Dear Jesus, You’re Fired From American Evangelical Christianity

Dear Jesus,

We regret to inform you that as of January 20th, 2017, your services are no longer required.

As will happen, changes have occurred in recent months that have now rendered many of your past duties obsolete:

 

  • Empathy is no longer deemed necessary, and so loving your neighbor as yourself is a rather wasteful use of current resources and manpower.
  • Turning the other cheek has proven not to be measurably profitable, and we have eliminated it from our Strategic Plan for the coming four years.
  • We have drastically reduced funding on your earlier initiatives of Compassion, Diversity, and Equality, and will instead be focusing on the more lucrative Fear, Exclusion, and Discrimination programs, which polls indicate our dwindling base prefers.
  • We’ve also made large cuts to the Loving The Least initiative you originally spearheaded, and allocated these funds to our popular Pull Yourself Up By Your Own Bootstrap campaign.
  • Also, given your Middle Eastern upbringing we feel the need to distance ourselves from your image, as our predominately white core audience is uncomfortable with the problematic associations it conveys in this current climate.

As you know, the American people have been choosing our services less and less in recent years, and we need to maximize the smaller market share we now occupy in both the Bible and Rust Belts. President-Elect Trump gives us the best opportunity to do this, and as his vision and yours are so incompatible, we feel it is best to sever ties and retrofit our programs to better align as to be on message with him.

As a result of the these and other factors, we are moving in another direction and are hereby eliminating your position, effective on the 20th.

We will still continue with some of the projects you spearheaded, namely the sunday morning worship services which are still profitable for us, though instead of prominently featuring God So Loved the World, these will now be used to showcase our Make America Great Again campaign which is testing well with our target audience. 

We will still prominently display the Cross of course, as this is continues to be a powerful and lucrative branding tool with our customers, especially combined with the American Flag and the TRUMP name. We’ll also continue to lobby for your name to remain on our currency, for obvious reasons. 

We will continue to selectively use the Scriptures, as they remain invaluable in our efforts to minimize the problematic communities; LGBT, people of color, women, non-Christians, to name a few.

And we’ll continue to aggressively showcase the Altar Call/Sinner’s Prayer/Salvation from Hell initiative, as those nicely undergird our Sin Management, Fear Leverage, and Damnation initiatives, which are still cornerstones of our organization and remain great membership drivers and income generators.

Your past two thousand years of faithful service are greatly appreciated, and to show our gratitude for your contributions we will still mention you as we gather for an hour on Sundays, but beyond that you will not be necessary. As our new boss Mr. Trump likes to say—You’re fired.

We wish you luck with your future endeavors, and trust you will have great success elsewhere, perhaps in the Progressive Church or even the secular field, where your brand of social justice is still a core value.

Warmest Regards and God Bless,

American Evangelical Christianity 

 

432 thoughts on “Dear Jesus, You’re Fired From American Evangelical Christianity

  1. John, this is so very sad but also I fear far truer than any of us dare to admit. It makes the prayer “Come Jesus come” more urgent every passing day. May God have mercy on the souls of all who would tread this path and wh have been blinded by the liesof the evil one!

  2. This doesn’t ring true to me. I think the Evangelicals and other Christians and people of goodwill wanted to see the better candidate win. That happened and now they are going to move on. I don’t think they are obsessing over this election and making it a way of life as some seem to be doing.

    It really is possible to have voted for Trump and still believe in Jesus, believe it or not.

    • One can believe in Christ and not know Him! One can also believe in Him and not follow Him! I am talking about the kind of belief that He exists. One can believe He exists but….

      I have a really hard time believing that Christ is saying, “Right on! You voted in the exact kind of man I want in that position! One that is of high moral character and integrity! One who is going to fulfill the commandment of loving thy neighbor as thyself and one who will only deal in truth! One who will put others above his riches!”
      I could continue on with the list but if these don’t make any difference why bother?

      • Your religious doctrine must be liberal democrat policies as is that of the blog host. You don’t seem to be able to separate Democrat polices from Christian doctrine.

        They don’t preach politics at my church. Do they at yours? It’s about sin and salvation. Finding Heaven and avoiding Hell. Doing good and avoiding evil. Not Trump this and Trump that, or Hillary this or Hillary that, or let’s make rich people pay lots of taxes, etc.

        Have you been following this blog for a long time? I’m very curious. Has the blog host ever written about being sorrowful for your sins? (And I don’t consider being Republican or being white to be a sin, btw). Has he ever said anything good about those Christians who don’t accept the recent invention he calls “progressive” Christianity? Does he ever reach out to those addicted to and weighed down by their sins and offer Christ’s salvation as the remedy? When does he actually do stuff that pastors are supposed to do instead of being a full-time critic of Republicans and non-progressive Christians?

        • Joe, I am very familiar with your rants and your opinions. You have no power here with me. You have the right to your opinions as does John. Leave it at that. One recommendation. Practice what you preach. And try to find a job. You argue/ plead and defend your case on here quiet a bit. When in all actuality…You don’t need too. You’re NOT going to change anyones mind any more than they will change yours. Again…Your rethoric has no power here.

        • Ahh, but you see, I don’t vote for Republican or Democrat. I vote for what that person stands for! Black, white or whatever! I vote for how they have lived their life and not only by what they say. I vote for someone that can show me they care for someone besides themselves.
          Yes, it is about sin and salvation and it is about walking the talk and not just talking. It is very easy to say one thing but live your life in a way that really shows the truth. As it is said, “You will know them by their fruit!”

          And, yes, I can separate man’s ways from God’s ways and that includes both Democrat and Republican!

          Can you honestly tell me that you believe that Christ is okay with how Trump lives his life? That He believes he is setting the kind of example He wants for others to follow?

          • Yes, lets forget the names involved here and their political affiliations and just look at the type of person involved. I am all for that! I still have a problem with anyone that lives their life as dishonest, arrogant, disdainful, selfish, and just plain immoral in way so many ways! That kind of person is not someone I have any respect for and it makes me cringe to think people are holding that sort of person up as a fine example of becoming a Christian to those who may be seeking!

          • I don’t think Christ is ok with how any of us lead our lives unless we are spotless saints. Trump has much work to do, but I expect his new job will humble him and make him into a better person. Meanwhile, I like his policies and the good people he’s appointed. He’s going to a good job for our country. But he’s not going to be our spiritual director. We can find that in our own religion.

            • Oh Joe! You make me laugh! You said you expect Trump’s “new job will humble him and make him into a better person.” LOL! Yes, of course, because that is what more power and fame always do…make you humble and a better person…. LOL! Do you see how your statement is completely ludicrous? Trump is an self-absorbed ego maniac…being put in the most powerful position in the world is only going to make it that much worse.

            • So, you are okay with his hiring foreign workers to work for him? Often cheating them out of what he owes them. Threatening to have them deported if they complain. That the products he and his family are having made are made out of the country and yet he is demanding other businesses keep everything here in the states. That kind of policy is okay with you?

              That just about everyone he has nominated to head various agencies have anti the very thing they are supposed to head up?

              And no, he will never be my spiritual director but many of you have put him on a pedestal as being this wonderful kind, moral, intelligent, person with lots of integrity. Insinuated that he is a good Christian and because of that was the only good choice. You think he is going to do so much for everyone financially even though he has had failure after failure in his business adventures. Often cheating those he has employed. For all of his supposed millions paying very little taxes and sometimes none.
              His lack of morals were put under a rock instead of being looked at as they really are. His lack of respect for women and bragging about what he could do to those that were involved in different businesses he owned because he owned them and he was a “star”.
              One thing so many of you seemed to forget was and is that you had and have a lot of young people watching and listening to what was going on. You also had and have people who were thinking about becoming a Christian watching and listening. All of the hate and disrespect that came out of his mouth while campaigning and even now is disregarded. I don’t know if you have kids or not but do you really want the children of this country looking up to someone like him and emulating his behavior? After all if you were okay with him doing it why isn’t it okay with them doing it? Granted you may not be okay with all of it but I have heard very few of you calling him on any of the disgusting behavior he has shown. If you have a daughter or a wife are you going to be okay if a boss or even just a male came up and grabbed them in the crotch just because he could?
              I fail to see how a male that has such gutter type morals and integrity is going to take this country and make it better. How a person who is really a child in a man’s body is going to lead and protect us in this unstable world. Unfortunately it seems most of you focused on the issues you are interested in an ignored the big picture totally. I am not dismissing anyone’s issues as not being important as I know many of them were and are. However, when there is so much rotten in the barrel otherwise I really find it hard to believe we are going to be greater at all! When you lay with the pigs you are going to get dirty too! When a man believes he is the only one that can do things, that he knows things no one else does, that he has the right to do things no one else does, that he can ignore the laws because of who he thinks he is, that he only has to follow the rules he agrees with, doesn’t that tell you something is off and not off by a little? He is not going to learn to be humble ever. His self image tells him he is perfect and wiser than anyone else so there is nothing wrong to be humbled by. It will only be someone else’s stupidity or irreverence that caused the problem and will never be his fault. I think you really need to take the blinders off and take a real honest look at the person and what he really is that you helped to elect!
              See that is what I had and have the problem with; you took this person who blatantly bragged about the things he has done and feels he had and has a right to do to others, who loved the fact that he had riled his followers up to be hateful and physically abusive as well and you put him in the most powerful position in the US and more than likely the world. You focused on what your interests were and are at the detriment to everyone else! You told the world that you are a Christian and this is the man you are backing. Don’t you think the people looked at both of those things and really have to wonder how they can go together? No candidate is ever perfect of course as not one of us is, but this person has been so blatant in bragging about the things he has done and can do because of who he thinks he is and has no remorse what so ever for anything he has done. As he said, he can do anything even shoot someone and get by with it. Voting him only showed him he was right and the world that he was right! They all have to be wondering if we all have gone on drugs or what as a man that stands for so much of what we are supposed to be against and that is against so much of what we are supposed to be for is now in charge! God help us all as we are really going to need it!

              • EJ I agree with every word you said. Thank you for your words. Others certainly see him through different eyes. Even if he does do something good for this country I will always see him as evil, empty, and amoral.

            • From my understanding of the Scripture, Christ loves all of us just as we are and hopes that with our free we, we strive to live in his imagine. Can you name a single Christ like characteristic of the current POTUS?

              Crickets

              • Thou shall not bare false witness, one if God’s 10 commandments. It’s amazing how he was treated like a god during his TV career but as soon as he ( or any Repulican presidential candidate ) decide to run for president, they are classified the son of Satan.

                • David Schofield, exactly who is bearing false witness here?
                  DT has managed before his first 100 days to be the ultimate in false leadership, too many to mention here and now. But here are a couple: ban on immigration from the very lands Jesus himself hails from, the ridiculous build a wall fiasco, so sophomoric. He is so very un-becoming of the office by his own behavior, not the dude with the horns and pitch fork.
                  No Republican or Democrat is infallible, but this election ushered into office the most unqualified, ill-informed president of all time. (not just an opinion, a fact)
                  https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/07/18/donald-trump-is-not-qualified-to-be-president-and-the-american-people-know-it/?utm_term=.fae1f243949a Only time will tell is he actually IS the spawn of satan. For now he is just an ill-qualified, immature, 4th grade behaving moron who was put into office by a minority of low information, angry voters and the unfortunate electoral college.

        • Oh, yes! Why did being white enter into this at all? Do you think I am black? Don’t assume anything about me and frankly being black, white or whatever has absolutely nothing to do with my opinions or my beliefs!

          I don’t consider either political party as being evil either but there are those in both parties that leave a lot to be desired as being who they claim to be!

        • Whoever you are Joe, I pray you stop attaching catholic to your first name. You are giving our church a bad name and I am tired of listening to your hypocritical comments. My catholic friends are disgusted with your commentary. Thank you.

        • The election was not just about abortion. It was about looking out for the children and less fortunate already in this country. The cabinet appointments are showing us where our new President stands on these issues. Health care, education, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, our veterans assistance, face program cuts. And rights and freedoms are in danger.

        • Let’s also not forget that most members of the KKK like chocolate ice cream so what does that say about the rest of us who like chocolate ice cream?

          You are using a logical fallacy. There are bad people who voted for Clinton as well. That doesn’t necessarily reflect on Clinton or her supporters.

