to being blindsided and, far worse, not knowing that they must protect themselves from infection.

                While the above behaviours make me queasy, it isn’t my place to regulate or judge what floats someone else’s boat.

                • The majority of men cheat on their wives without telling them, leaving them open to being blindsided

                  I’m going to be charitable here and ask for clarification, because a literal reading of your words is . . . foul. Do you mean that a majority of men cheat on their wives or that a majority of men who cheat on their wives don’t tell them?

                  If you mean the first, please shut up. I have no interest in further conversation with you. If the second, we’d have to talk about that further.

                  • According to multiple studies, the majority of men cheat on their wives. Remembering that majority means more than 50%, not all of them. As to the telling, it would be a very rare man who says to his wife, “I am going out to cheat on you tonight. You had best protect yourself against infection until I can get tested.” Any telling usually happens later from getting caught.

                    And yes, women cheat too, but you were talking about men so I was comparing apples to apples.

                • Wayne it is your own mind thinking that. Your thoughts are polluted with salacious ideas about sex that has damaged your perception of LGBT people.

                • Yep, Wayne get your own mind out of the gutter. I’ve never had a porn problem or a had anonymous encounters. I think it’s because I am looking to get married and find a partner.

                • There is no good reason why two men cannot get married and have a family like everyone else . It’s all made up by the church to control people. The church is all about family but when gay men want to have a family the church says “no”. I think that is hypocritical.

                  • There is a very good reson why two men can’t have a family: having sex in another man’s rectum and feces will NEVER produce children! Since gays tout science all the time to excuse their perversion, then science isn’t on your side. You will NEVER be able to procreate with another men, so stop being delusional!

                    • That is a whole lot of misrepresentation. There is not one gay man alive who thinks that anal sex with his male partner will produce a child. With that being said, ability to procreate is not a requirement of heterosexual marriage, merely a side benefit for some. Since it is not a requirement for straight people, you cannot impose it as a requirement for gay people.

                      Also, gay couples do have children if they want them. They may already have them from a previous marriage or relationship . They may hire a surrogate. Lesbians may use artificial insemination. Gay couples also choose adoption, and when they do they generally choose a “hard to adopt” child, meaning an older child, one with a troubled background, one with a health condition, one with a learning disability, one for. The “wrong race”. Straight couples have a far greater tendency to adopt younger, healthier children.

                      Please know that I am speaking in generalities from the research. Of course there are exceptions to what I have written.

                    • You exhibit a fascination with anal sex, so I am surprised that you have not done the research on it. For example, not all gay men participate in anal sex. There isn’t a rule about what style of love making gets you your gay card. And, as we all know if we are following the science, we are all born with our sexual orientations in place.

                      Further straight people also participate in anal sex, and they do so for several reasons. For some people, it is pleasurable and an interesting addition to their love play. Some people use it as a form of contraception. And some people use it in error because they did not receive good quality Sex Ed and have no idea there is another entrance to be found.

                      Put that all together and you learn that there are far more straight people having anal sex than gay people. So if opposition to anal sex is your argument against gay people getting married, then you had better start opposing the marriage of straight people.

                    • And another thing . . . Two people married to each other and without children ARE a family. Their family is created by their marriage. Their marriage also joins two existing families into one.

                      And before anyone gets mad at me for being exclusionary, I believe in biblical marriage. A biblical marriage is when two people make commitments to each other and then live together supporting each other. A biblical marriage does not involve priests or judges or a marriage registrar or a caterer or a grand cathedral or a dress that bankrupts the woman’s parents.

                    • Wayne, when the threads reach a certain number of replies, and when you get narrower and narrower spaces for the replies, the program stops allowing the possibility of a reply. You will note that in your comment where you call me a coward for not allowing replies, that comment itself does not allow replies. Your comment simply reached the end point, as mine did. I expect a retraction of your insult.

                    • What I wrote is not gay rhetoric 101, it is the result of scientific investigation. We use our brains. We question things. We confirm that what we already knew was true or we learn things. Well, at least some of us do. Some people are happy wallowing in mindless drivel because ing new knowledge does not suit their prejudices or their irrational need to feel superior.

                    • Well, I guess my parents aren’t really married then. Since they were unable to have biological children of their own due to “incompatible reproductive systems,” they adopted my brother and me. Thank you for saying my family is an abomination, for denying that I am legitimately anyone’s child, and invalidating my heterosexual parents’ 43-year legal marriage commitment.

                    • Jenn, that is the problem with those on the left. They always embellish and outright lie about what someone has said or means. I said nothing about you being an illegitimate human being. I said very clerly that two persons of the same gender cannot and will never be able to procreate naturally the way the Creator has designed, and I stand by that irrefutable truth and reality. If you were adopted, that is a great thing and your parents (Mother & FAther) should be highly commended for their love and commitment to you and your sibling.

                  • There is no good reason why two men cannot get married and have a family like everyone else .

                    Yes, there is. It’s called “incompatible reproductive systems.”

                    • Zaklog, exactly my point. Patricia Brush is a coward. She writes complete nonsense, and then don’t allow you to reply.

                      Every single thing she has said is gay rhetoric 101! Any man that wants to be sodomized by other men or vice versa, is a nasty and dirty pervert!

                      Marriage is between a man and a woman. Sexual pleasure, intimacy, and oneness can only happen between a man and a woman, and Jesus said as much in Matthew 19:4-6.

                      We’ve all heard the tired old gay nonsense about “not all gay men have anal sex”, yet the gay community has more STD’S, HIV, and AIDS than any grouping of people that walk the earth!

                      That is why their life expectancy is much shorter than heterosexual men. The CDC and US DEPARTMENT of HEALTH affirms this realiy through their documentation of millions of cases involving gay people.

                      God intended that men and women have sex in order to procreate, not buy a surrogate for $30,000.

                      Furthermore, when God said, “Honor Thy Mother and Father”, He clearly defined what contitutes a family. When He created Adam and Eve in the beginning, He defined family. Nothing anyone from the LGBT community is able to refute these facts from a biblical or a scientific perspective.

                • There is no good reason why two men cannot get married and have a family like everyone else . It’s all made up by the church to control people. The church is all about family but when gay men want to have a family the church says “no”. I think that is hypocritical.

        • If I was so inclined I could give you names of at least 3 Christian gay male couples, all with 18+ years together as couples, who do not participate in anal sex; but I’m not so inclined. But you go ahead and let your imagination run as to how they sexually express love and commitment to one another because that’s where your mind will go, Wayne. And why don’t you pull out your laundry list and then drop a stone for each of your indiscretions… I hope you walk away empty-handed. Check yourself.

    • Dear Wayne:

      I’m wondering … what exactly is the force of ‘paradidomi’ in Rom 1:26? What does it mean that God ‘gave them over’ to this? I’m not going to dispute Romans 1; but I do believe that it must be read carefully and that it – like any text – should be questioned carefully that we might learn it better.

      The thing is, the ‘sin’ mentioned up to that point consists of such things as unbelief [v. 16-17], culpable repression of known truth concerning God’s revealed nature [v 18-20], and the refusal to honor God [v 21] leading ultimately to the ‘exchanging’ of truth for lying idolatry [v 23ff].

      Also used in v 24, ‘paradidomi’ seems to impose ‘bodily dishonor’ as an outward representation manifesting the inward impurity of their hearts.

      Paul returns to the core issue of not acknowledging God [v 28] and uses ‘paradidomi’ a third time. There, the idea of God ‘giving over’ is enlarged to include ‘all unrighteousness’ [v 29 cf. 18] which in turn is explained epexegetically to include: ‘wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice, gossip, slander, hating God, insolence, hubris, inventors of evil, disobedience, etc., etc. [vs 29-31].

      Have you considered the possibility that Paul perhaps structured his argument that way for a reason? Have you considered what that might be? Have you considered that he may have accessed strong, local prejudices and couched his discussion of sin generally in specific language he knew many Romans would receive quickly? Have you considered that Paul may have employed one particular sin as a way of addressing the profligacy of imperial Rome and the emerging cult of emperor worship? Is it certain that we exclude on exegetical grounds the possibility that Paul may be using one sexual sin as a metaphor to describe something else – rather as Saint John describes Rome’s economic policies under the imagery of the whore of Babylon in the Revelation? For example: it is possible that the sin of sodomy might be used to describe balanced-budgeting/austerity-driven politics by which the wealthy repudiate all responsibility to the poor?

      ‘Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy’ [Ezek 16:49].

      So what is paradidomi? What is sodomy?


      • yes gdd, and in the very same speech starting in chapter two Paul writes,

        “You, therefore, have no excuse, YOU who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

        But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

        (and the most important point )

        For God does not show favouritism.”

    • Wayne I don’t think God would randomly pick children to afflict them with gayness to show his judgement on the world. Your reasoning is flawed.

      • However, Wayne. Famous Christian theologian John Calvin (based I recall on the New Testament words about potters) posited that from the foundation of time, God chose to create some human beings for one purpose and one purpose ONLY. He chose them to commit sin throughout their lives in a preordained condition where they would never be able stop sinning or repent, no matter how much they wanted to do so or tried. Calvin goes on to say that God created these men and women as “toys” for for his Heavenly pleasure, meaning that God created them solely for the purpose of the pleasure and recreation He would one day get out of the act of destroying them.

        This kind of stuff is one reason I have never been a fan of John Calvin—but the fundies have adopted a lot of Calvinist theology into their belief system.

        If Calvin is correct, which I very much doubt. It could be that LGBT people are these people, meaning people saddled with “natural things,” even genetic, things designed by God from the foundation of the world to ensure that they will be perpetual sinners and never be able to lift themselves out of it no matter how hard they might try—even through repentance. People for whom real repentance is preordained by God to be impossible.

        Just a thought thrown out from “The Twilight Zone” corner of Christian theology.

        • Not all,

          never all.

          The church is full of skeptics and doubters but people like you judge rather than encourage or help those weak in the faith

        • Beg to differ but it was not written by men in the Catholic Church but men in the Christian Church!
          The Bible was God inspired not the Catholic doctrine!

          • EJ, perhaps you forgot to mention that the Catholic Church didn’t even exist until 1054 when in an unedifying moment the Pope in Rome and the Pope in Constantinople mutually excommunicated each other.

            Before that date the primary sources refer to the catholic church or, more commonly, the church.

            In approx 150 CE Justin Martyr refers to the church as Mother Church so some writers used that term.

            • Gloriamarie, Thanks for that info and the reminder. I forgot they did refer to it as the catholic church but the catholic church in those referrals are different than the Catholic Church Joe is a member of and is constantly referring to. I was taught they were the only Christian church and all others were lost! Not so thankfully! Catholic church with a little c is not the same as Catholic with the capital C but he seems to think so.

              • Joe, I base my belief on what Christ taught us not what man interprets for me! The Catholic church may have put the new testament books together but they are not the soul interpreters of the Bible! No matter what a man tells me his interpretation is I go to the Bible and see what Christ said himself! You will be surprised how often man’s interpretation is way off base. I suggest you do this yourself Joe and see just what was really said. I think you are very sincere in trying to be a good Christian but you are following teachings that are taught more to keep control of the believers. You, yourself, can talk directly to God and be led by Him. You do not have to go through a priest to talk to God and you do not have to go to a priest and confess your sins to him to be forgiven. It is fantastically freeing and a huge comfort to know you can do this and then do it. God wants us to come to Him ourselves and He is there for us. I cannot count the times he has protected me, taught me, comforted me, led me, and most of all loved and forgave me when I stumbled. He is always there to pick me up! He also lets me argue with Him as He is a big enough and a loving enough God to allow me to do that! He is not this ogre of a God but a very loving and forgiving God. Look at the scriptures yourself and let God lead you to what they mean.
                And, yes, I grew up in the Catholic church and there are many wonderful people in there. However, I cannot be separated from my God with a teaching that I have to have the priest to do what I am able to do myself now. And, yes, I now receive the body and blood of Christ at communion where when I was in the Catholic church we were only allowed to receive the body as we were not considered worthy enough to receive His blood! So wrong!
                I wish you the best and that you will find your truth whether it is in the church or out of it!

              • Once again I am going to ask you if you believe one has to be a Catholic to be a Christian?
                Another question is why can’t you go directly to Christ for guidance on the scriptures but instead have to have them interpreted by man?
                What I have gotten from your comments is that it is only the Catholic Church that has the truth and only them that knows how to interpret the scriptures correctly.
                Christ is the Rock that Christianity is based on and not anyone or anything else!
                If you have a real relationship with Christ He will help you to understand scripture and to do so correctly. Of course you have to be open to His teaching and not trying to twist it to fit what you want to hear instead.

    • Wayne,

      Please read:

      Gay Books

Reasonable and Holy: Engaging Same-Sexuality
      by Tobias Stanislas Haller

      God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships
      by Matthew Vines

      Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe
      by John Boswell

      Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality: Gay People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the Fourteenth Century
      by John Boswell

      Gay Unions: In the light of Scripture, Tradition and Reason.”
      Rev. Gray Temple (Jr.).

Gay and Christian? Yes!
      by Rev. William H. Carey

      Hounded by God: A Gay Man’s Journey to Self-Acceptance, Love , and Relationship, by Joseph Gentilini
      is based on years of journals that this spiritual gay man kept.  It chronicles his coming out experiences, dealings with family and friends,  his commitment to his partner, Leo Radel, and, most importantly, his relationship with God.

      Confessions of a Gay Married Priest: A Spiritual Journey by Maurice Monette,
      who was a member of a religious order for 30 years, and has been married to his partner for 24 years.  The book is an autobiography which chronicles the high points and low points of the spiritual road that Monette trod.  The book has been praised by several high-profile Catholic leaders.

      • He will not read those books he is afraid of them. He thinks books and people who don’t hold to his interpretation of the Bible should be avoided or he might get infected with the false gospel.

        • I don’t know that about Wayne, The Real Joe Catholic, and I suspect you don’t know that either. He might surprise us. We can hope.

          • I know Wayne from another blog He trolls progressive blogs to share his condemnation and self righteous indignation of LGBT people.

            • Listen coward, I stand by what I said! Anal sex is nasty, unnatural, abnormal, and damaging to male and female. But what you cowards want the rest of sane society to believe is that it is somehow normal and natural for men to have sex in the feces of other men. It is a dirty perversion and barbaric, and that is why God calls it an “Abomination”. See, I left my name, now add yours.

              • If You think anal sex is all we do you are sadly mistaken. We make love. You are indoctrinated by antigay rhetoric.

                  • Agreed. Although there are some Catholics who like to believe that every Catholics believes exactly as every other Catholic, the facts do not support that belief.

                    For example, I receive email every day from various progressive Catholic groups telling me about their mission to preserve women’s health care, their work to ensure civil liberties for all people.

        • This is true. You know the fundie mindset well. From their earliest days in places like IFB churches, even after repentance and salvation, some form of terrible damnation (like pissing God off so He gives you cancer or loss of Heavenly rewards)) is still always just around the corner. Therefore, the fundie is REQUIRED to separate himself completely from all persons, places, and things that might in the slightest, most microscopic manner pull him or her away from the dogma that has been pounded into their heads since childhood. To do so is to court absolute disaster for themselves and their families in this world and the world in Heaven to come. For that very reason, it is nearly impossible to get a fundie to read or watch any sort of media containing factual information or data that runs counter to the dogma they have been brainwashed with—-and North Korea style brainwashing is a fair, honest, and just term for what goes on in fundie churches because abject fear is the driving emotion behind nearly everything they do.

        • Joe, you and other revisionist gay people are really funny and amazing, especially when it comes to the Scripture that condemns the perversion and barbaric behavior of homosexuality.

          I am a Seminary trained Christian, and there is not a single argument from gay revisionists that can debunk anything that I would ever believe or write concerning what the Bible teaches about homosexuality.

          In short, and in layman’s terms: Almighty God was clear when HE created male and female, gave them complimentary and corresponding sexual organs and reproductive abilities. There’s simply no way around it. It is horrible for one man to mount another man and penetrate him sexually in the anus. So keep trying, keep coming up with with stupid arguments.

          You need to read materials by the world’s most recognized Scholar and Theologian on this subject: Dr. Robert A.J. Gagnon. He is so powerful and scholarly that gay revisionists refuse to debate him on the subject. Homosexuality is sinful and jut plain wrong!

          • I forgive you for the sexual thoughts that burden you. What you imagine is not what I experience. You aare the one who holds images in your mind I anal sex against gay men that is weird to me.

          • He’s a Presbyterian who got his Ph.D. from one of the schools that started Christian fundamentalism in the early 20th century. As far as I am concerned, that alone prejudices and disqualifies him.

          • Dear Wayne:

            As a point of accuracy, Brownson’s methodical dissection of Gagnon’s argument must be answered. By the way – from what theological seminary did you matriculate?

            • I think “micturate” rather than “matriculate” is a better word for what actually happens to human minds in small, private, fundie-biased Bible colleges. These are the collleges that dwell on the most profound theological questions of our time?

              “Do you believe the Bible alone is sufficient unto salvation?”

              Do you believe the boys and girls should swim in the same pool water together at the Holiday In Express?

              Will God send me to Hell if I take ballet lessons? In some ballets, the Ballerina has to “daince” with a male counterpart.

              Will Jesus reward me in Heaven if I hacksaw the elevator cable in a hotel for gays only?

              If I rape a girl on campus tonight, can you really make sure she gets all the blame? You know. Like you said last week when we met?

              • As someone who allowed a small, private, evangelical college the honor and privilege to bestow a BA in Biblical and Theological Studies upon me (it was, after all, the third college I attended), I have to speak on behalf of that school at least because my professors taught me critical thinking skills, how to use them, and the ability to teach myself what I want to learn.

                I mention this because that was in the mid-1970s and apparently those skills are in very short supply nowadays.

                But I was very carefully and deliberately educated in those skills.

            • GDD:

              You’re funny if you think that anyone can “dissect” Dr. Gagnon’s scholarship and work on the perversion of homosexuality. He is simply the best in the world, and that is why so-called “gay revisionists” refuse to publicly debate him…..even after he practically beg them to debate him. Brownson’s work at best is high school level, and I am really being quite generous and gracious.

              • No one can dispute Gagnon’s expertise but he is biased. Like all those in the ex-gay camp his view of LGBT christians is hostile. And Wayne you have already proven this point with your preceding comments.

              • Dear Wayne:

                Certain things are expected of one claiming a full theological education.

