Dear Offended Christian, From a Very Tired Christian

Tired2

Dear Offended Christian,

I’m terribly sorry that your feelings are hurt again. I feel badly about that. None of us likes to be criticized, so I totally get it.

I know I’ve said some pretty hard words to you recently, and maybe I’ve been somewhat less than “cheery” in my delivery, but that happens when you’re tired.

And I am really tired:

I’m tired of hearing you telling gay people that they can’t simultaneously be both gay and Christian. 

I’m tired of having to explain what “Transgender” means to adult Christian people, who I’m quite sure have Internet access and should know better by now that it isn’t “a guy in a dress”.

I’m tired of arrogant pulpit bullies who believe they’re entitled to tell people where they can pee and who they can marry and whether they really love Jesus or not.

I’m tired of you regularly dispensing damnation on the queer community, and then offering empty “thoughts and prayers” in the face of tragedy before resuming your normal schedule. 

I’m tired of you being more outraged by red coffee cups and department store restrooms than by poverty and racism and gun violence and our crumbling school system.

I’m tired of gay people being accused of the kind of predatory behavior that straight men have been exhibiting, since the man cave was—an actual cave. 

I’m tired of reminding you that the number of times Jesus spoke about gender identity and sexual orientation in the Gospels—is zero.

I’m tired of having to explain to people that although I am a Christian, that I’m not that type of Christian; the kind that is generous with damnation and stingy with Grace.

I’m tired of LGBTQ teens cutting their forearms and jumping off buildings because they’re told by their church friends that God hates them, because their Christian parents told them, because their Christian pastors told them.

I’m tired of followers of Jesus who don’t seem interested in cracking open a book to see what we’ve learned about the brain and the body in 2,000 years, or to realize that gender identity and sexual orientation don’t equal the word “homosexuality” in the Bible.

I’m tired of all the time I have to spend undoing the damage the Church has done to queer kids and their families.

I’m tired of religious folk who seem to want small government everywhere except the bedroom and bathroom.

I’m tired of Scientific ignorance being treated as if it’s a Christian virtue.

I’m tired of hearing professed Christians preach verbatim the gospel of Fox News.

I’m tired of high-profile pastors blaming gay people for 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina and ISIS and child obesity.

I’m tired of waiting for you to show up in this world and actually show the freakin’ love of Jesus to people the way he did and told you to, without excuses or caveats or theological tap dancing to avoid it.

I’m tired of this wasteful, fruitless, mean-spirited, unprovoked, unbiblical attack on the LGBTQ community, that is squandering so much time and life and beauty in the name of a God who is supposedly Love.

I’m tired of so many people believing that “Christian” and “bigot” are synonymous—and not disagreeing with them.

I’m tired of a Church which seems to be so ambivalent toward the teachings and example of Jesus.

I’m tired of a Christianity that is making me more and more embarrassed to be associated with it.

So I get that your feelings are hurt. I understand that you’re offended, and that’s not my intention. 

But listen, if you’re going to tell a group of people that they’re going to Hell simply for existing, and you’re going to continually target those people through the Church and the Law and your social media accounts, don’t get angry with me when I tell you you’re being hateful and judgmental and ignorant.

It could be worse.

At least I’m not damning you for all eternity.

Sincerely,

A Very Tired Christian

 

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1,435 thoughts on “Dear Offended Christian, From a Very Tired Christian

  1. “I’m tired of this wasteful, fruitless, mean-spirited, unprovoked, unbiblical attack on the LGBTQ community, that is squandering so much time and life and beauty in the name of a God who is supposedly Love.”

    Amen and Amen.

    • Honestly this article seems to show how bigoted he is about christians who don’t agree with his stance. Where is his love of them?? Troubling to me

        • I believe Karen just proved John’s point. (me, me, me, me, MEEEEE!!) Wow, that didn’t take long. Karen, read this piece again, s-l-o-w-l-y this time.

          • Kay… it would be good for John P to build up the brethren, with God’s Word, rather than write his too- long ‘revenge’ posts. [All he does is complain about other people. ]
            John… let’s talk about Jesus. That’s the ONLY effective way to make desired changes. (but probably not a recipe for a ‘popular’ blog like yours).

                  • As a transgender woman, I have to say I was HONORED to have John Pavlovitz speak at our church. He is a breath of fresh air.
                    Karen…I had a very spiritual experience just last week…something which has moved me and changed me in ways I am still processing – people I know are asking me – who the hell are you, and what did you do with “our Angela?”

                    Let me tell you what this experience did for me: Twenty YEARS of pain, hurt, sorrow, and anger…literally POURED out of me and were replaced by a love that I have never before experienced.

                    And for the first time in my life, I understand you. I understand ALL of you who stand against the LGBT community in the name of God.

                    I don’t hate you, and neither does John Pavlovitz. In fact, I love you. I mean that sincerely and utterly. I love you…and I pity you (not in a pejorative way) and I am sad for you.

                    You see…people like you, Karen…you do what you do because you believe this wins you favor with your God (which I choose to call The Sacred – it is not my place to name or define The Sacred) – what this means is that YOU ARE AFRAID OF GOD!!

                    And I pity you for that. I am sad for you…in fact, my heart BREAKS for you. Because, as a transgender woman, I spent twenty YEARS afraid of The Sacred. And I know from personal experience…what a horrible place that is to be.

                    And that is where you are.

                    If only you could know what I now know…and feel what I feel…you would no longer feel the need to do what you do – standing against LGBT people in hate in the name of your God.

                    And I truly want that for you, Karen. Not for me…not for the LGBT community…I WANT IT FOR YOU. Because you are in a very terrible, hurting and lonely place. My heart breaks for you, Karen.

                    Blessings unto you, even as you hate me.
                    Love,
                    Angela

                    P.S. This is posted further down, too…but I really wanted to get this close to the top so that Karen, and people who think like her can see it. I love all of you who stand against me in hate in the name of your God. Even as you hate me…I love you. Truly, I do. And my heart breaks for all of you.

                    • Well said. 🙂 I’d like to add only that the author is not “bigoted” toward the (often willfully) ignorant, as this Karen states, but frustrated. Huge difference. Willful ignorance and unreasonable hatred are just symptoms of the greater disease, which is fear. I, too, pity her and those many, many others like her. We can only hope that they will become somehow enlightened in this lifetime, and if not, at least do no more harm than they’ve already done.
                      Brightest blessings. <3

                    • The Sacred? His name is Jesus Christ. And if you can’t utter his name, you have no place with or in him.

                      So, first, are you one of the chosen? Do you know Christ and does He know you? Have you been born again?

                      Secondly: We who are in Christ do not identify with our sexual identity, but in Christ alone.

                      Yet, that does not mean that one cannot be attacked by the enemy so much so as to be confused about their own identity.

                      God does not give us a spirit of confusion, which is the plight of the Transgendered person, but a spirit of Love and of Power.

                      Having said that, Jesus loves you and has already forgiven your sins, that is every sin but the sin of faithlessness or Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

                      Moving on, if you identify with your humanity (transgender, homosexual, whatever) and if you are truly saved, then you are forgetting the divine. As I said earlier, our only identification as Christians is Sons of God. We are in this world through way of our humanity, but we are not of this world as is evidenced by our new creation status, God’s declaration that we are aliens and strangers here, and the fact that we died, and are now hidden with Christ spiritually.

                      If you are Born Again, God does not see your sin or your humanity/flesh/sinful nature.

                      Of course, if you’ve been baptised, you have no sinful nature.

                      Conservative Christianity or rather, Evangelical Christianity, whatever that means, typically identifies with the flesh and self-righteousness or “works.”

                      To them, God is still judging us based upon our performance as men. I purposely use the term men as God defines humanity by such a noun.

                      But we are under grace now. God no longer counts mens sins against them.

                      Our strange behaviors are just that, behavior, which has nothing to do with Christianity.

                      A beautiful man once wrote: God did not come to make bad men good. He came to make dead men alive. Brennan Manning.

                    • Angela, so well written. A very “Godly” point to both straights and gays to remember to love each other in spite of our differences or beliefs. If we could find more love with each other, maybe we could also find more acceptance.

                    • Wow, thank you so much for writing this, Angela, from another Angela. I struggle often with how to love my enemies, just praying about it this morning — and here is your lovely post. Thank you Angela and thank you God.

                    • Beautiful Angela, you have clearly been touched by God’s grace and been enlightened. I experiences that bliss 15 years ago and will always know that God and love are absolute. What you have now is the TRUTH. Continue to spread the love.

                    • Hey Mike,
                      That’s funny.
                      There’s one of two things going on here….

                      either
                      1. She prefers not to use God’s name directly. God’s chosen people, the Jews, also traditionally had an aversion to writing or speaking God’s name lightly. If she has so much reverence for God’s name and chooses to show it by using another term, that kindof sounds like the opposite of disrespect to me.

                      or
                      2. She has her own personal name for God. There’s a lot of names for God. In my very conservative Christian school, we had a large parade every year for the lower grades where we would make banners to show case the many names for God that are all entirely Biblical or ‘cannon’ and widely accepted in well-renowned hymns. I regret to say I forgot most of them, but many were quite uncommon and several likened him to a star or flower ( for example, Rose of Sharron ). Most of them never appear in the Bible. Much like ‘The Sacred’ they were made up by someone who had high reverence for Him and sought to praise Him with such a name. A lot of folks must not have been so rudely-minded as you are, because they seemed to like the names as well, and they stuck around. There is nowhere in the Bible which states that God and Christ are the only names we may use. In several places in the Bible other names or capitalized phrases are also used, sometimes by God Himself.

                    • Wow Angela, you sound like an amazing woman. I’m finding it very difficult to attend any church without having to listen to the bigotry and oppression of others. Not sure if I can ever get there.

                    • Angela B~ you are the kind of Christian I strive to be! Jesus told us to love one another as He loves us. That is all I want to focus on. I praise our God for your spirit! Amen, Sister. Amen.

                    • Angela, Thank you for your post. I believe that anyone who identifies as a Christian should show the love of Christ to everyone, as they are. If a person’s prejudices and hates get in the way, they have something they should really pray about.

                    • What I dont understand is if faith is optional then why continue and promote one that historically is laden with more hate and evil than you can swing a stick at!
                      Why do you feel you can manipulate the contents of that book and stay at peace with your neighbor. I understand that the need for belonging within a community is very relevant and intrinsic to our nature but why participate and endorse a book that allows and sanctions (but not limited to) rape,incest,polygamy,genocide,infanticide,war,slavery,misogyny.
                      Its the same cognitive dissonance that has the world at a fever pitch right now.
                      If you want the freedom,love,tolerance and peace that you are saying we deserve then im 1000% positive it wont be found between the pages of that 2000 old message of hate called the bible.

                    • May I ask where I the Bible it allows for that? I’m genuinely asking and hoping for a response because that does indeed sound concerning. Thank you!

                    • As an old lady Christian – John very eloquently expressed my thoughts and those of many of my friends. I am so happy you are feeling so much better.

              • I agree. Life is hard, especially for our youth, especially when they are a little different in any way. They need to know Jesus always has his arms wide open for all that embrace Him.

              • “Scientific ignorance being treated as if it’s a Christian virtue.”

                Though the first part of your statement may be somewhat correct…. The spiteful ignorance of the second part pretty much negated your argument.

                Congrats on winning the ignorance-net.

                • Could you spend a little less time name calling and a little more time writing a coherent statement? What 1st and 2nd part? It’s 1 thought. I’m finding it really difficult to reconcile your personal assault on the author, who wasn’t talking to you, o was he, a good defense for your Christian love and virtue. Help me out and leave out the vitriol long enough to explain, in a loving way, what you are thinking.

                  • Well now the author of this reply wasn’t talking to you directly either, was he? You just perpetuated the issue you complained about, all in the same sentence.

                    • I do sincerely find all of this interesting. Certainly, and quite obviously, there a many varied opinions here. That’s fine, even enjoyable, but I don’t understand everything here. Why are you at each other’s throats?

                • I’ve seen more than one person calling themselves Christian that refused ANY scientific proof because it was a deceit “of the devil”.
                  Nor do I see any reason not to call a hypocrit a hypocrit. As I recall Christ was pretty offended with the officious Pharisees of his day. I don’t think he’d be any happier (is any happier) with the ones of today.
                  I believe his comments were spot on.

                  • It’s impossible for to be both loving and judging at the same time. It’s my job to decide which activity I think Jesus would prefer that I spend my time doing.

                    • Read 1st Corinthians 5:1-9 and tell me if Paul was being judgemental when he told he Corinthians to kick a guy out of church for his sexual behavior. Then tell me if he loved this guy and this church or not?

                      djrevoluzion@yahoo.com where I can be reaached. Shawn Barfield on facebook

                      lets talk

                    • Shawn, tell me the last time a heterosexual man was kicked out of his church for sleeping with a woman or hiring a prostitute? It doesn’t happen to straight people no matter how much they fall ( or worse things that are done by men in positions of power) They are forgiven over and over again.

                      Tell me why you discriminate against LGBTQ people then?

                    • This statement stands by itself as a judgement. “It is impossible” is a not only a negative judgement but it is also your opinion. To be loving is to actively choose acceptance despite our own personal filters and perspectives. Good luck.

                    • Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be. Emerson

                    • Uh, Shawn… 1 Corinthians 1:9 actually appears to deal with mother-son incest: “It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife.” That’s verse 1, and it’s the ONLY reference to sexual immorality until verse 9, which condemns no specific behavior. The rest of the passage you cite deals with stuff like — oh, I don’t know, arrogance, boastfulness, and their opposites, humility, sincerity, and truth. You’ve READ HOMOSEXUALITY INTO THAT PASSAGE. It’s not there.

                    • No no no, Rebecca, not if you are a Christian! Jesus said “Judge not, lest you be judged.” !!!!!

                  • What I love is that these people who spew their rhetoric about science being evil via the internet on their computers while sitting in their air conditioned homes and texting on their cell phones–all of which would not be possible without, gasp! science.

                  • Jesus also suggested rather strongly that we aught to remove the beam from our own eye before removing the speck from our brother’s eye. I realize that’s a little hard to do. But sharing Jesus with people (you can’t do that if you don’t know Him personally, btw), would be a lot more effective. And it’s actually what we’re all called to do. It’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict people of sin, not ours. Our job is to get to know Jesus personally (that takes spending time with Him in His Word and in prayer), share what God has done for us, and show people what God is like. I honestly don’t see much of that in anything on this page. Sorry…

                  • I would just be a bit cautious when discerning issues that plague men. There could almost always be a “scientific” explanation for a demonic-influenced condition.