          • I get where you are coming from Rebeccs.

            I think the key here is who the KKK organization endorsed. The KKK Grand Imperial Wizard endorsed Trump but Trump did not comment publicly disavow it.

            Usually when a group endorses a candidate the candidate will either acknowledge or disavow the endorsement to make their position known. For example when Trump got the endorsement from Jerry Falwell Jr he visited Liberty University. Therefore it was considered a kind of tacit acceptance of the KKK endorsement when Trump did not disavow it.

            Trump also received criticism after receiving an endorsement from David Duke (a former Ku Klux Klan grand wizard)  Trump refused to publicly condemn or disavow Duke.  He did eventually, however, say “I disavow. OK?

            So the concern is that Trump is not coming down squarely against white supremacy groups. When the KKK publicly endorsed Ronald Regan here is what Reagan said about it,

            ”Those of us in public life can only resent the use of our names by those who seek political recognition for the repugnant doctrines of hate they espouse,” the president wrote. ”The politics of racial hatred and religious bigotry practiced by the Klan and others have no place in this country, and are destructive of the values for which America has always stood.”

    • “This doesn’t ring true to me. I think the Evangelicals and other Christians and people of goodwill wanted to see the better candidate win. ”

      “People of goodwill??” I think you must have been drinking when you wrote this. This country just elected the NASTIEST, MOST SELF-AGGRANDIZING, EGOTISTICAL person to the Presidency in my lifetime (I am fifty-four years old and I still can’t believe what happened) and you either can’t see it or you refuse to acknowledge it.

      “People of goodwill.” Wow. Just wow. That you can associate DJT with such a word as “goodwill” is ludicrous. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

        • “Policy and personality are two different things.”

          Perhaps, but if you think that personality does not dictate policy then I was right: you HAVE been drinking and more than is good for you, especially at this hour of the morning.

          • I’m not opposed to drinking in moderation, but I don’t drink. And I haven’t been smoking anything either.

            It’s like this. If you needed to sue someone, you might have to use a lawyer who is a SOB, but would you be able to overlook that if he could do the best job and bring you the greatest settlement?

            Not that I think Trump is a bad guy on a personal level. I think he’s probably a very nice guy.

    • Again, you have the right to your opinions Joe. I will state…And it is true. Ms. Clinton, never, ever in any of her campaigning stated, She and she alone” has the power to fix Americas problem. Mr. Trump on the other hand, has… Repeatedly. I for one take offense to that. The is only one God. I hate popping that bubble you live inside. But “Trump” is no Messiah.

      • I think he’ll be a good and possibly a great president. He is not a “messiah.” I don’t look at politicians that way. Most normal people don’t. I think the problem is once again that too many of you here make politics your religion.

        I would have been a little depressed had Hillary won. But I’d be over it by now. My religion has nothing to do with who is in power.

        • Zachary, good comment. All three of us agree, Trump is no messiah. He isn’t even God’s chosen man. He isn’t even America’s chosen leader.

          • Thank you The RJC. Mr. Pavlovic wrote a powerful blog. It certainly gets people to communicate whether we agree or not. You are also very correct…We have nearly 3 million people to back up our argument. Mr. Trump should NEVEr, EVER hold office. Even as the discussions of the close ties to Russia. People are still blind to this man. I wish no ill will to any man. But Satan is having a run for his money.

    • Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. You cannot serve Trump’s mission of division, sexual assault, selfishness and narcissism, xenophobia, and many stripes of intolerance and also serve Christ’s mission of inclusion, reconciliation, compassion, and grace. These missions are fundamentally incompatible. You can believe in Jesus and serve Trump’s agenda. But you can’t equally serve both. Your vote betrays who you follow. Trying to soft soap it otherwise is plainly being dishonest with yourself to say nothing of the rest of us.

      • It seems to me, David, that you have redefined Christianity and Christ’s message using Liberal Democrat rhetoric.

        Besides that, you are being dishonest. There is no mission for any of the things you listed. If there is I’m unaware of a policy which promotes “sexual assault,” for example. Please cite the “pro-sexual assault” policy in the Trump platform.

        One of the things on Trump’s agenda is to appoint pro-life Supreme Court Justices, which works in favor of the unborn and against their unjust killing. I believe that I am better serving Christ by voting for the lives of innocent babies than for the jobs of abortionists. That goes against Jesus and compassion?

        Besides all that, I don’t “serve” two masters. I voted for a President and not for a master. Christ is the master. I used the intellect and will that Christ gave me to make the best decision for my country.

        I’m not “soft soaping” anything. I believe Trump was the obvious choice for the Christian, but I understand how some Christians might have made a different choice and I don’t condemn them for that.

        • Any one else wonder how long it would take this bore to go to “abortion?” This troll is putting all of us to sleep with this tedious tirade.

          • He always does. He writes nice words that on the surface seem so logical until one really thinks about them. Then one comes to the conclusion that they are being written by someone who is from the 17th century. And by one who really has no idea what the real teachings of Christianity are.

        • Joe you are obsessed with the abortion thing!That is all you are concerned about….Abortions will happen no matter who the hell you think is going to be the judge! Who are you to be the judge of a woman’s choice and I wonder why it bothers you sooo much?

          • The murder of any innocent person should bother everyone. The unborn child is one of the most disenfranchised segments of society- with no voice of their own- and absolutely innocent but can be torn apart , limb by limb. Yes, that does bother most compassionate people. The child is paying for the actions of others.

            • The disregard and seeming contempt the alleged Christians who frequent this site have towards the unborn child is depressing to say the least. Thank you for shining a light in this dark space.

              • Joe you delight so much in setting people off that you have no clue that sometime people have to be honest with you about how they feel.

      • “You can believe in Jesus and serve Trump’s agenda. But you can’t equally serve both. ”

        Hmmm … and when your government promotes drone strikes which kill innocent civilians along with terrorist leaders? Are you still serving Christ’s agenda?

        Shall we discuss your government when it destabilizes regimes, not matter how corrupt, so that thousands upon thousands die and hundreds of thousands are left homeless? You and Christ still on the same page? I must have missed that lesson in Bible Class.

        How do you justify the use of violence by the government at all and be hip with Jesus’ mission of ‘turn the other cheek’ and Peace for all Mankind?

        You can’t because governments aren’t moral centers and we don’t want them to be. Why? For starters, we all enjoy things like ‘property rights’ which our government protects. You wouldn’t have the computers to post on without them most likely.

        We are protected from the predilections of the truly lawless, foul and willingly evil by a government willing to match force with force and imprison those who oppose our amoral community legislation. Not amoral? Then why is there any difference between the wealthy and the poor? Precisely why do we have a currency … as opposed to simply doling out what we need as we need it? That would definitely promote equality while suppressing greed.

        For that matter why doesn’t make it a priority to deal with the hopeless, spiritually bereft and alone?

        At what point did ANYONE consider the person sitting in the Oval Office of the White House to be THE MORAL AUTHORITY for anyone? I certainly never have and definitely never have encouraged others to think so. IMO, our government has to to horrible things on our behalf ~ like killing ‘bad people’ who are cool with murdering thousands of others ~ which would be difficult if they were wrapped up in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

        If you really think the Trump Administration will be more ‘rapie’, carry out purges and round people up into concentration camps … I think you have bought into a load of propaganda, or are fear-mongering. The men and women serving in the government ~ the foot-soldiers of the regime ~ will largely be the same people who served under President Obama and operating under the same Constitutional constraints. I am not sure why you think their mindsets would all change overnight.

        President Trump can’t do anything to Muslim citizens – they are US citizens. No ‘Star of David’ for them.

        He can do something about Muslim immigration. That is immigration and if you cannot see the places they are leaving are a dangerous mess … well then, that is your willful blindness.

        If you think the LGBTQ community is under assault … you have missed out on our President-elect proudly waving the LGBTQ flag on MULTIPLE OCCASIONS. He is not your enemy. He never has been.

        Narcissism … are you kidding me? What kind of person wants to be President of the United States in the first place? Not your ‘wall-flowers’, that’s for bloody, damn sure. Trump is a showman and he always has been. Narcissists are all about themselves. Trump, on the other hand, has done a bang-up job raising well-adjusted, successful children – something a narcissist couldn’t do. Like the Wizard of freaking Oz, look behind the screen ~ the Showman ~ to see what is really going on.

        Sexual assault ~ what? And I say again ‘what?’ This is fear-mongering in the extreme. There was precisely one candidate in the last election who told a 12 year old girl she deserved to be raped repeatedly until she was put into a coma … and it wasn’t Donald Trump.

        Yes, absolutely, it was Hillary Clinton providing her client the best defense under the law. Secretary Clinton even admits she believed the defendant was guilty of RAPE yet still worked to get him a much reduced sentence. It was just “Legal-Room Talk”. Did she do the ‘morally just thing’, or did she do what was necessary to keep her law license? She went on to keep practicing law folks.

        Btw, I agree with Hillary’s decision. She was a lawyer and she was asked by the judge to do the job as the defense attorney and she did admirable work. The Prosecutor mishandled key evidence … and that was that. Another ugly episode of our ‘Justice’ system.

        In turn, President-elect Trump’s offensive offenses, while numerous, have never reached the level of criminal malfeasance and Lord knows, people have tried and tried to pin things on him. Don’t pretend any different. Unnamed sources at the FBI and CIA … well, if their information was credible, they wouldn’t be UNNAMED SOURCES, now would they? The Obama Administration would have gladly barbecued Trump’s ass if they had any ammunition. Lacking that … all we have left is a smear campaign.

        Racial division … again, are you freaking kidding me? 8 years of President Obama have been what have torn this Nation apart racially. Simply put, Black Americans voted for Obama in record numbers, even against their economic interests, simply because he as Black. They were openly encouraged to do so.

        Immigration Reform became a matter of courting the Hispanic vote instead of dealing with the real world economic and legal consequences of millions of illegal immigrants living among us.

        In the same manner, women were openly encouraged to vote for Hillary Clinton solely because she was a women … there is your divisiveness and it didn’t come from the Trump camp. The Democratic Party handed him that ‘gift’ so he exploited it too ~ just like they were.

        Don’t think so? What do you think the “if Trump gets elected, horrible things will happen to [insert your group of interest]” was all about? It was the politics of division and exploiting people’s fears of the unknown despite virtually every groups’ rights being protected by the freaking US Constitution plus the array of federal courts which routinely have supported said rights.

        For 8 years the Democrats peddled the Republican Party as the party of Old Angry White Men … yet last November that lie was brutally exposes. The shaming wore so thin it eventually failed as do all such bullying attempts.

        This is not to say there aren’t Old Angry White guys, or White Supremacists, or the Christian Evangelical Right. They are a definite factor. The problem is they could NOT have elected Trump … yet so many on the other side ~ the resistance ~ refuse to acknowledge it.

        It was more White women for voting for Trump than Hillary, and more Black and Hispanic voters voting for Trump 2016 vs. those who voted for McCain 2008 and Romney 2012.

        More people cast votes for Hillary, but even then she only garnered 48% of the vote ~ not the majority. Do we want to go into the overall crappy turnout?

        I don’t claim to know the mind of Christ. I do find it very hard to believe he was for, or against, either candidate. The struggle against evil has ALWAYS been an individual struggle within one’s soul.

        To claim the Trump regime is evil borders on the idiotic because the US government was NEVER GOOD to begin with. It has never been about the battle for a person’s soul. That is not what it was created for. It was created to care-take our concerns in the material world, not deal with our spiritual concerns. To think otherwise … SMH.

    • I agree, you’re correct. You could have voted for Trump and still believe in Jesus! But unfortunately, that’s about as far as it goes. You can believe in Jesus, but you obviously can’t believe in the principals and teschings of Jesus. The two don’t coincide…. not a little, not at all. The truth is maybe you believe in the pageantry of Jesus, like buying a high school lettermans jacket, but not really having played the game.

      • No, I believe that Christ is God in the flesh and that he came to lay down his life for the Salvation of mankind. I believe that He continues to speak to us through his Church and the Scriptures.

        How do you know that I don’t believe in Christian principles? Is that some kind of anti-Catholic insinuation?

        At any rate, my Church doesn’t say, and neither does it say anywhere in Scriptures that I could not vote for Donald Trump, especially when I had Christian reasons for doing so.