                If one critiques an author, we expect to see specific sections of a work referenced. We expect an exacting definition of issues to be addressed, based on the fairest representation from its very best exponents. Questions integral to those issues will be expressed in clear, logical, sequential and necessary relations, compelling minds to this or that end. We expect clear, penetrating, incisive, exegesis of such crushing weight that the opposed position becomes untenable. We expect to see competence in Hebrew and Greek [at least], plus familiarity with lexicons, grammars and syntax. We expect to read, ‘Brownson’s treatment of kinship is faulty because…’ And ‘the key to Brownson’s discussion of moral logic is found here…’ and ‘…on its own terms it is shown to be faulty as he applies it there.’ We expect to read, ‘for the following grammatical reasons.’ We expect a conclusion saying ‘a better, more complete, more compelling and more natural explanation is found in this model.’ We expect that because that is how theologically trained minds write.

                Where that is missing, any trained theological mind knows it immediately.

                To expect such exacting work from everyone is neither fair nor right. But claiming a competent seminary education obliges oneself to evidence in writing that breadth and depth of comprehension, not as a matter of intellectual snobbery but of personal integrity. Attesting that our Father gave you the mind and opportunity to gain such perspective, you give us the right to expect this. Speaking only for myself, I do not see such honesty or integrity in the antecedent post.

                I realize that this venue imposes limitations. But if you have [in fact] read Brownson, the expected response would be a summary paragraph listing [1] this, [2] that, [3] another and [4] lastly grounds for rejecting his position. To offer ‘my author is taller than yours’ as a substantive reply is fundamentally dishonest and stands in adversarial relationship to the ninth commandment – not because Brownson’s book is fatally flawed, but because despite your seminary training, you offer up that as a theologically responsible statement. To repeat myself – anyone with a full, theological recognizes that for what it is. In fact many with no theological training see it for what it is.

                Less than complementary things are sometimes said on the internet; they are best overlooked. But while you cast no aspersions here, other participants have a right to expect more– because you are a ‘seminary trained Christian.’ I am forced to stand on one of two points. 1] Either you and I take ‘seminary trained’ to mean two very different things, or 2] not for myself but for others – you owe this forum an apology, Wayne. You know better and you can do better.

                Which of those two points would you suggest is correct, Wayne?


      • All nonsense! That is especially true of Matthew Vines book, which is written on a 8th grade level. Matthew is a young and misguided kid who simply wants to be sodomozed by other men, so he writes a bunch of nonsense. I will debate him any time, any place, and on my dime!

    • You seem to think that somehow homosexuality is a choice, when science has proven it is nature, not nurture. I guess for me I take people at face value, and interact with them according to how they treat me and others.
      If you are disrespectful, then I distance myself from you & your toxicity. I see a great deal of judgement in your post, and I think instead of being so concerned about what happens between consenting adults behind closed doors, perhaps you might want on things that really matter, like discrimination, poverty & illiteracy.
      Lastly, I’ve been looking for the Bible passage that mentions “feces.”

      • “Lastly, I’ve been looking for the Bible passage that mentions “feces.””

        Actually, Angela, there is one. When Judas hangs himself the koine is “splechna” and is variously translated but when someone dies by hanging, their bowels void and that is what the koine says.

        So, there you have it.

      • There’s no science that proves homosexuality is by nature. The Bible says that it is “against nature”, and that it is “unnatural” and “Shameful”. If homoseuxals are born gay, then pedophiles are also born gay!

        • Cool beans except … homosexuality has been witnessed in virtually EVERY culture on Earth – pre- and post-Christianity. It is what it is. Humanity has been ‘doing it’ since before the time of Abraham and no amount of suppression has stopped it. In fact, despite some real stiff penalties ~ like being tortured to death ~ people keep doing it. I repeat – those are the facts.

          You might go with homosexuals are evil … I’m sure the Spartan Kingdom, or the Sacred Band of Thebes would debate the … no, they wouldn’t. They’d figure out you were a non-Greek, babbling some hateful bigotry in some barbaric tongue and dispatch you like a mad dog … cause it is what they did … both being the paragons of martial virtue of their day.

          Also, can you seriously be living so far in the past you confuse pedophilia with homosexuality. News Flash: most pedophiles are heterosexual … and “best of all” [sarcasm in case you couldn’t tell] they most often prey on their own, younger family members. They do so because they are trusted with the children’s welfare by their relatives and the child, told to trust their abuser, doesn’t know who to turn to.

          It is the same reason ever other sexual predator tries to seek out a position of trust and/or authority – easy access to victims who trust them and who others won’t trust of they bring forth accusations.

          Since I’m afraid you might go there ~ rape is about power, not sex. Homosexual rape is about power, not homosexuality. It is often perpetuated generationally. Victims, themselves having grown up unable to deal with the trauma then traumatize those who are vulnerable to them.

          As a parting suggestion: why would anyone want to be homosexual? Seriously, why go through all the aggravation? You get to be in a tiny minority, often misunderstood ~ even in danger … so why do it?

          I would offer you the answer of “they do not have a choice”. No more so than you can stop being heterosexual can they stop being homosexual. No one can be ‘turned gay’ any more than they can be ‘made straight’.

          Besides, if the opposite was true … the lesbians would steal all our women. 😉 Come on now. They know all the secret tricks we men can’t even imagine about a woman’s body. We wouldn’t stand a chance. Within a decade, half the population would be lesbian. It would be the Doom of All Mankind … just saying.

          • Excellent reply with one language issue. Since “homosexual rape” isn’t about homosexuality, then don’t call it that. It is male-on-male rape, expressing power and control, not sexuality. Other than that one small quibble, I agree with what you said.

              • I think it is an important distinction to make. As a general rule, we do not call male-on-female rape or female-on-male rape
                “heterosexual rape”. By calling it “homosexual rape” we cast an aspersion on an entire demographic.

                It becomes even more important when discussing the sad tale of Sodom and Gomorrah. All the men of the town turned up to attempt to intimidate the visitors by using gang rape. All the men, not just the gay men, all the men. All the men were participating in a known war method for dominating people who aren’t like you. And yet many commentaries refer to it as homosexual rape, and from this deliberate misunderstanding we have the root of homophobia and violent oppression.

                • Further, angels do not have gender as that is an earthly concept that doesn’t belong to the divine. So the attempted rape at S&G is NOT a male-on-male event.

                  • Patricia, S & G is very much about homosexuality! Yes, the angels are “Sexless” creatures, but the names that are mentioned of them is always in the masculine voice. And you dismissed one major factor: the perverts in the story of S & G THOUGHT THAT THE TWO ANGELS WERE MEN………BECAUSE THEY CAME IN THAT APPEARANCE! You apparently don’t comprehend or that you’re deliberately deceitful in leaving out pertinent information just to make a point in support of homosexuality. Let me just tell you: any homo that does not repent of their perversion and turn to Christ, they are going to Hell!

                    • We assume the names are masculine names because angels are important and only men can be important. ( I wish that someone would hurry up and create sarcasm font.)

                      You have completely missed the point that intimidation through rape was a known practice of the time period and that it has absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation. The “perverts” in the story were ALL the men of Sodom. That means that the vast majority of them would have been straight. Their purpose was violence and the seizing of power, not sexual satisfaction.

                      For as long as you continue to equate rape with homosexuality , I understand why you would be disgusted by the thought of gay sex. You believe it to be violent and disgusting. I agree that rape is violent and disgusting, but that is not what gay people do. You have been stirring up your anger with a fallacy.

            • I apologize, Ms. Brush. I was speaking to Wayne in a language I figured his mind worked in. You are right. Rape has nothing to do with sexuality at all. It is about power and control.

              Anna P, Ms. Amalfitano and Ms. Brush … everything I posted is commonly available knowledge to anyone with access to an adequate Public Library and/or the internet and nothing more.

              Except for the last paragraph … I sorta made that up … sometimes my desire to mock escapes me. Whoops.

              Also, let us not forget I remain … the Enemy. Go Trump! Make America [Great / Granola-loving / 20% Gratuity / Grandiose] Again! And please, Mr. Trump, don’t die in the next four years because then we’ll have President Pence … then … Lord Help Us All!

              And, as a closing note, please consider that President-elect Trump promotes an Alternate Lifestyle. It happens to be an alternate shade of orange, but it is still an ‘alternate’, right? That’s got to count for something. 😉

              • I loved your last paragraph. You may have made it up but there was a strong element of truth in it.

                I understand about writing in a language that the listener can understand. I often use people’s own words and then reshape them to make the opposite point. It is kinda fun.

          • James, moset pedophiles are indeed homosexual! You guys are mentally ill, and I would never allow my children to be around you! I say again, if gays are born gay, so are pedophiles!

            • Wayne, what is your assertion based on? Mine is based on decades of psychological and criminal studies on both subjects. Real mental health officials and criminologists (pedophilia being a heinous crime and all) have wanted to know the root causes of pedophilia ~ so they’ve devoted extensive resources into it.

              Homosexuality hasn’t been considered a mental health issue in the Western World in over 50 years … so right up there with ‘mixed marriages’ accepted legal behavior. FYI, by ‘mixed marriages’, I don’t mean lovers of Jazz marrying Mozart-aficionados.

        • More pedophiles are hetero-sexual than homosexual! Just because someone is homosexual it does not mean they are pedophiles.
          In fact it depends on where a fetus is at in development when a surge of hormones can interfere with their sexuality. So yes, a true homosexual is born that way and it was not a choice. However there are those that were not born that way but chose to live that way.
          Being a pedophile has nothing to do with hormones!

          • Oddly enough, I was discussing this with a psychologist the other day and she told me that psychologists are turning in a different direction about pedophiles. They are not necessarily considering them heterosexual any longer because they are not so much attracted to the opposite gender as they are attracted to children because of the perceived vulnerability.

            • So Gloriamarie, enlighten me on what they are considering them please? I know some only prefer a certain sex, others don’t care as long as it is a child. Others are molesting because that is what they were taught and grew up with. I know most of it is about vulnerability and overpowering. What are they calling them? Did she happen to mention anything about why it is one crime that they consider can never be rehabilitated or have they figured that out yet?

              • No, they can’t be rehabilitated. She said they refer to them as Pedophiles as that is their sexual orientation. That it is immaterial whether they prey on girls or boys, they point is they prey on children.

                It wasn’t a long or detailed conversation so I probably can’t answer your questions.

                • Thanks for what you could tell me.

                  Too many people think that if a person is a homosexual there are going to molest children. Some pedophiles do only molest the one sex and then others it doesn’t matter as long as they are a child. Most are not homosexuals though like too many people like to think.
                  Thanks again for answering.

                  • I agree there are entirely too many people determined to be misinformed and insist all pedophiles are homosexuals brutalizing boys.

                    Which demeans the brutalization of girls by adult males.

    • As for taking CA & NY out of the equation: that’s fine w/ me as long as we get to take our tax money with us. Since CA puts in $2 for every dollar we get in federal aid, taking CA out of the EC is tantamount to taxation without representation.
      As for winning the EC, looks like there’s more to that история (Russian for story). Here in the US , we tend to frown on cheaters, and it’s beginning to look like DT had some outside help getting that EC “landslide.”

    • Wayne the fact there are good gay people who are not depraved proves you are wrong about what it says in the Bible

      • You are biblically illiterate as the vast majority of Catholics are! There are no “good people”. I refer you to Jeremiah 17:9 and Romans 3:10.

        • I went to seminary with people who were comp[letly ignorant of the history of the Christian Church. While Joe Catholic makes extravagant claims that the only form of Christianity is the Roman Catholic Church, it is as equally extravagant and equally untrue that the only form of Christianity is Protestantism.

          Both of you are wrong. There is no one true Christian Church unless it is the one the embraces the Nicene Creed without the filioque clause. And these are only a handful of statements and are the only statements all Christians have in common.

        • Yes, Wayne we are human and flawed but God created goodness within us. It is the evil in the world that has corrupted us 1 John2:16. But, many good people exist, because they choose good over that evil. That’s what I am talking about. The fact that there are so many gay people who are not depraved proves you are wrong about what you read in the scripture about us.

          • Remember the expression “20% of the people do the work” in a parish or church? In every parish of which I have been a member, 100% of the homosexual people in the church gave generously of their time to serve the parish in whatever capacity.

            Most of the heterosexual people only showed up on Sunday morning.

            I rejoice to serve with those of a parish who know that there is more to being a community of faith than showing up on Sunday. I rejoice to call LGBTQs my sisters and brothers in the Lord.

          • All gays are depraved as are all human beings! Homosexuality is very ugly, depraved, barbaric, and I would never allow my children to be around known gay men and women.

  3. Thank you John. All God’s children were welcome in our home and they were like our children. My sons have had life long friends that are gay, straight and every color. I am thankful for that. The God I believe in surely cannot condone parents that do not have unconditional love for their child.

    • All God’s children were welcome in our home and they were like our children.

      Except, of course, for those nasty conservatives who voted for Trump. They have no place in your home. Or am I wrong?

      • That is what Pavlovitz is saying in his article. Keep the bigotry out! But I don’t think all conservatives are bigots. Just some. Right?

          • Tell me, Gloria, am I one of these bigots? And if so, what is your evidence? What have I said that is so bigoted?

              • Also calling yourself “Deplorable” is a dead giveaway about whom you voted for and if you voted for Trump and the GOP, then you voted for authoritarianism, bigotry, evil, fascism, gynophobia, homophobia, intolerance of differing opinions, misogyny, racism, rape, sexual assault/molestation, transgenderphobia, white supremacy, and xenophobia.

                So there’s that. In my opinion.

                • So, Gloria, tell me, is there a single person who disagrees with you politically who is not a bigot? Or is all opposition to your politics a dead giveaway of bigotry?

                  • #1) Clearly you have no desire to have a conversation in a respecful manner or you would pay me the respect of using my actual name instead of one that is not mine.

                    #2) Facts are facts are facts just as truth is truth is truth.

                    If a person voted for those who are voted for authoritarianism, bigotry, evil, fascism, gynophobia, homophobia, intolerance of differing opinions, misogyny, racism, rape, sexual assault/molestation, transgenderphobia, white supremacy, and xenophobia, then one runs the risk of being considered voted for authoritarianism, bigotry, evil, fascism, gynophobia, homophobia, intolerance of differing opinions, misogyny, racism, rape, sexual assault/molestation, transgenderphobia, white supremacy, and xenophobia in turn.

                    #3) You asked if I considered you a troll. Darn tootin’ I do and good day to you.

                    • If a person voted for those who are voted for authoritarianism, bigotry, evil, fascism, gynophobia, homophobia, intolerance of differing opinions, misogyny, racism, rape, sexual assault/molestation, transgenderphobia, white supremacy, and xenophobia

                      Yes, and Gloriamaria Amalfitano, here is where we disagree. We don’t believe we have voted for any of it, and you haven’t provided any meaningful evidence of these claims.

                      I could easily sling at least half of these charges right back at you, and provide clear arguments for why I think your side, including John Pavlovitz is far more guilty of them. Most of the rest, frankly, are nonsense words which are intended to dismiss opposition as illegitimate without having to bother arguing.

                      But you haven’t answered my question, Gloriamarie Amalfitano: Do you believe a person can disagree with you politically and not be a bigot?

                • You can’t be bothered to address me by my correct name. That is disrespectful since you did not ask my permission to shorten my name. I would have told you “no.”

                  • Okay, fine. I’ll address you by your full username. Now tell me, Gloriamarie Amalfitano, when are you going to apologize for dreadfully mangling my username in your post a few days ago whining about how rude I was? Or is this rule about being careful with people’s names another one of those leftist one-way-only rules?

                    • If I mangled your fake identity, I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

                      I ignore the rudeness of your intention in the last sentence.

                      Yes, I am on the left and I am freaking PROUD of it because people on the left understand what is meant by compassion.

      • You are wrong. My family and my friends and I freely state how we feel but we all understand and accept and we are still a family. We also consider friends as our family. Our oldest grandchild is 19 and so assured of knowing so much more than the old folks. He has always loved to say things to get a rise out of people. He adores Trump, wears NRA T-shirts, and listens to Rush Limbaugh. I own a Nasty Woman T-shirt. That is my home. I remember Sunday dinners where after dinner, my father, the only Democrat in a family of Republicans, would sit with the men (he had 11 brothers and sisters) and argue loudly about politics. When it was time to go, there would be hugs and handshakes. No matter how many arguments there was always love and respect and the knowledge that your family would always have your back and was your safe haven.

        • Oh, Joanne, you wrote “No matter how many arguments there was always love and respect and the knowledge that your family would always have your back and was your safe haven.”

          I read these words and I feel so sad, thinking of all the families that aren’t like that. Mine isn’t.

          I have two brothers and they hate each other even though they agree politically. Both of them have for whatever reasons abandoned our mother and, as a result, abandoned me because I stuck with mom and take care of her now that she is elderly.

          They think we are “too needy.” I don’t really care what they think of me, but to see how my mother grieves over her sons whom she loves. She is turning 92 at the beginning of next month. With all her heart, she just wants to see her sons again. One lives in NJ and it would take him effort to come but the other one lives about eight miles from her.

          • Oh Gloriamarie I am so sorry. The hurt must be overwhelming at times for you and your mother. But you do seem to have an inner strength and belief system that is beautiful. I am a great believer in hugs, the healing of the human touch. For me, the hardest part of this long distance communication is not being able to hold your hand when speaking of hurt and sadness.

            • “For me, the hardest part of this long distance communication is not being able to hold your hand when speaking of hurt and sadness.”

              That grieves me too. There are many people here I wish to hug and let them know someone cares.

              “But you do seem to have an inner strength and belief system that is beautiful.”

              Thank you. If there is one spiritual gift I would claim, it would be the gift of faith because after what I’ve been through, I can’t believe how real Jesus is to me. LOL I just read what I wrote. Silly me.

              I hope you understand what I am trying to say, though. LOL

        • Sorry my above comment was in response to Zaklog’s question. I forgot to mention that my sons and their wives did and still have close friends who happen to be gay. My daughter-in-law’s best friend from kindergarten is a black man, raised as a Jehovah Witness, who happens to be gay. He helped build and now heads the local LGTBQ center in this town and has done many wonderful things. He was my daughter-in-law’s Man-of-Honor when she married my son. My family does not pretend to be perfect. And when we get together we take no prisoners when it comes to teasing. I am sure there are those who would not find our brand of humor either funny or wholesome. But, we prefer laughter to almost anything else.