                    Having said that, the flesh will always be attacked. This is the only part of us that Satan can still get at, when God allows such. But the flesh counts for nothing. It is corrupt. And so when we “sin” or if you prefer, are chemically-challenged, (genetic, metabolical, physiological), it too counts for nothing.

                    Then there’s the side of us who are self-righteous because of our “love.” Since we can “accept” those who are or have been shunned, that makes us “better” people. In that is also the filthy rag of works.

                    The Righteous are the few. The chosen by God. These new creations are separate in that by no choice of their own, were saved from the flesh and its ultimate destination. And we can boast in the Lord, knowing His love transends transgender-ism.

                • You keep using the word ignorance, when I’m not quite sure you know the meaning. Especially when considering the alluded “first part” of his statement makes zero sense on its own. I fear that your ignorance may be in your virtue, sir.

                • Scientific ignorance? Yep.

                  Example 1
                  Religious claim: Earth is only thousands of years old
                  Scientific truth: Earth is estimated to be 4.59 billion years old

                  Example 2:
                  Evolution is a well established theory by both evidence left behind, AND by experiment.

                  Example 3:
                  I’ve also encountered people who are so desperate to take the Bible literally that they recast the heliocentric model of the solar system back into a geocentric model.

                  So, yes, many Christians seem to enthrone scientific ignorance because their interpretations of Holy Scripture apparently forbid them from taking an honest view of science.

                  • oh boy. Evolution is not proved, particualarly macro evolution. If it were, God would be a liar and thus, cease to make sense.

                    Whether or not the earth is old or young, is not proven despite the vast amount of worldview scientists who deny the evidence of a young earth.

                    Science has become a religion. Despite the fact that God created science or at least, the laws of, people like you prefer to separate them.

                    Stating something is a fact, does not make it one.

                    Experiment? If you were to peruse the website: ICR.ORG, for example, you may find that experiments are often tainted from the perspective of a humanist.

                    Both creation and evolutionary scientists have the same evidence to work with. They could not be further divided.

                    The most deadly ideology on this planet stemmed from men like Darwin. To remove God and replace him with stardust is a vile thing indeed. Then to infuse generations of kids with ridiculous notions like the ancestor tree, without one shred of transitionary proof, is criminal.

                    I will believe Jesus Christ alone. And so will every one of HIs disciples. Until the earth is removed and beyond.

                    • “I will believe Jesus Christ alone. And so will every one of HIs disciples. Until the earth is removed and beyond.”
                      Jesus never taught anything about science. Refusing to believe what’s been shown to be true doesn’t make you faithful. It makes you blind. And redefining science so it fits your POV doesn’t change the facts.

                    • Wow, you’re dumb. Holy cannoli. You’re forgetting that science can actually PROVE artifacts and bones and rocks to be millions of years old. Jesus and dinosaurs were not hanging out together.

                • You obviously haven’t been dealing with some of the self-identified Christians I’ve seen for the past few years. Or with Betsy DeVos, for that matter.
                  You haven’t seen the news stories about parents letting their children die rather than getting them medical treatment. Or the claims that no one needs anything but ‘natural’ food and clean water to fend off any and all disease.
                  You’ve missed the posts from people who believe the earth is flat, or only 6000 years old.
                  Not just scientifically ignorant, but willfully, pridefully ignorant.

              • please can you post credible proof that he is gay much less a bigot? considering he is sharing his opinion and everything he said is fairly factual I think you are the bigotted one remeber God said to nor bear false witness which is what you just did by saying he is obviously gay

                • Love this! Pastor John is a messenger of God, so the more people who insult or try to ridicule him, the more they look discreditable.

                  • So, the book of Romans doesn’t count? Has the bible been rewritten? Homosexuality is just as much of a sin as is adultery. Sorry, but this “pastor” is wrong.

                    • John, the reference was to what Jesus said. Pretty sure Jesus did not say anything in Paul’s epistle to the Romans.

                    • Instead of showing love, in this case man made law has trumped the Bible’s law and made love between two people against the law, meaning they can’t get married. Just because that Sunday school song sad red, and yellow, black and white only, and didn’t include same sex love, it doesn’t mean they don’t have the right to be in love. The Bible says God, and in turn his Son, love everyone. Additionally, who are we, as common man, to say well God sure screwed up with those people. We are all just who we are, and it’s real easy to cherry pick from the Bible to make a point. My point is understand it all, read it all, and hope God and his universe will bring clarity. Making statements without clarity is nothing more than emotion.

                    • Sure it does. I love chapter 2, which is what Paul was building up to when he wrote chapter 1.

                      Romans 2:1-4

                      You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

                    • none of the letters need to be in the Bible , they are mostly about building churches , and none of this Paul was saying things Jesus forgot , Jesus was God after

                    • “Has the bible been rewritten? ”
                      Yes. It has been rewritten, edited, translated, translations translated hundreds of times.
                      When the books that now comprise the bible were written the english language did not exist. So, yes of course the bible has been rewritten.

                    • If you read a bit further, Paul says: “but that is what some of you were.”

                      He could list every sin known to man. What he was truly saying is that all of us were steeped in sin. But all of us in Christ are not any longer.

                      This is a spiritual truth. Though the flesh will forever sin, God doesn’t see that any longer. We are covered by grace.

                      The Word of God is to be interpreted by the Word of God. Always look at law verses in light of the verses of grace.

                    • Yes he is. The Bible really couldn’t be any more clear. Everyone tries to negate it w/ well this sine is bad too or Jesus didn’t talk about homesexualit, blah blah blah. Pointing out other sins doesn’t negate one over the other – they r both sins – one doesn’t make the other any less of a sin. While Jesus may have not directly mentioned it the subject & God’s teaching is very clear in more than one place – the clearest one of all – “man shall not lie w/ another man as he would w/ a woman” – I really don’t see how this can be interpreted any other way. Transgenrism it’s simply going against what God made you & who he wanted you to be in favor of what YOU WANT – just as any other sin – putting our wants/desires over God’s. LGTB will forever try to tweak the Bible to fit their agenda but it simply will not – ever. Denial & an desperate search for acceptance – while man may choose to accept them it is really whether God will & that is something that they will find out.

                    • @sdelony
                      You wrote: “man shall not lie w/ another man as he would w/ a woman… I don’t know how it could be any more clear.”
                      Up until the early 17th century, NO Bible said that. And that is NOT what the Hebrew text says. Scripture in the original languages never even mentions homosexuality, let alone condemns it.
                      What you are defending isn’t scripture but medieval prejudice.

                  • It’s the same evidence that supports the air you breathe Bradley. You can’t see it but it’s there. Just like God. It’s called faith.

                    • No, we have strombolites to thank for the air we breathe. You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. Scientific ignorance once again.

                    • Excuse me? There is scientific proof about air. For Pete sake! It’s called oxygen and is chemical compound.

                  • That’s pretty easy Brad, You explain to me how the double slit experiment works, explain to me how a single particle can be aware of us observing it…? Oh… You can’t? That must mean you don’t know everything. Prove to me there is no God.

                    • Surely the burden of proving or disapproving the existence of God(s) is within the hands of the believer not the nonbeliever. To simply say that it is a matter of faith does not prove or disapprove the existence of something.

                      As in my own experience growing up I wanted to believe. I attended churches spoke to pastures and their congregations just trying to get someone to give me some factual proof of the existence of a God. I always met a wall with a big sign that read “It is a matter of having faith”.

                      A child can have all the faith in the world that they can fly when they jump off of the back yard shed and still end up with a broken arm. Simply put… faith is not a solid means of proof.

                    • The skeptic doesn’t have to prove that a claim is false. He or She only has to be skeptical of it to be justified in demanding evidence. The person who makes the truth-claim however is required to supply evidence. This is called “the burden of proof”.

                      I am an atheist because there is no evidence in the truth-claims of religion. I don’t have proof that the god of the Bible (Yahweh) is completely fictional. I also don’t have proof that Zeus is fictional, or Thor, or Rhhlor.

                      Thankfully, logic and reason are on my side.

                    • You are confusing faith and Religion. There is no Religion without faith, yet we can have faith without religion.
                      Your argument only undercuts your conclusion since the articles of faith you describe are as likely to be explained by science as they are by religion. Read Biocentrism by Dr. Robert Lanza.

                    • Shame on you.
                      You should know better. Proving non-existence of anything is impossible.

                  • Can you prove there isn’t? Measuring air and coloring it doesn’t prove that. Can you prove there is love? NO, but you see that people do love by their actions, just like people who believe pray, and go to church. They have faith…that is the key.

                  • I can’t really prove it to you, but I can suggest a good read. Mere Christianity by CS Lewis can be a springboard for understanding a Christian’s concept of faith. Much like I can’t prove to you that I love my family, I can’t prove to you that I have a God who loves me. But I am certain of both things. And I am also just as certain that He loves us all and does not want us to judge each other for who we choose to love.

                  • You don’t belong on this blog. It is not our job to provide evidence of God. The Lord says that every man knows He exists because of the created evidence.

                    You will not believe because you are not chosen to believe at this time. You have no ears or eyes to hear or see. Though a man would be raised from the dead, you would not believe it.

                  • So Bradley imagine with me theres a pie chart that represents all knowledge. Do you believe you know 100% of that pie chart? If not do you think there could be a god in the percent that you don’t know? Im not saying my God is the God, well i am, but that was just one way to kind of show you that a god is quite feesible

              • John is obviously a pedophile. Anyone who thinks someone is gay with no evidence has a twisted mind and touches children. Obviously. The correlation is OBVIOUS.

              • Actually John, research indicates that many who spend their time DISTANCING themselves from LGBT issues, are infact gay- Distancing themselves so that no one will guess. People who can deal with other peoples sexuality I would have thought were just comfortable with their own sexuality and do not feel threatened by such debates.

              • What would give you the idea that he is gay? Just because someone is enlightened about someone else’s plight doesn’t mean that they are the exact same.

              • Everyone who’s married and a member of any group but stands for the rights of others is obviously a *secret* member of the group they defend, says half this column of people. Okay, so if this is true, and I am a married white woman who openly disagrees with the racism against black people, that makes me secretly black? That’s how stupid you sound. This brilliant man has an opinion just like all of you, except you take offense as if it was directed at you specifically… This only proves that you know who you are and know in your heart that you sin in the ways John has enumerated. God bless you all; I pray for your revelations.

                • Indeed. Is it not a FASCINATING REVELATION…that John Pavlovits displays a general garment…and so many here claim it is cut to their fit?

            • Hmm…building up people instead of beating them down? What a novel idea. Funny how you only come up with that when it’s your group that’s feeling the burn.

              • It’s not “your group”, it’s God’s group and we’re all part of it and we’re all feeling the burn because we can’t stop picking and sniping at each other. The point of this article is love-that is what Jesus preached. Judgement is for God, not us.

                • I am wondering what the future will hold for conservatives in the U.S. Back in the late 20th century, they attacked the black minority (about 15%) by fighting against interracial marriage. In the early 21st century, they attacked gay and lesbian minority (about 5%) over marriage equality. Now they are fighting the transgender minority (0.01%?) community. History seems to show that they will lose this one also. What minority is left to attack next? albinos? red-heads?

                  Haters gotta hate. They define themselves largely by whom they hate. I wonder if they will return to their ancient focus of hatred: left handed people. I hope not; I am left handed.

                  • Check your facts. Liberal democrats opposed desegregation at a greater percentage than republicans. Look up the civil rights act of 1957. Freeing slaves was one of the founding missions of the Republican party, which they succeeded in. True conservative republicans have always been for equal protection under the law, especially for black people, throughout the century.

                    • Certainly not this century though. But that is neither here nor there. R’s of today hold few mission statements of R’s of yesteryear. But then again, not the point.
                      Is it love or is it hate? That’s the point the writer is trying to make, and he is tired of hate hiding behind the pall of religion.

                    • Casey- you are making the common mistake of equating Democrat = Liberal and Republican = Conservative. Liberals have always been for equality and progress. Dixiecrats and the Party of Lincoln have no resemblance to the two parties of today. Nice try though.

                    • Casey, your grasp of recent history is tenuous at best. The “liberal democrats” of the south that opposed desegregation are now, thanks to Richard Nixon, solidly conservative republicans. “Civil rights act of 1957”?

                  • It will and has consumed our country. This movement of self-righteousness has hijacked the church. Of course, we know that Satan planted weeds in our church.

                    The organized church, the evangelical aspect, believes in the law. They believe that obeying the law, which they can’t do, is what pleases God and will earn them points towards their citizenship in heaven.

                    it’s awful.

                    on the other hand, the true church should not be about the cause of the homosexual. He is about the life of Christ. Does this make sense to you?

                • Well said Janine, it is exactly that! God didnt asks us to judge others and Jesus said to love thy neighbor as we would love him. Stop spreading hate and fear!

                  • That is the whole point of this article. To point out that Christians need to stop trying to pass judgement on others. It isn’t their job, right, or responsibility. So knock it off and leave people alone. Plain and simple.

                    • Jennifer, real in your groupings. I am a christian and I don’t have problems with LGBURPQWT people or left handers, or anyone else with an opinion different than mine. That is what makes us ALL human.

                • That’s interesting…I don’t get a spirit of love at all from this article. The author is doing the exact thing he is saying is wrong for others to do. Quite hypocritical…and very whiney! And for the record, I have never told a gay or transgender person that they are going to hell and have never heard anyone in my church say such a thing, so please do not lump all Christians into this category as, once again, you are doing exactly the thing you say you hate!

                  • Agree. Like any group of people there is always a bad apple. Jesus said love the sinner but not the sin. That is how most Christians live their life.

                  • Mr. Pavlovitz was not lumping all Christians into one group. He was very clearly speaking to those who behave in this decidely unloving manner.

                  • S L Miracle – Thank you! I was thinking exactly the same thing. Lots of anger in this article, and self-righteous Christian bashing.

                    • It’s hard not to be angry at bigots, hypocrites and frauds. If his article hits a nerve well you’re the one that has to live with it.

                  • Indeed. I can speak to that, as a transgender woman. My mother is a born-again Christian. She loves and accepts me completely as her daughter.

                    She even took me into her home when I was all but ruined by Hurricane Katrina.

                    Now, ten years later…after Mom lost her home in the housing crash…I have taken her into MY home. She lives with me now, and we love one another with all our hearts.