        I can’t say you’re not a Christian for voting for Hillary in spite of the fact that she fully embraces a very unjust policy, but you can say I’m not a Christian because I voted for Trump?

        If so, I think you have made politics your religion.

        • I don’t think he is making politics his religion rather he is expressing his disbelief that christians would support and vote for Trump .

                • We don’t need to have a specific law for those who are not yet born. You would not be able to enforce such a law because the fetus cannot exist outside the womb. In fact the fetus is physically attached to the mother. Their flesh is entwined as one. The rights of the mother supersedes any rights of the fetus at this point. I am pretty sure that was the essence of the Supreme court ruling. Once the baby is born they are sill consider to be under the care and responsibility of their parents or a guardian until they are a certain age. In the case of a child, because it can thrive outside the womb, there are laws which protect their rights to the necessities of life and protection from harm. I think abortion ends the potential of the life that was conceived. I find it very difficult to reconcile it but I have faith in God that his grace will prevail. I follow the Catholic church closely and read this recently about the Pope :

                  “Pope Francis has given all priests the power to forgive women who have had an abortion, saying the procedure was a “grave sin” but one that God’s mercy could wipe away for those with a repentant heart.”

                  That pretty much sums up how I think and feel about it.

                  • So you pretty much are ok with abortionists ripping babies out of the wombs of their mothers. You hope is stops some day, but will do absolutely nothing to protect the unborn from unjust death.

                    Of course the sin of abortion like the sin of murder or rape can be forgiven but that shouldn’t be used as a justification.

                    • I have a charity I give to and there is a man who stands outside the abortion clinic in my city. I spend time talking to him whenever I see him. He is very devoted. I worry about his safety sometimes. He doesn’t talk to people although some people yell at him or insult him or try to damage his sign. Some people are afraid of him but he is quiet and harmless. He is a rare gentle soul.

                      As well, I listen and listen and listen to heartbreaking stories without judgement. I accept the ruling for now. I do what I can- when I can and for whoever crosses my path whether they are for or against something I believe in.

                      I have lost the trust of some friends because of my opinion on this- form both sides- because I am not a hardliner. I try to understand and I pray for help to understand better.

                      God bless, take care of yourself.

    • The better candidate is the one who mocked a handicapped person, admitted to groping / sexually assaulting women, embraces war, excludes people based on gender, race and religion as well as refuses to be transparent about taxes and business dealings. He has discounted any news except what comes from his own lips. He called out to Russia to hack emails, discounts intelligence reports, violates the constitution and laws on Nepotism. That’s the better candidate?

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        These stories are based on reporting for “Trump Revealed,” a broad, comprehensive examination of the life of the Republican president-elect. The best-selling biography, written by Post reporters Michael Kranish and Marc Fisher in collaboration with more than two dozen Post writers, researchers and editors, was published by Scribner on Aug. 23. An updated paperback edition published Jan. 10

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/trumprevealed/?wpisrc=ad_trumprevealed_promo&wpmm=1

      • No, I’ve just reached a point where I’m no longer shocked and have less of a tendency for the knee-jerk response. I’m in more of a “WTF mode” at the moment.

        So he says that Evangelicals are throwing out Jesus because Trump is now their new boss?

        Who thinks like that? Would Hillary be his boss if she had won?

        I’m happy Trump won because I think he’s best for our country at this time, but Trump is not my boss and not my life, and lamenting Hillary Clinton would not be my life had she won.

        You talk about Hell as if you believe in it. Do you know that JP doesn’t? According to one of his blogs he apparently has reasoned it out that his God would not be so mean as to make a Hell. So where then does Donald Trump and his Evangelical minions go after departing this life?

        Anyway, I know you’ve got some big problems with the Fundies and Evangelicals, and I frankly am not sure if they are the same or what the distinction is, but do you go so far as to agree with JP that Trump is now their boss? I’m more inclined to think that they have moved on and are working on doing whatever they do to help others and save souls and are not making politics their religion, nor Trump their Pope or Jesus.

        • From what I read John Pavlovitz does not believe in the eternal hell or punishment as described by church doctrines that were greatly influenced by Dante’s Inferno- not the Bible.

          If you don’t understand what fundamentalism or evangelism are or what the distinctions are between them- then stop taking about it until you know better. Your comment makes me think you understand progressive christianity even less. And much of what you say is based on a lack of knowledge of the subject matter.

    • LMAO!!! Here we go again with JC’s twisted logic. Of course you can still believe in Jesus, but you can’t call yourself Christian because you just don’t believe in his teaching.

    • “Joe Catholic” — How so? tRump and his policies have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth. They are, in fact, the antithesis of Him.

    • I think you can believe in Jesus but you don’t know Jesus.

      He’s a wealthy man…we know how Jesus felt about the wealthy.

      Here’s the thing-neither candidate measured up to Jesus; however, only one was ran as the country’s savior.

      Trump’s platform was not inclusive to all Americans….he only catered to a particular demographic and won that demographic. Doesn’t matter he couldn’t fulfill what he promised-it worked.

    • But it is not possible to have voted for Trump and to follow Jesus’s teachings. Trump’s behavior and Jesus’s teachings are antithetical to each other.

      You had a president who follow Jesus and his teachings. You hated him.

    • The election was not just about abortion. It was about looking out for the children and less fortunate already in this country. The cabinet appointments are showing us where our new President stands on these issues. Health care, education, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, our veterans assistance, face program cuts. And rights and freedoms are in danger.

    • We are asked by God to love all people because they are made in the image of God. Satan always tries to separate us from our loving and forgiving Savior who is Jesus.

  3. As is the case with many of John’s blogs he speaks in negative generalities towards Conservative/Evangelical/Biblical Christianity and cites no references to substantiate his claims. I’m not sure what troubles me more- The unbiblical content and attitude of many of John’s blogs or that there is an audience that supports his blogs.

      • Hi Karen. Thank you for posting the article. Is your point (or do you believe it is John’s) that voting for Donald Trump (which I did not do nor did vote for Hillary) equates to turning him (Trump) into a faux messiah? If so, that is a rather judgmental and unfair attitude toward a large segment of Christians.

        • Not a large segment of Christians at all. It is only a comment about those who choose to vote for the evil that is Trump.

          It is those who voted for him who talk about him as is he were a messiah. He apparently considers himself a messiah since “only he knows” this or that and the rest of us are stupid idiots.

          What comes out of a person’s mouth, is a direct reflection of what is in their heart. If hate, fear, violence, and insults come from the mouth, rest assured that IS the person’s heart.

          • As a told Zachary, I understand the dislike for Trump. He is arrogant and operated in a world where he was accountable to nobody.
            On the other hand, Hillary Clinton was not the moral high ground. Anyone who speaks highly of a racist (Margaret Sanger) that created an organization to murder minorities is at least just as evil. Not to mention Hillary’s own arrogance and dishonesty.

            As someone who knows many people that voted for Trump, an overwhelming majority do not (nor should they) view him as a messiah. This Trump voter bashing that John focuses on is unhealthy and needs to stop.

            • John P exercises his gift of exhortation with a prophetic voice as did the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures. It is not bashing anyone when one speaks the truth.

              John P speaks the truth. Fact is, a great many American evangelicals have indeed fired Jesus and they did so in the some time in the 1970s when they began to celebrate the Moral Majority which gave them license to cease to love all their neighbors as themselves and chose to interpret Jesus’ words as a way to endorse and excuse white privilege.

              Yes, I am aware that there are non-whites who are also evangelicals. Unfortunately, American evangelicalism is not a place where non-white evangelicals are loved as neighbors by white evangelicals.

              How can I say this? Decades of watching white evangelical churches increasingly causing non-white evangelicals to open churches for themselves because they weren’t welcome in the white ones.

              • How can John have a spiritual gift when he is not a Christian? John has a low view of scripture and proclaims a false gospel. Read Galatians 1.

                • You are the one who declares yourself to be something other than a Christian when you claim to know the mind of God about John P’s heart.

                  I bid ****you**** read Jeremiah, Amos, Michah, Obadiah, all of the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures and note that they say exactly what John P says.

                  Those prophets and John P all say the same thing: Nation and people, repent of your sins and your evil and turn back to God.

                  American white evangelical Christianity fired Jesus decades ago.

                    • Well, what a load of hogwash to claim John P is a false teacher.

                      You think the Gospel teaches us to be bigots, fascists, gynophobes, homophobes, liars, misogynists, racists, rapists, sexual assaulters/molestors, transgenderphobes, white supremacists, and xenophobes?

                      If you do, then you are the one who has been misled by false teachers because those things violate Jesus commandment to love your neighbor as yourself, to do unto others as you would have them do to you.

                    • Never said the gospel promotes hate. How can John be a Christian when he proclaims a false gospel? Are you praying for Trump or does your love and compassion stop at candidates you don’t like?

                    • Since when is Hell “good news.” You people are so pathetic. The Gospel is not about escaping Hell. It is about reconciliation with God. It is about God’s love. Not about God’s vengeance. You people are about this:

                      “I got saved from Hell. F*ck you Jesus if you think I am going to live my life doing all that love sh*t in the New Testament.”

                • Declan. Whether or not John P. or anyone else is or is not a Christian is not your final call to make. God reserves that unto himself. By doing this, you are committing the gravest Biblical sin of all—the same sin as Eve—wanting to play God.

        • Our Messiah is Jesus. [John P is a humanist, just like Ms Streep.] John P says on his website: ‘I cannot answer these questions — is the bible true? –am I born again?’

          Humanism: a philosophical & ethical stance that emphasizes the value & agency of human beings individually & collectively & affirms their ability to improve their lives through the use of reason & ingenuity as opposed to submitting blindly to tradition or authority.

          • You’ve posted arguably the most factual and indisputable information in your posts (including the one below about his church) and nobody seems to care. The emotion generated from the blogs appears to be more important than truth.

          • 1) John P. is not a humanist. He is a Christian. The humanists believe in treating other people the way Jesus would treat them. They just do it apart from God, whereas Christians do it because of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

            2) No one can answer the question of whether the Bible is true because we do not have the original manuscripts and we do not have a time machine to go back thousands of years and check it out. Whatever we think about the Bible is a matter of reason or faith or a combination of the two.

            3) No one knows whether they are born again. Just like Jesus said, some who think they will be first will be last. Some who think they are last will be first. Whether you are really born again is something you will never find out for certain until you die. Yes, I know that the Bible says, “that ye might know that ye are saved.” But that means a depth of faith so deep that it closely approaches knowing—but final knowing per se only happens in Heaven.

            • Charles, correct me if I’m off base here but it is the Holy Spirit that is inerrant and infallible. It is the Spirit that enables our ability to understand the Light of scripture. And the Spirit always magnifies the character and message of Christ. Further, it is my belief that only an individual can say whether they are. (saved) possessed by the Spirit. We cannot know the heart of another. We can declare it but cannot prove it except by our actions, by the fruit of the Spirit within us.

            • This is the most asinine and stupid statement I think I have ever heard. The apostle John declares: “These things I have written to you so tht you might know that you have eternal life, and that you can believe in Jesus.”

              So he blows your nonsense right out of the water! Maybe you need to study the doctrine of ASSURANCE in order that you might know that a believer can have the blessed assurance that Jesus is his/her’s!

        • I have no idea how you interpreted my short comment above as stating that I believe voting for Trump turns him into a messiah. I’m baffled by your saying that. I posted that article to show that the majority of evangelicals voted for Trump, according to the Washington Post and many other sources.

          For the record, I do not believe that voting for that vile man equates to turning him into a messiah. He is the furthest thing from a messiah, or anything Christian and is one of the most offensive, dangerous, petty man I have ever been exposed to.

        • I think that’s exactly what Karen is saying and I totally agree with her. It’s not judgmental toward Christians because if they voted for Trump, they can no longer call themselves Christian.

          • Recovering RC … what? Who declared you Pope? Or Inquisitor? Or are you a simple, old-fashioned witch-hunter? Are you going stone us in the public square, put stones on our chest, dunk us in the water ~ the ‘Make America Great Again’ buttons will cause us to sink beneath the surface evermore?

            Perhaps a few Trumpiestas being burned alive at the stake would slake your bloodlust?