        • JM. –and i remember my parents cocktail parties in the 60s/70s where politics always came up. [ It was an education to see their passion.] No side was ever deemed the righteous one. [My Dad was a Liberal, and my Mom was a Conservative, –both Poly/Sci Majors (GWU) from Washington DC.]

          We regularly vacationed with many of my parents life-long friends. It wasn’t until (I was in my 40s) I found out who were the Baptists, who were the Mormons, who were Atheists, who were Liberal Jews, who were the Liberal CEOs. Good manners is always in style. Respect.

          • Sound like you have good memories of good people. Sometimes it takes adult eyes to look back and appreciate how special our memories are.

  4. It comes down to do no harm and leave people alone who are not attacking you. If your beliefs cause you to harm someone or to insert yourself in thier private lives then yes you need to be told to stop it.

    Antiquated Beliefs can change and will change as mankind matures. A lot of that change is motivated by God’s Spirit.

    • If your beliefs cause you to harm someone or to insert yourself in thier private lives then yes you need to be told to stop it.

      For instance, by wrecking their livelihoods because they do not wish to endorse your political cause? For instance, by policing what words people are allowed to use between friends? For instance, by telling ugly lies about crimes that never happened to slander your political opponents?

      • I am not sure what you are talking about specifically. It seems you have a lot of stored up anger about something and in my opinion is clouding your view.

        • I love and accept everyone. I don’t follow a set of rules I follow where the Spirit leads. That freedom allows me to reflect on myself and change what needs to be change at the right time. God doesn’t give us too much to handle. I have learned that when people are in dire situations they do better when the are loved unconditionally. Build them up and encourage them and they will do their best.

          • I love and accept everyone. I don’t follow a set of rules I follow where the Spirit leads.

            Then, I’m sorry to report this, but the other Joe is far more of a real Catholic than you. Which spirit would that be, by the way? The spirit who rules this world?

          • Anti-gay christians always, and I mean always, suspect and badger LGBT christians about having gay sex. While on the other hand I never entertain thoughts or questions about whether or not the heterosexual christian sitting beside me at church, is having sex…ever. Why is that? You have an unnatural obsession with whether or not I am having sex and frankly it’s weird and creepy.

            • I am 100% straight and I gotta tell you, I also think it is 100% creepy that anyone would speculate about what other people’s sex lives are like.

              Over a few drinks, women have shared some things with me as have men. Some times the women were lesbians, some times the women were straight and some times the men were gay some times the men were straight and if there is one thing to be gleaned from those tipsy sharings, is that there is infinite diversity, infinite combinations. No one group does it just one way.

              And a hat’s off and a bow to whoever gets that last literary reference.

            • Gee, you specifically identify yourself by a form of sexual sin and then wonder why we ask you if you’re involved in sexual sin. . . . Rational thinking is not really your strong suit, eh?

              • Actually JC brought it up not me. But it would be hard for you to know that, since you are not part of the conversation.

              • @RJC

                Actually JC brought it up not me.

                Please look at you avatar. Now stop spouting such childish, silly falsehoods, please.

              • Zaklog you identify as Deplorable proudly and loudly by your name. It saves something about you, so stop being a hypocrite.

              • Zaklog you identify as Deplorable proudly and loudly by your name. It saves something about you, so stop being a hypocrite.

                You apparently have some bizarre definition of hypocrisy I’m not aware of. I point out that you complain about someone making an issue of your sexuality when you very deliberately make a public issue of your sexuality and then you tell me I’m a hypocrite for calling myself one of Hillary’s “deplorables”. . . .

                Completely failing to see the connection there.

              • Zak, you have deplorable after your name and I have gay on my badge we are both identifying with something that sends a message to the world about who we are. However in my case I am truly gay but in your case I don’t think you are living up to the label you have chosen.

                God bless

            • You didn’t bring it up at first at all, until you wanted to call my morality into question- then you thought this would be a good way to do it by needling away at my sexuality.

              Of course your inquisition is proving fruitless and futile because you are only making accusations based on sinister suspicions.

              One of the reasons I am open and out at church and in my life is because I want people to know me. I don’t wear anything rainbow in my day to day life.

              As well I chose this badge because I liked the rainbow cross. I was looking for a rainbow fish but couldn’t find one that was appropriate . The words ” another christian who happens to be gay” was on the image but I didn’t choose the image sole for that reason. If you want I could look for a rainbow cross that doesn’t have words at all if they offend you. Let me know.

        • I am not sure what you are talking about specifically.

          So, you’re saying you haven’t been keeping up with the news at all in the past five years? Okay. Sure.

        • He is just angry that all American citizens have not jumped on the Trump bandwagon to celebrate the vanquishing of the “ni**er President by a white President elect. Stick around a while, and you will catch on.

          • celebrate the vanquishing of the “ni**er President by a white President elect.

            You know, I’ve known a lot of white people in my life. Many of them were conservatives. I have known very few people to ever use that word, and none, precisely zero, to use it on a regular basis.

            So maybe, Charlie old boy, you ought to stop projecting the vicious, bigoted hatred you harbor in your own heart onto us. Okay?

            • Zaklog the Deplorable- Then you are either very sheltered or young. I heard it daily in the 60’s and 70’s and I’m white. I can only weep at the thought of what those of color must have heard/hear.

              • A. Nonymous

                Even if I take it for granted that you’re telling the truth (which I doubt), news flash!!!! the sixties and seventies are just slightly in our rearview mirror. Perhaps if you’d bother talking about what’s going on today, we could have a meaningful conversation.

                • I have heard it within the last two years from someone less than half my age. I have not heard it recently as I am a homebody and that person is no longer allowed in my home. Do not assume that your disbelief changes fact; it does not. Such assumptions of a person’s character, especially on a faith-based blog, are hardly the sign of one who knows Christ personally. It is, however, a sign of small minds.

                  • Do not assume that your disbelief changes fact; it does not.

                    I assume no such thing. The world is what it is independent of what I imagine or would prefer it to be. That said, the reasons for my disbelief is quite simple: First, what you say runs completely contrary to my own experience. Second, I’ve seen quite a bit of leftists inventing bigotry (up to and including faking “hate crimes”) because there simply isn’t enough of the real thing around to justify their hysterias.

                    That said, even if you’re right, the seventies are forty years ago now. And one person using that word in your presence once is hardly proof of a widespread phenomenon.

                    Such assumptions of a person’s character, especially on a faith-based blog, are hardly the sign of one who knows Christ personally. It is, however, a sign of small minds.

                    I assume, since you are a fair and decent person, you will now rebuke Charles for damning me to Hell for disagreeing with his politics, right?

  5. John, all that you have said is so reasonable! Only someone ignorant enough to disagree with the fundamental reality that all men are created equal…should leave the United States because that is what our country is about.

  6. I’m just curious what this blog’s readership would make of the statement that is not only not a duty, but it is a sin, to take the care and responsibility due to your own countrymen and give it to foreigners instead.

    Any comments?

    • We need to preach the gospel and make disciples (Matthew 28:19-20). The transforming power of Jesus Christ is the answer. Real change doesn’t come from humanistic social action or legislation but in the power of the Gospel.

    • Dear Zaklog the Deplorable:

      …care and responsibility due to your own countrymen…

      Care and responsibility due to your own countrymen? I thought our own countrymen were supposed to stand alone and on their own two feet against the rest of the world, and that any hint of care and/or responsibility due was to be rejected as socialistic tomfoolery.

      • Please shut up, you disgusting commie shill. I have no interest in talking to the apologist for a philosophy that killed between 70 and 100 million people in the 20th century and still won’t die.

          • He frequently favorably cites Marx and he talks about how destructive capitalism is. He’s a complete fool and he supports a system which has destroyed millions of lives around the world. He can call himself whatever he wants; he’s still supporting downright evil.

            By the way, Charles, I’d like to say I appreciate the generosity of spirit on display here. First, you damn me to Hell for disagreeing with your politics, then you start openly cursing at me. That’s lovely behavior, Charles. Of course, I’m sure all the people around here who are so concerned about decorum will be here promptly to rebuke you.

            • People have tried but Charles will swear when he is angry about something.

              But I have seen you do that as well

              Zak”log in your eye” De’plorable

              Now don’t be made, I’m just keeping it

              real 😉

                • Nope, you rip in to people all the time. My mom taught me if you can’t stand the heat “get outta the kitchen buddy. “

                  • I wasn’t criticizing Charles for “ripping into people”. I was criticizing him for damning me to Hell for disagreeing with him politically and for swearing at me in a context where such words are clearly unwelcome. Now, the other Adorable said that I do these things as well. Citation, please.

        • Dear Zaklog the Deplorable:

          Some of us believe that there is a very good likelihood that Mr. Trump will initiate WW III, resulting inevitably in thermonuclear holocaust in which billions needlessly die.

          If Mr. Trump accomplishes this apocalyptic nightmare, will you also blame this on socialists?

  7. Well, Joe, you and Wayne and others like you are apparently just the opposite. You could care less whether anyone in our country is abused (physically or verbally), denied their human rights, made to feel humiliated , raped, sexually assaulted, or mistreated in any way–your only concern is for those not born yet. It may suprise you that many of us who read this blog and agree with John do not like abortions. We’d like to see them end, too. But we realize that there are better ways to bring that about (such as providing free birth control–a privately funded group in my state has been doing so for several years and the number of abortions commenthas gone way down! ). More importantly in the context of this blog–we also realize that being Christian is about extending the love (which I notice you tend to leave out of your comments entirely), life, and hope of Jesus to everyone, not just people who agree with you. And we realize that aligning yourself with Donald Trump, who spills over in every speech and tweet with hatred, prejudice, self-aggrandizement, love of money, and everything that Jesus does NOT stand for, is chasing non-believers away from Jesus as fast as you can. Which means they may never come to know his love because of people like you. How can you live with that? How can you call him a president of “good will”? How can you not see that he couldn’t care less about abortion anyway–he was always pro-choice until needing the Republican vote made him decide to lie, as he does so easily, and pretend to care. As soon as he is inaugurated and sworn in, he will do precisely what he wants for the next four years, and very little of it will have to do with good will, love, caring for people (born or unborn). I think you actually know that–you pretty much have to because it’s so obvious–you’re just in denial. You want to believe you made the right choice for the sake of your beliefs on one issue. Yeah, good luck with that. In the meantime, many of us who have just discovered John’s blog are rejoicing that there are others out there who really get what Jesus and Christianity are truly about. I agree with the others–why not go start your own blog and leave John’s alone?

        • Any woman with a brain, apparently. This is why female authors used to have to publish under male-sounding names- otherwise bros like this one would see their books at Ye Olde Barnes & Noble and say “Jane Eyre?! Balderdash! More like Hissy Fit Hissy Fit!”

          Then they’d go home, lock themselves in ye olde privy, and masturbate to the thought of a woman using a typewriter while wearing slacks.

        • I have always imagined a hissy fit as referring to an upset cat pulling themselves up and back while hissing, but I probably should look up its history.

          When referring to a human, it is derogatory. It implies that the person is irrational and behaving in an unstable manner over something of very little consequence.

    • Thank you Stacy, well said and heartfelt. Joe and Wayne ask yourself, what would Jesus do? Hissy fit, perversions(why so fixated)? Nope- Your misogyny, insecurities are showing. Attack ‘Christians’? Nope, I’ve never seen/heard John attack a true Christian.
      There is discussion, and there is attacking and insults. Kinda’ obvious. Peace be with you.

      • “There is discussion, and there is attacking and insults. Kinda’ obvious. Peace be with you.”

        Exactly, Hope, exactly. Thank you

      • Nope, I’ve never seen/heard John attack a true Christian.
        There is discussion, and there is attacking and insults. Kinda’ obvious. Peace be with you.

        Attacking and insults? You mean like declaring anyone who disagrees with your politics not a “true Christian” as you did here? Or literally damning us to Hell, as Charles recently did? Like that?

        I disagree with you morons, and I don’t hide it, but I’ve never crossed those lines. But, of course, from you, it’s just “discussion”. From us, it would be horrific “attacking and insults”.

        • “I’ve never crossed those lines, except when I feel like attacking and insulting you morons!”

          Good job, bro. Tell us another one.

          • Okay, idiot, I suggest you re-read the post, because you clearly didn’t understand a single word I wrote. Better yet, have that annoying conservative co-worker read it and explain it to you slowly, in small words.

              • Zak”log in your eye”

                Yes, yes, vague accusations of hypocrisy. Please demonstrate where I have either said that people I disagree with politically are not “true Christians” or that they are damned to Hell—both of which have been said by leftist commenters on this blog. Where? Where have I said this?

                I’m not nice. Fine. I call names. Fine. That was not the issue I was raising, and before you accuse me of hypocrisy you had better be able to demonstrate where I have violated the standard I have set.

                Now. Where? Either show me, or SHUT UP.

    • I found it to be a well-written, interesting post that I read in its entirety. Don’t blame the writer for your own shortcomings.

  8. “Oh look – you are some moron who believes in the Invisible Sky Faerie and an Impossibly Happy Afterlife.”
    “Oh look – you aren’t Buddhist so you are coming back as a grasshopper.”
    “Oh look – you converted to Christianity from Islam – you are an apostate.”
    “Oh look – you are a homosexual. You are going to Hell.”

    I disagree with Mr. Pavlovitz. You are free to believe what you believe and speak your beliefs. Be prepared to defend them as well. As adults, prepare to be offended on occasion. It happens. If your beliefs have merit ~ such as “God is Love” then you KNOW homosexuals have as much a chance as going to Heaven as any other Believer because … God is LOVE. Let other cling to a narrow-minded belief. Defend what you know is right.

    That does not mean stifling dissent. Dissent is a good thing. Sometimes it reminds us what what core spiritual foundations we should be fighting for, nurturing and encouraging forth in others.

    You want to be a White Supremacist? Okay; defend your position and be prepared to look stupid and be called bad and/or silly names. You’ve earned it. You still belong and we hope one day you’ll get over it.

    Progressives? Be prepared to defend your positions as well. The mockery is coming. You’ve added so many causes under your ‘Big Tent’ you’ve earned it.

    Idiot commentators from North Carolina who mock White Supremacists and Progressives? Prepare to be defend your mockery. It is only fair.

    Be unafraid. Treasure your beliefs. Find the words to defend them and convey their heartfelt meaning to others. Challenge what you think is wrong and accept others won’t accept the pathway you find yourself on. If this life was free of contradictions and conflicts, we would have no need of Heaven.

    TY John.

    • Thank you, John P. You are most certainly a humane and thoughtful man. You are admired and respected for your words.
      Thank you again and keep going. We need you.

  9. Such hypocrisy? How do you know God wasn’t talking about the orgies he so abhorred. Where anything goes animals and all. It is not referred to in any commandment. But adultery and even thinking about adulatory are both mortal sins. Referring to adultery twice seems to have made it pretty important. But then again we only know for sure that Trump, a good man you trust to do good things, has committed at least 3 mortal sins unless you really believe he knows more about Isis than the Generals as one example. Besides he obliterates the whole Goldem Rule. He thinks he should be able to call people names, show absolute contempt for anything and everything including his own countrymen, citizens he is supposed to serve and everyone is suppose to take it and say thanks and treat him with respect? Your definition of hypocrisy is different than mine. Like I said we see through different eyes.

    • Good one Joe. I do tell him all the time that I admire his passion. He still has teenager brain. I have 4 other teenaged grandchildren – all with teenager brain. The boys – girls, school, girls, job or sports or video games, girls. The girls – boys, selfies. school, boys, make-up and hair, boys. What was it you wanted me to ask them?

      • You would like my grandson, he loves to poke the bear, except he knows how much I love him so he never crosses the line. I would never try to stifle his passion. Yes, our children, we give them the best years of our life, teach them everything we know and if we are lucky they still grow up to be good people who have a mind of their own.

  10. I am pro-life and anti-Trump. I believe in fixing the root cause of an issue, and he will make it worse. We have to change hearts and minds at the grassroots level to end abortion; laws won’t do it. We also have to make it possible for people to afford to have children. I don’t see anything in Trump’s agenda that will do this.

    • Ester, thank you for your comment. This is similar to my position as well. If we make the world better for people to live in the need for abortion will end.

    • Sorry Joe but unless YOU are willing to see the mother gets good care during and after as needed as well as her child you are not Pro-life but Pro-birth! Do not hide behind a title you do not qualify for! If by chance I am wrong and you really do go above and beyond and really are pro-life my apologies but from a lot of your writings it did not sound like you did. So, if YOU do not go that extra mile don’t claim to and let the real pro-life people use that title!
      By the way, if you were as concerned as you claim about babies being aborted they quit being against preventative measures and help to see that those who need and want them have them available. However, the good Catholics don’t believe in doing that do they? You talk about them being all for the orgasm and not caring about getting pregnant but where does that leave you and the Catholic church?
      I also wondering if you even consider those outside of the Catholic church Christians because I was taught they weren’t? Have they changed the teaching on that?

      • Joe, I can’t believe you are accusing me of blackmailing you when all I am doing is trying to get you to see that you should be saying you are pro birth instead of pro life because your concern seems to end when that child is born! I applaud those who do help as much as possible and to me those are the real pro life people. Go ahead and do what you want to do to see those babies are born but do not claim to be pro life unless you actually are! Your choice!

        I never understood why it was a sin to prevent a pregnancy. Can you imagine what this earth would be like if all people followed the Catholic teaching on this? How many children would be raised in poverty, starved to death, and way too often with out parents at too young of age because Mom and Dad just can’t keep up but they don’t dare prevent a pregnancy? I have seen Catholic families struggle to keep going because they didn’t dare use any kind of prevention and the man sure as heck was not going to go without having his pleasure! You don’t want to prevent pregnancies at all and that is what I find very sad as you are part of the abortion problem that you hate so much!
        No, I am not blackmailing you at all I am just trying to get you to quit claiming an honor you don’t really have!

        • What I find is callous is that the Catholic church teaches that to be a good Catholic you do not practice prevention as that is a sin in their eyes. Then it is a sin to abort no matter the circumstance. To tell me I am cold hearted is just the opposite my friend! I care or I would not be having this dialogue with you! I care about the mother and that child before conception, during the pregnancy, during the birth and after the birth!
          You are the one that is playing games with the labels as I am sure it makes you feel more righteous to be able to label yourself as pro life. I am not telling you that you have to do anything except be truthful about yourself and what you are really standing for and what you are really wiling to do to see that your cause is met.
          I can see where that doesn’t seem to be possible for you. You don’t want anyone labeling you or accusing you of things you feel you are not guilty of. Yet you tend to twist what others are saying so that it means something totally different than what was said. You also do not hold back in telling others what they are and aren’t if they don’t follow your exact belief and it usually is not nice.
          You need to come down off of that pedestal you have put yourself on as Christianity is more than fighting for the unborn! Yes, they are very important but so is loving others too and you seem to be very short when it comes to doing that.