                    And she is a Christian. In the true sense of the word. As is John Pavlovitz. I would SO LOVE for my church to call John Pavlovitz as our minister when our current Consulting Minister’s contact is done – I like our current minister, but he is – and was intended to be – temporary. His mission is to shake things up in our church that we may grow, which is WHY he is temporary. We recognized, as a congregation…that we needed what our current minister can do for us that we may grow in the future.
                    And since John IS LOCAL to us…he may well end up getting the call. I hope so. I intend to advocate for him.

            • The people he’s talking about don’t want to talk about Jesus. They’ve already proved that. They are paying more attention to the decisive lies of the corrupted Republican party than the are to anything Jesus taught. They are totally blind and it’s doubtful they will ever see their “error.”

              • I don’t recall seeing “Republicans” mentioned in this article. I’m quite sure there are some Christian “Democrats” who are guilty of the things outlined in this piece, too.

                • There is good and bad in everyone. Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, etc. Pastor’s point is if we are Christians we need to love one another and not tear a person down to self mutilation or suicide if they are LGBT. People are people, we are all made in His image. Key word all.

                • Democrats have their problems too, I will not deny. But the Republicans have those, in spades, plus they have not yet completely disavowed Donald Trump, who if he manages to get elected [Praying to God he never does] will completely destroy this country.

                  Right on, with this article. I was born and raised Southern Baptist, gays were never even *mentioned* in any sermon I heard growing up, that is a *modern* thing, something that happened in perhaps the last 25 years.

              • Really? How is it obvious that he’s gay? I see no sign “I am gay” written on his forehead. I am very happily married to a member of the opposite sex for 20 years and while nor gay, I agree with every one of his points. And if he was gay, who the f cares?

                • Exactly. If I support the civil rights of minorities (or even majorities), must people automatically assume that I belong to that group? I don’t. I belong to a rather large minority group that actually is the majority (females), and I don’t begrudge anyone else the same privileges of your random white guy.

            • … let’s talk about Jesus. That’s the ONLY effective way to make desired changes.

              So, clue me in. 2000 yrs on, what are looking at here. Another 2000 yrs ?? …… 5000 ?

            • RIGHT! Better to spend the time complaining about “those” people. Ugh…Karen’s post and your post illustrate exactly what he is trying to say. Christianity is just for us “special” folks. You know…like an entitlement.

            • Thank you. Such a great addition to the conversation. Way to identify specific arguments and present your own counter arguments supported by facts. Wow. Just wow. If you’re a Christian, I wanna be just like you. Regular old salt of the earth kinda guy. I bet Jesus is preparing a speical place in heaven just for you.

              • I think this is pretty standard for the Christian Right so I don’t know why it’s not okay for everyone else. Jesus was pretty clear in Mark about living your neighbor as you love yourself. There is no greater commandment. I think that condemning people to hell because you are uncomfortable seems to violate this pretty thoroughly.

            • Even your Jesus drove the “moneychangers” out of the temple. Your Jesus did not pull any punches criticizing the Pharisees for their hypocrisy. Calling out hatred and bigotry in the name of religion seems quite “Christ-like” to me.

            • It’s not disagreeing with “Christians who disagree with his stance”, it’s people who call themselves Christian but are NOT at all Christian. I follow the teachings of Jesus, not some made-up radical non-Christian religion.

          • It’s not scripture.. She can’t find a way to twist it into something that suits her other than to wonder why the christlike love she fails to offer herself isn’t presented to her.

              • and the Bible prohibits so many things, especially remarriage… so when you come with the venom towards people on their second marriage then you will have some consistency. the author’s point is that Jesus example and teaching is about how we treat others. Paul’s teaching is about helping badly behaved Christians behave. Paul is not writing to Rome, he’s writing to the Church. Roman’s passage could have more to do with adultery and marriage (singular, for life) than sex per se… tell a man a lie three times he will believe it…

              • John John john, Jesus never condemned homosexuality but he did condemn divorce – multiple times in fact. Yet I see very little vitriol about the divorced in today’s society.

                • However, Jesus DID say that divorce under certain circumstances IS acceptable…like unfaithfulness. Being unfaithful to your partner can be as simple as wanting to be with someone else, instead of your partner or loving someone else while staying married to your partner.

              • Not even classified as sin but an abomination ! there is a big difference in the two I have no idea what bible he is referring to

              • I guess that I have a different interpretation of Romans 1. The passage criticizes some former Christians who had converted to Paganism and engaged in a sexual orgy which included some people engaging in sex with members of the same sex. The reason that Paul gives for his criticism is that they are violating their basic nature which is heterosexual. By the same argument, the passage would seem to criticize any persons with a homosexual orientation who engages in sex with the opposite sex.

                • Bruce

                  You said, “By the same argument, the passage would seem to criticize any persons with a homosexual orientation who engages in sex with the opposite sex.”

                  Not sure if I would agree with that reading of Romans 1. It seems just as judgemental as those who say same sex marriage is against nature and would disparage marriages out there which are of a mixed orientation. Rather I read Romans 1 as an indictment against lust in excess which is harmful and abusive, i.e. against nature. What do you think?

              • Actually, if you read the original greek from someone who has translated it from and knows Greek [There is a cite for this, I just have to find it again.] it was talking about male on male pedophilia much more than consensual, loving homosexual relationships between two adults. What was common back in Ancient Greece? Catamites! Young boy lovers. That is what that verse referred to.

                The other? The Leviticus one?Did not refer to sex at all. Again, mistranslation. I’ll search down the cites for this and show it to you.

                • Paul condemned “arsenokoitai” in both (1 Corinthians 6 & 1 Timothy 1. Unfortunately, it seems to be a word that Paul himself created. Some English translations of the Bible render this “catamites” in English — referring to men who have sex with boys, often boy slaves.

                  I have written a series of essays on these two passages, Romans 1, and other “clobber passages” used to attack the LGBT community. See http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

                  • Technically, arsenokoitai would mean those who have sex with men or males, as arsen is the word for ‘male’. Paidophthuria (if I recall correctly) is the word used in the Letter of Barnabas to refer to the corruption of boys.

              • Romans1 if you actually read the by lines under the title was a compilation of letters written by Paul to the Roman leaders of that time denouncing yo acts of homosexuality they were imposing on their servants. Had nothing to do woth the LGBT community we have today.

                • Actually, sexual action plays only a small part in the letter’s text. The theme is sin, not homosexuality, and the verses in chapter 1 commonly connected with sexuality are followed by
                  Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
                  Romans 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
                  Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

              • Karen, I had to re-read the article and your comment, but I think if you read it again, he is not being unloving toward those who disagree with him, in fact he apologizes for not always coming accross as cheerful. He is calling for us to live our faith and show evidence of our spiritual walk with the Lord by bearing the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. I have to admit, I’m not seeing much of this from some of my fellow Christians on this issue. Judging by some of the scripture posting messages on this site, our brothers and sisters are struggling to engage in quiet and loving discourse, or seeking wisdom. So much angry name calling for a message admonishing us that Jesus told us above all else, love one another.

              • does it REALLY ,,I don’t think you know your Bible to well….First any place you see in The Bible that says homosexual is not original text since the word went even in existence tim the 19th century

                • further more if you under stood the original text of did any sort of research instead of listening to a bigoted preacher,,The romans verse is speaking of Temple prostitution,

            • It is apparent from the replies I have been reading that there are as many interpretations of biblical text as there are sects of Christianity. What is not open to interpretation is the admonition to love those with whom we disagree. To love ones neighbor isn’t always easy and there are no qualifiers ie unless they are gay or muslim or black. I do not claim to be a Christian

          • There’s nothing wrong with her being troubled. The entire article he’s slamming people over and over, forgetting in fact that we are all sinners and we all mess up, and we will never fully represent Jesus because we aren’t perfect.

            • Nick, if anyone is missing the point, it is you. He is not “slamming” people. He’s saying he’s tired of people like her who embrace hatred and use the Lord as their weapon. That is not what Christianity is.

              And I for one am also tired of having to defend myself as a Christian from people who think I am one of these hateful “Christians” who seem to have nothing better to do than crap on other people and ruin their lives. Log in the eye and all that.

              He is likely more than aware that we are all sinners, but that does not excuse the continued hatred the Christian community seems to repeatedly display. We do not REPEAT the sins because we haven’t learned from them.

              Does “Forgive me father, I beat up a kid I thought might be Gay.” And then heading out on Monday to do it all over again sound like Christianity to you? Sure as heck doesn’t to me.

              • Confessing and repenting are two very different. Confessing is acknowledging that you did something. Repenting is sincerely acknowledging that something you did was wrong and making a commitment to not repeat. So many people miss the difference

          • Lol I think you just proved Karen’s point. Read your own comments again slowly. So it’s ok for John to say he is not worried about offending people because he feels he is standing up for the truth. He just described exactly how Christians who disagree with him feel. Like John, we do not hate the people that we disagree with. But that doesn’t mean we are ready to be quiet at the risk of saying something that makes someone else feel bad. It seems to me you have no problem being condescending to Karen because she doesn’t share your view. At least she wasn’t rude.

          • I love you. That was a great response. I’m pretty sure no matter how slow she read it she won’t get it. Lol It’s sad.

          • God is unchanged, sin is sin and God will judge everyone according to his righteousness. I will continue working at surrendering my old nature to God and growing into Christ’s nature.

        • A bigot is someone who is intolerant of those holding different opinions. However, he’s calling Christians on their intolerance–not the same thing. If tolerance requires us to tolerate intolerance, it’s not worth a damn.

          • …and tolerance means respecting others’ differing opinions. [ ‘tolerance’ doesn’t mean accept, or approve. ] You can only have exhibit tolerance when you have two different views. ‘Agree to disagree’ is a better definition of tolerance.

              • We’re all eternally damn ed unless we believe in Jesus Christ and repent from our sinful ways. Do you believe that adultery is a sin? When Jesus forgave the adultress he said you are forgiven go and sin no more. Weather she did or not we don’t know. He said let your yes be yes and your no be no. No need to explain why. No gray area to dwell in.

                • Steve

                  Why are you asking me if adultery is sin?

                  We the man asked Jesus what GOOD thing must I do to have eternal life, Jesus replied, Whay do you ask me about what is good? There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.

                  Then the man asked which ones?

                  Jesus said, You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false witness, honour your mother and father and love your neighbour as yourself,

                  Can I ask you this Steve did Jesus miss anything?

                • That is not what Jesus himself is quoted as saying in the Sheep and Goats section of Matthew 25. There, Jesus gives only one criterion for salvation and the attainment of Heaven: good works towards suffering people.

                  It is Paul and other followers of Jesus who reversed this criterian and made belief about Jesus to be the main criterion for salvation.

                  • Bruce, that’s true, but what I have quoted is considered a true saying as well, Matthew 19:19,20 and Jesus goes on to say in verse 21 if you want to be perfect sell all you have and give to the poor

                    Much of what Jesus says is pointed to the individuals he is speaking to. We are meant to look within ourselves to consider what could we be doing to benefits others rather than ‘only’ benefitting ourselves

                • That is not what Jesus himself is quoted as saying in the Sheep and Goats section of Matthew 25. There, Jesus gives only one criterion for salvation and the attainment of Heaven: it is good works towards suffering people — the sick, hungry, imprisoned, etc.

                  It is Paul and other followers of Jesus who reversed this criterion and made beliefs about Jesus to be the main criterion for salvation.

                  • Bruce, that’s true, but what I have quoted is considered a true saying as well, these are just one or two of the paradoxical sayings of Jesus as written in the Bible.
                    I wonder why Jesus did that?

        • I think he is.

          But he’s only concerned with liberal issues.
          What about abortions?
          Is he tired of thousands of lives being murdered?
          I didn’t think so.

          • Who are you to judge? Lets say he is pro choice or better yet pro abortion. Who are you to take away an individuals freedom of choice. Are you to act as God’s enforcer and make laws of condemning people for their actions? Only Jesus will judge and you clearly are not Jesus so if you are against abortion then do not have one. Its that simple.

            • And if you don’t agree with stealing, don’t steal. Let’s make it your choice and not force anything on anyone. Let’s not have laws about anything and just let people be their own moral compass… Now that would work well.

              • When you care as much about the born child as you do the unborn one, then maybe your argument will have teeth. Do you support free Healthcare for children via Medicaid? Do you vehemently oppose homelessness among children as much as you do abortion. Furthermore, priests and clergy are more likely to commit pedafilia than transgender or homosexual people, soacne you should ban children from going to church..

                • Hey, I appreciate your answer, but I think you should actually answer the argument rather than building a poor straw man. It isn’t fun to read arguments where somebody makes a point about morality being enforced by law, and then see somebody completely avoid that point to say “WELL YOU DON’T ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT PEOPLE SO YOUR ARGUMENT DOESN’T MATTER.” It isn’t cute, and it makes you look like an intellectual troglodyte.

                • Well said. I have frequently called on those who call themselves pro-life to oppose the death penalty and war. I don’t believe a person can claim to be pro-life and support war and the death penalty.

              • So… you’re saying that if there were no rules or laws forbidding it, you would just naturally steal stuff all the time? So you need religion and rules because otherwise you’re a terrible person? Lots of us have a very strong moral compass and it has nothing to do with religion. religious =/= morality

              • So, as long as I do what I think is right and everyone else does the same we are good to go? Morality isn’t the same thing as Christianity. There are people who think murder is moral… when they deem in justifiable… so we should be Ok with that?There are certain things in Scripture that allows each individual to choose for themselves. (That is in Romans where Paul talks about not eating meat around the Jews)… However, there are certain laws that are perfectly clear. Homosexual behavior is forbidden… in the old AND new testament. I am not daming anyone to hell. I know that Im a sinner and need so much grace on a daily basis. However, that doesn’t mean that I have to say that something is right when the Bible says it’s wrong. It makes me angry when people call conservative Christians bigots because they hold to their convictions.

                • No, but you were told to exhibit tolerance. Which means *not rubbing in someone else’s face that you hate how they live.* You have every right to how you feel. You don’t have a right to make them *know* you do. See the difference there?

                • I’m ok with Conservative Christians holding to the methods of interpretation of Scripture they used a few years ago to insist God made black people less than and claim scripture supported slavery, or Women less than and claimed scripture supported husbands physically discipining their wife’s and controlling the money, not allowing women to vote or to be educated, people to racially intermarry….all those things they have used the scripture to support through picking and choosing passages. I’m ok with that and will love them. What I will not do is stand aside while people try to legislate against them to take away their basic human rights. I will not stand by while people call for those Conservative Christans to be able to lose their jobs, families, housing, the right to marry, etc, because they believe, based on the true and inspired word of God, perfectly and completely understood by them, that non-whites were designated by God to serve whites along with the rest of the animal kindom. We still have those folks here in TN. But I also will not stand by as they try to take those rights and human dignity away from any of God’s other chilren and you shouldn’t either.