            Not what you meant? Really? The last time one set of people began excluding another group from the Faith, such things happened. Because … “God was on my side” … which excuses all sorts of horrible behavior. Since you have decided we are no longer Christians, why do you care what happens to us? You have reduced us in your eyes, diminished our beliefs and goals … because you know the Will of God … yeah … right.

            • I can understand why you are overreacting to the point made by Recovering RC. However, it is the christians who endorsed Trump and who referred to Trump as being anointed by God as another King Cyrus. It is the christians who says God answered their prayers through Trump. This is what Recovering RC and other are commenting on.

              How can people call themselves christians after falling for the lie that God chose Trump to be their representative? I can’t relate to that.

              But it doesn’t mean they are not christians rather it calls into question how they view the Gospel. So, rather than attacking each other’s faith we can question the position a christian takes.

              • Okay ‘the real Joe Catholic’, but I don’t give those people any credence either. Trump is barely a Republican, much less a dedicated Christian of any denomination. The ‘Second Coming’ … of anything? That is delusional thinking.

                What Trump is is ‘Not A Politician’ which is apparently what the Republican electorate wanted despite the expressed desires of their Establishment and what the American people elected thanks to us being a Republic and not a Popularity Contest.

                At best, Donald J. Trump is a Manhattan Republican. People should look that up before making any declarations about what they think he might stand for.

    • I will defend John( not that he needs me too), because he happens to be expressing himself for himself and for maybe some that feel they don’t have a voice and possibly feel the same way. We as Americans have been listening to this buffoon (Trump) for months on end… toughting out his rethoric of hate and negatively/decisiveness and downright lies. Yes Americans cheer him on with a blind eye and give him a platform to continue to do so. I will say…I have never once read or seen “John” comparing himself to the Messiah, that only he, and he alone can deliver us. John’s words teach us love and a different point of view. So if you can listen/read and watch some one who’s every word is a lie… Try looking at yourself and what you believe. (No one is judging you).
      I for one am grateful John shares his insight. He often gives me comfort through his writings. Just saying.

      • Zachary, I have often said that I believe John P exercises a prophetic gift of exhortation as did the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures.

      • Hi Zachary. I get the dislike for Trump, however, I encourage you and everyone else to read and meditate on I Timothy2:1-3. As Christians, we are called to submit and pray for those in authority.
        I never said John exalted himself as a messianic figure and I encourage you if you want to be taught how to love people you can find that in God’s Word. I’m sure John is a nice guy, unfortunately, he is deceived. It is not love he promotes it is tolerance of unrepentant sin.
        Finally, if you truly love the Lord I recommend you go back and read John’s blogs on the Bible and the gospel. Here’s a hint, he promotes a false one.

        • Evidently, you are unfamiliar with the history of our faith. Conscientious objection has been a Christian responsibility ever since Jesus’ followers were asked to sacrifice to Roman gods. I doubt even St. Paul would have expected Christians to submit to the authority and worship in an idolatrous manner.

          Christians resist evil, pure and simple. We don’t submit to evil.

          • Please read Romans 13:1. Jesus was not proclaiming revolution against Rome.

            Do you believe Paul and the other authors of the Bible were led by the Holy Spirit when they wrote it?

            • Of course, I do. As much as I believe that conscientious objection is part and parcel of loving our neighbor as ourselves.

              Do you believe that those Christians who were asked to sacrifice to Roman gods should have done so because Paul and other authors said to submit to human authority?

              Pretty certain that there are occasions when following the commandment of Jesus to love one’s beighbor as one’s self trumps obedience to human authority.

              • God’s commands supersede those of men. If the government says burn your bibles and stop attending church then we must disobey. No government body or individual leader is our enemy. Not Trump, Obama, Paul Ryan, or Nancy Pelosi. They need our prayers not our hatred.

                We must always keep preaching the gospel and making disciples our focus.

                • Exactly. So if you were to be consistent, you would be a fan of John P because he does exactly as you say we should be doing. Only with the voice God gives him.

                  • John speaks his own words and out of hatred for all things conservative. He praises Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama who promote abortion and unrepentant sin (i.e. homosexuality). Where is his outrage for the death of the innocent? Every 97 seconds planned parenthood dismembers another innocent life. But it’s ok for him to bash Trump.

                    • Oh. I see. You must be another Joe Catholic in disguise, dragging in the usual red herring, no matter how off-topic.

                      I will not enable your pathological obsessions.

                    • I’m not Joe but you ignore the issue. You hate Trump but not the murder endorsed by your candidate.

                    • Her own church condemns abortion. Sadly, she goes against her church’s compassion for the unborn and sides with abortionists and their tools of murder.

                      It’s not a “red herring” at all. That’s the cornerstone and sacrament of their religion/politics.

                  • John speaks his own words and not from God. He speaks hatred toward conservative theology and politics then heaps praise on Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama who promote abortion and unrepentant sin (i.e. homosexuality). Where is John’s moral outrage toward the dismemberment planned parenthood performs every 97 seconds? There isn’t any because it conflicts with his politics.

                    • The troll here is John Pavlovitz. He makes general claims with no evidence, promotes hate, towards conservatism, and proclaims a false gospel that sadly people believe.

                    • Declan, Jesus did not promote revolution at his time so why did America have a revolution and why did America have a civil war?
                      (Wars which advanced though citizens and generals on their knees both sides praying to their God? )

                      Who won the wars ? Did one side annihilate the other ? We can’t say Jesus didn’t start a revolution and then support the Military–industrial complex or support conservative against liberal.

                      Conservatives don’t want Christianity to progress forward. And the conservatives are using every means possible to discourage the church from moving forward- through threats of hell, through name calling, through fear of the other and through anxiety about safety.

                      This what John Pavlovitz speaks against.

                    • Note: Lesbian Episcopal priest, Rev Susan Russell (All Saints Pasadena), is on the Advisory Board of Planned Parenthood. (along with other liberal clergy members. )

                      The say that Planned Parenthood is ‘doing God’s work.’

                      Former President of Episcopal Divinity School, lesbian Katharine H. Ragsdale says, ‘When a woman can receive an abortion at any stage, for any reason, or no reason, our work in the abortion lobby will be done.” She also said, ‘Abortion is not a tragedy, it is a blessing.’

                    • Thanks leslie, if that is true, then it makes sense why you have strong negative feelings about liberals and progressives. I will have to ask around and speak with my Episcopal friends and ask if they think abortion is a blessing. I lived all my life surrounded by people who are pro-choice but NEVER met anyone who is pro-abortion or who has ever said abortion was a blessing.

                      But, I do remember when it became a political battle in the city I lived in and the push was on to legalize abortion and the clinics were popping up in a few neighbourhoods. The rhetoric on both sides got more ingrained and I think that is what happens when an issue like this becomes political . So I can see that those who fought for legalization made this a woman’s rights issue and those who fought against it picketed clinics and held signs showing gruesome pictures of aborted fetus and in some cases threw rocks at the buildings and screamed murderers with a megaphone and in other places bombed the buildings or killed the doctors. That is what happens when the issue becomes polarized to the point of extremism.

                    • Charles: Lots of us know than Joe comes here as many, many people. How? The rhetoric: Abortion, chopped up babies, etc. For the life of me I can’t understand why some keep engaging him. He’s chuckling all the while.

          • I encourage you to read Romans 13:1. Also, Jesus was not encouraging revolution against the Romans.
            Also, do you believe Paul and the other authors of the Bible were led by the Holy Spirit when they wrote it?

            • Look What’s happening….
              The federal week in review:
              1. Trump fires all Ambassadors and Special Envoys, ordering them out by inauguration day.
              2. House brings back the Holman rule allowing them to reduce an individual civil service, SES positions, or political appointee’s salary to $1, effectively firing them by amendment to any piece of legislation. We now know why they wanted names and positions of people in Energy and State.
              3. Senate schedules 6 simultaneous hearings on cabinet nominees and triple-books those hearings with Trump’s first press conference in months and an ACA budget vote, effectively preventing any concentrated coverage or protest.
              4. House GOP expressly forbids the Congressional Budget Office from reporting or tracking ANY costs related to the repeal of the ACA.
              5. Trump continues to throw the intelligence community under the bus to protect Putin, despite the growing mountain of evidence that the Russians deliberately interfered in our election.
              6. Trump breaks a central campaign promise to make Mexico pay for the wall by asking Congress (in other words, us, the taxpayers) to pay for it.
              7. Trump threatens Toyota over a new plant that was never coming to the US nor will take jobs out of the US.
              8. House passes the REINS act, giving them veto power over any rules enacted by any federal agency or department–for example, FDA or EPA bans a drug or pesticide, Congress can overrule based on lobbyists not science. Don’t like that endangered species designation, Congress kills it.
              We – progressive, liberal, libertarian and conservative – need to all wake up to what is actually happening to our beloved country.
              #UnitedWeStand
              COPY AND PASTE this entire post into your own status update instead of sharing. More of your friends will see it.

        • John’s pastor, Doug Hammack, (N Raleigh Community Church) offers ‘A Course in Miracles’ to his congregation. ‘A Course in Miracles’ was channeled (1972) by atheist Dr Helen Schucman, by ‘jesus’.
          (but she herself did not adhere to ‘A Course in Miracles’, and kept her involvement a secret until after her death.)

          Here’s some sample Lessons from the ‘Course in Miracles’:
          # 251: Sin is illusion.
          #253: I (self) am the ruler of the Universe.
          #73: I (self) will that there is Light.
          #96: Salvation comes from me (myself).
          #311: Christ’s last judgment, will not judge, there is no sin.
          #271: God created Jesus
          #285: My (self) holiness shines bright.

          • I pray the people that believe in what John writes will have the scales removed from their eyes and discern that he is a wolf in sheep clothes (unintentionally). Thank you for sharing this.

            • An American Journey of Ambition, Ego, Money, and Power
              These stories are based on reporting for “Trump Revealed,” a broad, comprehensive examination of the life of the Republican president-elect. The best-selling biography, written by Post reporters Michael Kranish and Marc Fisher in collaboration with more than two dozen Post writers, researchers and editors, was published by Scribner on Aug. 23. An updated paperback edition published Jan. 10

              https://www.washingtonpost.com/trumprevealed/?wpisrc=ad_trumprevealed_promo&wpmm=1

            • leslie, be careful what write. I don’t think you have done your research very well. There is a ‘Course in Miracles’ by an author called Marianne Williamson. As well that title is used by others. The truth is you don’t know the content of the course so why are you writing this comment? Best thing, if you are curious is to ask the church yourself.

              always do your research people. .

              • In 1992, Marianne Williamson wrote a book called: ‘Return to Love’. It was a reflection on Dr Helen Schucman’s book, ‘A Course in Miracles’.

                Oprah promoted ‘The Course in Miracles’ and offered it on her web site. Williams became an instant millionaire, when she sold her companion book.

                Ms Williamson has not changed any of Ms Schucman’s book. The same (365) Lessons are still there. Williamson says: ‘sin is imaginary. evil is imaginary. jesus is not necessary. Humans are divine. Truth is relative. The Course is just one path to truth. “

                • Still, do you know for sure this is what the course is all about? Did you contact the church or did you assume it?

                  Furthermore, what is the big deal about sin anyways ? Jesus defeated sin didn’t he? And now we live as new creatures in Christ. I hardly ever think about sin anymore. Sin seems so small and insignificant , so powerless.

                    • You aren’t really interested in good faith discussions, are you? You’re just trolling me. At any rate, I think you know what I meant, but I’ll be specific. If you have a same-sex attraction, but are not acting on it and are living a celibate life, you are not sinning. If you have a sexual partner outside of a marriage between a man and a woman, then you are involved in some very serious sin that does have great power over you.

                    • [Sarcasm Alert ] Congrats, ‘the real Joe Catholic’. I’m heterosexual. I’m glad I got that off my chest. I’ve been holding back for years about it … being heterosexual, but thanks to your bravery, I feel I can come into the light.

                      Honestly, unless you are a Gay Rights Activist, or in a Gay Male Review, I don’t imagine your sexual preference matters much to you in your day-to-day life in the same way most of us heteros don’t think about it much either.