          • Also, there is no where in any of what I have said that I told you that you had no right to say one cannot abort!!! That is what I mean about you twisting what people say. Yes, you have every right to say that and can all you want. What you don’t have the right to say is that you are one thing when you are not! Truth is part of being a Christian. Practice a little more of that please!

      • Admit it,, you just get off on telling women what to do. You don’t give a crap about babies if you consider it blackmail to put your money where your mouth is. You’re nothing but a blowhard with EMPTY values.


    • 6 of his appointees come Goldman Sachs. So much for draining the swamp, huh? The others are grossly unqualified by training or experience. But I guess we’ll see…

      • angela. –you don’t like Goldman Sachs, I didn’t like Obama’s picks for the Federal Bench, Cabinet and (unconstitutional ) ‘Czars’. They were socialists, radicals & tax cheats. (7 of his picks were found to be tax evaders.)

        Obama favored liberals from Academia (hot-house flowers) while Trump favors Business Leaders (real World.) One thing good about Business Leaders, is that they are use to compromising, and taking action. [Something that Academics are loathe to do.]

        Those that worked closely with Obama, all complained of being shut out by him. I think Trump will be more open to both sides.

        • Joe, I believe you to be a handsome, intelligent, well-spoken man who knows exactly what he is doing. You seem to want to be seen as the sometimes cruel condescending zealot Catholic poster boy on a Catholic recruitment poster. What I don’t know is why. I do not question your faith or your humanity.

        • I see the difference being people who are programed for funneling money to those at the top of the pyramid, for the profits for the owner where it is meant to go. I see government as flowing in the opposite direction, working in the best interest of all citizens at each and every level from top to bottom, running on all cylinders to be operating as powerfully and effectively as possible for the stability of the pyramid. Trump has worked over 50 years at putting money in his own pocket. He has done well. Others have done much better and others worse. By what we know is that he has used his wealth and power to crush many people on his way. We do know he used a charity for self-dealing and that he is smart for not having to pay taxes with loopholes made by the wealthy for the wealthy. Even his son said being President is a step down for him. He has been his own boss calling the shots always. Are we supposed to believe he agrees, at age 70, to an alternate way of thinking. Do we believe he is never going to talk to his sons about his business just because he pinky swore?

          • Let us remember that he has never released his tax returns and it is reported that has $31.5 billions of dollars in debt.

            Joanne, I would be so very grateful were to you to insert paragraph breaks. It would be a favor to me. Thank you for considering it.

    • Oh he is on his way to killing my husband that has a pre-existing condition. When I have to bury my husband and millions of other people bury their loved ones you think God is going to be proud you support them! Disgusting!

    • Joe, the only thing you’re aiming for is to get two deaths where they would have been one, and more of those because with Paul Ryan and Mike Pence backed by Trump, women will have less access to good health care, which will mean that besides making abortion much more dangerous for those who choose it, even the babies who would be carried to term will have less chance of being born healthy, and women whose only available care comes from the clinics at PP will be more likely to die from what would otherwise be treatable or curable diseases. But, I guess, as long as those women and babies don’t die by legal abortion, their deaths don’t matter to you.
      What I really think is that you couldn’t care less because they don’t fit your need to feel very superior in your Christianity. Sorry, kid, I’ve been there. I’ve been you, basically. It’s not something I recommend to anyone who has a soul.

  11. John P. ………….Good job.

    That is the way I feel about it too. I have no problem with respecting the basic worth and humanity of Christian fundamentalists, conservative evangelicals, and members of the so-called Religious Right. I do not agree with a lot of their beliefs, and I voice that quite a lot. However, my realest, deepest, and most overriding problem with them is the way they misbehave and how so very many of them overtly mistreat other people—and try to take over government offices and agencies to FORCE their religious beliefs on other people who do not agree with or subscribe to them.

    I have not read the story yet, but I saw a quick headline a few moments ago indicating that Donald Trump had just appointed Franklin Graham as the official White House Religion Advisor—or something like that. I have always had a high respect for Billy Graham—who mellowed out a lot in his old age. Franklin Graham is now a right wing religious extremist that the elder Billy Graham at age 75 would have gladly kicked in the pants. Billy is in his 90s now and barely coherent—if coherent at all. In my opinion, Franklin plays a game with the elder Billy Graham and the American public. I believe it goes something like this:

    “Daddy? Daddy? Daddy? Wake up Daddy!!! Should all gay people be burned at the stake?” (Nearly brain dead Billy grunts one time—probably for purely respiratory reasons). The next day the “Charlotte Observer” runs a headline reading:

    “Billy Graham Approves Burning Gay People at Stake”

    In my honest opinion, Franklin Graham and Trump combined represent a clear and present danger to to the safety and religious freedom of all nonfundie Christians and all nonChristians. The mess for all of us begins Friday of next week.

    Stay vigilant. Do not be afraid to speak out.

  12. It must be stressful for the commentator – reality is harsh – identity politics is a failure.

    Interesting how John demands “inclusion” on one hand and then on the other, in his typical self righteous indignation, “excludes”.

    Hypocritically, only John’s feelings and warped values are worthy of a place at the table.

    Don’t be offended if you don’t get an invite…he’s serving left overs again.

    • anonymous. — This past election marked ‘The End of Identity Liberalism.’

      [I’m borrowing from Mark Lila here] He said, “In recent years, American Liberalism has slipped uno a kind of moral panic about racial, gender & sexual identity that has distorted liberalism’s message and prevented it from becoming a unifying force capable of governing.”

      He goes on to say, ‘focusing our awareness on diversity, and ‘celebrating’ all our differences , is a splendid principle of moral pedagogy –but disastrous as a foundation for democratic politics in our ideological age. ”

      What could post-Identity- Liberalism look like? Mr Lilla says, “It would emphasize that democracy is not only about rights; it also confers duties on its citizens, such as the duties to keep informed and vote. A post-identity liberal press would begin educating itself about parts of the country that have been ignored, and about what matters there, especially religion. And it would take seriously its responsibility to educate Americans about the major forces shaping world politics, especially their historical dimension.”

      • Leslie – I have not read the work of Mark Lila. I suspect his observations will be tested over the course of time.
        I do believe we have entered into new cultural shift as the “something for nothing” mind set is identified for what it is.
        Pew research seems to support this with their examination of middle school, high school and college student attitudes regarding self worth and personal responsibility.
        IMO, I think the vast majority of Americans are fed up with the inequalities, corruption and duplicity of the federal welfare state.
        I find it pathetic, how those who scream for diversity, do so based on what they expect to get and then give no appreciation or respect to those who provide. This is the liberalism today and it’s shame – if you really examine political liberalism.

      • Charles, I am.
        Yes, I just have a hard time swallowing what he dishes out.
        With respect to John P. – he is commentator, expressing his opinion.
        Yet, I will always defend his right for expression over the tyranny of censure.

  13. People will have to get used to the fact that being gay is not sinful. it is part of the diverse fabric of human sexuality.

    I don’t think anyone can name one reason how being gay can be harmful.

      • Nah I am serious if we didn’t have any Bibles then no one could make up interpretations and lie about people’s hearts or intentions or whether they are Christian or not and gay people would be accepted without question. Because there is nothing wrong with the way we love.

        • I love the Bible and all but sometimes I wish it didn’t exist, then no one could use it to shame me. Most gay atheists I know are much more well adjusted in life than I am.

          • The Real Joe Catholic, no one can shame you unless you participate in the shaming. They can try and they can be right nasty about it, but they will only succeed if you allow it.

            Personally, their attempts to shame you says a lot more about their hardness of heart than it says about your life. Which was given to you by God, and you are created in that image and likeness as is every single human being who ever lives, lives now, or will live in the future.

            • Tell that to lgbt youth.
              I know what you are saying and you are trying to be helpful but young hearts are being destroyed by the shaming of the church.

              • I know they are. But I was addressing my comments to you only.

                What certain people do to LGBT kids is despicable. Adolescence is hard enough without any extra crap thrown in.

                    • Question: what options does a 16 year old transgender person have if they are taken out of public school by their parents in order to separate them from students who are supporting their alternative lifestyle? A friend of my daughter is caught up in these circumstances and we don’t know what to do, or what we can do.

                    • I don’t know James contact a LGBTQ Christian organization in your area I guess ? Be a friend to them and their family. They all need support and love and friendship and prayers. God Bless everyone .

                    • Dear James Dosher:

                      ‘A friend of my daughter is caught up in these circumstances and we don’t know what to do, or what we can do.’

                      At this point, I’m not sure that there is much you can do. While this girl remains a minor, her parents will have near complete control over her life.

                      But she won’t remain a minor for long. When the comes of age, her parents may well discover that they have lost a daughter forever.

                      They may have long to regret what they have done…

            • you sure are obsessed with sins and sinning. I think you are so focused on one tree that you miss the forest completely.

              • but JC you can’t chop the tree down can you ?

                I apologize for butting in but think about it, if God is making RJC stand nothing you can do will make him fall.

                I got that from the Bible 😀

        • Oh, I assure you, The Real Joe Catholic, people may well choose to tell you all the ways in which the Bible condemns homosexuality.

          Not I, however, as I believe that people are exactly as it delights God to create them.

    • I would not ask anyone to go against thier own conscience in terms of what they believe or what thier faith demands (as long as it does no harm to others) However my take on the catechism is that it is a man made burden. In terms of celibacy if the Catholic Church is going lift the mandate for priests due to the terrible impact of sexual repression causing abuse and sexual acting out, they will have to seriously consider doing the same for gay Christians.

      • Furthermore it is no good for man to be alone applies in the same context to LGBT people as it does to straight people. LGBT persons can have faithful marriages

        • Okay I will go one step further.

          There are progressive voices in the Catholic Church. I have no idea why you dispute this. You should know better. Anyways in the city I live in there is an inclusive Catholic church . Although there is some friction between it and other parishes they are presently getting along.

          Try to wrap your head around this. I have been trying to tell you all along but you are not listening. I have met Catholics like you and they are the one’s causing problems and getting upset but catholics are genuinely peaceable and looking to find ways to include LGBT christians. There are at least a hundred gay friendly Catholic churches in America. There are conversations and groups meeting to discuss these issues. Even the hardline traditionalist know there are liberal and progressive voices in the Catholic church, so why do you continue to deny this?

            • Not all catholic churches have gay picnics or gay events for gay christians, so they are not all gay friendly in the way I am meaning inclusivity.

              Check out some of those churches, they actively advertise inviting people from the gay community not just tolerating them as sinners like you do.

          • I understand that you are adhering to a traditional orthodoxy however the Catholic church that is- now- is not the same as it was- at the beginning of the church- with the Apostles. It has changed and will continue to change despite dogma. The unfortunate reality of dogma is it’s psychological necessity in religion. Human beings need dogma to train their brains to focus on a truth yet we don’t actually know any – truths – for certain. What Jesus taught- was for us to have FAITH, not certainty and certainly not dogma, which makes the mind stubborn- the opposite of what Jesus wanted.

            Anyways thanks for the discussion and again I appreciate your thoughtfulness. Take care.

            Until we chat again, God Bless.

            • Good article. A Cardinal said this, “Monday’s document seemed to shift the tone of the church toward gay people, asking if the church was welcoming them and “guaranteeing them a space of fraternity in our community.” Addressing that Friday, Marx said: “homosexuals are not condemned by the church for their sexual orientation.”

              Making a difference between gay couples who have monogamous relationships for decades and gay persons who are promiscuous, Marx continued: “I cannot simply say that everything is black or everything is white.”

              “We cannot say that since you are homosexual, you cannot experience the Gospel,” Marx said. “This is impossible to me.”

              Wow, awesome to know !!

            • This statement in the article blew me away, written by a Catholic Cardinal !

              “Making a difference between gay couples who have monogamous relationships for decades and gay persons who are promiscuous, ”

              There is hope for understanding in the church!! This is what I have been saying for years.

      • Celibacy is a result of the impact of the church with Hellenistic dualism. Celibacy is more of a Gnostic doctrine, than Christian. The Christian doctrine is chastity which any of us can embrace.

        Human sexuality is celebrated in the Hebrew Scriptures. Adam and Eve, Jacob laboring fourteen years for his Rebecca, the love between Jonathan and David, the Song of Solomon.

    • I have done all of that already and I don’t read any evidence that indicates that the sexual act is only for straight people.

    • Dear Joe Catholic:

      Those with same-sex attractions who desire to be practicing Christians are called to a life of celibacy as is the heterosexual who is unmarried.

      Presuming that marriage is God’s answer to those lacking the gift/grace of self-control [1Co 7:5-9], has the Church anywhere addressed the point that God obviously gave that gift to all gay/lesbian people?

    • Quick question– If the Roman Catholic Church is not filled with the rules of men (exclusively men, btw), then why is there a need for a catechism at all, especially one that has numbered entries in the thousands?

  14. This is MAGNIFICIENT. MAGNIFICIENT. Thank you again, John P.

    Sadly, the people who most need to hear your words have their hearts closed off to the truth you speak.

    I was particularly moved by “The contention for the past year has been that all political perspectives are valid, but I won’t consent to that and it’s a matter of personal safety. No individual groups of white people are explicitly, measurably endangered by a Progressive platform, they receive the same consideration. But I can illustrate the specific ways people of color, immigrants, Muslims, women, and the LGBTQ community are less safe and less represented by the coming Administration, which is already by its conduct, a movement of exclusion. ”

    We Progressives are not perfect but then we have never claimed to be. We have always claimed to be flawed human beings. But we do strive for compassion.

    Sometime in Feb I’ll be leading a discussion of the book 12 Steps to a Compassionate Life on Facebook. The group is called Compassion Reading Group.

    It’s one of the ways I am resisting the evil that is the new administration. All are welcome, unless you are a troll and I will recognize trolls immediately, I am certain.

      • Good evening to you also, distinguished author. I feared as much about the song and dance.

        It’s pouring down rain here, the kind that causes flash floods in the streets, back up in the drainage systems, and general calamity on our roads and freeways. Staying inside where it is dry.

          • Thank you, RJC, thank you.

            I have noticed on occasion that weather here makes the international news because rain here can be so dangerous.

            • Anonymous, to some of us, everyone’s opinion matters.

              The weather report provided a personal flair I enjoyed. If you didn’t … well, Ms. Amalfitano wasn’t precisely addressing you, was she?

              If it matters, Monday it was nearly zero degrees with ice on the ground and today it was in the 70’s. Welcome to the wacky weather of central North Carolina.

              Ms. Amalfitano, stay high & dry and keep shooting from the soul.

              • Mr. Dosher, I will. Fortunately for me I live at the top of a very high hill. Or mesa, as they are called.

                At the bottom of the hill, when I was on my way home, when the rain was coming down the hardest, I was stopped for a light and observed a long olive green bundle next to a shopping cart full of unprotected personal possessions. Right next to a curb. I could not tell if it was a body or not but I called 911. The dispatcher assured me I was right to call 911 because a person could drown like that.

                Sadly, I know from past experience with the comments that there those who read and post comments in disagreement with John P and other progressives who would not have called 911. There are, of course, those that disagree with John P who would have called.

                Thing is, from my perspective the topic that John writes about the most is compassion.

                We need much more of it in this world. Much, much more.

                • People can surprise you. When I was a Rural Courier for the USPS, myself and other RC’s made sure to check up on our elderly people – especially the ones living alone – during the winter months. To make sure their family was looking in on them, their power was on and they had food. We just did it.

                  There was no Federal directive and we weren’t being paid by the hour. It was the humane thing to do and we were the people in the best place to do some good.

                  Still, we should never pass on the burden of looking out for our fellows in the blind acceptance someone else will pick up the slack. If we can do good, why shouldn’t we?

                  • In these days of the heresy known as the prosperity gospel, there are many people who think if someone is poor it is their own fault because God blesses the godly with wealth beyond the dreams of avarice. And so they would turn their backs on the homeless, those if us who are disabled and handicapped.

                    My USPS delivery person is a Muslim who immigrated here from Iran. He is a sweet, kind young man.

                    The first time we met was at the boxes and he noted my cane. A week or so later he showed up at my door with all the mail I hadn’t collected because it hurt too much to walk the fifty feet. He wanted to know that I was ok and he has been checking up on me once a week ever since.

                    Compassion is part of the image and likeness of God and all of us share in the Imagio Dei be we RC, Episcopalian (me), Muslim, Wiccan, atheist, Asatruar, himanist… … ….

                    • “These days”? I recall that back in the 1980’s too. There has always been folks spouting off the “God must love me cause I’m rich” doctrine to whomever wanted to believe it.

                      My first crisis of faith came over seeing the wealth of my church and the poverty not two blocks away. I was Chief Altar Boy and I had the misfortune to witness our Treasury Committee meeting. They were all about the appearance of the church and not about the Good Works which needed doing.

                      I talked to the junior priest about it. I was 18. It took a few years for the message to sink in that live is not 100% Good, or Evil. Expecting it to be that way is a mistake. We should work toward the Good yet not lose heart when things aren’t perfect.

                      I’m an Episcopalian too, though I should work harder at it.

              • James – I’m so very pleased you received a weather update….I’m certain it will prove useful for your purposes in NC.

                Since you seem to think one must be addressed – to reply….I trust you will monitor all here and remind them of your oversight and your requirement for posting a response.

                • SWEET!!! But wait … this isn’t your site so you can’t give me any authority to … Hey! I think you’ve been leading me on, Anonymous. That’s just mean. 3:)

                  • for all I know, you could be the blog owner….if so, you have the power and right to manage “your” blog in any manner you see fit.
                    If not, your sense of courtesy and decency and dislike of my “meanness” reflects an unawareness of the historical posts from – dare I say – Gloriamarie.
                    BTW, go Heels!

        • Wow it must really bother you ….. she can do what ever she feels like and yes the sun does rise with her and set just as it does for all of us ! Enjoy it!

          • perhaps when the falsehoods, half-truths, misrepresentations, misdirections, hidden false assumptions and sophistry cease – I will extend an even greater level of courtesy to the Benedictine, Utilitarian, Episcopalian, mystic and social parasite who would have you believe she has the right to take what you earn in the name of her progressive compassion.