                • Erin, You are in correct. History, and scholars have discovered that Paul never actually used any word that is recognized as “homosexuality” in any of the languages at that time, he used a word he coined , “arsenokoitai” Some people believe that Paul made up this word from the Greek words arsenos koiten, found in Lev 20:13 in the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Old Testament, where the biblical, cultural, historical and religious context is temple prostitution. There is not a shred of objective historical evidence to support the belief that anyone in the first century AD understood arsenokoitai to refer to male and female homosexuality in general or used arsenokoitai with that meaning. If he wanted to make it perfectly clear that homosexuality was wrong, then he would have used one of the 17 Greek/Hebrew words in use at the time he wrote, that were clearly understood as homosexuality.

                • “It makes me angry when people call conservative Christians bigots…”

                  The simple answer, then, is don’t act like bigots. I’ve seen a lot of comments here that echo the old “hate the sin, love the sinner” trope, but I wonder how you would feel if secular folk began a “hate the belief, love the believer” campaign. And if you think you’re being persecuted for being Christian, just remember–there are no laws telling you who you’re allowed to love or where you’re allowed to pee. When Christian kids are routinely beat up for being Christian–like gay kids are–then you can cry persecution. Until such time, do not speak about how much it “angers” you to be called out for your inconsistent and cruel convictions; you are not qualified.

              • It’d work for me. I’d buy a gun and shoot half of these idiots that crossed me like they used to back in the old days.

          • Anti abortion stance is about right to birth, the church does not care what happens to the child, it is a punishment to the mother for sinning…

            • You clearly don’t go to church. And if you do, you may be going to the wrong one. All of the churches I’ve been to have handfuls of families that adopt and foster. My last pastor recently adopted 3 brothers from Uganda (already have 3 children of their own) and a woman in my church small group currently has 5 children, 4 of them we’re adopted from a mother who kept having children with different men and couldn’t care for them. Just because you want to believe the church is ignoring motherless children, doesn’t mean that is the truth. And by church, I mean the body of Christ.

        • Really, you are anonymous get over your stupidity, he didnt stutter, nor did he give you any reason to say “are you serious” What part did you NOT believe he was serious about? Cause from where i stand as a straight very married woman, with children and believe me many grand children, so understand what he said, and surely dont have to say in an ANONYMOUS way “IS HE SERIOUS” The churches now a days are so pathetic its unreal in their “beliefs” And yes, i was baptised , but honestly im ashamed to admit it, due to ignorance & judgemental bs from the churches , pastors, and followers that so makes many people like me sickend to even admit were Christians. Do i believe there is a god, i did, i would like to believe there is still a god and a heaven or i wouldnt of been able to feel good about my moms passing, and the hopes she actually was going to a better place, i believe we live in hell and i pray they live in a wonderful world full of love and non bs Christians that dont spew bs that the god way back when would never of preached like the followers of god now a days spew around the world. More power to you “Tired” I understand why you are tired. Im tired of the people that think its ok and ridicule the ones that don’t agree like me. I know i will be bashed for this, but screw you i dont care, you are the ones that have children, and make them believe your beliefs until they “come out” and then what? you abandone them? you hate them? you send then to a place that says “they can cure them of being gay?” You all need to take a step back and think about that, cause you had children cause you wanted to be parents, not to disown your children cause they love the same sex. Well im glad i really do love my children / grandchildren cause i will love them no matter what they choose in life….Good night haters and pretenders cause in my eyes thats all you are if you truly dont get what his point is.

        • I am in complete agreement with John about lgbt people. And I know conservative Christians who don’t agree with me. Trouble is, John has drawn a caricature I don’t know. I don’t know anybody who thinks because you’re gay you’re going to hell. So the conservative Christians I know would read this, say “he doesn’t know us,” and move on. Doesn’t seem very helpful in the end. Maybe its cathartic for liberal Christians, but not so helpful for the cause. I admit, maybe there are some of these types out there — but by not differentiating, by making Tim Keller or NT Wright out to be the same as Westboro Baptist, you’ve not addressed anyone helpfully.

          • I understand what you’re saying… but to be honest, the overwhelming majority of conservative Christians I have known over the past 45 years at least fully believe LGBT people are going to hell. Some believe they are possessed by evil spirits. And many of them are filled with hatred. I am glad you don’t know many like that. But there are a great many of them. In some denominations, the majority of the membership is like that. That includes the denomination I came from. Westboro Baptist differs from some of them only in the fact that they are not ashamed of their hatred and don’t try to hide or disguise it.

        • If he agreed with Christ’s teaching, he would know that jesus stated that God created us male and female instead of claiming that Jesus said nothing about it.

          Love is important and we must show love to others but we must also not deny the word of God just because others hate what it says.

          • Intersex people — those with chromosomes or organs that do not match just one sex or the other — actually exist. So you’re either saying God didn’t create them, or your interpretation of the words “male” and “female” is not what the Bible means.

            • Thank you for your logic and reason! 1 in every 1500 people or so are born intersexed. And many don’t even know it unless it has caused a medical issue or they have outward signs. Nature is so diverse!

              • When I worked in hospitals years ago, a baby would be born occasionally with both sexual organs and parents would have to choose which sex — terrible responsibility for them. These situations have existed forever and are nothing new — just the hullabaloo over it.

                • Actually the parents didn’t “have to choose which sex”. They could just let the child be whatever sex they felt they were – if any. The intersex community has looked for even one person who is happy to have had (non-lifesaving) “sex assignment surgery” carried on on them before they could consent – in vain. The few who have been spared such surgery are the happiest people you could hope to meet.

              • ” pedophiles usually don’t identify as homosexual; the majority identify as heterosexual, even those who abuse children of the same gender. They are sexually aroused by extreme youth, not by gender.

                In contrast, child molesters often exert power and control over children in an effort to dominate them. [some] do experience sexual desire for adults but molest children episodically, for reasons apart from sexual desire, much as rapists enjoy power, violence, and controlling their humiliated victims. Indeed, research strongly suggests that a child molester isn’t any more likely to be homosexual than heterosexual.

                In fact, some research shows that for pedophiles, the gender of the child is immaterial. Accessibility is more the factor in whom a pedophile abuses. This may explain the high incidence of children molested in church communities and fraternal organizations, where the pedophile may more easily have access to children.

                In these situations, an adult male is trusted by those around him, including children and their families. Males are often given access to boys to mentor, teach, coach, and advise. Therefore, a male pedophile may have easier access to a male child. In trying to make sense of an adult male’s sexually abusing a male child, many of us mislabel it as an act of homosexuality, which it isn’t.”

                Think of the difference between loving another person who you want to live life with and lusting after someone who is unable to reciprocate as an equal then you will understand the distinction.

                • Excellent points, although it’s important to be aware that most paedophiles don’t molest children, and a significant number of child molesters are not paedophiles. Paedophilia is the attraction, not the action.

                • i keep hearing people say research shows this. How about backing up your statement with the research . it would be like me saying research says men are really women and vice versa without proof im just spouting out my opinion and expect you to believe it,

                  • Its a quote (the parts in quotation) from an article not a research paper sorry for not referencing it. It’s the best I could pull together as I am not an expert :/ But there is a lot of material out there on the subject which says the same thing.

                  • Because one would assume that you are perfectly capable of looking at the body of research for yourself. Please don’t attack the author for your laziness..

                • Explain that to a young boy (about 12) who is sexually molested by an older man. I have had two very dear, close friends (one was my husband) whose lives were nearly destroyed by these perverted people.

                  • unfortunately the statistics show that the perpetrators are more likely to identify as ‘christian’ than ‘gay’… It is not acceptable because it is not treating other people with respect. When someone dominates another it is not what Jesus taught. Which is the point o f the author here. The more i read and think about faith, the more i’m convinced it is an internal faith. That is about how i treat others not about making others people conform to my views and make me feel comfortable… Again so many children were abused by heterosexual members of all denominations… so sad that a child can’t be safe… as you treat the smallest child you are treating me…

                  • Chris,
                    May I speak to that 12 year old boy?
                    You see, that 12 year old boy was also me. And my abuser was my older brother.
                    Today, I am a proud, strong and happy transgender woman. My brother, a Southern Baptist, holier-than-thou who condemns me to Hell for what I am.

                    But he was okay with me being who I was…when there was some benefit for HIM in it. When he could blackmail me into doing his perverted will on me…the price of his silence (I did not feel like getting my butt kicked every day after school if they knew the truth about me)

                    Today, I do not hate him. Not even in spite of what he did to me back then. I am sad for him and I pity him and I love him…even as he hates me and refuses to acknowledge me as his sister.

                • Thank you Kathy. Incest also has no sexual preference. They will abuse any child they have power and control over. I’ve also known women who married men who’s only motive was to get to her children. It may seem crass and cold but background check a romantic partner.

                • Yes. Its a known fact that majority of pedophiles are straight and white. Its not about sex. Its about power and control.

                  • Melissa is correct on that. Unfortunately, I know about pedophiles first hand as my father is one and I have extensive experience assisting other victims of childhood sexual assault. The ratio of heterosexual perpetrators to homosexual perpetrators is the same as the general public. It does seem to be a conscious choice, a learned behavior rather than a birth trait. Rape is about power, not sexual intimacy.

                    • Agreed -with the added proviso if you wanted access to children would you pose as homosexual or heterosexual to get to them? The stigma and ignorance surrounding homosexuality means your access would be more difficult if you presented as gay. And by this I also mean to say that adult sexual orientation is irrelevant anyway as pedophiles want children of any gender. What is important though is if you want to.protect children pay attention to men passing as heterosexual .

                • Wrong. Quit thumping your Bible and go read it instead—Genesis. God created humans to be unsinful and unaware of right and wrong. Awareness of right and wrong happened only after Eve bit into the forbidden fruit. That awareness only came about through an act of sin.

                  You have sat in church for what—60 years—and you missed that? What in the Hell do you do in church lady?

                  • Don’t blame the woman. It was only after Adam ate the fruit that their eyes were opened (Gen 3:6-7). Paul always blames Adam for man’s fall (Romans 5:19). Granted, Eve was the one beguiled by the serpent and ate first (2Cor 11:3) and drew Adam into her sin, but it was Adam’s disobedience, not Eve’s.

                    • Well said! GOD is not to blame for the sins committed in the world! Satan, the devil, father of the lie is in control of the debauchery going on in the world today! He was cast to the earth and is going about, seeking to devour people. When Jesus Christ returnes, he will end Satan’ reigns.

                    • Colleen

                      We are responsible for our own sins. Perhaps we get tempted and that’s where we fall and sin but Jesus is helping us now by extending grace and encouraging us to do good

                    • Sue

                      I think you are right about curiosity

                      you touched on one of our inherent qualities which can lead to so much good, inventions, discoveries, inspiration and so much misfortune when misdirected.

                    • If man did not know right from wrong before he ate the fruit then how would he understand that it would be wrong to eat the fruit? (Honest question from me)

                    • plus they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (could be right and wrong what do you think ?)

                  • Sorry but you are wrong. When God put Adam and Eve in the garden he told them you may eat from any tree except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day you do you shall surely die. Genesis 2:16&17

                • “God” also (allegedly) created people to use logic and reason to explain things. Except, of course, “God.”

                  • Just a note:

                    The Bible does not use the binary construct of homosexual and heterosexual (those sexual identity labels are modern syntax inventions). But rather, the Bible uses the classifications of male and female. With that said, there are appropriate and inappropriate things that males and females should and should not do sexually speaking.

                • Actually God created us to be blithe and ignorant. It was out eating the forbidden fruit of Eden that gave us that knowledge. The knowledge of right and wrong is what wrought out expulsion from paradise.

                  • Boy are you way off. God created us in his own image. Do you really think he would have created an idiot?

              • You should listen to this song. I am not saying God necessarily created the paedophile the way they are. I am also not saying it’s Lucifer that causes paedophilia (theologically speaking, Lucifer/Satan/the Devil doesn’t just do stuff like that, even in the Bible, the only people he tempted or messed with were basically Job and Jesus, even God doesn’t just “test” people like that, again theologically speaking).

                As a matter of fact, I am an atheist myself, but I am not one to tell Christians that there is no God. I am also not suggesting you necessarily have to be sympathetic to paedos (though that would fall within the teachings of Jesus), but that you should understand it is a disease, something they can’t help to have. The only thing they can do is to not act on those desires.

                Anyway, the song (and believe me, listening is more powerful than just reading the lyrics):
                “I’m afflicted, you don’t care, as at me you scream
                And sympathy, compassion, they are just a dream
                I might ruin their lives but here I am in Hell
                My sickness it leads here to this prison cell
                The heat between my legs that burns so red and hot
                Leaves me now in this cell to mutilated rot
                My desire’s a poison, destroys all that it grasps
                Satan I’m his victim, he tortures me and laughs
                I love the little girl, what am I to do
                When my desire it rises up I just need to screw
                So the bigots full of hate, retribution at me spit
                Kill the bastard they scream, kill the perverted git
                I didn’t choose these foul desires, poisonous and sick
                But when they rise up then I just can’t fight it
                When the mob they rise a paediatrician kill
                Compassion or sympathy? Oh my guts they’ll spill
                So how does this fit in, Creator Divine?
                You afflict me with this curse, I will bide my time
                I love the little girl, what am I to do
                When my desire it rises up I just need to screw
                But in stabbing distance, oh all-mighty God
                I hope your angel bodyguards are up to the job
                You know God almighty, you just make me sick
                All your fascist followers so moronic and thick
                I love the little girl, what am I to do
                When my desire it rises up I just need to screw
                I don’t want to do it, ruin and corrupt
                But the sickness in me it just rises up
                Foulest pervert, disgusting word that fits
                Nothing could be lower, a rancid piece of shit”

                https://youtu.be/gP9KNAnZiDE

                • Sardonicus

                  Thanks for sharing the video I didn’t watch it but I got the message from what you wrote.

                  There are inordinate desires such as lust. Lust can be a desire that expresses itself in abusive or controlling ways. Lust for power, sexual lust i.e. as the lyrics above describe. Lust is different from romantic love or eros which seeks to have union with another and is expressed most often through sexual intimacy. There is an aspect of self sacrifice and giving of the other in mutuality. This cannot happen when there is an imbalance of power or a person is unable to give their consent.

                  Our human nature can get out of whack: lust, addictions, obsessions, vanity, envy, pride, arrogance, things like this which can only really be dealt with through grace and learning self control.

                  It’s much easier when we have people around us who can support, accept us and loves us while we work through the messiness and even the ugliness of our human nature.