                      Also, if you are going to practice your gayness, could you do it in that spot set aside to the lower right of the screen. It is okay if you practice here, but we just want you practicing too close folder holding the pictures of my children. 😉

                    • Joe really? A practicing gay? I have never heard that one. Did you come up with that on your own? I have never thought of myself as a practicing heterosexual. What was the date you “chose” to be heterosexual?

                    • James Dosher, was this included in your sarcasm alert?

                      “Honestly, unless you are a Gay Rights Activist, or in a Gay Male Review, I don’t imagine your sexual preference matters much to you in your day-to-day life in the same way most of us heteros don’t think about it much either.”

                      Or is this something that you honestly believe? If it is the latter, your language betrays your ignorance. Being gay is not a sexual preference, it is a sexual orientation. A sexual preference is if you like to keep your socks on or have at it on the kitchen counter.

                      For a person who is gay, their sexual orientation matters tremendously in their day-to-day life. One has to be cautious of all movement. In many situations, one has to monitor every word spoken so that one’s sexual orientation is not betrayed. When you can be fired, evicted, assaulted or killed for being gay, every waking moment is spent acting straight.

                      “Heteros” may not think about it, but heteros are not under attack for being who they are.

                    • The issue remains there are people who are not safe, or do not feel safe. We should work to allay those fears and make sure no one’s rights are violated. After all, you never know when ‘we’ might be ‘unpopular’ and need the solidarity.

                  • RJC… ‘A Course in Miracles’ is offered on Thurs mornings at N Raleigh Community Church. It’s on the Church Calendar.

                    The Church also belongs to a large Network of (Christian Social) ‘Meet-up Groups’. There is a Meet-Up Group called, ‘Spirit World.’ Which is billed as a ‘Spiritual Theme Park’. There you can meet-up w/ like minded friends for; Astrology /Tarot Card readings, Crystal Reading, Aromatherapy, ‘Archangel Light’, Shaman Divination, Nature-Energy, Psychic Conferences & Fairs.

                  • Ms. Brush, I did misspeak somewhat. I do not believe homosexuality is a “choice” no more than heterosexuality is. Neither are a ‘preference’. In the same vein, I believe transsexuals are souls born in the wrong gender’s body. I’ve known too many to think any other way.

                    On the other hand, I don’t believe sexual orientation has to be the defining characteristic for any person. I don’t like anyone going “she’s a lesbian” and then assigning traits to them without engaging them in conversation. Some people need to be reminded that LGBTQ folks are people too ~ with the appropriate benefits and pitfalls.

                    As for persecution ~ my daughter is openly bi-sexual, so I worry about such things yet we don’t let fear rule her life. It helps my daughter has a strong support network at school. If your situation is worse … what can I do to help?

                    • James I got what you were saying I think admist all the mumerous comments and complex perspectives because not all people believe exactly the same things there can be misunderstan-dings

                      Peace to you both.

                    • James, I believe we are on the same page. With those clarifications, I m in hearty agreement.

                      Thank you for your offer of help. That was very kind. I am an older person and able to live very safely while being true to myself. It is a privilege that far too many LGBTQ2A folk do not have.

                      RJC, thank you as well. I have appreciated your humour and the way you think.

        • All I Timothy 2:1-3 is saying is to avoid pissing off kings and other people in authority so they will not persecute the church. Donald Trump is not going to persecute the church—that is if he values the 1st Amendment.

          Even God is opposed to evil leaders. see Ramses II.

        • I appreciate your point of view and correspondence. I find peace with my heart when reading John Pavlovic writing. I’m not saying he is right…Not saying he is wrong. I know with this current posting that I choose to and must have my faith in God. I accept the love and forgiveness of Jesus Christ. He is the only one that judges. Mr. Trump has exibited zero compassion. His only interest is to himself. It’s not a judgement as much as it is a very sound observation. When I hear a man Mr. Trump, compare himself to a Messiah…I am extremely offended. Please feel free to look it up. He stated…And I quote. “I alone, can fix what is wrong with America”. He is a dangerous man. I for one have gratitude and in hopes I have lived my life to God’s standards and won’t have to be worried about being judged by man. I can’t support a man who constantly lies, bullies people, name calls. He is the ideal candidate for what evil stands for. This is my opinion. It’s not wrong and it may not be right. But it is right for me. I’m good with that.

          • Zachary, you said,

            “It’s not a judgement as much as it is a very sound observation.”

            That’s it exactly. Thanks for your contribution. I think you have a down to earth reflective way of expressing yourself, which is nice to read on this blog, very refreshing 🙂

      • Amen to that. Has everyone forgotten the one about Judge not lest you be judged. I don’t agree with the fundies but I would die to protect their right to that belief structure. On the other hand, they can’t do that with me. Sad……………

    • I’ve never read once where it had too. As his blog clearly states…”Things that need to be said”. He is stating his opinions and from what I gather is attempting at starting a dialogue and forums to have people communicate with each other. A place where people can have their boxes ( thoughts) heard and expressed.

    • He’s not a pastor. He’s a Democrat hack and not much more than that. He’s sold his soul to liberal Democrat policies. He’s fired Jesus and hired the DNC.

    • You know. It’s a funny thing Declan. It has been my experience that the fundies who accuse people like John P. of being unBiblical are the ones who ignore the 50 percent of the Bible they don’t like—either that or they are just unaware of it because they do not read their Bibles or do not understand what they read. Everything John wrote in his post has a firm and indisputable Biblical underpinning. If I had the time, which I do not right now, I could get you a scriptural proof text with book, chapter, and verse for every one of them. The thing that troubles me most is that you do not know that, which means you do not know your Bible. That is what I mean when I say that fundies conveniently ignore half of the Bible—nor do they understand the sweep of the Bible as a whole.

      • Your comment about Christians ignoring 50% of the Bible is much like John Pavlovitz’s comments- generalities with no evidence to substantiate. Read John’s blogs about the Bible and Hell, test against Galatians 1, then you will come to th conclusion that he is unsaved. His hatred for conservatism is unbiblical. His hatred for Trump is unbiblical. Much like him you seem to have a dislike for theological conservatives.

          • Charles, one thing is clear when people John P of all sorts of things. They are projecting their own feelings into John. The shoe John offers them fits much too well and they squirm.

            Well, I applaud John P. If we tell an alcoholic he is an alcoholic, then those words will never leave his mind and hopefully he will seek help. So too John P speaks the truth and they can never unhear it. Hopefully they will seek help.

        • So what. A majority of the Christian world has no respect for so-called “Christian conservatives.” I am a member of The United Methodist Church and glad of it. If you do not like that, then go piss in your own boots—bunch of self-righteous Bas**ards is all you people are—and Jesus is just your front man that you hide behind.

    • Here’s my problem. The problems he describes in the Conservative movement…exist. I left my church because of all the Conservative groups they supported and I have a big problem with many and their attitudes.

    • Declan,
      Hi there. I would like to share my opinion and experience with you. Please know that I am sincere and do not mean to sound rude or harsh.

      Please read this previous post
      http://johnpavlovitz.com/?s=Ocean

      Every post I’ve read by him is centered around this sentiment, which many people experience daily. I understand that many do not, primarily heterosexual, white, Christian males.

      But just because it isn’t your experience, doesn’t mean it lacks truth. It is a very lonely place to be when those around you condemn you for not believing as they do and The Cherry Pickers Bible is used against the person God made you. Many are filled with judgement and feel righteous for it despite And John is there to comfort warning to be mindful of ourselves before casting judgement on others to avoid hypocrisy. So why is it the rules apply to only some sinners? Why do so many conservative evangelicals complain as if the people receiving government benefits are stealing from their pockets when Jesus clearly and repeatedly said we should help those who need help and give beyond that?

      A pastor can make his mouth say anything, but living it, teaching by example is the tricky part. Every day I see multiple examples of conservative people being incredibly ruthless or condescending while hiding behind their faith. John is the only pastor I’ve seen who addresses it candidly, and it helps “heathen” liberals be better Christians. The negative generalizations John uses aren’t made up, in fact, when I come across a conservative evangelical that offers positive conversation/feedback I feel as though I’ve encountered a unicorn. Most liberal people have gotten so used both direct attacks and passiveagressive attacks coming from conservative evangelicals that it has become a minor irritation like traffic, but for some, it turns them away from God. This post isn’t “unbiblical”. It’s what we experience daily. He is showing the ridiculousness of the situation, the absurdity of what conservative evangelicals have beat into our brains during this election, no citation is needed. John emulates Jesus in that he opens his heart and his arms to all people, not just those that Trump doesn’t think are stupid, liars or losers. He doesn’t fill his flock with only those he feels are worthy, but all who are searching for peace, love, acceptance or the light. He makes himself available, isn’t afraid to say “I don’t know, and I’m willing to bet more people walk with Christ because of John’s patience, his flaws and his unconditional love that allows us to be who we are without feeling the shame that conservatives try to smother us with.

      You should be concerned that there is an audience that supports John’s blog and Twitter because people of faith are sending them to him in droves and thank God he’s there with a smile, a hug and a reminder that pastors aren’t perfect and are on the same journey we are.

    • Dear John, I’ve recently acquired interest in your writings and you seem to move me and touch my heart in few ways many others have. I know and understand where you are coming from in my own writings and battles with those I disagree with.
      On this I truly and heartfeltly disagree. We need God and the belief in Jesus now more than ever it would appear. Only God s love and mercifulness will be able to get us through what we are about to engage.
      This is a testament of how much we need his guidance and love to help keep each other safe.
      I can’t give up. I believe in God always and choose God, always over evil. Even if evil appears to have the upper hand.
      I am ignorant with most of the teachings of the Bible. But I do know is to treat each other with kindness. Try to understand the what and whys of those that differ.
      I will agree that Trump is in strong competition for the role of Messiah. But he will ultimately fail, for the clear and simple fact that there is only one God. Our Lord gave his only son, which was made from pure love, sacrificed his only son. Trump however has sacrificed nothing.
      I need God and Jesus now more than ever. I need his strength when I am being smacked down by those who feel superior. Granted it’s hard for me to turn the other cheek. God armours me. He protects me. If I fail in my human form…He will use my spirit in a much stronger force. I will always love and need God in my corner. We as humankind can and will get past this evil. Fellow Christians…Make no mistake…We are indeed facing challenging times. Just remember…God is always on how side. On that there is no question. So…I will continue to keep the candidate with the most experience in dealing with Evil. Mr. Trump doesn’t stand a chance.

        • I think you might be referring to me. Yes, I know John is being satirical. So what! If he believes that Trump is “Evil,” then not only is he being a nut, but he also lacks true faith. John 8:7: Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”

          • Robert. We are all evil—including Trump. Jesus said so. The problem with Trump is that he is mentally unbalanced and especially evil—and Jesus himself would tell you so if he were here on this blog.

        • Charles I realize what John meant as I stated in my retort. I was simply expressing my need for God and having Jesus in my life. No pink slip from me. I need them both.

    • You have the right to your opinions. Try not to be so judgemental. He is simply expressing his opposition against someone who is truly evil. Where do you find your strength?

  4. Dear John, I’ve recently acquired interest in your writings and you seem to move me and touch my heart in few ways many others have. I know and understand where you are coming from in my own writings and battles with those I disagree with.
    On this I truly and heartfeltly disagree. We need God and the belief in Jesus now more than ever it would appear. Only God s love and mercifulness will be able to get us through what we are about to engage.
    This is a testament of how much we need his guidance and love to help keep each other safe.
    I can’t give up. I believe in God always and choose God, always over evil. Even if evil appears to have the upper hand.
    I am ignorant with most of the teachings of the Bible. But I do know is to treat each other with kindness. Try to understand the what and whys of those that differ.
    I will agree that Trump is in strong competition for the role of Messiah. But he will ultimately fail, for the clear and simple fact that there is only one God. Our Lord gave his only son, which was made from pure love, sacrificed his only son. Trump however has sacrificed nothing.
    I need God and Jesus now more than ever. I need his strength when I am being smacked down by those who feel superior. Granted it’s hard for me to turn the other cheek. God armours me. He protects me. If I fail in my human form…He will use my spirit in a much stronger force. I will always love and need God in my corner. We as humankind can and will get past this evil. Fellow Christians…Make no mistake…We are indeed facing challenging times. Just remember…God is always on how side. On that there is no question. So…I will continue to keep the candidate with the most experience in dealing with Evil. Mr. Trump doesn’t stand a chance.