              • Charles – in the past I have agreed (and said so) with some of your observations – there are times you make comments that are not only sound but insightful however, I think you diminish your message, in part, with your use of irrational generalizations and a personal intolerance towards a large group of people.
                Regardless and as you have said to me and for that matter others – you don’t “give a flying sh*t what I think about anything”.

            • My, my my, aren’t you just a precious little thing! You do know that Ayn Rand was a Russian atheist who ended up sick and miserable and living off of welfare, right? And it seems to me that you are the social parasite, mucking up conversations with hateful and inflammatory comments. Gloriamarie on the other hand is quite sociable, kind and often posts uplifting quotations from diverse sources. That she is disabled does not lessen her worth in Our Creator’s eyes. Worth is measured in many ways; using dollars to determine human worth seems one of the worst. Jesus depended on the kindness of strangers to provide food and shelter for a company of 13 who did no “work” in the human sense as the greatest Work ever done unfolded. Spiritual nourishment for us, physical nourishment and protection for them. Perhaps one should depend more upon sacred writings for spiritual nourishment rather than novels most of us have matured past.

                  • Thank you. Here’s a quote for you

                    “You must lay your lives on the altar of social change so that wherever you are there the Kingdom of God is at hand!”

                    — Howard Thurman in A Strange Freedom by Howard Thurman

              • well done A. Nonymous….you put together a string of thoughts without resorting vulgarity.
                Your support of Amalfitano is without question your prerogative and I encourage you to keep doing so.

                • “Blessed are those for whom Easter is…
                  not a hunt, but a find;
                  not a greeting, but a proclamation;
                  not outward fashions, but inward grace;
                  not a day, but an eternity.”
                  Anderson Luis de Abreu Oliveira

                  • Gloriamarie, I lost the thread but thanks for noticing my sweetie pie, button nose, babykins Smokey the Bandit, as a kitten. 🙂

                    • Zaklog the Adorable, as one whose life is immeasurably enriched by fur persons of the feline persuasion, I was compelled to notice.

                • Where and how did I insult Jesus? When I said He did no work in human sense? It is assumed He was trained as carpenter by Joseph and that He supported by it prior to beginning to travel and spread His Gospel. During those years He spread His message, He was supported by His followers, not by His own physical labor. He was homeless and owned naught but the clothes He wore. He paid His taxes by pulling the coin from the mouth of a fish and fed 5000 with 5 loaves and 2 fishes. He both depended upon and gave kindness to strangers. Furthermore, He calls upon us to do likewise. I find nothing insulting in any of this; I find it inspiring. That you would see insult is telling.

  15. John,
    Thank you for your blog and for helping to restore my faith. I find myself looking forward to your daily post. For me, your writings are a rainbow after the storm. Thank you!

  16. One of the beauties of the Catholic faith are the seven sacraments. The one that is perhaps the most divine and important is that of Penance. The ability to be granted absolution for your sins, if you are truly repentant. I think more people should understand the importance of this sacrament, and realize that one can redeem themselves. To all of you who have hate and bigotry in your lives. Pray for forgiveness; both for yourselves and for others. We cannot judge others, only God can.

  17. James Dosher, the comment thread ran out on me and so I have reported your question.

    JANUARY 12, 2017 AT 9:10 PM
    Question: what options does a 16 year old transgender person have if they are taken out of public school by their parents in order to separate them from students who are supporting their alternative lifestyle? A friend of my daughter is caught up in these circumstances and we don’t know what to do, or what we can do.

    First of all, I thank God that transgender people can now become the gender they were meant to be. I think people get born into the wrong bodies because of sin in the world. And we all know, there is a lot of sin in the world even if we don’t all agree on a list of sins.

    I think that family needs to be family counseling with a board certified therapist. That 16 year old person would do well with a private therapist who is not the family therapist.

    It sounds to me as if the parents do not approve of their transgender child, instead of loving their child unconditionally for whoever that child happens to be. They also need to cease to project their issues onto the child because it is going to cause a possibly irreversible rift because, in two years, that child is an adult and will remember all too clearly how the parents treated the 16 year old.

    There is probably more I could say but I hope this is of some help and food for thought.

    • My wife and I raised our children to be forthright and fearless about who they are including their sexuality. Unfortunately when my daughter and her friends formed and LGBTQ club at their High School, it brought matters to a head with him and his family. They have been friends since Middle School so this has been something the student has been dealing with personally with for some time. Ugh.

      • How sad and confusing for your daughter and her friends. It is mind boggling that some adults have conditions on their love which shows that maybe it was never love at all. How can your daughter, who was raised with unconditional love, process this? Parenting is hard – no magic formula. Most of us just cross our fingers and take the leap. Is it luck when they turn out to be a good person or is it the way we love them?

        • Eyes wide open. We teach our children the world can be an unfair place, people can make life changing decisions for irrational, hateful reasons and you do what you can with what you have on hand.

          Psychologically speaking, the first person you save is yourself. You must have a strong foundation you believe in. You must have faith in yourself and the strength of yours beliefs. Never stop learning and testing yourself and don’t be afraid to be tested. From trial come greater strength.

          Once you are confident with who you are, you can truly help others. Go forth with the understanding that every person must find that internal strength and while we can provide aid, shelter, comfort and companionship, the ultimate struggle is theirs.

          Be open and honest with who you are. People will rally and take comfort from this display and therefore be more honest with themselves. Expect to be challenged for the stances you take. No one is universally popular. Being true to your heart means you will make enemies as well as friends.

          The real enemy of Good is not Evil, it is Banality ~ the uncaring nature which is all to easy to assume. Evil is easy to spot and counter. Convincing people they need to care … that is much harder. If you find yourself not giving a damn what happens to any creature, you might want to ask yourself why you feel that way.

          Understand your resources are finite. You cannot save everyone, or win every battle. Keep true to yourself and go from there.

          Feel free to cry ~ there is nothing wrong with tears of pain, sadness and joy.

          Feel free to laugh if you feel like it. It is a joyous noise and nothing which needs an explanation.

          Honesty is NOT always the best policy. It is simply easier to keep up with the truth than with your lies.

          Treat your body like a Temple. It is the only one God has given you, so treat it with respect.

          There will come a time when nothing your parents say will make sense. Then you will children of your own and everything we have told you will make sense again.

          Finally ~ expect us to treat your children like little Angels … despite you both knowing we know better and recalling us never treating you this nicely. It is unfair, we are now grandparents, so get over it.

  18. I am glad for this student that has support from your daughter and her friends. I hope there is other support. I will pray for this.

    Over the years I’ve seen some tragic things happen with families. Families who can’t handle it when their child came out as lesbian or gay. I personally don’t know anyone with a sixteen-year-old transgendered child but I have plenty of transgendered adult friends who have shared their experiences.

    I have known at least seven young people seek emancipation from their parents because of the parents’ inability to accept their kids as homosexual or transgendered.

    Other kids have moved in with relatives who were more supportive. Or close family friends.

    Whichever way, it is devastating to all so I will pray that your daughter’s friend’s parents can accept the reality of the situation for what it is and demand it be what they think it should be.

    Radical Acceptance is what is needed. Radical meaning a 100% commitment to accept that which cannot be changed. It is what it is. It doesn’t mean approve or disapprove, it just means accept.

    And maybe remember how much they love their child.

    • I’m 52 and all the transgender people I’ve dealt with personally basically lived in denial their earlier years and didn’t admit to who they really were until they were in their mid-twenties. One good friend, a transgender-male-to-female, even had a straight relationship and a daughter, she tried so hard to be “normal”.

      Others suffered through abusive relationships and a huge helping of self-loathing.

      That is why I worry for this friend of my daughter ~ some of the horror stories of children being forced to conform. The thing is, I firmly believe if most people who don’t believe that transgender is possible would sit down and talk for an hour with a transgender person about who they are and how they feel, it would totally change their minds.

      My first time … I’m sitting there, talking to this guy, but every other social clue is telling me I’m talking with a girl. The posture, body psychology and speech patterns were all feminine. That’s when I became a believer, so to speak. It was a woman’s soul trapped a man’s body.

      And I wonder how the parents cannot accept this …

      • One thing that gives me hope for the young woman is that it is 2017 and more and more of us understand better about what it means to be transgender. I was clueless when I meant my first transgendered person in the 1970s. But the relief to come out was patent and that was what convinced me. A friend of mine came out as lesbian in our very conservative evangelical Christian college and her relief at the discovery was visceral.

        There probably always will be people who can’t accept it. When they are men I wonder if they are really deep in the closet themselves or are afraid of being raped. As we women grow up with that fear and manage to live our lives and enjoy sex, I want to say “grow up already” and to the first group, the ones who so vociferously spew Bible verses, I want to invite them to come out and experience the irrepressible joy of the truth setting one free.

        Again, my prayers for this family.

  19. James Dosher, another comment thread came to an end so here it is re-posted…

    JANUARY 12, 2017 AT 10:35 PM
    “These days”? I recall that back in the 1980’s too. There has always been folks spouting off the “God must love me cause I’m rich” doctrine to whomever wanted to believe it.

    My first crisis of faith came over seeing the wealth of my church and the poverty not two blocks away. I was Chief Altar Boy and I had the misfortune to witness our Treasury Committee meeting. They were all about the appearance of the church and not about the Good Works which needed doing.

    I talked to the junior priest about it. I was 18. It took a few years for the message to sink in that live is not 100% Good, or Evil. Expecting it to be that way is a mistake. We should work toward the Good yet not lose heart when things aren’t perfect.

    I’m an Episcopalian too, though I should work harder at it.


    I first heard about the prosperity gospel in connection with Oral Roberts University in 1974. At the time evangelicals were challenging it as heresy but I daresay it was too seductive. It really took off during the Reagan years and has become a Great Big Honkin’ Huge Heresy.

    My crisis of faith was Rosa Parks. My particular RC parish was all white, mostly Italian, who hated “the coloreds.” I simply could not understand what difference skin color made if God created humanity and said it was good. Had some bad years, stumbled around, and landed solidly in The Episcopal Church which is the best of all worlds in my opinion. Theologically it is the best of Catholicism, best of Orthodoxy, best of Protestantism. In my opinion.

    A friend of mine told me several decades ago and it is as true now as it was then “Gloriamarie, we can’t expect Christians to act like Christians. We can only rejoice when they do.” That has gotten me through several bad moments, sometimes the moments are longer than others, though.

    • Ms. Amalfitano, just to be clear – I thought you knew as it came up in an earlier thread. While I write ‘normal’ stuff now, I got my start in ‘erotic’ literature. Whoops. Didn’t mean to upset you.

      I’m an Episcopalian because when my Mother attended UNC, the Episcopal was close to the Women’s dorm while the Baptist Chapel was across campus. So, despite being raised Southern Baptist, she started going to the Episcopal Chapel, liked it and here I am. Not nearly as impressive as your journey though Mom has since gone on to becoming a Deacon in the Church ~ Joy M. Dosher.

      • Oh, I wasn’t upset for me, merely concerned that you had been plagarized and if you haven’t, well and good. And also I am not offended. Calliope, Euterpe, Thalia, and Erato will take us writers where they will.

        I must apologize, but I can’t read every single comment that is posted. So are you James M. Dosher author of The Life as a New Hire and Nanites: The Awakenings? I love science fiction and the paranormal. But I can’t read horror because I am much too visually oriented. Nanites: The Awakenings… is that horror or paranormal?

        I don’t understand this sentence “Not nearly as impressive as your journey though Mom has since gone on to becoming a Deacon in the Church ~ Joy M. Dosher.” If you mother is a deacon, I’m impressed. Also not sure what you know of my journey. Have you looked at my blog?

        I love the pragmatism where your mom chose to worship.

        • Nanites is paranormal, not horror. It really centers on personal relationships and the consequences of actions, both intentional and unintentional, people take. I like writing the protagonist as she doesn’t want to be ‘special’, but can’t sit back and let bad things happen when she can do something about it.

          Life as a New Hire is ‘suspense, secret society’ kind of stuff. While the women of Havenstone may well come off (cough, cough) as dangerously deranged at the start, I hope the mythology behind their development will make more sense as the story develops … without giving too much away. There may be times when you want to yank the protagonist out of the pages and beat him with a stick too, but trust me ~ the story has karma in it.

          I have not read your blog. I inferred a journey from your mention about your confrontation with Human face of faith starting with Rosa Parks and moving on from your word selection from there. If you tell me where your blog is, I’ll happily take a look.

          I’m currently avoiding Facebook … because I should be writing … ugh …

            • Though I feel Ms. Amalfitano and I disagree on some key issues, in my opinion we both agree it is never more relevant than now for each of us to re-examine our humanity and act on an individual level, whether it is to resist, or work with, the oncoming Administration. What truly matters is people, the good they can do and that what they can accomplish is indeed for the best. I’m sure she has her own version of the result of our exchanges.

              • LOL Have my own view? How well you know me. LOL

                I confess, I started out, Mr. Dosher, thinking you were someone who came here merely to troll, a believer in fake news, etc. I confess after a couple of exchanges that I ceased to read what you wrote until something caught my eye yesterday and I wondered if I had misjudged you. I believe I have, I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

                I very much appreciate the way you speak to all in respectful and validating terms. You don’t call people names when you disagree with them. I struggle to withstand that temptation myself.

                ” it is never more relevant than now for each of us to re-examine our humanity and act on an individual level” Yes, I do very strongly believe that.

                “whether it is to resist, or work with, the oncoming Administration. What truly matters is people, the good they can do and that what they can accomplish is indeed for the best. ”

                However, I also believe that if we are to do our very best then we must resist the new administration.

                I believe with all my heart, soul, spirit, mind that when we love God with every fiber of our being, then we must also love our neighbors and that means we must care for the sick, clothe the naked, feed the hungry, provide for needs so that all people thrive.

                I believe the overwhelming witness of the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament is that this love of neighbor must be both on the individual and corporate levels. Especially since individuals are not meeting 100% of the need, then the government must be involved. I believe the Bible teaches us that wealth must be re-distributed so that every single need is met all over the world.

                I have believed this since I was a child and went to school with children poorer than I. Since I was a little girl, I have believed that no one has a right to any luxuries at all as long as there are people in need.

                If that mean higher taxes on some so that we can increase the SNAP benefits so that people could afford to buy wholesome, healthful expensive food such as quality fruits and veggies as well as protein, then so be it, even if someone then can’t afford to buy a Lamborghini.

                If that means some people pay higher insurance premiums so other people can have health care, so be it, even if some people can’t take a world cruise.

                If we truly claim to love God with every fiber of our being, how can we spend so much time arguing over issues that are not meeting needs?

                If we truly claim to be a part of the Body of Christ, how can we choose to deny people what they need to thrive?

                Because the truth of the matter is that there are a whole lot of citizens of the USA who are barely surviving, let alone thriving.

                People are people are people exactly as it delighted the Most High to create them. Our job is to love them, no matter who they are, where they are, what color their skin is, what religion or philosophy they espouse, whether they are our enemies or our friends, regardles of which gender they like to have sex with, what country they are from.

                Our job as Christians to have the love of God be so vast that it must spill out of our very pores to embrace ALL of humanity.

                I know there are people on this blog who are not my fans, and I am pretty sure someone is going to say something about how self-serving I am because I live in poverty. Well, I do live in poverty such that I have to go to foodbanks to get groceries and the food available there is the worst for my diabetes which is getting worse. I can’t afford the food with which I could manage my diabetes: protein and veggies. And, yes, I have been very blessed by people on this blog who have sent me groceries from my Amazon grocery wishlist as Christmas presents. And, yes, Christmas is not the only time of year I need groceries.

                However, I have only been living in poverty since Feb, 1995, and before that I lived as though I were in poverty so I could give to others. So, yes, I have practiced what I preach even though right now, I am not able to.

                • It is difficult for me to provide forgiveness to someone who has brought enlightenment to my life. I am the better man for conversing with you. Still, if this is your wish, I gladly give it, Ms. Amalfitano.

                  A problem with social media in general is it spawns trolls to the point we come to expect them. It often takes putting on the ‘hip-waders’ to muck about and get past them. I find it worth the effort and I am glad you gave me a second glance. Truly.

                  And … Woman! You’ve been living in poverty for 21 years? That is hardly an ‘only’ in anyone’s book. Sane folk call that living life up to your college graduation. In government service, that permits you to retire with something like 1/3 your salary as a Pension. I believe the longest serving Japanese soldier in WWII only lasted about decade longer … all alone in the Philippine jungles.

                  In matters of charity – this is what I was told: “Give what you can spare because that may very well be what another needs.”
                  Some people give of their time, others money, or goods. I believe what matters is the depth of the giving.

                  Also as a GSA – give underwear. All clothing centers for the poor, homeless and crisis centers need underwear. It is something they get the least of yet need the most. If you are buying a new pack and can afford two, buy the second set and drop it off at your neighborhood homeless shelter, crisis shelter, or Goodwill. It really helps.

                  • Thank you for your forgiveness, I too am glad we gave each other a second chance.

                    Yes, I’ve been disabled for almost 22 years now. It calls for creativity.

                    I get food at the foodbanks. There is even a foodbank for the cats’ needs. They even get a new toy every month.

                    As a man you might not think of it, but women’s shelters can really use feminine hygiene products and diapers.

                    • Yep. I hadn’t considered feminine hygiene products.

                      In modern parlance, it is how a woman knows her boyfriend loves her ~ he’ll go to the store to get her such things, risking the ‘exposure’ doing so out of love. Some guys still get freaked out by it all.

                      I’ve been disabled since 2006 – bipolar. Yes, I’m a nut.


                      Anonymous dropped a ‘turd’ … I’m sure you will deal with it. Still …

                      I would point out in general that having pets can often be the difference between keeping it together and losing it. Pets are like little children who never grow up and never leave home.

                      Also, you can buy plenty of used paperback books for less than $1 at used book stores plus most public library systems have sales once a year to sell of old stock for pennies on the dollar. Missing a dinner a week can net you a ‘ton of books’. Been there, done that, have the walls full of bookshelves to prove it … you chuckle-head.

                      Just saying.

                • Funny, how you equate a condition (poverty) with a behavior (self serving) and yet, you can afford to feed pets….and “buy”, as you commented in the past; – “tons of books”.

                  Here’s an idea, write a book, you can call it: “Advanced Techniques for Gaming the System, Panhandling Blogs and Using Religious Guilt to Fund a Self Serving Lifestyle”.
                  I’m sure it will be a best seller.

          • Thanks for explaining about your work.