                  There are too many people who are left to deal with their secret sins on their own and feel shame and a sense of powerlessness against it rather than being lifted up and dusted off and told they are human and worthy. Once we get a sight of our joint humanity it gives us strength to do better rather than staying stuck in our confusion and misery which is so poignantly written about above. .

              • God create…and it was good!
                Man “fell” and things went terribly wrong.
                The wrong is everything that is against God’s economy, will and plan.
                If what you see in the world opposes the Word, it is anti-Christ in nature.
                So….There’s no picking and choosing.

              • I do believe God created them that way. God also created addicts, gays, transgendered, among others whos brains work differently than others. This does not mean they have to follow through with their Sinful desires. I am a recovering addict and know that drinking or drugging will lead me towards countless sins. So I cannot partake, it is just way I am built. God puts obstacles in our way we just need to rely and trust in him that he will help us if we ask.

                • I can tell you categorically that God does not make addicts. I know this both as a professional in the field and one who is very familiar with the neurological factors of addiction. Let’s stop stigmatizing people and learn to work for their highest good.

                  • well Jimcracky, we don’t know everything for sure so let’s not stigmatize the stigmazed. I am sure Anonymous is hurting enough eh? Anyways who really understands the mess were in? Lord have mercy!

                • Oh dear, God created end Adam & Eve. No addicts, gay or transgendered about them. He created them without sin. I may not be as educated or eloquent as some but I was raised in a Christian home, my brother a minister & I believe in the teaching & the word of the Bible.
                  I do not feel that other Christians should be mean spirited to those who don’t believe as they do & call themselves a Christian. There are many denominations in Christianity & some Churches choose to interpret the Bible differently & some Pastors rain fire & brimstone from the pulpit. Judgement day is where we will all learn our fate. Until then “believe, be baptized & ye shall be saved” is enough for me. That & my relationship to God.

            • I agree with your statement, but since it’s possible alcoholism and drug dependency are “in our dna” should we just accept that as good? Just trying to think on a deeper levelm

                • Jimcracky research shows that there is a genetic predisposition to alcoholism. It doesn’t mean that you necessarily become an alcoholic but that your genetic profile may make you more vulnerable to this illness.

            • You are 100% correct about babies being born with anomalies as you have noted. And I completely agree and know that all life is created by God, not one a mistake. I believe that it is this fallen and broken world we live in that has caused the change in the human cells, not God. Homosexuality is a sin. As well as stealing. How we are born, with or sometimes without our sexual organs (inside or out), can not keep us out of the kingdom of heaven. But knowingly sinning and to continue to sin…..it is okay peeps….God will be the final judge..we Christians just need to love!

                • All scripture should be taken in context. The Gospel of Christ is for everyone who is willing to take it.
                  Galatians 3
                  23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

              • ALL of Matthew 19: 1-12 , not just the cherry picked part where people try to ignore that it is about divorce, not homosexuality or intersexuality.

                Matthew 19:1-12. When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

                3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

                4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

                7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

                8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

                10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

                11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

              • “Read…” Don’t be silly. That would mean the Marano jew would be exposed as a false prophet.

                I’m hanging out for his explanation of how raping babies is normal like so many jew “psychologists” are doing as they quietly work on corrupting the stupid goyim.

            • That is referring to life in Heaven, not in this lifetime.

              We were created male or female, the difference matters right now, in this life.

              • Thought I was replying up above to a comment about a Bible reference to there be no male or female….but my post didn’t follow so to make more sense of it….

                That Bible reference was referring to eternal life in heaven, not this lifetime.

                We were created male or female, there is a difference, it does matter right now in this lifetime.

          • God said that there was man and woman . However in reality there are a range of states in between. These are Intersex conditions where people are neither one or the other. Intersex conditions PROVE that the bible was wrong, even on purely physical terms. This is nothing to do with choice or lifestyle, but pure physical fact and if there are shades of gray even in physical terms, who is to say that there are not also shades of gray in terms of both sexual ID (Trans) and also preference (Lesbian and Gay) and if you choose to look it up as he suggests, read up, you will have to update your views. Sorry. The bible was based on what was known at the time. Now we know better. Also, the bible said that you could take slaves, marry your slaves, your prisoners of war, your rape v ictim etc etc and that many things were abominations which you should be stoned to death for. Are you advocating taking slaves? Marrying rape victims? Stoning people for eating shell fish? If you have managed to move on from such practices, may I suggest that you also move on on this front too.

            • “Also, the bible said that you could take slaves, marry your slaves, your prisoners of war, your rape v ictim etc etc and that many things were abominations which you should be stoned to death for. Are you advocating taking slaves? Marrying rape victims? Stoning people for eating shell fish?”

              Well based on what you have presented here so far, I think the question that would be fair to ask would be, are you advocating taking those bible quotations out of context? because so far that seems to be all that you are doing.

              Literally everything you’ve brought up has already been addressed and shown to be completely false.

              The bible does not in any way condone anything that you’ve described, and if you literally believe that it does, then you either seem to be completely uninformed of OT culture or you are purposefully deceiving people into believing that that is what the bible advocates. But whatever the case maybe, I can assure you that your information is completely incorrect and needs to be corrected.

              • I think that very tired Christian needs to take a very, very long nap!!!! He has become lazy in his thinking, sounds like he tries to be the ultimate devils advocate.

                I don’t agree with most of what he said, other than there are “some” Bible thumping Christians that focus on the sinner and not the sin, thinking that their own worth is more valuable in God’s eyes because they don’t sin in that way….but his thinking that some Christians have homosexuality confused with that in biblical times, I think he’s being deceived….his weariness is allowing himself to be duped, and causing the enemy to be using him unwittingly….because it seems he relies on “his” bending of God’s Word to rule over his thoughts and actions…he sounds arrogant and puffed up with prideful self righteousness.

            • Actually no. Biologically you are either male or female down to your very DNA. Just because you are born with both genitalia doesn’t make you an in between hybrid. It’s the physical result of a fallen world due to sin. At your chromosomal level you are either male or female.

              • Again, it is not that simple in all cases. 1 in 1000 births are babies born with Klinefelter syndrome, meaning their chromosomes are XXY. There are people born completely physically one sex, but later in life find out they have the opposite sex chromosomes.

                I believe that God created Man and Woman (Adam & Eve), and then through the generations and generations that have followed, mutations have occurred causing these issues. Hormones introduced through plastics, etc…there are so many things that have altered our bodies. These people (myself included) cannot help who we are, we are born with the body we have and we make the best of it. Male, female, intersex, transgender…we are ALL God’s children and redeemable through Jesus Christ. You CAN be intersex or LGBTQ and a born-again Christian.

                “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” ~ John 3:16

                • You need to read 1 Cor6:9&10, 1 Tim 1 : 8-11, Jude 1:7. These scriptures make it clear what type of people can not be part of God’s kingdom. Christians are to turn their back on what they used to be, repent of their sin and turn around. This means you leave your old lifestyle.

                  • “Christians are to turn their back on what they used to be, repent of their sin and turn around. This means you leave your old lifestyle.” Please explain to me how being genetically inbetween eg as in Kleinfelter Syndrome, is a sin? I repeat, this is nothing to do with lifestyle, choice or sin. Try googling Kleinfelter Syndrome, or about the Guevedoces, who appear and are raised as female, only to grow a penis at puberty, or indeed Bilateral Gynanromorphs – animals that are literally split down the middle – half male and half female. One article by the BBC has a lovely picture of a Lobster that is lobster pink on one side and black on the other. Is it sinning? Confused? PHYSICAL differences. I repeat, sadly for you, you need to get your head round the fact that the bible was wrong, based as it was on limited information.

                    • Or animals that are complete hermaphrodites (sea hares only mate in orgies where they have reproductive sex with 2 partners at once to lay thousands of egg cases).

              • Biologically you are not either male or female down to your very dna. Did you know that there are people who appear to be male but are immune to the male hormone testosterone? Their brains map as female while their genitals appear to be male. Because they are immune to testosterone they will never react as male but only as female and no, there is no ‘cure’ for such a thing. The only humane thing to do for them is to allow them to self identify with what their brains are. Have you also heard of chimerism? I could go on as there are lots of different types out there. All it requires is some reading.

                • Read scholarly articles? Why academia is the Devil’s playground! Next thing ya know they’ll be watching PBS and driving Priuses! Can’t have that.

              • Oh for the love of God… at the chromosomal level you are either doubled up and varied in one TYPE of genes (XX) or you have 2 varied grouping which express various alleles and thereby produce different proteins (XY) or you have 1 set (XO) or you have multiple sets (XYY & XXY), all of which actually are not directly responsible for hetero or homosexuality, or transgender or bisexuality in the slightest. GET AN EDUCATION IN SCIENCE and stop spewing your Fundamentalist garbage for the rest of us, normal, levelheaded, tolerant Christians who follow compassion and conscience as it was bestowed upon us by God.

                • I do believe the Lord said to not take his name in vain, which you did in your opening statement. I just wantef to point that out because it makes the rest of your response lose credibility with you portraying yourself as Christian.

                  • Ad hominem attack. He’s not a “real Christian” so he has no credibility. Your beliefs don’t alter scientific fact no matter how firmly you stick your fingers in your ears.

              • Actually wrong. It’s the addition of either the x or the y chromosome I get them mixed up that determines gender. You do start as something in between actually. And actually some cultures consider hermaphrodites closer to divinity. Because they physically have both genders and represent both. Granted that’s other cultures but someone mentioned tolerance somewhere so i probably wrongly thought it was safe to mention that.

              • “It’s the physical result of a fallen world due to sin.” You just made that up. Who in heck do you think you’re fooling?

            • it proves that at the time and culture that the bible was written in did not have a full understanding, then again nor do we, we would do well, to stop working out what other people should do and start with ourselves and decide if we really will treat others as we want to be treated.

          • The bible did say that God created male & female BUT he also created us perfect. We all know that we now are born far from perfection . We are born with birth defects. Also, the scripture does not say that we have to be born with the genitalia if male or female & stay that way. Just as with any other imperfection that we are born with, extra fingers or toes, blindness, deafness, conjoined twins, etc , we have the right & ability to medically &/or sugically treat & correct the defects. What about children born w/UNdeveloped genitalia?! They don’t have “sex organs” of either male or female as well as babies born w/both sets of “sex organs” what about them?! You apparently do not realize that what determines our gender is not the “sex organs”/genitalia that we are born with. There are several factors that determin our gender & usually those factors line up & the genitalia will follow & form correctly. Sadly, that doesn’t always happen. So a persin can be born w/the genitalia that does not match their chromosomes & other factors that define our gender. That is how they figure out if a child born w/undeveloped or both gender genitalia. Many specialists do many tests on those poor babies to find out if they are male or female. The problem w/transgenders is that because they have formed genitalia, it is assumed that all the factors lined up but it isn’t discovered till the child starts to grow & the other indicators of our gender influence the body’s growth into the gender opposite if what the birth genitalia was. It is an extremely complex medical issue but even people with no medical training can understand the basics if they want to. There are people that innocently buy into misinformation & deliberate lies, there are the willfully ignorant, that either don’t want to learn the truth or won’t believe it even when they have learned the truth w/facts to back it up because they only want to believe things that back up the opinions that they already have. There are the evil people that use the bible, Jesus, & their so called Christianity to justify their hate & views & they spread those lies & misinformation in order to further their agenda. They twist, read things into & put words into the scriptures to further their agenda. I believe that they are the false prophets that we are warned about in the bible. If you don’t believe me, reread the scriptures for yourself & also do research into chromosomes, genetics, endocrinology, etc. My grandfather was a minister & an elder & we grew up with bible teachings. I’m curious when Christians stopped living as close to the scriptures as possible, living by example to picking & choosing what scriptures to follow & what sins are OK for them all the while, dictating to other how to live & condemning them for their perception of sin by others?. When did Christians stop being righteous & become so self righteous?, when did we stop showing love to all of God’s children & decide to hate on groups of God’s children? My grandpa always told me that God knows what is in our heart!! I believe that when it is time for God to judge me, he will look into my heart & everyone else’s. I hope mine is worthy.

            • As a (senior) retired registered nurse, I’ve seen a few bodies with missing parts and orifices, plus some parts not in the right places. So what should we do? Condemn the less than perfect body to Hell? I think not.

            • Intersex conditions prove that the bible was wrong, things are not so clear cut as plain old man and woman and the insides and outsides do not always match, which is the same with intersex. Building on your point, it annoys me greatly that it is said that you should not interfere with what God gave you in the case of Trans, when doctors have been happy to interfere with what God gave intersex people, operating on innocent babies, without their consent to make them fit in with what WE think they should be. Intervening surgically is either right or wrong, but where society has deemed it fit to mess with these babies, oftern getting it terribly wrong, when the child hits puberty, it is deemed wrong for people to decide for themselves to align insides and outsides!!!

          • YO

            Very inaccurate. Jesus NEVER said God created US male and female, but that God’s human first couple were created M & F. If all of us were still as sinless and perfect as originally created, there would have been no need for, well, Jesus. You are demonstrating the precise need for what John just wrote–you truly are.

          • He’s not saying that nitwit. He is saying that if you don’t care as much about people in genuine physical pain, such as the homeless, the children who need love and homes, people who are killing themselves because they think God doesn’t love them because people preach it as you do about who is in what bathroom or who sleeps in whose bed, then you’re the problem. The bible says love your neighbor, not condemn them to hell. That’s gods job. But stop pretending you don’t understand.

            And for the up above about what about tolerating intolerant Christians, stop that nonsense. That’s a lame argument. No one is saying you have to accept homosexuality. Just stop preaching hate to them.

            • Thus thread is going in so many directions, also very disrespectful to call someone a nit wit. Who is preaching to hate homosexuality? People seem to delight in adding fuel to an already contoversial post? Why can’t you make your statements without putting others down? I disagreed with Johns & was harsh in my words which I regret. I see exactly what he is talking about by the posts I am reading now.

              • I wish John P could make a better format for comments/posts. This format is futile, It adds to the disarray, and confusion.

                JP… are you listening?