  5. Brilliant! Well done, John! You are coming to the fore as a sharp-cutting, witty satirist. I enjoyed reading this. There are some in those afore-mentioned genres that still believe they believe in Jesus, but, of course, since He’s been fired, it’s not the real Jesus they believe in any longer, though they cannot see that and utterly refuse to accept it. Denial is a very strong blinder.

    • Isn’t the job of a pastor to save souls? How does his constant put-downs of Christians who don’t vote for his candidates accomplish that?

      Shouldn’t he be working for the DNC instead?

      • How do you save souls when you can’t see the person?

        Hell isnt the way to save…yet people use it all the time.

        I have a very hard time with Christians who stated compassion, human dignity, and civility didn’t matter since they voted for Trump.

    • See-e-e-e-e-e-e-e. Jem home schools some kids in his family. He knows satire when he sees it. He actually sat through a college English course and learned something. I bet he has also read his Bible—and unlike the fundies—Jem knows that “the written law kills.” He probably also knows that it no longer exits for anyone except the Jews—-or as the Nazis would say: “Duh Juice.”

  6. Sadly, this becomes reality when so many Christians view faith and discipleship as agreeing to a series of intellectual statements about God and Faith as opposed to following in the footsteps of their Master.

    • Why do you suppose he is so obsessed with pointing out how evil other Christians are, but doesn’t have any positive message of his own? It’s always so negative.

      What is he FOR? What do we need to do to get to Heaven? How can we overcome our additions to our sins?

      Why can’t a Christian vote for their choice and move on without being harangued and harassed for not being a Liberal Democrat?

      The election has been over for over a month. Isn’t it time to discuss spiritual matters instead of a never-ending sore-loser rant. This is a very strange kind of Christianity.

      • Because if you know Jesus’ teachings-it’s a liberal outreach, not conservative.

        Jesus doesn’t call for us to be comfortable or for us to all be wealthy with material items. Point out and discriminating against gay people doesn’t make you any more holy or excuse your own sin.

        This election divided us…I can honestly say many of us feel like we can’t trust anyone anymore. This is the first election I have ever felt like ripped a divide across the nation. This isn’t good.

        • Yes. If it were not for Jesus and my children, I would commit suicide next Friday at noon. I think it is that bad—and it is going to get far worse.

          But you know what? The only regret I have is that I will not get to see the look of terror on the faces of American conservatives when the nuclear weapons start falling in a war that could have been avoided if a certain Walking Cheeto had been polite, smart, stayed calm, and worked the problem like John and Bobby did in 1962.

          I also regret that I will not get to see the looks on the faces of Leslie and the other fundies when Jesus does not intervene in their “hoped for” cataclysm and their sorry asses burn up in the nuclear firestorm—the moment they discover that the Rapture they were so sure would come does not come.

          Or maybe I would like to see the looks on their faces as their small intestines rot out from 500 REM radiation exposure and they control across the ground like the zombies in The Walking Dead crying out “Jesus!!! Jesus!!! Where are you?” I’ll tell you where he is—waiting in Heaven to kick your asses and kick them good for supporting Trump when you know doggone well that the Bible is opposed to people like Trump—and you too by the way.

    • This is the point John P. made a number of posts ago. The fundies have bilked the people of the United States into believing that the entirety of the Christian faith is the following and nothing else but:

      Sin of man + Repentance + Jesus = Salvation

      This is indeed a vital portion of the Christian faith—but there is so much more to it all than just that and that alone—and Jesus and the other New Testament authors make that abundantly clear to anyone who knows how to read the Bible with sunglasses.

      John P. is not denying the math formula above. He understands it. The purpose of his blog is to remind his readers of the other 95 percent of the whole Gospel message that the Christian fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals either downplay or totally ignore.

      Fundie 5 percent + John P. 95 percent = Whole Gospel

      This is not fantasy. All you have to do is go and read your Bibles—either that or you are dumber than dirt. Which is it?

  7. I shudder for the quality of education people are receiving if they do not recognize satire. Satire does not have to be true and does not need references. Like parables, satire points to the truth. Satire can be uncomfortable and it is through that discomfort that thought is encouraged. Satire does not necessarily lead everyone to the same conclusion as each of us taps into our own life experiences.

    • Satire or tongue in cheek comments are best used when after the joke to clearly point to the truth, that detail is absent. Todays post on My Utmost for His Highest – “What My Obedience To God Costs Other People” the very last line of the short article is.
      Beware of the inclination to dictate to God as to what you will allow to happen if you obey Him. Complete surrender and complete honor to God, not that God can not take a joke, God is so pure, perfect and loving that making such a joke is not offering the honor due to our King Lord Jesus, may I spend my time reading to know you more and keep me from material that is not lifting up your name Jesus

      • And yet…

        Conscientious objection as evidenced in John P’s blog has been a Christian responsibility ever since Jesus’ followers were asked to sacrifice to Roman gods. I doubt even St. Paul would have expected Christians to submit to the authority and worship in an idolatrous manner.

        Christians resist evil, pure and simple. We don’t submit to evil.

        • Well said Gloriamarie ! We can support our government but not worship it and because we live in a free society Trump is not the ruler over America he is a public servant. I am sure the admonishments of Jesus, Paul and other Apostles would dramatically change if they lived in this day and age. In fact our world would blow their minds ! haha

  8. Better tick the box for follow ups as no doubt some to the right wingers will be adding to the trash that needs sifting. What’s with the site comments. I think the trolls have taken them over as now it won’t post! Lol!

  9. Joe, Declan and Robert,
    Where are your words of support and understanding for a person who seems to be hurting and in fear of what he believes to be true? Where are your words of comfort and healing? Where is your Christian compassion? To dismiss another’s feelings and insinuate that they are not allowed to have them is detrimental to a positive social environment. Let’s strive for a positive social environment.

    • In order to give a proper response to your Qs I need more data on the hurt and fear.

      I will say this we must take our feelings and emotions before the cross and test them against the Word of God. If this is about the election no Christian should feel distressed if their hope is in Jesus.

      John fosters an environment of feelings and emotional responses that is unbiblical. We have the helmet of salvation and as Christians are to be the right thinking people not swayed by emotions.

          • Charles, please don’t call people names. Let that be the purview of the trolls. Please don’t sink to their level. Remember what Michelle Obama said.

            Although you are quite correct. God created human emotion and called it good.

            • I’m just frustrated with these fundies because their skulls are so thick and impenetrable. They pride themselves on being immovable just like the Scribes and Pharisees. If I ever get to Heaven, I hope Jesus will let me see the moment when he doe to a fundie what Paul does to the Benijez priestess in this movie clip:

              • Do you think you are honoring your God with your hatred of other Christians? That is all you fundies do—hate—hate—hate. You are the most negative and hateful people I have ever known. As for my course language, it is the language people like you DESERVE. It is in the dictionary for a reason.

                • You’re blind as a bat. I have not seen one good thing said about other Christians by your beloved blog host. Nothing but derogatory remarks for them, except for that very tiny sect that have been misnamed “progressive christians.”

                  • What’s the big deal? We need to examine ourselves. The herald of the Book of Revelation is ” He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches”

                    are we weak? are we self satisfied? do we think we are rich when we are poor? are we wretched? Those are the kinds of things we need to have pointed out.

              • Declan, not everything is in the Bible. Do you only feel empathy after you have gathered the all the data? I usually can’t help but feel for someone even those who dislike me or insult me I still feel bad when they are suffering.

      • As a Christian I can be distressed if I feel my brothers and sisters in Christ do not value me or will defend me.
        My faith in Christ hasn’t changed…my trust in the family of Christ has….

          • The voice of dissent is a joyous thing.

            If I push you aside,
            it is only because you have spent your time on the barricades and now it is my turn.

            Rest and let others,
            even enemies in speech,
            guard you against the monsters.

            Rest because the monsters are relentless and one day soon I may need your sharp mind and steady hand.

            Not one soul should be alone on the barricades.

            No voice should be stilled due to the lack of vigilance and dedication of us others.

            To the barricades! This is everyone’s fight!

  10. Dear John P,

    While tragic, this does indeed need to be said.

    While divisive, this does indeed need to be said.

    While this is going to bring the trolls out like the cockroaches they are, this does indeed need to be said.

    This post also points out how there are those on this blog and in the churches who have embraced evil because only evil votes for the evil that is the GOP and the walking cheeto. And anyone who voted third party by default also voted in evil.

    • Almost everyone at my church voted for Trump, yet we still have a crucifix with the body of Jesus and not that of Trump, we still receive the Body and Blood of Jesus at Communion and not that of Trump, the head of our Church, the Vicar of Christ, is still the Pope, and not Trump, the Ten Commandments are still those given from God to Moses and not new commandments from Trump.

      Politics is not our religion. It’s not that of the other Christian churches either, with the exception of those who call themselves “progressive christians,” but that’s not real Christianity.

      It’s mean and cruel to refer to a person as a “Cheeto.” You sadly seem to have a mean and ungracious streak in you.

      • Why is it so mean, cruel, and ungracious for people to call him Cheeto and yet it is okay for him to not only call anyone that disagrees with him all kinds of names but to insult them otherwise? Now, please don’t assume that I am okay with him being called that name just because I am asking what the difference is here?

      • I think “Walking Cheeto” is colorful. Does anyone here seriously think the Christians being persecuted by Rome did not have some choice private names for the Roman Emperors doing the persecutions?

      • No more than the nastiness directed at Obama and his family the last eight years.

        The last church I tried to attend told me how he was going to convince me that Republican was the only way to vote as a Christian. The group around him laughed and I met his gaze…arching an eyebrow.

        This election has alienated Americans from each other. Let’s not pretend people should get over feeling alienated and ignored and move on. Please.

        • Fed UP, and your answer is to be as nasty as the ‘haters’ from 8 years ago? They were wrong then.

          I fully admit I wasn’t a fan. I felt he was too junior for the position ~ he hadn’t even finished his first term in the US Senate. In contrast, Hillary had more experience … but the Democrats didn’t pick her. John McCain had more experience, but the American public didn’t pick him either … so, Barack Obama was our POTUS.

          Now we have Donald Trump, who has NO political experience … except experience wasn’t a deciding factor in Barack Obama’s run for the White House in 2008 either so …

  11. John,
    I understand where you are coming from, I really do. I have been on the outside of Christianity almost my entire life as an atheist, agnostic and at times pagan. I have seen first hand the cruelty of conservative christianity and it is heartbreaking; but it is not new, neither is it unique. It does however serve a purpose. Without false prophets and leaders there can be no sorting of the wheat and chaff, the sheep and goats. I do understand your desire to stand up against this ideology but I am concerned that you have been ensnared by it and distracted.
    Yes there is truth in the words you write, however they have made their pact and sealed their fate now I implore you to use your skill and turn your voice to the encouragement of the oppressed, to the teaching of true Discipleship of Christ Jesus, to love, mercy, and justice for all God’s people. Be a light in a dark and dying world, teach us how to love and pray for those who would do us harm. Do not let them define who you are and what you believe.
    Charles

      • It was friggin’ awesome!

        Finally the liberal press was put in its proper place.

        Business will not be as usual under Trump, thank God.

        • Joe, are you not disturbed that he refused to answer a direct question regarding Russia and his campaign and then abruptly ended the news conference? Regardless of policy or party, I do not want Russia or any foreign power manipulating our candidates or elections. You find his refusal to disavow Russia “frigging awesome”?

  12. That was fun, John.

    Too bad other readers don’t understand where you are coming from. Love the satire!
    The truth is that “Jesus” has been used and used and used for everything imaginable from his original purpose of teaching that God dwells in every human to every kind of ruse for power, money and control.

      • I would bet money far more women may enter the kingdom of God who have had abortions than those who oppose and shame women.

        Maybe instead of using the law…we learn compassion.

        • Even abortion doctors who killed thousands of babies can make it into Heaven.

          Here’s such a story:

          I opened up the womb, tore the placenta, the birth waters flowed out, and I got to work on the inside with my abortion forceps. I grabbed something, crushed it a little, removed it, and threw it onto a cloth. I look, and I see a hand – quite a large hand. The child was 3, perhaps 4 months old. I had no tape to measure it.