            You don’t have a FB group to promote your writing? I thought all writers were doing that these days.

            My blog is something of an embarrassment because it shows clearly I don’t know very much about how to work one of these computer gizmos. I figured out somethings, but I don’t know how to fix others. It’s at


            As for my journey, yes, I can see how you might infer some things.

            Oh what a shame, the public library here doesn’t have any of your books.

            • No, I don’t have an FB group. I’m a lousy businessman.

              Now the wife asks what I’m doing … so I tell her. She asks why I don’t have a FB page as well. After some hasty deliberation, I respond, “because you haven’t made one for me yet.”

              She smirks. She is the more technically adept of the two of us, by far to the point I even use her e-mail address. I’m a IT neanderthal.

              I took a quick look at your blog as well. I really liked Chapter 66: On the Porters of the Monastery. We never know who is at the door, do we?

              My books in the library? Eeeekkk!!!! Have you read any of them yet? Where would the library put them?

              • Mr. Dosher, I am for whom to computer is an arcance gnosis which mysteries have yet to be vouchsafed unto me and even I can create a FB group.

                I have four:
                Celebrating What Christians Have in Common

                Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff

                Painting the Mystery

                Compassion Reading Group

                Although I did have some help with Painting the Mystery as I could never have made that banner or done the nice lettering. That group is about the icons I write.

                Nope. We never know who is at the door. Could even be Jesus or angels of whom we are unaware.

                As for where the library would put your books… here in my little branch, all fiction is shelved alphabetically regardless of genre. At the Central Library downtown and the larger branches, some of your books would be filed with Mystery and others with Science Fiction and Fantasy.

                You sweet, dear man, I only found out you were an author yesterday so no, I haven’t read any. I haven’t been able to afford any books for years so I try to stay out of bookstores.

                Someone gave me a kindle a few years ago and I read free books or library books on that but I have been quite disgusted with the poor quality of free books. Poor writing, no editing or proofreading, lousy grammar, regretable syntax… … I am a stern critic, my friend.

                • I’ll contact you on FB and send you Nanites if you are still interested – Widows format. No charge. I remain a lousy businessman. 😀

                  • Widows format? If you mean Windows, please ask your IT proficient wife if that is compatible with MAC OS Sierra. The computer I was given five years ago is a MacBook Air.

    • Joe Catholic … what? For the majority of its existence the Catholic Church has been associated with SQUASHING Civil Rights, not promoting them. There was a reason why 18th, 19th and 20th century revolutions usually started with confiscated Church lands (there was so much of it) and executing priests (as they were considered counter-revolutionaries).

      Whatever dogma they were spouting wasn’t the reality in the Land. The upper tier of the Catholic Church was firmly entrenched with some of the most regressive regimes in Europe, Africa and the Americas. When individual, or small groups of priests rallied to the cause of the oppressed, they were the ones censored by the Bishops, Cardinals and Popes.

      Yes, in the 1960’s this began to change, but it is very credible to believe a local priest would have been in line with the community viewpoint on racism during the period which is to say ~ anti-Black. If anything, look at the rioting in Boston in the 1970’s. The anti-Black sentiment in the South is … well established.

      The 21st century Catholic Church is a far more socially conscious organization, but it is hardly monolithic how it handles numerous issues and it is reasonable to believe a person could find those contradictions to be something to cause them spiritual turmoil. Just perhaps.

      • Joe Catholic, the Catholic Church also kept the torch of knowledge alive in the West during the Dark Ages. The Church founded many of the Universities which continue on in various forms to this day. We wouldn’t have our democratic traditions if not for the Church and those who toiled away unheralded in monasteries while the world was bathed in barbarism around them.

        The Church also played a role in the revival of trade in the Medieval Period. Churchmen in the courts of nobles and kings spread the rule of law. Much good was done and we should remember that.

        We should also recall priests, nuns and other Catholic officials murdered by both Right-wing and Left-wing tyrannies in the last century in the pursuit of Human Rights. Just recently I read about the dedicated of Catholic laymen ~ the Community of Sant’Egidio ~ in bringing peace to Mozambique.

        The Catholic Church doesn’t need an apologist as far as I am concerned. Any organization of a certain size gives way to a degree of corruption not matter how grand the ambition. The Church is doing a much, much better job promoting Christ’s Message today than say … in the 15th century.

        In my previous post I wanted to point out ‘official doctrine’ and actual policy could be two different things within the Catholic Church as history has shown us. To expect the Church to be perfect is insane. It exists in the mortal world, run by mortal men so imperfections are to be expected.

        Considering the role the Catholic Church has played over the past few decades working with other denominations in uniting the Eucharist and working as peacemakers around the globe, there is much to be proud of.

    • Joe Catholic you just contradicted yourself. You said your parish hated black people then you said the catholic church is not the slightest bit racist ! This is why I have trouble with the things you write. So which is it?

  20. This is an article I can get behind from this Blog Host…

    NO ONE should be bullied, set apart, abused or denied rights because of their color, religion, sexual affiliation, or their personal beliefs.

    Yes, all PEOPLE should be treated equally, and have equal rights…there is no excuse to abuse or mistreat or bully anyone.
    We live in a free contry..and that is how we should be treated.
    I know that there are very differing opinions on gay relationships, gay marriage, and abortion. I know what the Bible says about gay relations…I try to live my life by The Bible, and in a way that I hope makes Jesus Proud of me. I treat others as I want to be treated, and hope for the same in return. I fell that only Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ has the right to judge any of us…he gave his Life for Our Sins so that we should be forgiven…
    I believe that Jesus wants us to treat and respect ALL! Yes, I know that The Bible says that being gay is a sin, but how do you treat a gay person badly for a choice that they have made…we all make choices in life that others would not agree with…or as some believe some did not make the choice to be gay, it is just how they were made…and if that is the case how do you treat someone badly for how they were made??? My son is Autistic, he did not ask for that, that is how he was made…should he be treated badly because of that? I am not by the way comparing Autism to being Gay…was just giving a point.
    I may be an unusual Republican to some, I believe that it is a right for a women to choose…I don’t believe that abortion should be used as a method of birth control, I don’t agree with late term abortion, however if the mother’s life were in danger that would certianly have to come into what could be a late term abortion if that mother were farther along than 3 months in her pregnancy…I was very ill during my pregnancy and almost died during labor…my husband was asked who the drs wanted him to save if it came down to it…me or our baby. My husband chose me, and I Thank God he did not have to actually use that choice…on top of that I was told not to get pregnant again, because it would be too high risk for me. My husband and I were very careful and I never did get pregnant again, but if I had I might have had to make a very sad choice…so my views on abortion like I said are not typical republican.
    I believe that if gays want to get married…then so be it. I understand those who are against it, but my opinion is It does not hurt me or affect me in any way…so why should I have the right to say that gays should not be allowed to be married, I may not agree with it, or understand it but it does not affect me, or my marriage.
    I read the comments on this blog, and I cannot believe that people are so willing to tear each other apart over different views, and this is where I have let my anger get the best of me at times, and commented and insulted…the blog host and some of his followers. I can live my life just fine as a Republican Christian, I may not like that the Blog host and some of his followers call all republicans evil, biggoted and racist, and say that we do not care about anyone, and their rights, and that we only care about those that are white and not gay…
    I may not understand that the blog host and some of his followers cannot speak with or continue relationships with those who voted Trump…although I do find it sad.
    I may be tired of the the blog host and some of his followers attacking republicans, and the awful things that they say about them.
    But, at the end of the day my political affiliation is my own personal choice, as is my lifestyle and my religion…I know that I am not the person the blog host and some of his followers are accusing me of being because I am a republican and I supported Trump.
    I know that there are the same accusations being made towards Hillary supporters….
    I am still friends with all of my friends that voted for Hillary and they are still my friend as well. None of us has thrown our friendship away because of a presidential election that we disagreed over, I cannot imagine cutting someone out of my life for their own personal choice and right to vote as they choose.
    It is funny because the fighting and name calling and accusations on this blog from the host and some of his followers is sad, as you read it you realize that no matter how mean or insulting you are to each other you have not changed each others minds and you never will.
    I believe that my political choices and religious choices are right…and I know that those that disagree with me believe the same about their political and religious choices.
    In my opinion though, none of us knows for certian that we are right or wrong or that the other side is right or wrong…we BELIEVE that we are right and others that do not agree with us are wrong, but that is just not how it works…because none of us has a crystal ball to show us the future and how things are going to turn out….
    My political stance, my presidental vote, and my religious beliefs could be totally wrong for all I know, I don’t believe that but it could be the case…what I do know is shoving you opinion and beliefs down someones throat and attacking them for believing differently than me is a waste of time, at the end of it all I will have accomplished nothing other than hurting someone, being hurt back, and STILL not having changed their minds or mine…
    I have yet to see any posts on this blog or from the blog host, that show fighting and name calling has made anything better, or that they have said oh yes you are right I am wrong…
    Stand up for what you believe in sure, but there is a respectful way of doing that….I won’t attack anyone who believes differently than me, I won’t accuse them of being so awful, and accuse them of such vile beliefs, and call them such horrible hurtful names, but I also won’t sit back and be judged, insulted or called horrible names for my choices and my beliefs, no one should.
    At the end of the day we do not know what is in a persons heart and soul, we can have an idea because of their actions and beliefs…but we don’t judging those that believe different than us is a dangerous ground. Assuming we know what is in Hillary’s or Trumps heart and soul is laughable, because none of us knows them personally and even at that we cannot see into their hearts and souls…all we know is what we are given by the media…and there is not one media source that is 100% without a sliver of a doubt truthful or reliable…the media gives us what they choose to give us, they cut clip and paste to make the person they are talking about to look better or worse. I hope and Pray that those that are so against Trump and his supporters are wrong, not so my choice can be right…
    But so that people will maybe stop hating and attacking those that have different opinions, and even those they love and care about.

    • I don’t really think your stance on abortion makes you an unusual republican. I think your belief is probably pretty similar to the average conservative. There are certainly situations where abortion is sadly necessary to save the life of the mother. If there are people who would let a mother die if ending her pregnancy was the only way to save her, I believe they are in the extreme minority. Like wise for children conceived via sexual assault. If a woman wants to carry that child to term I applaud her, but I would never force her to do it.

      Like your husband, I decided months before my children were born that if things went sideways at any point, I would make sure the doc knew my wife’s life was absolutely the priority. Thankfully I wasn’t ever forced to make that awful choice, and we have been blessed with two healthy girls. At the same time I believe using abortion merely as birth control after consensual sex is abhorrent. You want choice? You made it when you chose to hop into bed with your husband, boyfriend, random dude from Tinder, etc. We all know how babies are made.

      Despite how we are portrayed by people averse to any restrictions on abortion whatsoever, most people aren’t out to control women’s bodies, rather we believe that after a woman gets pregnant, it’s no longer just her body. Through her choice to have sex, she has created another life, independent of her own. It’s not the mothers body I care to regulate, but rather the body and life of the unborn child she carries that deserves our protection. Ending that life is an unacceptable way to respond to a pregnancy, even if you never wanted it. I believe that’s a pretty mainstream position.

      • I just want to pick up on your sentence, “We all know how babies are made.” I wish that were true. Not every student has access to comprehensive Sex Ed. Not every young person has parents who are willing to discuss it. Not all sexually active people have access to good medical care that would give them appropriate advice.

        This is another area where improvements would lower the rates of abortion.

        • While I’m all for sex Ed at the appropriate age, I’m willing to bet a fairly substantial amount of money that the number of people who get abortions because they didn’t realize sex causes pregnancy is pretty small.

          • It isn’t so much that they don’t know that sex causes pregnancy. It’s the stupid things that people think they know, like you can’t get pregnant the first time you have sex. You can’t get pregnant if the guy pulls out. You can’t get pregnant if you are menstruating. You can’t get pregnant if you do it standing up. For heaven’s sake, there was even that idiot who believes that pregnancy cannot occur from rape because a woman’s body has a way of shutting that down!

            • Patricia, thank you for pointing all these things out. I think you might have left one out, when the guy ejaculates outside the vagina. Those pesky swimmers have a mission to which they are devoted and girls, possibly even women, have indeed gotten pregnant even though ejaculation did not occur within the vagina. If it happens against the vestibule or the clitoris, it can get into the uterus.

              God designed our bodies so that when a happens, B follows. This is why we so desperately need common sense co-educational sex education in our schools starting around sixth grade.

              Goodness knows I went to college with young married couples who believed prayer was an effective means of birth control and at twenty-four I felt like a crone dispensing wisdom when I explained the facts of life to them.

  21. OMG, and I do not mean to curse,but your readers needed this one.I have never been so confused about the people of America. I completely agree with everything you said. In fact ,it made be feel better about my life perspective. I have always considered myself to be intolerant of intolerance.I feel that your points about discrimination and violence fit nicely into my credo. I believe that there is a place for conservatives ,just as long as they are also intolerant of intolerance. This would mean they would need to stop boxing Democrats into a group that uses “identity politics” to gain political advantage. That is a construct they made up to explain away our belief in a world that we can be different from each other and still work together as one.Of course we are a party that stands for civil rights for groups that are seen as minorities,but so should conservatives be .
    Why would we ever sit down and talk with a party that divides us ,rather than puts us together.This is the problem in today’s politics. They simply don’t see us as we actually are,and think that we are willing to accept a world view that is completely imaginary. Talk about scandals and crimes have become normal now,when most of it is untrue.If we are to accept that Trump is spotless,then the least he can do is stop lying about Hillary Clinton.It becomes a war.This is not going to heal a 60+ million group of angry voters that feel like the electoral college failed them.Republicans had better stop fighting with us ,and start hearing what we’ve been warning them about.The rich are getting richer,while the poor are getting poorer ,and we need a way to flip this scenario ,or there could be real internal fighting . It could get very violent ,and not just because they don’t like us, but because a man will take things from another by force to feed a starving family. It’s the story of the world ,and it’s time to pay attention to our problems-the real ones: inequality,the environmental changes, and racial tensions. Pretending that health care premiums were too high in a system that was trying to help everyone,is not a real problem. How do we get them to look up from their smart phones and see the troubles that really exist?

    • Thank you, John Kitchen.

      Yes, we all should be intolerant of intolerance. Yes, we should stop believing lies that conveniently excuse us from caring for each other and being involved in each other’s lives.

      I especially loved your last sentence.

  22. I am a white, British, left wing, evangelical, Liberal Democrat (both positionally and by party), Christian, with both Spina Bifida and Hydrocephalus, and I salute you John!

    • I gotta tell you Sean. You are in a lot better condition than any of these American conservative nutjobs. God bless you, have a great day, and drink a Guinness for me.

      • Trust me, Charles, you haven’t cornered the market on ‘nutjobs’ by a long shot! 😉 As to the beer, as a true Yorkshireman, I’ll lift a pint of Black Sheep Bitter to you! Have a happy, holy and restful weekend my friend!

  23. I appreciate the article, a lot. It very clearly articulates a thought I’ve been carrying around beautifully. Well done!

    That said…

    Who on earth thought it was a good idea to put a picture of a really ugly ethnic stereotype as a header? I get that some “rednecks” are racist assholes, but I’ve met racist assholes in big cities as well. And they don’t always look like “white trash.”

    I think the image really terribly undercuts the argument, which is a shame because it’s a fine article.

    (yes, scare quotes are set to maximum sarcasm)

    • Tom. You ever been to Tennessee? That photograph of John’s is worth a 1000 words of reality here in the Volunteer State. Equality in Tennessee is longing for winter so you can have iced water like the rich folks do.

    • Tom H. –I don’t like the Confederate flag in the photo, or the pseudo nazi uniform, and it looks like they are all shouting.

      Other than that, they look completely average/ normal to me.

      John P, being a graphic artist, knows how to get maximum commercial impact with his photo choices. [ I just wish he would change his line lengths for the comment section. a lot more people would respond. ]

  24. Dear John Pavlovitz Reader:

    After 25 years with no sex, responses to this post convince me that everyone on the planet knows more about this subject than I do.

    Plenty of people seem obsessed with other peoples’ genitalia … with what they do with it, with what they might do with it, with what they’ve thought about doing with it, with what they want to do with it, with what they wish they’d done with it, with what they wish they hadn’t done with it…

    What I want to know is, does anyone else find this obsession with other peoples’ genitalia even a teeny bit creepy? ;0

    • Dear gdd,

      I think most of us who read this blog agree that it is creepy. The only people who don’t find it creepy are those with the obsession.

      I’ve often mourned that we no longer seem to care about seemliness. For example, I never needed to know that you have been without sex for twenty-five years. It’s just not seemly for me to know that about you. It’s not seemly for me to know what sexual practices people engage in.

    • Mmmm … well, I write porn, so this doesn’t even begin to approach my ‘creepy’ index and I’m very happy about that. I can tell you in my career I have met a vast array of people from various walks of life who have had different views about sex and sexuality. If anything, the American tendency to be sexually repressive has created a twisted atmosphere of obsession and guilt over their obsessions.

      I have gotten tons of ‘feedback’ over the years. They unload all sorts of desires, guilts and experiences to me as if I was a psychologist, or something. There is this desire to tell strangers in an anonymous environment … and this is no different.

      The thing is I doubt any person here who is rabidly anti-homosexual would shout “HOMO!” at the top of their lungs, pointing out the ‘offenders’ if s/he witnessed them in public. They should examine why they don’t. Truly and seriously. Why aren’t you? If it is so important you bring it up here so vehemently ..

      As for me ~ I am using my real name and honest and open about who and what I am. Everyone who knows me for more than a few days know what I do ~ write erotica (porn). I gladly proclaim my support for LGBTQ among my fellow Republicans ~ you can bet that ‘sparks’ some discussions and I don’t care. It is worth the bruising.

      On the ‘plus’ side, I’ll still defend your right to be an ass. It is your right. I don’t have to agree with you to accept you have the right to your opinions too. I’m honest about that as well.

      “Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also a prison.” Henry David Thoreau
      “To the barricades!” {I read it somewhere}

      • Really? Porn? I am good friends with a couple of romance writers but I’ve never known anyone who admitted to writing porn. I’m impressed.

        No wonder you wonder where in the library they would place your books.

        What is the difference between the genres of romance and porn? Any ideas? Because I’ve read some romance that was very detailed. I had to raise my eyebrows. I absolutely had to raise my eyebrows.

        • I started writing porn. I slowly moved over to erotica. The difference … I could write three chapters without a single sex scene and my readers kept asking for more. Mostly I do romantic comedies with a twist these days, be it espionage, supernatural, or the like.