          • Dear “Yo” commenter.
            You say the bible says that God created us Male and Female and that is SOMEWHAT something the bible says. Or at least it can be interpreted as saying. I’ll give you that.
            HOWEVER…
            It is a scientific fact that some humans are born with both male and female body parts. That is not liberal talk. That is a 100% legitimate fact. There are even ancient sculptures in museum that prove that this has been a human “anomaly” for thousands of years. The Louvre museum in Paris has at least one that I know of. It is called “HEMAPHRODITE ENDORMI” and its design dates back to the 2nd century AD… The bible would be twice as long and hard to follow if it listed every single possibility. Hemaphrodites are not a liberal invention. They are a historical and scientific FACT. The author here is very much referring to uneducated fools like you in this piece… (Who use their very shallow knowledge of the cultures and the people showcased in the bible to assert themselves in a way that is simply incomplete and uneducated.) There are 10 clear and concise commandments that many Christians seem to ignore nowadays while focusing off topic modern age controversy. Hemaphrodites were around when Jesus walked this earth. If he had wanted us to hate them he would have told us to… But then again… Jesus never said to hate anybody. Not even our enemies. Every time you dismiss a human for being different you push them further away from Salvation.

          • Yo, you may want to consider that God also created homosexuals as well.

            Unless you care to explain how homosexuality can be a choice when its been documented in 2000 species of animal.

            Then there is the little fact that the Bible was written by humans and as such isn’t the all inclusive voice of God.

            • Nevermind, already stated above. Didn’t realize the posts directly below the comment were replies to that specific comment.

          • ” he would know that jesus stated that God created us male and female instead of claiming that Jesus said nothing about it.” Obviously you know the Bible better than me, because the only area I know that phrase exists is in Genesis, which was written, depending who you ask, 1000-15000 years before Jesus learned how to talk.

            When asked about what the important parts of Jewish Law were, Jesus said something to the effect of, “none of it, just love each other”. At least, that’s my take on it.

            For that matter, I seem to recall reading that Jesus broke bread with folks of different beliefs and actions, instead of saying they’d all go to Hell. I have recollection that his parables were about being fair and generous and helpful and forgiving and all that hippy stuff, instead of following the minutiae of the law to the letter. He didn’t cheer folks on for stoning a person to death as law required, he suggested being nice and forgiving, and that treating each other well went above the details of the laws.

          • Actually Jesus never made a male/female statement. Atvleast nothing was recorded in the Bible about it. Yeah that statement is in Genesis, in the irst book o the Old Testament.. But, ummm, Jesus comes on the scene in the New Testament

          • “Yo” Please know the Bible you so want to protect Galatians 3:28 says – There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

          • I think you’ve misunderstood this and are going a bit far saying God made all of us male and female, it’s usually a much smaller percentage of the population than that. I can see now why this issue might have made you feel threatened, you be free to be one or the other if that’s how God has made you. 😉

          • He also created us in his image as well……tell that to the down syndrome child or the child born with no arms or legs. How does that fit? Hmmmm?

          • Hmmm, God created the first transgender woman in Eve. He took part of a male and created a female from that male part. Just a little something to think about! Scientific studies have proven that a transgender person has the brain that mostly resembles the gender that they identify with.

            Also, I read time and time again people praising God for giving Dr’s and surgeons the skills they have in saving someone’s life. So by the same token God has given researchers the power of knowledge to find cures for diseases. So are you denying that God gave researchers the ability to find out why someone is transgender or gay? You can’t have it both ways. God doesn’t make mistakes, does he? Think about it.

          • You need to re-read his article. I don’t think he was denying that Jesus said nothing about “it”.

            This is a direct quote, ” I’m tired of followers of Jesus who don’t seem interested in cracking open a book to see what we’ve learned about the brain and the body in 2,000 years, or to realize that gender identity and sexual orientation don’t equal the word “homosexuality” in the Bible.”

            Different than what you are claiming he said.

          • Good Lord — read your bible — just eight verses later, Jesus also says: “For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth .. . .”

            To paraphrase you: we must also not deny the word of God just because WE hate what it says.

          • “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:28
            “For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.” Matthew 19:12

          • Assuming your biblical literalism approach, which version of the scriptures are you claiming as authoritative on this matter? The one you have on your bookshelf, by the bedside, and/or take to church every Sunday? Have you actually read the original manuscripts, unaltered by scribes, editors, and various publishers over these thousands of years? And if you have seen those original documents (as if they all currently exist!), do you have a full capacity to understand the original language they were written in, with the knowledge of how the language was different then from how it is used now? No? You mean you’ve just accepted the versions of the scriptures that have found their way to your fancy leather-bound Bible you bought from the local Christian bookstore, and that’s enough for you to sit in judgment of others now?

            The messages that seem to me to come through loud and clear from any Bible I read, particularly in the Gospels, is that God is Love, and Jesus’s harshest rebukes are toward those who want to stand in judgment of others based on whatever religiously superior tenants they use to condem others.

            Since Christianity was founded after Jesus’s death, the Church has been faithfully involved in trying to prop itself up as a societal institution through judgment, shame, wars, and politics. I’m convinced it would make Jesus weep today to see what so many of his followers do in the name of God. And it’s why I left the Church, even after getting a Master of Divinity degree from a large Christian seminary. The hypocrisy is too much to handle.

          • If “God created us male and female” then how do you explain hermaphrodites and people with xxy or xyy chromosomes?

          • God also created us without sin and put us in a perfect world and look what happened to that?
            We live in a fallen, imperfect world and still we are loved with all our imperfections.

          • The “word of God”? Please. God did not write the bible, people did, which is why you see in Exodus, the writer saying that someone who beats his slave to death should not be punished, because that slave was his property. If you believe “God” said that, then you don’t worship a God worthy of worship.

            Also, you could read this little scripture and say. Hmm…
            Galations 3:28
            There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

          • “Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. ” (KJ) Adam — mankind. Not separate and equal, just equal. Jesus did not teach on ANY male/female roles. He healed and performed miracles for both men and women, and taught both men and women. It didn’t matter what their religious credentials were, or their social standing, or their lifestyle. He loved people and interacted with them in a very welcoming way, men and women alike. Jesus said he did not come to judge, but came to seek and to save the lost. If he, who is without sin, does not judge other, than who are we to stand by and tell someone else they’re doing the Christian walk wrong? Only God knows what’s in another heart, and it’s none of our business.

          • So? We were created Male and Female ! And let’s actually get back to the recorded utterances of Jesus and Jehovah in the Judaic teachings …. Very little about most things …. Most of the Judaic Old Testament laws were the work of man and most of the New Testament hypocrisy comes from Paul … Another man who never met Christ and was first and foremost a practicing Jew under Judaic law while Jehova really personally only gave the 10 commandments … Seems to me that most of the Christian teachings over the last 2000 years are the work of men who never met Christ and happily incorporate their own bigotry into Christian values.
            Christian teaching should be based firmly on the actual words of Christ and they seem to be about loving one another!

          • I was amazed at how fast those opposed to homosexuality switched to attack transgender persons after same-sex marriage was legalized during mid-2015.

            I feel that the core question is what defines who is a male and who is a female. Some say that the only criterion is a newborn’s sexual organs. Others say that it is whether the person’s sex chromosomes contain a Y chromosome. (Males do; females don’t) Still others are referring to two recently discovered structures in the human brain that come in two forms: the male form is larger and has a greater neuron density than the female form. These structures appear to devine a person’s gender identity. In transgender persons who were identified as male at birth, and who now identify as female, these structures have the female form. When they say that they have a female brain in a man’s body they are literally true.

          • So when Christ was answering a question about divorce, clearly, He was talking about homosexuals in His response.

      • Karen, quite honestly I’m amazed by the patience and compassion of my genuinely Christian friends towards those they feel have gone astray from the message. There is love of them. But love without correction results in troubled children.

        • I really don’t agree with his position but I am not tired and weary…. I am just focusing on loving those in my life whether they agree with me or not

          • I just find it boggling that you would think his opinion is bigoted. I can’t even call myself Catholic anymore after the shameful things I’ve heard and seen in complete opposition to what we were taught about God.
            And finding out about the kind of man our school priest was furthered that shame. (Even so let him rest in peace, though by Biblical teachings he would be in hell.. not for what he did to boys apparently but for taking his own life).

          • Those of us who are weary are those who are actively stepping up to study, understand and help stop those who would cruelly condemn, marginalize, criminalize and otherwise harm those most vulnerable children of God. If you’re not weary, you’re not doing enough to stop the hate, because the hate is spreading and gaining power.

        • “love without correction results in troubled children”

          seems to me that is exactly why John wrote this post.

        • and to this Christian, Mary, the troubled children are the fire and brimstone evangelical Christians who spread fear and hate in God’s name.

          They are the ones that need correcting.

        • I have never heard a Christian speak hate toward any LGBT person. I’ve seen respect, compassion, gentleness, & care. [These are Christians that believe the bible teaches against same-genital relations (because of dire consequences : physically, mentally, socially & spiritually) .

          • Pau,l

            the days of dire consequences are coming to a close now that LGBTQ people are encouraged to have healthy relationships and participate equally in society rather than be pushed to the fringes of as outcasts. Something which the church should recognize as healthy for their LGBTQ children rather than have them all torn up inside about it.

          • Really.

            I’ve been seeing a lot of Christians “lovingly” calling gay people pedophiles, perverts, and fags. In response for this very blog post, I’ve seen a Christian lie about what Christ said to “prove” that Christ spoke against homosexuality.

            Perhaps they’ve confused love for hate. It seems epidemic among some.

          • Be very careful with the “No True Scotsman” argument. Sure I’ve never heard any of that garbage from the Christians I know but a quick look at the news will show many of those who have no qualms about preaching hate. Waaaay to many of them.

      • It’s called ‘tough love.’ If you’re not going to pay any attention to what Jesus actually said and did and how he acted in the world and make up your own hateful, exclusionary rules, you should expect to be called out.

        • Right, – because you know what Jesus actually said and did. Except… you don’t. And no, the Bible is not at all reliable source of what Jesus said, which you would know if you would care to actually educate yourself, but – oh damn it hurts- then facts and actual thinking would get in the way of just blindly repeating sermons which in the end is just so much more convenient.

        • Once more, I am curious… what exactly is ‘tough love?’ How can it be love, which is gentle, and also tough? Or is it more like this — know that I love you, but also know that I’m going to beat your butt because I love you? When a partner hits and abuses the other partner, is s/he demonstrating ‘tough love?’

          • The fundies would say that an alcoholic wife is a terrible sinner. So, if her Christian husband tells her to quit drinking—and beats the snot out of “the bitch” to emphasize the point—then he is exhibiting TOUGH LOVE, and Jesus has his stamp of approval on each fist wallop. This is the fundie view of so-called “tough love.” I have seen it expressed in various ways in the books in fundie Christian bookstores, but it really all boils down to what I just said. Forget that alcoholism is a disease in the brain and that quitting is no easy matter—and you cannot beat someone into quitting. It never works, and that is what the alcoholism healthcare professionals will tell you straight to your face.

            So, my ending point is this. Although they might decry it with their lips for public show, Christian fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals are in the roots of their souls—BARBARIANS. They love violence, mercilessness, and inflicting injury and death on those they regard as their enemies or the enemies of God, which is nearly every human on Earth except for themselves.

            The reason the Southern States are all red for Donald Trump is because they are filled to the brim with fundies. Regardless of the Bible, the culture of the American South has always been a human culture that emphasizes the importance and value of violence in solving problems. Southern people, and I should know because I am a Southern person born and raised, never saw a war they did not like or support. They might claim it is patriotism, but that is NOT what it is. Southern culture is a culture of bludgeoning things and killing things—often purely for fun and sport. I see it in myself and in the cultural milieu that I grew up with in small town Tennessee. I never learned any of it from the Bible. I learned if from the older Christian and nonChristian folks on front porches in late summer afternoons as a child.

            How do I see that Southern culture in me—that part of me that Jesus needs to fight off? If I were President and Jesus was not in me, there is an excellent possibility (based on my southern cultural training) that I would wipe out every living thing between the DMZ and the North Korean border with China in a massive nuclear attack. That is what my southern culture taught me about how to solve problems like Kim Jong Un. Of course, I think the thing the North Korean fat boy does not understand is that Donald Trump (backed by all those southern red state fundies) is a real risk to do just that sometime next year. If I were Kim Jong Un and Donald Trump is elected President in November, I would sue for total peace and reunification with South Korea the day after the election. The alternative for North Korea is too horrifying to contemplate—and it will come.

          • “Tough love” is a strategy of putting in place fair boundaries, which thereby create a natural consequence to the offending person when they are crossed. It is not an exclusively religious concept.

      • Sweetheart, that went right over your head, didn’t it? WOW, it couldn’t have been more simple & straightforward.

      • Exactly. And Jesus does address male and female sexuality. A man can marry, or be a eunuch(either by birth or self made). Those are the TWO choices.

            • Angela, did you really not understand that point? The bible is not just a book for the preacher to read from… You can read it too! That is the wonderful thing about it.

              Christina’s point is that Jesus was well beyond the expected age for a man of his age and culture to marry and he didn’t. He died “young” by todays standards but back then 33 was not that young. A 33 year old mas was considered middle aged and expected to have a family.

              The big picture of her “point” is that the bible is not an “all or nothing” document. It is the essence of the Lord’s teachings that should prevail.

      • His purpose with his writings is directed to those for whom this applies to. It is absurd to view it otherwise.

      • They love you, just not your bigotry, scientific illiteracy, and your determination to drag us back to the dark ages. The love you, just not what you do. Don’t you feel better?

      • Its funny, I don’t see it that way. He just says that he is tired. I am another Christian that is tired of these so called Christians & who I believe are the false prophets the bible earned us about. If I were so strong in my faith & didn’t know anything about the bible, I would be ashamed to be a Christian & not want anything to do w/them. I think that is what Satan wants. To stumble Christians & turn others away from God. It seems that Satan is getting the job done too. These hateful self proclaimed Christians are not behaving Christ like. I was taught to spend the word but &to live by example

        • Rocks Mommy! YOU ARE AMAZING!
          I completely agree. I am a Christian and the way some other “Christians” behave honestly makes me think they are doing the Devils work for him.

      • He didn’t say he didn’t love them he said he was tired of hearing them and I think it was a bit tongue-in-cheek sarcastic humor. Don’t take it personally.

      • So you are angry at him for being disgusted with the haters in the church? Yes indeed let’s take their views as just another Christian option. Want to call yourself a Christian and be a bigoted moron at the same time? I guess that’s ok with you.

      • Karen, Christian’s aren’t the ones refused jobs, promotions or fired for being a Christian. They are not harassed, threatened or falsely accused by the police. They are not the ones assaulted or murdered. They are not refused serice or have their rights voted on.

          • I’m going to guess that Anonymous has bein in America, where Christian presidential candidates actively sought the endorsement of a preacher calling for mass-execution of gays, and people rallied behind Kim Davis despite her violating her oath of office (and gleefully pocketing her salary for a job she refused to do), and condemning transgender people wanting to take a piss in peace while exalting an actual pedophile.