          At three months, a preborn baby is fully formed with fingers and toes. All of the organs and body systems are present. The baby has fingerprints, and breathes amniotic fluid in preparation for life outside the womb. Adasevic goes on to say:

          Someone had spilled some iodine on a part of the table and the hand fell in such a way that the nerve endings came in contact with the iodine. And what happened? I look and I say, “my God, the hand is moving by itself.” I nevertheless carry on with my forceps, and again catch something, crush it, and pull it out. I think to myself, “let it not be a leg.” I pull, and look. A leg.

          I want to put the leg on the table, carefully, so that it isn’t near the moving hand. As my arm falls, I hear a bang behind my back. I jumped, and automatically, my grip on the forceps loosened. At this very moment, the leg completed a somersault and fell next to the hand.

          I look – both hand and leg are moving by themselves. I nevertheless, once again, direct my instrument into the womb, and begin to crush everything inside. I think to myself that all I need to complete the picture is the heart. I continue to crush, and crush, and crush, and till I am sure that I have ground everything inside into a pulp, and once again pull out the forceps.

          As I pull out the mess, thinking it will be bone fragments I lay it on the cloth, I look, and I see a human heart, contracting and expanding and beating, beating, beating. I thought I would go mad. I can see that the heartbeat is slowing, ever more slowly, and more slowly still, until it finally stops completely. Nobody could’ve seen what I had seen with my very own eyes, and be more convinced than I was — I had killed a human being.

          http://liveactionnews.org/abortionist-performed-40000-abortions-becomes-pro-life-activist/

          But we who know better don’t have to repeat his sins and errors do we?

          • Abortion was around even when it was illegal. The attitudes of those in the 1800’s was that it was a misdemeanour.

            In 1844 Maria Bodine, a 26-year-old unmarried servant girl, found herself pregnant by her boss, Joseph Cook. He sent Maria to see the infamous Madame Restell, whose advertised services included the sale of “Female Pills: an infallible regulator of ****** [menses]. They must not be used when ********[pregnant].” The many ads like this claimed the medicines would alleviate menstrual symptoms but were understood to mean that they’d end an unwanted pregnancy. The concoctions were made variously of tansy oil, pennyroyal, rue, ergot, perhaps opium, and had dangerous side effects (damage internal organs, seizures, death) but in correct doses were sometimes effective in causing miscarriage. If not, Madame promised “safe and immediate removal of all irregularities in females, with or without medicine, from whatever cause, at one visit.” These ads were perhaps the first publicly available information women had about the possibility of family planning.

            In the 1800s, unmarried pregnant girls like Maria were in deep trouble. Religious ideas about sin held that a woman’s “virtue” was ruined if she had sex outside of marriage. Thus disgraced, a woman had few options if her “seducer” refused to marry her. Often she was banished, forced to live apart from family and community. This was an era when birth control was not widely available or reliable. Women could not vote, own property, or control their own money. (They could also be committed to an insane asylum on the say-so of a man[1]). Countless ‘fallen’ women—who’d been raped, or jilted by their lovers—had to resort to prostitution to make ends meet. Prostitutes lived an average of about four years, falling victim to violence and venereal disease. As for surrendering a child for adoption, in the mid-1800s, there were 30,000 homeless children[2] living on New York streets, and no reliable foster care or orphan asylums. Maria Bodine was in dire straits. Could Madame help her?

            Restell suggested Maria board with her and have the baby, for, in addition to offering birth control information and devices like the “female syringe,” Restell delivered babies, and helped place infants for adoption. But Maria could not afford boarding fees and Mr. Cook would not support a child. She chose to have an abortion. As with childbirth, there was no anesthesia in those days stronger than a shot of whiskey. “I was in great agony all the night,” Maria later testified. “Madame slept with me. In the morning…I took a great flooding. [Madame] told me to have patience, and I would call her mother for it.” When it was over, Restell brought her tea and crackers, gave her a dollar for travel and a kiss, before sending her on her way.[3]

            Abortion in the early 1800s was considered a misdemeanor until “quickening,” the time when a woman felt a fetus’ movements. But it was difficult to prove that a woman had terminated a pregnancy, and women were not lining up to confess. The only reason there is a record of Maria’s experience is because she felt unwell, went to a (male) doctor, and was made to accuse her ‘seducer’ Joseph Cook, and Madame, who were both arrested. Cook denied he knew Maria, claimed he was a victim of extortion, and was never prosecuted. But Restell’s resulting trial sparked headlines, riveting the city. In court, the lawyers, judge, jury, and journalists were all men. Maria was viciously cross-examined on the witness stand. Restell’s lawyers, to defend their client, said Maria was not to be trusted, for “as regards women, when they part with their chastity…no reliance can be placed in her that loses it.” Maria was called a “foul, corrupt, loathsome, guilty a thing as ever polluted God’s blessed earth by her pestilential presence.” Listening to this invective, Maria collapsed in the courtroom.

            http://www.elle.com/life-love/a14570/abortion-in-the-19th-century/

  13. Thank you for speaking for me. My husband and I spent 40 yrs serving the church, he as a pastor and I as his mate, and have felt that I don’t recognize it anymore. I do not call myself a “christian” anymore because it labels you as part of this group, and I believe that you are who you associate with and they are playing with bigots, racists and more. I am a follower of Jesus Christ, and try to follow all of his instructions, some days I do better than others, not those cherry picked to support my hatred or fear or try to make a few bucks off. I feel encouraged that I am not the only one who sees what these hating money grubbers have done to the message. Keep them coming. This is keeping my sanity.

  14. This may be the season when the Church wakes up and realizes that she has strayed from true worship and has been taken in by a pretender. This could be the moment that is needed to revitalize commitment to Christ — no more coasting in the pews! Real relationship him is the only answer to these times. Praying and seeking change, and praying that it begins within me.

  15. One of the ways I am resisting the evil that is this incoming administration is by embracing compassion more deeply than I ever have.

    All are invited to the Compassion Reading Group on Facebook. Trolls are not welcome.

  16. Oh, John, I’m so sad as I read what you wrote and see so much truth in the midst of the satire. You have given me so much hope by your writings since I discovered your blog after the election, for here I have realized I’m not alone. Also, your writing has motivated me to reach out to other blogs — Dan Rather and Bill Moyers, for example — which has also brought me out of the protective bubble in which I lived. As I have reached out I have also been motivated to follow the teachings of Jesus in which I believe — to confront evil by putting myself in a position where I can speak for and help protect those whose voice is being silenced and who are being victimized by this culture that has been unleashed by the president-elect and his chosen administration. I am answering the call that President Obama made in his farewell address to be active as a citizen of the USA and in this way I can be one of the many followers of Jesus who are helping to bring the Kingdom of God into our world.
    Joe Catholic, you are wrong when you think you can separate your religious self from your political self. When you give yourself to God, you give your whole self. God is the guide you look to for every decision and action you take — religious, political, personal. If this is not the case, then you are following some self-made god that only helps feed your ego and your self-serving belief system.

  17. John, I love you! I love that you have the courage to say stuff that needs to be said. And I love the stuff you say. You have tons of credibility and thus, influence. I appreciate the creative way you have highlighted how so many American Evangelical Christians espouse views that are contrary to the heart of our Messiah; however, comma I would like to encourage you to use your voice even more to rally and to encourage the American Evangelical Christians who have not fired Jesus. A lot of us are fighting the temptation to hate the haters. If we succumb to that temptation, then we really have fired Jesus. Some elements of American Evangelical Christianity may have given Jesus His walking papers but other elements of American Evangelical Christianity have torn them up. We need your voice, John, don’t give up on us!

    • It is refreshing to read an American evangelical Christian who gets what Joh P writes. Thank you, Greg.

      Back in the day when I was an American evangelical Christian, most of us thought and spoke as John P. In my neck of the woods, though, Reformed theology began to replace evangelical theology and I ceased to identify as an evangelical because Reformed theology us exclusionary. People claiming to be Christians were ceasing to love all of their neighbors as themselves.

    • Greg, as a Catholic, some of this Evangelical-bashing is very puzzling to me. You say that they espouse views that are contrary to the heart of our Messiah? What would those views be?

      Are you also of a mind that a Christian is not a Christian if they vote Republican? Is it necessary to embrace the Liberal Democrat platform in order to be a true Christian (from your perspective)?

      • An American Journey of Ambition, Ego, Money, and Power
        These stories are based on reporting for “Trump Revealed,” a broad, comprehensive examination of the life of the Republican president-elect. The best-selling biography, written by Post reporters Michael Kranish and Marc Fisher in collaboration with more than two dozen Post writers, researchers and editors, was published by Scribner on Aug. 23. An updated paperback edition published Jan. 10

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/trumprevealed/?wpisrc=ad_trumprevealed_promo&wpmm=1

      • Well Joe—just in case you are not aware of it—Christian fundamentalism and conservative evangelicalism are sworn enemies of the Roman Catholic Church. You may think this is an “all Protestant” thing—but it is not. They are rabid Catholic haters. I have heard the sermons. I have heard they way they are put down in private conversations. Yes, they are helping you on the abortion issue, but if they ever get the political power they seek, you can rest assured that they will hang ever last one of you in one way or another.

        • I think that varies according to the denomination. I know there are Protestants who swear Catholics are not Christians and who would shun a friend if he converted to Catholicism. Still, I feel much more of a bond with them than I would with progressive Christians, even if the feeling is not mutual.

          I don’t believe they intend us any harm or would use the law to do so.

          But you haven’t answered the question I posed. It seems to me that the progressive Christian doctrine is simply whatever is politically correct with Liberal Democrats and therefore anyone who believes in Republican principles politically speaking, from your perspective is a heretic, since you can’t separate politics and religion.

          • The desire of human being is to grow and learn. God must have put that desire within us. Therefore I see the progressives as trailblazers. They want to mature in the faith and the conservatives are the map keepers with the compass and they want to be solid in the faith.

            The problem is the map is incomplete and the conservatives don’t want to go anywhere and the trailblazer want to explore new territory.

            The conservatives think the map is all there is to the world and because they are the holders of the map they ascribe themselves special powers and ability to read the map.

            Being conservative is good if you share the map with others and point people in the right direction. And, possibly that map which is 2,000 years old needs some updating.

            That’s how I see it.

  18. Nice work, John! You nailed it! Hey, if you’re going to follow the trend and treat everything like a business, all that do-gooding has to go–it’s bad for the bottom line. Keep the symbols around, since people recognize them, but it’s OK to ignore all that mush the Founder said so long ago. Times were different then, you know, and “caring for the least of these” and “doing unto others” won’t fly in today’s market.

    Sell ’em a catchy message. Make it easy, make it cheap, make it entertaining, so they’ll put their money in our pockets. Scare ’em a little–scare ’em a lot–and they’ll keep coming back, too worried to go somewhere else. What? Of course this is Christianity! We kept the title. See?

    • Here is a catchy message the ones who live down here in the American South would love:

      “Do unto others as they do unto you.”

      Send them a pie, and they will reciprocate by sending you a pie. Smack one of them on the face, and he will smack you right back. It is as old as the American South itself—and I see it ever day out on the streets:

      “Do that again, and I’ll beat your ass Buford!!!”

      “I go by the Bible. An eye for and eye and a whole mouth of teeth for a tooth.”

      Just ask john P. He knows what I am talking about. He lives down south now too. He knows the rural “Christian rednecks.” Here in East Tennessee, they are called “Rayud Nayucks.” Many of them are not Christians. Many of them are Christians.

      Yeah. The words of Jesus have had a big impact on everyday living down south—-NOT.

      • Yeah, a good many of my relatives in Georgia get that one wrong, too, in just that way. They leave out the crucial bit of the Golden Rule: “Do unto others AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM do unto you.” It’s not a matter of giving back what you get, but of being decent to other people, in advance.

      • Charles, I was born and spent the first 11 years of my life in a segregated Louisiana. You know what was used to justify segregation? Yes, the Bible. You know what was used to justify the laws against racial intermarriage? Yes, the Bible. You know what is used now to justify the subjugation of women? Yes, the Bible. The fundamental religion and the “red necks” are still in denial about who lost the Civil War and they are still chanting “The South will rise again.” It still amazes me that in 150 years of progress in both religious studies and scientific progress that the “South” — including religious fundamentals wherever they live — haven’t progressed past the 1800’s.