          Try out this:
          * the protagonist starts the story as a unrepentant serial womanizer which makes the last line all the more poignant. This is from the second to final chapter.
          * Hana is the protagonist’s fiancée.
          * Hercege/Hercegné are Hungarian for Prince and Princess. In the tale, the protagonist has been gifted with the empty title of “Magyarorszag es Erdely Hercege” {Prince of Hungary and Transylvania}.
          * Õnnela is Hana’s three year old daughter by a previous marriage.
          * Amazon ~ as in the protagonists works for a 3000 year old Secret Society of Amazons dating back to the Trojan Wars.

          “Hercege … you … you are horrible,” she growled around a feral smile. The lip-biting, tongue-sucking kiss was equally vicious, primal and leading Hana to the end of her tether. Not only was Hana’s sexual trust in me/us expanding, she was putting extra effort into her physical workout regime too. She might still have a ways to go to compete with an Amazon, but it was still going to be a great night.

          “Hercegné, I am nothing but a twisted shadow of masculine lust whose every contour is cast by your muliebrous glow,” I teased. Her eyes twinkled. Yes, definitely still going to be a great night.


          “Okay,” Hana yawned, “I give up. What does ‘muliebrous’ mean?” She’d been holding on to that for an hour and a half. It was five-thirty and I was dressing in my biking clothes before heading into work.

          “From the Latin ‘muliebri’ which means ‘womanly’,” I answered. Her sleepy eyes drank in both my response and my physique. I had discovered another thing Hana liked and that was to expand her academic/linguistic frontiers. She was enchanted with the idea that I liked to engage her mind along with her body – sparking on all cylinders.

          She’d crawled over to my side of the bed, her head resting on my pillow, soaking up my scent as she watched me. I knelt down, kissed her on her ear, cheek and finally the side of her lips. Hana was beat.

          “Have a good day and be careful,” she mumbled. Her eyes closed. Her chest rose with one last, waking breath before her sleep rhythms took her.

          “Ditto,” I whispered. I snuck into Õnnela’s room and planted a kiss on her head as well. The craziness of my life had a way of cascading over to the ones I loved. Loved? Oh boy …

          • That doesn’t read like porn to me.

            Are you familiar with the blog Smart BitchesTrashy Books? Occasionally they run a feature on men who write romance. Usually, though I believe the men disguise their names so they are not so overtly male and that way appeal more to their audience

      • Joe Catholic,
        The issues of morality and human sexual behavior is incredibility complex.
        While I understand the position outlined above – I question “Victorian” attitudes and conversely “hedonistic” attitudes as I can easily see them as the two extremes of human social conditions in a given time period.

        It seems to me – as human beings – we must continue to evolve and educate in a direction that emphasizes the physical, psychological and yes, spiritual responsibilities associated with human sexuality regardless of the reproduction or fulfillment of sexual gratification context.

        Now, this perspective is not meant to marginalize the church or to challenge conservative or progressive Christianity.

        Rather, and IMO, I think it’s irrational and ultimately destructive avoiding and examining the realities of human sexual expression, behavior and it’s consequences through the single lens of morality.

        FWIW – history clearly demonstrates – church prohibitions and conventional social mores, while influential – will never eradicate lust or sex and the forms of activity it can take.
        Perhaps we are better served by approaching this human activity differently which does not mean to suggest – acceptance or promotion.

      • Here is where we differ.

        I take into account the teaching of Christ in the Roman Empire in the 1st Century CE. The early church grew up in a heavily Greek-influenced Eastern portion of said Empire where it had to challenge powerful, established pagan religions.

        Now, I am trying to recall JESUS taking thirty seconds out of his short proselytizing career and saying “Homosexuality and premarital sex are wrong” to clarify the problem.

        Taking into account I believe ~
        1) Jesus Christ is the Son of God thus possessed a certain insight into the Message.
        2) The issues of homosexuality and premarital sex (aka virginity) have come up and been addressed by other Christian figures since Christ so,
        3) Christ would have been aware of the importance of such things …
        4) yet never addressed them along with a ton of other things which didn’t impact the Message as opposed to the few things he did address which do impact the Message.

        Now, look at the big enemy of homosexuality in the early Church – Paul. Paul grew up Jewish and the Jews were a competing culture with the larger Greek communities around them in the Roman East. Jews didn’t like homosexuality while the Greeks were conflicted about it ~ giving it a level of acceptance.

        Now also consider the Christian Church wasn’t an independent faith, but a branch of the Jewish faith (enjoying special Roman protections since the days of Augustus Caesar). This helps Paul and other Jewish proponents within the early Church press their doctrine and restrictions over that over other voices.

        Next, consider the winners and losers in the growth of the Christian faith. Consider the Gnostic gospels which the Church cast aside as it cleaned up its history.

        Now consider the ancient comedies, ribald tales and dramas the Church protected from the days of the Roman Empire until the Renaissance. How was the artwork of the Renaissance Popes, Cardinals, Archbishops and bishops ordered created and how that wasn’t pornography?

        It was and it wasn’t because you had to take into account the time period and “no”, this isn’t moral relativism. It is HISTORY and you are ignoring it.

        How about you read The Canterbury Tales? That is from the 14th century and has its ‘pornier’ portions. Please tell me how it could have been written without the general acceptance of the only religious body which mattered then ~ the Catholic Church?

        In fact, the original Protestant movement grew traction by accusing the Catholic Church of immorality while they were puritan (little ‘p’).

        The reality is the Catholic Church, like other religious institutions, has scrambled to be the ‘most’ moral authority in the past 400 years. It wasn’t always so and I don’t see why we should ignore the politics of the past which have led to current policy choices.

      • I see a difference between being an sexual exploiter and a Christian.

        I also see the difference between being a pornographer and a Catholic.

        I am not Catholic and have never claimed to be. I write stories which make people happy. Usually they contain joy and love – even marriage. I often espouse the values of fidelity, loyalty, courage and honesty as well.

        I write stories about people who have lives and a portion of their lives may have sex and I try to put that sex in a realistic context.

        As an example – current story – no lie – the protagonist is talking with a nun who (as part of a Papal team) has joined a multi-national anti-terrorism task force. Why? The Holy See, among its other great works, has the oldest and one of the most effective intelligence agencies in the Known World. Check it out if you don’t believe me.

        Now, the nun WILL NOT have sex with the protagonist ~ because she is a nun. Not only do I personal have respect for the Catholic Church, a critical theme in the story is oaths and the power they have.

        So, why the nun? In the midst of this porn story is a man struggling with not only faith, but his Catholic upbringing. He is dealing with supernatural forces, pagan deities and ghosts come to life yet none of that invalidates the existence of God in anyone’s eyes. Even the pagan deities acknowledge a singular, vastly greater power.

        So someone skilled in the Catholic faith has shown up to guide him. And it is still a porn story because sometimes people screw up, need to be told they’ve screwed up and shown the way out.

        • I really wanna read that novel. For the record, there are nuns in the Episcopal and Presbyterian churches. It would be nice if authors explored nuns in other denominations.

  25. After reading all these replies from the troll(s) I am convinced that if John P. were to write an essay about cute kittens and puppies they would find a way to bring the topic around to abortion, chopped up babies, gays, religion and find ways to quote the bible affirming their beliefs. They are so predictable, it’s almost laughable.

    • Sadly, lolalola, I am forced to agree with you. Once I realize someone is a troll, I just won’t read what they post any longer. Life is too short for spew.

    • Lolaola
      I am convinced of the same thing. This discussion in particular seems to gone off into the weeds. I actually got confused somewhere and went back to read the post. How did we get to a discussion of the Catholics and the Christians? Is this just a bait and switch by the Catholic so real discussion cannot happen.
      I think Jesus hung out with sinners. Weren’t the UNcompromised religious the ones who crucified him?
      I agree that everyone should be welcome at the table. However, part of being at the table should, in my opinion, be a willingness to listen and grow.

    • Lolaola
      I am convinced of the same thing. This discussion in particular seems to gone off into the weeds. I actually got confused somewhere and went back to read the post. How did we get to a discussion of the Catholics and the Christians? Is this just a bait and switch by the Catholic so real discussion cannot happen.
      I think Jesus hung out with sinners. Weren’t the UNcompromised religious the ones who crucified him?
      I agree that everyone should be welcome at the table. However, part of being at the table should, in my opinion, be a willingness to listen and grow.

  26. @John P.

    Good post. Maybe a bit more polite re: the tee bags and bigots than I am, but on point nonetheless.

    I alluded to this same sentiment in a post the other day. The right loves nothing better than to make sophomoric attempts to throw our own principles in our faces. As I wrote the other day, my favorite is, “You guys are supposed to be so tolerant!” No, we’re not. We have little or no tolerance for bigots, racists, homophobes or front-pew sitting, self-righteous “christians” trying to impose their mean-spirited theocracy on the rest of us. We have no common ground with folks who mean others harm.

    You’re point about “diversity”, John, appropriately echoes this sentiment. We’re not the least bit interested in making sure that bad people are “adequately represented” at the table. You think gay men and women are an abomination? Get the hell out. You’re not welcome. You think the suffering of transgender men and women isn’t a problem and, if it is, it’s their own fault? Don’t let the door hit you on the butt on your way out. You voted for Trump because you’re angry about all this “political correctness” that makes you uncomfortable about using the “n” word in public? Stay the hell home.

    So, no…we’re not interested in any kind of diversity that seeks to include haters and people who want to harm.

    Folks, a couple of nights ago, the GOP Senate voted to take health care insurance away from millions of Americans that have it now. Conservative estimates are that 30K Americans will die each year as a direct result of having their insurance taken away. The trolls here and elsewhere voted for just this to happen. None of them are “pro-life”. Rather, they are pro “live your life as I see fit or be thrown in jail”. They have little interest in life. They have lots of interest in retaining their power to make others suffer.

    So…quit feeding the trolls. Take the same time you’d use to trade barbs with the bigots here and call your Senator .

    • Thanks, Rick

      Trolls will turn purple with rage before I engage with them. When my children had tantrums I simply walked away and let them finish until they realized it wasn’t going to work. Same with trolls. They don’t impress me, they don’t get a rise out of me, I just simply don’t take their bait and walk away. I encourage all of the supporters of John P. to do the same.

  27. James Dosher, we ran out of “reply” space yet again.

    JANUARY 13, 2017 AT 9:26 PM
    >Yep. I hadn’t considered feminine hygiene products.In modern parlance, it is how a woman knows her boyfriend loves her ~ he’ll go to the store to get her such things, risking the ‘exposure’ doing so out of love. Some guys still get freaked out by it all.I’ve been disabled since 2006 – bipolar. Yes, I’m a nut.Anonymous dropped a ‘turd’ … I’m sure you will deal with it. Still …I would point out in general that having pets can often be the difference between keeping it together and losing it. Pets are like little children who never grow up and never leave home.Also, you can buy plenty of used paperback books for less than $1 at used book stores plus most public library systems have sales once a year to sell of old stock for pennies on the dollar. Missing a dinner a week can net you a ‘ton of books’. Been there, done that, have the walls full of bookshelves to prove it … you chuckle-head.<

    Alas, the funds don't extend that far. I am a complete dolt when it comes to finances so a long time ago, I voluntarily gave control of my Social Secruity into the keeping of a Representative Payee and it is one of the most liberating decisions of my life. They make sure all my rent, bills, registration on the twenty-one year old car mom gave me, all of that is kept paid.

    Yes, a car is a luxury, but my rep payee did the math for me comparing the cost of the car versus using the special handicapped bus that would pick me up and take me places. The cost of gas, especially now that the prices dropped, insurance, registration is about one-half of the cost of the handicapped bus to get to my various medical appointments, etc. They showed me the figures but numbers scramble in my brain, a form of dyslexia, I am certain.

    Besides, I barely have room for the books I acquired when I was well-off. I have added very few since I became disabled, very careful purchases, saved up for. LOL you shoud see my gigantic book wishlist on Amazon. I use it as a To Be Read List, to keep track of what I want to be sure and read One of These Fine Days.

  28. Joe Catholic, by turns your opinions are insulting, disingenuous and most likely hypocritical. To say you support any religion, and for that matter, anyone, who supports a religion saying that ONLY those who adhere to it can be saved, that made slaves of the local populations, as Father Serra did, in fact, in California during the mid 1700’s at the missions he founded, then goes on into having it’s most sacred office, the priesthood, become infected with child molesters and their supervisiors simply transfer them over and over again, foisting them on an unsuspecting public in another city, demonstrates to me the Catholic Church refuses to care about anyone except itself. Whatever The Church has suffered as a result appears to be well-deserved and it’s own fault for it’s sophistry.

    This attitude is no different than Trump’s. He doesn’t care about anyone else, either. Surprising that they’re both much the same as the other. This is further proof to me that my choice of becoming Wiccan was correct. Churches only care about their own identity, not the identities of their members. To ask for diversity on the one hand then close it off with the other for whatever reason is expedient at the time shows that conventional wisdom, so-called, can never be trusted.

    I don’t need anyone’s prayers, either. Nor their forgiveness. Instead, you need to look into your own minds and ask The Holy Trinity to forgive you for being in any church that teaches hatred or hypocrisy to you, simply because you’re a part OF that church.

    Blessed be

  29. I find John Pavlovitz to be a breath of fresh air.
    Two Articles on the kind and caring catholic church.

    You can google many more stories just like these. I also have first hand knowledge of the despicable pedophile coverup by their good ol boy network. I don’t dislike catholics, just not a fan of their vatican/church leadership.

  30. Here’s a word about the foolery of Homosexuality and Lesbianism:

    When a woman sleeps with another woman, what is amazing is that the woman that is playing the “girl”, wants a penis, and the woman that plays the “man”, wishes she had a penis.

    The “girlie” female allows her lesbian laover to get fake penises in the form of dildos and sex machines which have a fake rubber penis on the end. My question is if homosexuality isn’t a mental problem, why does the recieving female wants a fake PENIS and not a real one?

    Why does she allow another woman to wear a “strap-on” fake penis, and then allows that other female to immitate a man in penentrating her? It proves my point: women that are lesbians, are confused and misguided! They want a penis for sexual pleasure…..but because they are NOT well, they prefer another woman to attempt to play the impossible role of a man. Yet, you guys say that is “normal” and “natural”.

    • Wayne, you have not realised that sexual attraction is not about the individual body parts, but about the person. You also don’t grasp that not all people make love in the same way. Our bodies are not uniform. Some people are sensitive in places that other people are not sensitive. What works for person A doesn’t work at all for person B.

      As an obvious expert on “lesbian sex” (perhaps garnered from lesbian porn for men?) surely you must know that there are many lesbians who refuse any form of penetration. Happily, for women, sexual satisfaction is easily achieved without penetration.

    • Wayne you have mentioned children. Some children actually grow up with minds of their own. I will include yours when praying for unconditional love from all parents. Let us hope you do not fill their minds with your obsession of other people’s private moments.

      • Every child deserves to be loved, cared for, and nurtured by the MAN and WOMAN God used to create them! Stop trying to normalize homosexuality as a legitimate lifestyle. Two men or women cannot make a child.

        • If this were truly believed, we would stop sending parents off to war. We would confirm paternity by any and all means at birth and make sure that men stay present in their children’s lives. We would provide appropriate health care and mental health care so that parents need not die of treatable diseases. We would provide a living wage so that despairing parents don’t kill themselves.

          Also nobody is trying to legitimize homosexuality as a lifestyle because it is NOT a lifestyle, it is an orientation. A lifestyle is where you live, what concerts you go to, if you volunteer, if you have a parakeet. And if it were a lifestyle, which it isn’t, there is no one monolithic, homogeneous lifestyle that all gays follow. The notion is ridiculous beyond belief.

        • I absolutely agree with you 100% that every child should be, loved, cherished, and nurtured.

          But parents die, men walk away from their children, women walk away from their children. Parent use their children as torpedoes against each other when relationships go bad.

          Children are abused, left alone, molested, etc. In a perfect world children would not feel pain or suffer from illness.

          We can wish things were different. We can pray things were different.

          I cannot change your feeling about homosexuality nor do I try. And you cannot order me not to think that we can no more change a homosexual into a heterosexual than we can change a heterosexual into a homosexual.

          • Here is a saying I was raised with ~ “Girls and boys make babies. Men and women raise them.” The implication is it is the ‘adult mindset’, not the biology, which leads infants from childhood and through their teenage years.

            News Flash: Heterosexual couples can raise children who are homosexual. Homosexual couples can raise children who are heterosexual. In fact, they are most likely to as heterosexuality is the majority outcome for gender-preference.

            If you bothered to do your research you would realize this is true – gay couples, or single gay parents, most often raise heterosexual children. F-A-C-T.

            Since you will bring this up, the studies involved:
            ~ homosexual couples who have adopted.
            ~ lesbian couples who engaged in artificial insemination.
            ~ single parents who attempted a heterosexual lifestyle, had a child then openly accepted their homosexuality.
            ~ homosexual adults left with infant relatives to raise.

            People regularly don’t raise a stink when a single parent carries on after the other dies, or even if an aunt, uncle, grandmother, or grandfather has to take up the duty of child-rearing … but if it is two women, or two men … and now you have a problem?

            Now, what happens if a child’s parents die and the are sent to their only living relative ~ a lesbian aunt, or gay uncle? What do you suggest the State do? Deny hundreds of years of legal precedence because of your hysteria? Oh boy! All sorts of laws would proceed to do a legal ‘River Dance’ on your forehead if you tried, that’s for sure. Why? We trust family.

            • Well said James!

              A further thought is in relation to the continual yammering on here and elsewhere about there having to be a mother and father so that children receive the influence of both genders.

              When a gay couple raises a child, they do not do so in isolation. They have family members, friends, coworkers, church members or community group members, teachers, doctors, nurses, counsellors, and other kids’ parents who will have contact and influence with the children. Those people will represent all genders, not just the gender of the couple. The child will not want for role models.

              • Ms. Brush ~

                GAK!! Homosexuals have extended families?!?!?! And here some folks thought they sprang forth from the ground like the bitter fruits of Dragon’s Teeth. 😉

                Next thing ya know, you are going to try to tell us that just because they look like us, talk like us and often worship like us .. they are just like us? Poppy-cock and balderdash!

                For all I know you are one of those libertines who thinks the Earth is round and we orbit the Sun. Tsk … tsk.