            Not being able to force your beliefs on others is in no way the same as being persecuted yourself.

      • Did we just read the same thing, Karen? He isn’t making it up. He gives an accurate description of a large proportion of the Christian community. He didn’t do it in “attack mode” either.

      • So you want him to give these other Christians a blank check to judge others, in the name of not judging them? Jesus called out hypocrisy where he saw it. And John is doing the same, whether you agree with his stance, or not.

      • Karen. Where is your love for people like John Pavlovitz? Christian fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals are the most mean-spirited, hateful, and bigoted people I have ever known—worse even than the most rabid American racists between 1865 and 1968. In fact, many of those rabid racists were Christian fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals—and they still are. The primary trouble you people have—and I do mean YOU PEOPLE—is that you are so busy picking around in other peoples sins and lives that you have no time to look in a mirror and see your own sins and failings in life.

        I have a mirror for you Karen. It is over at my blog. Go take a look at “YOUR KIND” in my mirror. Each one of the 69 posts there is one of YOUR CHILDREN that I and others have observed while watching you fundies operate over the past 25 years. Go look—and if you still have a heart inside you—which I seriously doubt—you might weep for yourself:

        https://faith17983.wordpress.com/

      • I applaud Mr. Pavlovitz’s sense of justice, but I think what’s needed here is a reality check….can we somehow evolve past saints and sinners? If we all had the courage to live our lives as homo sapiens instead of brainwashed religo-bots there would be no need to be so judgmental or opinionated. For the most part all religious teachings are geography related; a Muslim or Buddhist would scoff at these Christian statements. If you need to pray, you have already missed the point. Stop wasting precious time. Faith is NOT a virtue….unless you believe turning off your brain at will is a virtue. You shouldn’t need a centuries-old manuscript to tell right from wrong. Pull yourselves together and have the fortitude to let the fairytales go….it’s the only hope we have to unite the world.

      • He’s bigoted against hateful bigots, you think that’s the biggest problem here? And if anything, the author is kind and rational, which is more than I would be.

      • John Pavlovitz is about the LEAST bigoted human being I know. I am going to take a leap here Karen. You are a white, middle-aged, middle class, Christian?? Even if I’m not correct (but I suspect I am). You may be suffering from a severe case of privilege. There is a fantastic saying making the rounds: “When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression”. No, John is not the bigot, and he owes no one an apology. There is a large ground swell of Christ followers who are FINALLY trying to level the playing field for everybody. I am a Christian, and John doesn’t hate me or YOU. What he is tired of (as are many of us who identify as Christ followers) is the same old, tired BS being touted as God’s love, when it is nothing but thinly veiled hate. You completely missed the point, as is evident by your comment. You dear have no idea what LGBTQ folks have had to survive at the hands of these “loving Christians”. Old school Christians are not the victims, so please, don’t play the victim. We are not disagreeing with a “stance”, we are sick and tired of the nonsense that has passed as Christianity for FAR too long. If you don’t get it, you just don’t get it. Maybe someday.

      • Karen – why is it that you call yourself a Christian, when his teachings and example are offensive to you?

        This is not an attack – this a very serious question. How do you proclaim Christ, and still practice bigotry?

        How does that even work?

      • Honestly I’m tired of responses like yours. I’m tired of the name calling, the insults, the arrogance, the self-righteousness thrown back and forth between the right and left. The battle has worn me out. I’m sick of it, beyond tired. The life, love, joy is drained away for me. Shouldn’t have read the article, shouldn’t have responded but oh dear God I am so tired of this.

      • I don’t agree. They referring to those that act in that manor. So if you fit in that profile than they are speaking about you. If you don’t , than they are not referring to you. Period.

      • And it seams that his view stems from information gained from mainstream media (which is leftist) and not from actual data. He sees these Christians (those who sincerely held beliefs are contrary to his) as harmful to society…

        None of what he says his actually based in Reality. Sure there are people (Christian or otherwise) who show anger and hatred for others (I’d argue that we all do to varying degrees), but, broadly speaking, this is not true regrading LGBT.

        I’m actually tired of these people who are tired of these presumed (and myabe even projected) ideas about Christians who believe there’s an Objective standard of morality and Objective truths about Reality (the nature of things and people).

      • And it seams that his view stems from information gained from mainstream media (which is leftist) and not from actual data. He sees these Christians (those who sincerely held beliefs are contrary to his) as harmful to society…

        None of what he says his actually based in Reality. Sure there are people (Christian or otherwise) who show anger and hatred for others (I’d argue that we all do to varying degrees), but, broadly speaking, this is not true regrading LGBT.

        I’m actually tired of these people who are tired of these presumed (and myabe even projected) ideas about Christians who believe there’s an Objective standard of morality and Objective truths about Reality (the nature of things and people).

        • Given Christian presidential candidates campaigned on which crimes against humanity they want to commit, I’m going to go ahead and disagree with your pretense that none of this is real.

        • No need to go to mainstream media. If you simply go to a Facebook site about marriage being between a man and a woman, about people refusing to bake cakes for gay couple or eg about Trans use of bathrooms you can see such views out in force, as on here where someone dares to question this kind of stance. I struggle to comprehend the hatred coming from people who claim to be Christian, who are meant to love and who are meant to leave judgement to god.

      • Just my opinion, but what I got out of it is to truly use Christian values… Caring, helping, and “Love thy neighbors as thyself”????

      • But this is a simple fact of life: being gay isn’t wrong, being discriminatory is. When people learn to pull their heads out of their asses and realise we’re all human, everything will be so much better

      • I thought he just said he was tired of it, I never read any hatred or bigotry. He even said he understands their feelings and doesn’t want to offend them, but he’s tired.

      • You need to re-read the blog . What is Christian about the bigotry coming from the Christian community about people who are different (transgendered people)? The ignorance and hate is what he is talking about. I suggest you reflect on the current words and actions coming from those people he is talking to and then explain to us why Jesus would agree with that hate and judgment.

      • If everything you said was accurate and true-Christians would be a sorry lot indeed. For many years I did prison ministry. Almost without exception young people who identified themselves as homosexuals had been sexually abused around the age of two. Small children are unable to process sexuality and become fixated on what happens to them. Their sexuality is awakened long before the normal progression of sexual/hormonal/physiological changes in puberty. Here’s an interesting and little known fact: in cases where pedophiles were caught-38% were homosexuals. That’s an astounding percentage considering that homosexuals make up about 5% of the population. (The study is old-done in, I believe the 1990s? -as it’s now illegal to call homosexual behavior anything other than normal. ) Now, here’s where the rubber really hits the road: Romans 1:26-28, Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, I Corinthians 6:9-10, just to name a few. Does God love homosexuals? Absolutely! Is their behavior okay? Absolutely not! Should we love them? Absolutely! Should we give their sin a pass? No, nope, nada! What is the answer? Should we call sin good? Isaiah 5:20. Christians are left in a difficult place. We must speak truth in love. Therein lies the rub. But, we help no one, ever, when we condone sin in any form: lying, stealing, gossiping, the act of adultery, divorce, greed or homosexuality.

        • Are you saying homosexuality is caused by child abuse ? and if so what about those who were never abused?

          As well everything you listed above involves sometime of harm towards others :lying, stealing, gossiping, the act of adultery, divorce, greed

          except homosexuality how does it harm others?

        • The bronze age patriarchal writers of the Bible knew exactly nothing about sexual orientation. Nor did they know anything about left-handedness, epilepsy, or leprosy but they saw all of these thing as “of the devil.” There is no nexus between sexual orientation and morality. Yet so many “Christians” continue to view homosexuals as heterosexuals behaving badly. Your ideas about what causes homosexuality are wildly wrong. The latest evidence shows that epigenetic changes in the womb are largely responsible for sexual orientation. If your post above were accurate and legally sound Prop. 8, and DOMA would not have been repealed and marriage equality would not now be the law of the land. To continue to use the Bible as a club against LGBT persons, ignoring all of the fad-based evidence, is the very definition of bigotry.

        • Ruth I have a huge problem with your post. So, here’s what you’re saying:

          Child gets abused by a sexual predator/paedophile and as a consequence of not being able to process what’s happened develops homosexual tendencies. Boy child grows up and man falls in love with another man. You turn around and tell him, I know you were abused by a very sick person as a child and I’m so sorry for you, but, hey, that’s in the past now, what I need to tell you is that you’re actions are going to send you directly to Hell.

          Ruth, what kind of sick twisted compassion is that?

          • Sean… Ruth was just sharing about scientific studies and percentages. The reason God made such strict parameters around our sexuality, is because it is fragile… I also work with addicts and prison & homeless population. Childhood sexual abuse is rampant among them– 50+%, which is completely related to their drug abuse, alcohol addiction, mental illness, suicide attempts, & chronic health problems. They are scarred for life. And struggle greatly. It does skew their sexual/social behavior as adults, as every scientific study shows.

            God’s plan of Marriage (Male & female), intact -low conflict- home is BY FAR the best that God has for us. Obviously, this does not happen in the fallen world. BUT, it is still the best for our mental, physical, social, spiritual WELL BEING. Thank you God that You know what is best for us.

            • Hi Paul,
              It is the quality of the parenting experience and the impact of this on the child that is paramount and not the fact that it is a male/female union.

            • Paul

              Why are there so many LGBTQ people coming out of apparently stable christian homes then?

              We have already gone down this road thinking it was poor parent bonding or abuse that causes someone to turn gay but that doesn’t hold up under scrutiny anymore. Likewise many children come from dysfunctional abusive background who are not LGBT. It just doesn’t add up.

      • It says he is “tired” of these things, not that he’s beyond forgiveness on these things, but truth be told, he’s not wrong–I’m tired of the angry white christian schtick too. Folks can and should be better people who contemplate Jesus’ teachings, rather than use His name to perpetuate bigotry, fear, and hate.

      • Actually, according to 1 Corinthians chapter 5 he is supposed to do exactly what he is doing. The bible says to judge only those within your peers. In this instance, his peers are the entire church of Christianity.

        Many people misquote the judge not lest thy be judged verse because it speaks of holding each other accountable as Christians. He is reminding others to show godly love so what he does is biblical.

      • How about you stop conflating bigotry, which you are showing, with honest and necessary criticism of real problems, which you are embodying.

      • Come on, Karen, he said he was tired and apologized up front! But even weary, he’s more right than wrong . . . and is trying (wearily) to live out love for Christ’s sake. At least that what I think . . .

      • “But listen, if you’re going to tell a group of people that they’re going to Hell simply for existing, and you’re going to continually target those people through the Church and the Law and your social media accounts, don’t get angry with me when I tell you you’re being hateful and judgmental and ignorant.”

        Did everyone read this graph? John is writing from a position of fact-based evidence. The Bible literalists are not.

      • He doesn’t say he doesn’t love all people. He’s just tired of do called Christians saying they follow Christ when in reality– they aren’t! I never read anywhere that he was “hating”– just pointing out hatred & bigotry!!

      • Karen! Shame on you for twisting this! I am a minister’s daughter thus pretty expert in attitudes among MANY so-called “Christians” – who somehow, apparently, have totally missed the message and spout hatred and bigotry instead of the love and tolerance all accounts of Jesus have portrayed! Did YOU somehow miss His message too? John is one of the MOST loving, open-minded, intelligent, honest messengers of what Christianity COULD be were we all to open our minds to the REAL message of that Blessed Martyr!

      • I feel the same as you. I have to wonder if he’s an atheist pretending for this purpose oto be a Christian to get a reaction because to me very little of what he says rings true but would to an atheist. Christians want government in the bedroom? I guess he’s referring to homosexuality but that’s just weird how he worded it. I follow the teachings in the Bibke of the Apostles, Jesus & God. I never tell anyone they are going to Hell. That’s between them & God.

      • Did you actually read the article? You’re not allowed to have an opinion on Somone else’s life, unless you are willing to change everything that is wrong with yours. You’re not allowed to make others lives misirible because you believe they are doing their life wrong. Your right is to live YOUR life the way you want. If you have to live under a rock to do it than please feel free.

        Jesus hung out with prostitutes and kissed boys.

        Get over yourself.

      • Sometimes it’s necessary to express your outrage instead of your patience. Those who support the LGBTQ communities, those who believe that science needs to be embraced (without throwing out the bible) have been loving and supportive and quiet for too long. As a result, those narrow-minded, supposed Christians have been screaming at the top of their lungs and saying VERY un-Christian things. Believe it or not, it’s possible to love them as people and speak out against their behaviors.

      • he’s showing them love — by telling them, nicely, that they’re soiling themselves. like we do children at toilet training time.

      • But he is correct. A lot of Christians seem to pick and choose what they want to talk about. Not many want to talk about Jesus’s message about loving all.
        They just want to talk about what is wrong with a person and not what there is inside a person. So, you don’t like who a person sleeps with, is it really your business? So, you don’t perverts to use the opposite genders restrooms, I do to. Before you condemn someone for being transgendered, educate yourself as to what being transgendered really is all about. Most of them just want to go in, do their thing and get out. You probably use the same restroom as at least one transgendered person and you don’t even know about.

        Grow up and educate yourself about things before you go condemning people just because you don’t agree with them.

      • Aww, poor Karen. He isn’t catering to your bigotry. Jesus wouldn’t either, sweetie. “Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!”

      • He is mirroring how he has been treated by them and saying he is tired of it. I also suspect that you being “troubled” means that you have missed the point entirely.

      • Where is HIS love of THEM? Where is YOUR love for him and others who disagree with you? He says nothing about not loving others. He said he is tired of your whining about folks ignoring just how special you are compared to everybody else on earth and even everybody else in the Christian faith. I am also tired of you mewling whining folks who want be the most specialist Christians in the world and want to complain that everybody else is oppressing little old you because they do not grovel before your Pharisaical ways. I love you in Christ and want you to grow up and become responsible adults who give a damn about someone other than you and yours.

      • He just wants you to get a clue instead of being a mindless churh clone spouting off things that have been proven to be incorrect. By the way he dosnt say he hates you he said he is tired of the missrepresentation propagated by the right wing church tell me how do you feel about slaves or eating pork or shellfsh. Sometimes we have to change this is one of thoes times.

      • I am going to assume you are being ironic an clever. Otherwise, I am going to stick something sharp in my eye.

        In. My. Eye.