                I have no more time to waste with you. I’m off to find more of those T-Rexs and Velociraptors drowned in Noah’s flood. I have found highly inconclusive proof they invoked the All-Powerful World Turtle in an attempt to save themselves. Fools! Didn’t they know sea turtles, even divine ones, spend most of their time under water and couldn’t hear their prayers? Cretins, I tell you – cretins.

  31. Patricia, you gays have been taught to respond in a certain manner so as to attempt to normalize homosexuality. Guess what? It isn’t working! Homosexuality is absolutely horrible!

    • Are you speaking from personal experience? A lot of people are homosexual and have wonderful, fulfilled, loving, creative and spiritual lives.

      P.S. Nobody has to normalize homosexuality. It is normal. It is found throughout nature and throughout all human cultures throughout all eras. It gives a survival advantage. You just don’t like it because it gives you the wiggins. You can be a better person. If you don’t think men should sleep with men, don’t sleep with men and go on with your life. The fact the men sleep with men has nothing to do with you and does not affect your life in any way.

    • I pray some day Wayne you will hear yourself before it’s too late. Currently you’re deaf with hatred and judgment. “You gays” and “Homo”. He is listening and you’re not. What happened to that softened heart He gave you? Speak your piece and it go. Or pray for those you believe are wrong or lost. Give Him something worthy of hearing from you. Step away from fear. I have pity for you in your current state.

      • When you come out of hiding “Anonymous”, and start being a man or a woman, then come and talk. I don’t make it a point to dialog with the cowardly.

    • I have met many gay people who are decent people. I see them for who they are, which is normal everyday people leading productive lives. I don’t see depravity in anyone I know. I am glad of that. Because I think most people are trying to do the right thing in this life. I know there is evil in the world but most people are doing their best. We have to recognize that.

      Wayne, I see you as a bully on this thread. I don’t see Jesus in your message at all. All I see is a hardened dogmatic man who is prejudiced against a group of people he refuses to treat as equal human beings. Where is your dignity Wayne?

        • I am talking about living breathing human beings what are you talking about? Is that some sort of course you took?! Please explain, because I don’t understand. If you don’t know any gay people you cannot speak about their lives. I told you about the gay people I know. Why don’t you spend some time with gay people and stop making uninformed statements .

          • Wayne, I am sincere about this. You make comments on a blog all huffing and puffing about gays but you admit your don’t associate with gay people. How then can you say anything about them? It really looks bad on you

            • Wayne, Sunny makes an excellent point. If you avoid gay christians and married gays who are living respectable lives in your community and workplace, you have no place to judge or say anything about them.

              • Kathy, read my remarks to Sunny, because the both of you are lacking in reading and comprehension skills……not to mention, you both make false statements that hasn’t even been addressed. You’re speaking more gay 101 rhetoric!

            • Sunny, it looks bad on you because lying on someone is very bad. Where on this blog have I said that I “don’t know or hang out with any gay people?”

              I don’t have to “hangout with gay people” to know and care for them. I am very much concerned with the souls and spiritual health of gays as they are being deceived by the Devil. That’s what true love does: it “speaks the truth in love” to those that are decieved. In the meantime, pay attention to what others write, and that way you won’t make false statements!

              • I think the phrase ” they are being deceived by the Devil.” is the best phrase for you, to use, to deceive yourself. Because, as long as you see the devil in the way you shut the door to Jesus. Therefore the only true deception is denying the work of Christ.

    • I’m not sure you know what “rhetoric” means. Brigham Young University describes it this way: “Rhetoric is the study of effective speaking and writing. And the art of persuasion. And many other things. ” calls it “the undue use of exaggeration or display; bombast”. Merriam-Webster defines it as “the art of speaking or writing effectively”.

      Depending upon which definition you are using, I am either very flattered or somewhat amused that you cannot recognise the truth when it is placed before you.

      I noticed that much of your commentary has been gathered from debunked sources, disgraced scientists and doctors, and “pastors” looking to make a quick buck by scaring people with a false interpretation of scripture. Again I say, you can do better. Examine current research. Read the Bible in the original languages. Search your heart for why you feel the need to be so hateful towards people who have absolutely nothing to do with your life. Get out into the world and volunteer. It cannot make you happy stewing in all that rage.

      • Patricia, God doesn’t want you to be a Lesbian! No matter how much epty chatter or nonsensical rhetoric you choose to spew, it will never change the truth! God has personally promised to judge all unrepentant homosexuals as it is a shameful abomination to Him as indicated very clearly by the Scripture. Amazingly, gays have been falsely taught how to respond to those that point out the fallacy in their thinking. Things such as the following: “you’re not interpreting that correctly”, “what you’ve said have been debunked”, “not all gays have anal sex (yet, the same gays that are not having sex, have the highest rate of STD’S of any people!), “that is just a theory”, “two men can raise children just as well as the Mother and Father that gave birth to them”, “there are millions of species that re homosexual in the animal world” (which is the dumbest stuff I’ve heard yet given that God didn’t intend for us to learn about human sexuality from animals that roam the earth. This is quite dumb!)

        I could go on with the Crap, but all of it is nonsensical. If you were created a female, and based on your name, I suspect that you are indeed a female, then you are not suppose to be romantically or sexually involved with another female. That is quite nasty and unfounded!

        • You say that I have been taught to respond in a certain way. In fact, I own a functioning brain and am well capable of doing the research for myself and reaching my own conclusions. The fact that what I learned jibes with the thoughts of others does not infer an evil cabal.

          I find it interesting that you have heard the truth and completely reject it as “dumb”. You find absolutely ludicrous ideas that are not at all based in science to be self evident. You do not expose yourself as a great thinker, but instead as someone who is more interested in maintaining prejudice than in gaining knowledge.

          Thank you for calling me nasty. I appreciate the compliment. Although, I would hazard a guess that you don’t know that women have reclaimed the word “nasty” as a badge of honour.

          • Patricia, you remind me of Elizabeth Warren. I don’t think you’re a great thinker, in fact, I think you’re blind by your love for your sin and perversion that you simply refer to gay 101 talking points.

            Science disproves homosexuality in a myriad of ways. You were designed by our all-wise Creator (I bet you even doubt that) to connect with a man, and to enjoy sexual intimacy with him, and not another woman, which is quite nasty!

            Biologically, you were given all the female sexual and reproductive body parts….that corresponds and compliments the body parts of a male. So science is on the side of Heterosexuality, not homosexuality. It’s called human anatomy 101!

            • Wayne … I have ABSOLUTE FAITH in an all-knowing, all-powerful One-True-God. I believe he makes people different for reasons he does not explain to me – or you. God has created some people to be homosexual for HIS reasons.

              You – Wayne – chose to DEFY God’s will toward his Creations. You ASSUME a choice on their part where there is none. You choose to HATE some of his creations – your choice, not theirs.

              You – Wayne – defy God’s plan for people to find love, compassion and understand BEYOND mere biological constraints … because were are more than flesh and blood … we are more than animals … we, Humanity, have been given SOULS.

              We transcend the Flesh, Wayne … and yet somehow you refuse to acknowledge this … very, very sad.

              • James, like most gays, you’re seriously delusional! Let’s see what God’s Word says to your gay talking points:

                Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,  nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9-10)

                Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,  who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
                 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.  Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
                And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting. (Romans 1:24-28)

                knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,  for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust. (1 Tim. 1:9-11)

                As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)

                These are a few examples of God’s Word concerning the abomination of homosexuality. Try as you might, there’s simply no wiggle room for you. Unless homosexuals repent, they will face eternal judgment someday. I SINCERELY hope that you and others repent and stop making excuses for your sin!

                • Wayne, there is plenty of room because Jesus gives us grace. This rant of yours is a hodge podge of scripture tied together that I am sure means something to you but does not resonate with me in the way you intended.

                  I work in a corporation that employs hundreds of gay people who have families and children. They are respectable beloved people in our workplace. The world you picture in the scripture verses you recited is not the way they live. We are talking about hundreds of families with homes and children and pets and extended family. I do not believe it is God’s intention to tear apart and destroy all these lives which are knitted together in our communities. In fact they are part of the back bone of our communities. They contribute and give and serve. We can’t just pull all that apart. We have to re-think how God is working to redeem LGBT people with a more realistic view.

                • Wayne, my name is Susan; that should not matter. But now you have a gender to bully as well.

                  Please recite to me Christ’s words on this matter of homosexuality… Red letter. There are none. “Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.” … At the end of Matthew 19:12.

                  Why not let Christ our King do the judging? and you turn your heart to loving as He so instructed. Your fear has turn your heart to self-righteous stone. He knows my being. I am not here to justify my gay existence to you or anyone else. I don’t need your approval to take a breath… I was born a sinner, all of me… gay, and often self-reliant, self-seeking, resistant, distracted. But I was saved by Grace; His blood. Given a renewed heart to love God, love others, receive others, to have compassion. But I am still tethered to this earth, and still gay. I allow you to work out your flesh with Him. Should you not allow others to do the same without hatred, shaming, judgment and condemnation? Let Him do his work, whatever that might be and you do yours. Each will kneel before Him to be judged by our actions, words, and heart. I, nor any other person, need stand in judgment before you now. And that’s what you’re attempting, to play God rather than emmulate Christ.

                • Wayne, I’m not gay. I’m not bi-sexual, or even bi-curious. I had the opportunity and learned I am definitely a confident heterosexual male.

                  The difference is I have faced ‘temptation’ and known it for what it is ~ false, as in there is no making a man ‘turn gay’. Either you are, or you are not. It isn’t a choice.

                  My daughter is bi-sexual at 15. My son, given the same parenting, is hetero at 13. The only ‘direction’ I have ever given them is I would love them no matter what. I also gave them the statistics – most people are heterosexual, which makes sense if the species is to survive.

                  It also means, if you are hetero and a homosexual person ‘hits’ on you, don’t be offended. The vast majority of the people around them are not like them so it is a bit more ‘hit and miss’.

                  Instead, realize they found something fascinating about you, be flattered, politely tell them you aren’t interested and you aren’t offended.

                  Most homosexuals understand the incredible numbers game they are up against. Unlike us heteros, the majority of people they find attractive won’t be interested in them – being straight after all. It is a fact of reality they deal with on a daily basis.

                  Can you recall how hard it is for you, a male, to ask a woman out? Can you imagine the extra amount of courage a homosexual has to muster as they are dealing with both the emotional vortex you confront plus the added complication of a possible homosexual backlash ~ as witnessed here?

                  Bottom line: sexuality doesn’t bother me. It is up to the individual, only to be constrained by the laws of consent, whatever partnerships you join into and your relationship with the Divine.

                  To clarify, I am a Christian. The Message of My Lord Jesus Christ is for me … and over two billion others. Jesus of Nazareth died to save ME. On the cross, looking through 2000 years of time, he told me, James Dosher, “you are worthy of salvation.” I didn’t have to be a Virtuous Man. I didn’t have to be Perfect Man. No; what I had to do was TRY. Try and never stop trying. When I failed, I would be forgiven as long as I got back up and kept TRYING.

                  Pick yourself up, learn from your mistakes and keep trying … it is a very simple part of HIS Message, Wayne. One day I will fall down … and he will pick me up and tell me I’ve done enough and I can go home. One day. Until them, as much as anyone else, I have to keep trying to be the best human being I can be.

                  I also chose to believe God saves others by other means because he is a Just and Caring God. There are far too many examples of why I believe this, but here is one:

                  There was a suicide attack in Tunisia. A dozen dead and a hundred wounded. The First Responders were on the scene. That was when the second jihadist with a suicide vest made his run toward the crowd.

                  An old man in his seventies saw him. He was a poor street-cobbler. No one else noticed the attacker approaching so he rushed up and tackled the guy. They wrestled until the suicide bomber realized other were noticing the commotion and decided to detonate his vest.

                  Instead of killing perhaps a hundred, he killed two: himself and the old cobbler.

                  Now, that old cobbler was undoubtedly a Muslim and with reservation I believe his is in Heaven now. He did precisely what Christ would expect of any of us – to sacrifice our own lives to save others.

                  When he grappled with the jihadist, he had to know he would die. Even if the police noticed them both and started shooting, the suicide bomber would detonate his vest.

                  The people in the crowd helping the survivors of the first attack? Perhaps a few people he knew casually but not his family. Yet, had he hesitated, the moment would have passed as would the attacker. Many more would have died.

                  In that moment he loved the lives of others more than he loved own life. Love conquered hate in that instant.

                  And all I could imagine when I read about that was Jesus reaching down to that old man and saying “let me help you up. It is time for you to come home.”

                  • Thank you James. You made me recall my husband recoiling at the thought of meeting someone homosexual. I asked him what his discomfort was and he replied that he was terrified that he would “hit on”. I said, “Welcome to my everyday life.” It was a teaching moment both for him and for me. I didn’t realize that he didn’t see what was happening to all the women around him, and he had his eyes opened. I taught him how to kindly turn down an advance.

                    Now when I see the words “Homophobia isn’t a fear of the gays. It’s a fear that another man will treat you the same way that you treat women” I see them as overstated, but they have the ring of truth to me.

                    • The first gay man to hit on me … I was rather handsome when I was younger 😉 … he was a good friend and I had been clueless … the fear in his eyes when I realized what he was stammering about. I never want to see that fear in another person’s eyes. Not just of rejection, but of the end of a friendship and the collapse of our social circle because of the passion he felt for me. No one should have to go through that.

                      I ended up as Best Man … at his wedding … to the guy he married … because I was good friends with him as well. That first guy remains terribly flirty (in general) to this day. Sometime I think his husband is going to reach across the sofa and strangle him.

                • I see part of the problem. You are using a very bad translation of the Bible. The original language texts of the Bible do not include the word “homosexual” or describe the concept of homosexuality. Translators are known to translate words with multiple meanings or with undefined meanings in a way that makes sense to them and their world view. They will do this feeling they are doing their best, or they will do it deliberately to support their prejudices. It is telling that the word “homosexual” did not appear in a Bible until 1946. This is why it is so important to go back to the original language texts to find the writer’s meaning.

                  • Patricia, more gay revisionist nonsense! I’ve studied GREEK in Seminary. The word “arsenokoitai” means “Men who have Sex with Men”.

                    The GREEK word, “malakoi” means “effeminate”, and had a few word pictures such as:

                    1. A young male who was the passive partner in pederasty (Older Men having sex with Younger Men)

                    2. Any man (young or old) who assumes the passive / receiving role during sex.

                    There is no wiggle room! Keep trying, but you will fail!

                    • Arsenokoitai does not have an agreed upon meaning. It is a word that isn’t found in many manuscripts. And since it is found in lists, there is no context that might inform the meaning. Further, if Paul had wanted to say “men who have sex with men” there were perfectly good words available in Greek that would have said exactly that. This word means something else.

                      As for malakoi, I agree that it means effeminate, but we have to check the cultural context. In that time period, a man was considered effeminate if he did not want to spend all his time with the other men and instead spend time with his wife. A man who didn’t enjoy fighting and instead preferred studying was considered effeminate. By your own admission, you went to seminary which would make you, according to the context, effeminate.

                      What often happens is that when something is felt to be known, even if it isn’t true, the teaching and the illustration accompanying that teaching can tend to bolster the lie. The church has rallied its troops for decades on the supposed sin and perversion of gay folk. Of course they are going to teach to that. It doesn’t make it true.

                    • Wayne, Arsenokoitai doesn’t mean homosexuality because the compound word is describing males while homosexuality is speaking about male and females. Furthermore, it is false to think compound words directly mean the sum of their parts when we don’t know what the compound word meant (Paul might have be referring to something only the audience he wrote to understood) There are many possibilities but none of them picture a same sex marriage. A loving gay partnership exemplifies faithfulness and devotion.

                      “The main point is that the etymology of a word is not a statement about its meaning but about its history. It is quite wrong to suppose that the etymology of a word is necessarily a guide either to its ‘proper’ meaning in a later period or to its actual meaning in that period.”

                      Therefore Wayne your teachers simply draw their own conclusions based on what they want to prove and teach about gays.

                  • Joe, you have repeated the error of so many before you in not paying attention to context. The verses you quote from Romans start with the words “For this reason”. For what reason? We have to read what goes before. If we do, we learn that people who should have known better have gone back to worshipping idols. That worship was often performed through sexual acts. It is the worship of idols that is the issue.

                    As for the passage from Corinthians, there is no Greek word in that letter than can legitimately be translated as homosexual. You have got a bad translation on your hands. The word has been inserted by people wanting to confirm their own bias. It does not come from God.

            • Dearest Wayne, my how you do like to compliment me. Elizabeth Warren is held in very high regard. I appreciate being placed in her company. Although, you will note that I never said I was a great thinker, just that I have a functioning brain.

              Although, you are a little confusing when you say I am blind by my love of my sin and perversion. The sin of being a church administrator? The perversion of being a church musician? The sin of being trained in pastoral care? The perversion of facilitating a prayer group? Maybe it’s the sin of loving my children and my dog? It certainly cannot have anything to do with my sex life, because I don’t have one. Maybe it’s the sin of being a thinking female.

              • Thank you Patricia for your service. For your Christ-likeness and compassion. You have shown much restraint in the face of this persecution; it can only be the Spirit within. God bless.

              • Patricia, my comments are written to address the issue of Lesbianism in general, since we’re speaking of homosexuality. If YOU are not gay, then it clearly doesn’t apply to YOU.

                • Your commentary then is formed from inaccurate information. Homosexuality is not an action that is sinful. It is a state of being that exists without action, like handedness. I have a friend whose right hand didn’t form, but even though she does not have a right hand, she is right-handed. She will never make an action, sinful or otherwise, with a right hand, but her brain is still wired for right-handedness.

                  It is the same way with homosexuality. It is the way that the brain is wired from birth. It requires no sexual activity for a person to know that they are gay.

                  If you insist that homosexuality itself, exclusive of action, is sin and perversion, you are saying that the person is sin and perversion. If Saint Peter was gay, you would name him sin and perversion. If you are instead saying that it is homosexual actions that are sin and perversion, I would agree only in the case where the action was violent, abusive, not consensual, involved someone underage, or depended upon a power imbalance. We would similarly agree if these actions were taken by straight people. If you are condemning gay people for actions that straight people engage in without being deemed sinful, then I heartily disagree.

                  • Anonymous you said, ” If you are condemning gay people for actions that straight people engage in without being deemed sinful, then I heartily disagree.”

                    Well said.

                    Faithful loving relationships and families is what honors God and is what strengthens our communities.

                    LGBT people belong as part of the diversity of humanity.????