      • Karen, I hate to be the one to break it to you (no I’m not) but you are a stupid cunt. And I don’t throw that word around lightly. Many people associate it with a particular part of the female anatomy, but this is erroneous. What it really means is you are an horrible, short-sighted, stupid, ignorant arse-wipe. You are so blinded by ignorant hate that you will never be able to know what it is like to be an empathetic, productive and progressive member of the human race. You are beyond salvation, and if there were a god, a jesus, a mary-mother-of-god… they would not spit or piss on you if you were on fire, because there is nothing in you worth saving. you are wretched and hateful, and we all hope you die miserably. Cunt.

      • I am going to assume you are being ironic. The alternative is too awful to imagine.
        Reminds me of a discussion I had this week where. A fellow accused me of being intolerant because I i refused to allow him to say it was ok to say that trangender was the same as cross dresser and homosexual.

      • As an orthodox Jew, I take offense at this article, as well, because it insults my own religious beliefs, which are Old Testament based. G-d makes himself very clear that homosexuality is WRONG. No amount of trying to excuse the acts for any reason will change G-d’s heart on this matter. And to suggest that people who follow G-d’s commandments are bigots, or evil, or backwards, is hateful AND might I add – anti-semitic. Because it strikes directly at the Old Testament, which is Jewish law.

        • D. Mendel

          I appreciate your response. Do you think Jesus came then to enlighten his people under the Jewish faith and move them forward help them grow up spiritually and mature and join humanity as one family under God ? Would this make sense that Jesus came as an advocate for mercy, justice and to teach true righteousness to help ALL people no matter their background or situation they find themselves in?

        • I guess you missed it, but this article was about CHRISTIANS, not Jew or the Jewish Faith. Now, the cute little story book that all religions use are nothing more than stories to help guide the people of antiquity, so that families would grow and the human race would not go extinct. Since no one has honestly heard from and GOD in over a millennia, maybe it is time to put the fairy tales to rest and grow up. Ever consider that with today’s population, that maybe this is God’s way of trying to control the population, by having more Homosexuals? BTW, if only GOD can create, then homosexuality was created by GOD, so I highly doubt you are going to tell me HE was wrong? For someone belonging to a group that has been treated very badly for millennia, it is sad to see that you don’t mind hating just like any other groups. Since you agree with putting people to death for homosexuality and possibly other offenses, maybe Hitler would have spared you, since you might have been willing to gas the gays, sinners, and others that didn’t meet his standards…I feel sorry for you.

      • Karen,

        A former pastor of mine had a quote that I loved

        “I’m only closed-minded about closed-minded people.”

        I understand that we’re supposed to love everyone (even the closed-minded people) but on the other hand this NEEDS to be said — and needs to be HEARD but the oppressed community (in this case those teens that are literally killing themselves because they are rejected IN THE NAME OF JESUS).

      • I think dear,that you are his target audience. You may choose to cherry pick any portions of a book that has been rewritten so often it is difficult to keep track of how many times. However Jesus said that the greatest commandment is love. Not judgement ,or keeping track of others behavior. Just LOVE. Love them as they are, where they stand as children of God. Zero judgement. Becoming the embodiment of his love for us. When we work on that none of the rest matters. Have a blessed day.

      • Karen, did he condemn you to hell for not following the Bible to the letter? The answer is NO. If you are troubled it is most likely because you have done some of the the very things mentioned and feel guilt or maybe shame? He is expressing his point of view, and you have a problem with that,? Why, because it isn’t your point of view? Take a good hard long look at Christianity and you will see that most people haven’t read the Bible and those that have don’t have any idea as to how to interpret what they have read. Also, if you haven’t heard the news, the United States is not a theocracy, it is a REPUBLIC…it is also SECULAR, which means we do NOT follow religious laws…We are FREE from RELIGION or to practice what religion you choose to do so, BUT DON”T FORCE YOUR VIEWS ON OTHERS. The last part doesn’t just go for Christians, it applies to ALL religious groups. No group should be pushing their religious beliefs onto anyone. Take a good look in the mirror and see if you truly like what you have become following the selected readings of a 2000 + year old book that tells you to love, but instead the leaders of those who are suppose to be speaking for God and who are preaching, are preaching hate. Since when did God hate anyone? Even those who have sinned he loves. Which means he even loves you with all your faults and sins.

      • This article is ridiculous. I am a Christian, and do not embrace the beliefs that he is projecting on Christians. Nor do I see these values broadly embraced in my Christian community. Our parish priest, who has two gay siblings, has spoken and written about the difference in old values vs. the enlightened embrace of a more thoughtful, intelligent society. My choices… your choices… that’s between the individual and God. I am a sinner. A gay person is also a sinner. We are both sinners and it is God who will judge us both.

        This article is nothing more than hate-speech. Shame on the writer.

        • Exactly.

          And I wonder if any of them have ever considered this:

          Could it not be that some of us ARE LGBT…because nature itself needs a way to control our population numbers?
          We HAVE no natural predators, other than disease and our own fellow humans. We are over-running this planet, we are living in an unsustainable system.
          The Earth’s resources…and ability to sustain us all is being stretched to the limit and beyond.
          Would not Nature then…remove some of us from the pool of reproducing humans…as a way to place another control on our exploding numbers?
          A transgender woman such as myself…is not capable of reproducing. I can no longer reproduce.

          I so wish I could experience being a mommy…but it is not my fortune to be able to do so.

          That said, there could be a reason unfathomable to us…that we LGBT people are here.

          Or maybe it could be that we are HERE…in order to test the Christians and others: Will you REALLY love your neighbor as yourself? Even if…

          Will you?

          Even as some of you do not love me…a transgender woman…even as some of you stand in hate against me and wish my death – I love you. Truly, completely, and without reservation, I love you.
          And I am saddened for you who stand against me…because I now know what a lonely hurting and horrible place you are in. But I don’t hate you.

      • He never said he did not love Christians who disagreed with him. In fact there’s a strong implication in the piece that he does love those people.

      • I have some gay friend who were seriously injured by Christian fundamentalists. Compared to that this post isn’t very bigoted.

      • Should Jesus have not rebuked the money changers in the temple because they did not “agree” with Christ statement? Also this gentleman has stated he is tired … He did not make it personal to you or anyone else…. ” Christians “are notorious for personalizing their disagreement and targeting individuals and groups.

      • Seriously? The only thing he does is openly tell what many Christians are doing, and compare it to what Jesus comands Christians to do. Correcting a child that makes a mistake, so that child may better themselves, is not hateful and bigoted, rather it shows true love, for you want them to grow into a better person

      • Actually being tired of someone is not bigotry, everyone has a limit to their tolerance. He’s not condemning Christians that don’t share his views to hell, he’s simply stating. I’m a non violent, non hateful, non exclusive manner that he is tired of those Christian people.

      • Haha! That’s so true Karen. I don’t know many Christians like he is describing. Yes..I’ve met ones like that but percentage wise…yeah…not so much. Way to classify an entire group of people.

      • THAT is what you got out of that article?. Let me guess…….you are one of those hateful bigots he speaks of. His “stance” is scientifically proven and Biblically sound. Can YOU say the same about yours?

      • I believe It is his love of Christians that motivated this Tired Christian to write his feelings. If you are a true follower of Christ you should take the time learn about sex orientation, transgenders . Until it happens to you personally, you will not understand. As a nurse of seen parents faced with difficult decisions to make because their 2 year old boy , has. Internal female organs like a uterus and ovaries. Or a baby born with both external sex organs, a penis and vaginal. These are God’s children and only He knows why this has happened. Only He knows the big plan.

        • Yes.
          I am a transgender woman. I was also born with Klinefelter Syndrome. This means I have both the male and the female sex chromosome. My chromosomal makeup is 47XXY.
          Now…merely being born Klinefelter…does not cause one to be transgender…in fact, most Klinefelters do NOT end up as I have. I bring it up merely as an argument against the old “God does not make mistakes” argument.
          I spent twenty YEARS in a hurting place, afraid of The Sacred…because of this. Last week, I had an experience that led to a transformation of my heart and soul such as I am still processing this.
          Everyone I know back home is asking me who the hell I am…and what did I do with “their Angela?”

          My experience caused twenty YEARS of hurt, pain, sorrow, and anger to POUR out of me…and be replaced by a love such as I have never experienced, am still processing, and probably never will be able to explain. I was truly re-born last week.

          It came about when I stood and faced down Westboro Baptist Church in Columbus, Ohio…when they chose to picket our church’s General Assembly. I wore the Angel Wings of a peacekeeper – and not for the first time.
          THIS time, however…I was HEALED by those Wings. You see, the wings I was wearing that day…had been sent to us from Orlando. The last place they were used before I wore them…was to protect the funerals of the Orlando victims.
          And the knowledge of just what those wings had done (and the fact that I wrote a poem about them a week previous…not knowing then that I would be wearing the very wings I was writing about) – well…it was a honoring, moving, HUMBLING experience that literally moved me to tears.
          And I felt all the hate, anger, hurt, pain, sorrow and rage…taken from me in the moment I stood there with those Wings on.
          One person put those wings on. Another person took them off an hour later. and I now love those who stand against me with hate, because, for the first time, I truly understand them.
          And I understand the hurting place they are in. If only they could feel what I felt then…and know what I now know.

          Laura Jane Grace, the transgender leader of the band “Against Me!” writes in one of her songs “Does God bless your transsexual heart?”
          I have asked myself that question SO MANY TIMES over these twenty years. And for the first time in my LIFE…I know the answer is YES. Yes The Sacred does love and bless me, cherish, honor, and respect me. As I am…without reservation or condition.

      • I completely agree Karen. They’re being so hypocritical. Maybe they should follow the verse take the plank out of your eye before taking the splinter out of someone else’s.

      • And your being troubled rather than convicted by the Hold Spirit is what’s exhausting to to the rest of us.

      • He simply said what he is tired of and every point he made was valid. Tell me how Christian it is to hate….

      • He states that he is tried of their behavior. You can dislike someone’s behavior and still love them. By the way, he is commenting on a group that professes to follow Jesus Christ. He is pointing out that the behavior he sees in no supports that.

      • You are troubled that he doesn’t love the complaining Christians? (Just between you and me, it’s hard to love people who spew hatred in the name of Jesus, who was a very loving guy.) Why aren’t you troubled by the hateful acts of the “Christians” he describes in his blog? I would love an answer.

        • How true. And in a world where gays are thrown off of roofs in Iraq and mowed down in night clubs by Islamic Extremists, we must remember that “American Christians” are the true tormentors of LGBT people in the world.

      • I did not see a lack of love for any of them. More, what I saw was what a parent would say about a child behaving badly. Or, as Jesus did with the money lenders in the church. He chastised them but at no point did he express any lack of love for them. I can discipline my child and tell them what they did that was wrong but that does not mean I do not love them. In fact, I am showing my love by teaching right from wrong.

      • His ‘stance’ is open-minded, educated, to love and accept all . Don’t judge as if having the god-given right to do so, don’t be a bigot or hater. If you are ‘troubled’ by any of that, then perhaps you should look inwards.

      • He’s not criticizing Christians who don’t agree with him. He’s criticizing Christians who don’t agree with Christ.

      • Are you serious…. We cannot pick and choose….follow Christ example of non judgement, grace, mercy and love. Hatred and condemnation are not a part of true Christdom! ” why do you worry about the speck in your brothers eye, tend to the LOG in your own eye first!” This was a directive from Christ and those POSING as believers and leaders in the church should start heeding it! Hatred is NOT sactioned by Christ……ummm maybe this behavior is from the ANTI Christ! Buck up baby….a storm is coming.

      • Love and agreement do not always have to go together. He is pointing out all the misconceptions that the ” ” (loving, god fearing Christians have. In church they are all hail Jesus, amen, I love God. I devoted my life to living as he did and I pray in his name everyday for the sacrifices he made for me and my soul.) Then those same devote Christians get in a crowd of people and say “I believe this is wrong so you HAVE to believe me. Because Jesus said so.” Jesus ALSO said. We were given the right to choose our own path. He never said your path is wrong if you disagree with me. No wait. That’s wrong. Jesus Christ who loves you and everyone of his children has no quams about casting any non believer into a place of misery and desolation for all time because that person did what Jesus said we can do. Follow our own hearts. I’m not a Christian and well. That’s why. I personally do not have any problem going to the bathroom next to a Transgender, Gay, Lesbian, or whatever Q stands for. It’s the ((Straight, Heterosexual)) people that have been getting arrested for molesting children and women and even a few men for decades before Transgender was even a thing that scare the hell out of me.

      • He didn’t do anything to you, Karen. Totally unaware of any laws proposed or passed against you. If you’re hurt or insulted by what he wrote, then i would say the shoe must fit pretty damn well!

      • What he’s trying to explain to you is that people who think and act the ways he describes are NOT REALLY CHRISTIANS! He’s telling you (correctly, think) that they (and, apparently you) don’t understand who and what Christ was, and what Christianity is and stands for.

      • It’s unfortunate that in the pursuit of righting the wrongs of so much of what so-called Christianity has done, the writer here seems like he’s nearly as bad for being so judgmental *toward* the judgmental.

        He’s become jaded towards the jaded, intolerant of the intolerant, and yet…

        He’s pointing to a greater problem than just “being judgmental.” He’s pointing to a great disconnect—a really horrible mistake. Christianity as it was originally conceived could never allow such a problem to occur, but it stands as one of the worst and saddest of our time, and that’s the “true religion,” the “good news” and the message of love to all mankind becoming exclusivist.

        The bigotry, or whatever you want to call it that bothers so many people standing in front of Christianity on the outside looking in, isn’t primarily about selfishness or the closed-mindedness of the ones who claim to be on the inside. It’s the exclusion they feel they need to feel safe—it’s the very thing Jesus warned against in the temple when the Pharisees thought they were so set…so well-prepared to be the role-models for a lost world….

        Anyway I’ve written a bit of a novel here—dissertation—but I hope that it resonates with someone. And Karen, thank you for saying what you did. John Pavlovitz, thank you for saying what needed to be said.

        Christian love, everybody. Let’s go for more of that and stand with the oppressed, not tear them down.

      • Seriously? 1) He didn’t condemn them. 2) Show me where Jesus said to tolerate hate and bigotry. Because this isn’t a disagreement on which color to paint the house – these Christians believe in discrimination for those who disagree or who are different from them. Enough is enough. I’ll pray for their souls and ask God to show them the mercy they themselves do not show, but don’t expect me to sit idly by and allow them to discriminate against my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

      • He is not saying all Christians are like thatn nor did he say he had no love. He said he was tired of explaining it …..open your eyes and step outside you biblical coccoon. There’s a whole great big world out there to be explored And awesome people of all genders, nationalities, etc that may not believe as you do but are good people, worthy of love and respect.