  19. John P, GREAT blog. I adore satire because it almost demands for hyperbole and focuses attention in a way that trying to write about the same subject without it does not. You have made your point and made it well.
    In reading the comments, I realize that your blog has also served to separate the wheat from the chaff, as the saying goes. I want to list various points that were introduced:
    1. “I am a Christian” versus “I am a follower of Jesus”.
    They should mean the same thing, but obviously do not. The fact that there are people who would be designated “Christian” by anyone else, but who feel the need to expressly say “Jesus” to mark their very distinct difference is the single best indicator that “Christian” has been co-opted by those who choose to make their religion into a political statement. Who deny basic humans rights to all human beings based on “saved” or “not saved”. Who use their religion to validate greed, discrimination (for all labels), and hate. Who then spout this hate and when chastised by others then claim “religious persecution”. Who deny the freedom of religion to anyone else. (I use the term “neo-christian” [small “c” on purpose] to differentiate from these hateful, hate-filled people who claim Christ to give a reason or to give power to their hate-filled-ness.)
    2. The concept that if you are a Christian AND a Republican, then both are true–BUT if you are a Democrat, you cannot be a Christian.
    This is an obvious fallacy. Either the same types of things can be true together for each side of the situation, or there is no equal comparison.
    3. Witnessing, salvation and redemption as the work of the church.
    The work of the church is found in Matthew 25: 31-36: Feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, welcome the stranger, clothe the naked, comfort the ill and visit those in prison. This is in turn based on the two commandments Jesus gave us: (Matthew 22:37-40: Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”)
    Please note that He never said, “Preach Hellfire and damnation, sin and suffering and offer salvation as the way to be a Christian.” Being saved, believing in Jesus and seeking His Redemption is not the end game. It is the beginning. You are washed in the Blood of the Lamb and made into a new person–a baby in Jesus. NOW is when the work begins; the baby is “fed” the words of Jesus and offered the opportunity to learn the actual WORK of the church, as told in Matthew 25:31-46. The “older” Christians should provide examples of behaving like Jesus and doing the things He had commanded. It’s pretty simple: Love your God, love your neighbor. There was no distinction made about neighbors being only “your kind” or white or black or gay or non-believers. ALL human beings are “neighbors”. Everything else about them is superfluous and does not negate the commandment.
    Those churches who only preach of sin and salvation are needed, but they are not the only–or even the more important of the–work of Jesus. Jesus was so much more than just His death, even more than His resurrection. And out of those two events, only the resurrection really matters, as a signal of His authenticity, if you will. Thousands were killed on crosses, not all of them guilty; his execution was not special. Coming back to life, now *that* was special–but was still only a symbol.
    4. All you need to go to Heaven is to believe in Christ.
    If that were true, many more people would be going. Actual, CHRISTIAN belief in Jesus is so much more than that. To believe in Jesus is to have a motivation, a core reason for your actions. Believing in Him requires that you also believe in what He said and behave in a way that agrees with that belief and in His actions. It is the starting point for doing His work. It is also the basis for your every action and word, to try to meet the expectations of loving God and loving your neighbor.
    The most important part of “loving your neighbor” is to be kind and loving to ALL, not just those who are “like you” or meet your idea of what is “right”. “By their actions, you will know them” may have originally been part of the advice against false prophets, but it is also true as a sign of following Jesus. Matthew 7, the entire chapter, has Jesus’ words about judging (bad) and recognizing evil (good). We’re not supposed to judge others, but a more subtle concept is in the second part of the verse: “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” (If you judge and are unforgiving, you will be judged and not forgiven. Serious concept.)
    In today’s society, the concepts of Matthew 25: 31-36 have been disregarded and in many instances, made illegal, either by force of the law or by society’s own mores (rules). Where are the Christians who are fighting against this disregard, at every level, including the government and political arenas? There are people who are oppressed, suffering, and strangers to our country. Where are the Christians who are helping in any way they can to solve or ameliorate these situations? Even if they do not make the evening news, if ALL Christians, everyone who believes in Jesus, were following His commandments the effect would be visible. Churches raise huge amounts of money for missions and work in other countries. Yes, this money is needed there–but it is also needed just as much here, in our own country. For example:
    1. It is actually cheaper to provide a living space for the homeless than it is to pay for all the emergency room visits they make–sometimes just to get into a warm place. Other homeless people will also commit a “small” crime to go into jail–3 square meals a day and a bed, which also costs the local government.
    2. 25% of children in America do not have food security–they don’t know if they get any food when they are hungry. And yes, lots of them do live at starvation levels. This also increases governmental costs as children who do not receive adequate nutrition do not grow up healthy. They will have all sorts of physical ailments and, almost more importantly, their brains will not grow and function as they should.
    3. Instead of preventing crime by reducing the factors that cause it, the prisons have been made into a “for profit” business. This means that there must be a sufficient amount of prisoners in order for profit to be made–so people are arrested for minor infractions and are punished beyond justice, let alone mercy.
    I could continue with the list, because our problems are not so small as to be easily dismissed. I would suggest that one of the main contributing factors for all of the ills, all of the problems we have as a nation, stem from people who say, “I am a Christian” but do not live the life of Jesus. They have turned away from God and instead worship a different god, the one called “GREED”. Having or wanting money is not the sin–the sin is that the LOVE OF MONEY is the root of all evil. And here we are, with a President-Elect whose whole life has been deeply rooted in having and making more money, with a Cabinet of men and women who also have and want to make money, all of them worshipping at the feet of Greed. And those who through actions or words condone them, are as guilty as they BECAUSE they have chosen to be under the leadership of those who do not worship God and most assuredly do NOT follow the teachings of Christ–because, BY THEIR ACTIONS, YOU WILL KNOW THEM. Their words are lies. When words and actions (past, present or those yet to come) do not match, believe the words.

  20. John P: You have a gift like no other. Keep saying things that need to be said. Why? Because you are saying things that we need to hear. Especially the troll. Maybe, just maybe, he’ll listen to what you are trying to communicate. Maybe, just maybe, he’ll look deeply into the mirror you are holding up. I doubt it but… maybe. Thank you

  21. ** Empathy ~ you mean your utter lack of empathy for anyone who voted for Trump? You have been 100% prejudicial and judgmental toward anyone who did, not listening to their reasons for doing so. No, you were ABSOLUTELY convinced over half the White women in America who bothered to vote were racist, misogynist, homophobic, islamophobic monsters. I now have little doubt you had NO empathy for White men. Neither group trusted Hillary Clinton to be President and that isn’t something you have examined.

    The Christian with an complete lack of empathy is right in front of us and he isn’t taking office on January 20th. He is the man refusing to even consider people had a legitimate reason to vote for Donald Trump. Zero empathy … for over 62 million Americans, John.

    ** Turning the Other Cheek ~ you mean if someone does something you don’t like, you give the the opportunity to either disappoint you, or show you they were worth a second chance? Placing your trust in the Uncertain even when you have reason to believe it could be painful for you? John, do you ever look in the mirror? Perhaps Donald Trump deserves a little ‘turn the other cheek’ as he approaches his duties … instead of a call for Resistance before he’s even started work.

    Before you declare he’s already done something awful, please take into account all the media sources which do want him to fail. They opposed him when he was Candidate Trump, the widely declared Secretary Clinton to be our next President (a lie), and they have not relented in their hostility toward President-elect Trump. I suggest when you read an article, go back over previous articles the author has written on the subject to see if you can find any bias. All too often you can. Sometimes you need to go to ‘news’ sources you might hate to get a different perspective of what is going on though you will have to patch together something closer to the ‘real’ picture.

    ** “Compassion, Diversity, and Equality” vs. “Fear, Exclusion, and Discrimination”.
    I’m not aware of President Trump signing into law a single statute enshrining ‘fear, exclusion and/or discrimination’ ~ undoubtedly because he has both not even started work yet and those are not on his agenda – they are on yours.

    Compassion – I didn’t feel much compassion from the Obama Administration, you know ~ being a White Male. That’s okay, because I didn’t feel any from the G.W. Bush, Clinton, G.H.W. Bush, or Reagan Administrations either. I have never felt it was their jobs to show me compassion as compassion is a HUMAN emotion, not something associated with a bureaucracy.

    Diversity – the clearest sign of how much Barack Obama’s ideals of diversity was felt by America will be elected on Jan. 20th. That is to say – he failed and he failed in a big way. He failed because his diversity was rather exclusionary. It failed White Working Class America as the polls have now shown.

    Before someone says “to the oppressors, equality feels like oppression” ~ that’s a load of crap. By the mid-1990’s we achieved as much equality as we have today. Since 2000 more women have been going to college than men (and the % has only increased). By 2005, minorities owned more of the economy. All that happened without “The White Man” saying a damn thing.

    For the past seven years White men were blamed for EVERYTHING, given credit for nothing and always being told they had to be ashamed of who they were … but this form of racism was ‘A-okay’ with everyone else. Women’s Rights, Children’s Rights, Equal Rights … the very idea of Human Rights are all White Male things.

    An army of women didn’t corner the male army at Yorktown and force their surrender, ya know. A poster once told me “should we be grateful for giving to us 50 years ago what we deserved for several thousand years?” No, and yes. No, because equality is everyone’s due … and yes, because NO ONE ELSE DID IT. Something about the White Christian social and political tradition made us want to correct his grand injustice before any other society ever did.

    We had been wrong all along for the oppression we visited down on the legally less fortunate yet we both realized it and did something about it. The most critical expression of this in our society is the campaign of Hillary Clinton. She lost, but she lost at the ballot box BECAUSE of women, not because she was a woman. Beyond that, we have the plethora of women in High Office in other countries to prove it can and has been done.

    So basically, for the past 7 years, diversity has been a sham. We witnessed re-segregation in neighborhoods, school districts and college dormitories. Minorities needed ‘safe spaces’ from White People … because the accepted message was White People were basically evil thus oppressive and dangerous. That was clearly a model of diversity failing.

    Equality ~ what? Are we going to revisit that fun rumor of Trump and the GOP Congress repealing the 19th Amendment (Women’s Right to Vote)? Maybe the 24th and 26th as well? By all means, what ‘equality’ is under attack?

    Fear ~ well, I imagine if you enjoyed being a professional protester for the past 5 years, things aren’t looking pleasant. If you are an undocumented individual living in the US, you are unhappy as well. There is a LEGAL immigration process for a reason.

    If you are an LGBTQ person … President-elect Trump is a FAN. He waves the ‘Rainbow’ flag proudly. His choice for Secretary of State, one of the most powerful cabinet posts, is pro-LGBTQ as well. I’d worry about Trump dropping dead and Pence taking over, but here is hoping this doesn’t happen.

    If you are a Muslim living in America … you should be more afraid of what you should have been afraid of before November, 2016 – one of your mosque’s members radicalizing and killing folks, not a nation-wide crackdown on people of your faith. Such a move has NO LEGAL basis and would be fought at every turn by a host of agencies. Anything else is fear-mongering from the Left. If you, or your mosque gets attacked, your local police, State Police and the US Justice Department will still investigate it as they would have back in October. It is still their job. It hasn’t changed.

    Undocumented Muslim trying to get into the US … you will have the same problems getting into the US as an undocumented person from Iceland. It is the problem of vetting your ID which is, should have been and, to a degree, has been, the problem. It will remain a problem.

    Exclusion ~ everyone who voted will have some level of representation. Beyond that, you can bet there will be some exclusion and its going on right now – the PRESS. They have shown themselves to be rather biases against the President-elect and his people so you can expect them to be excluded at every turn. That means more ‘tweets’. Is anyone else going to be excluded? Why would they be? Seriously? We will most likely see those who refuse to cooperate with the new Administration, but that is on them, not Trump.

    Discrimination ~ I’m sure if you are a violent member of BLM, or a member who incites to violence you are going to think you are being discriminated against. To the rest of us this will be justice at work. A lot of people are tried of targeted police murder, riots and arson all in the name of your cause.

    We are tired of police shooting unarmed Black men too. The problem is Michael Brown and Eric Gardner were lousy examples for the cause. Worse, Baltimore immediately responded to the Freddy Gray crisis and the Black community still rioted. What did President Obama and AG Eric Holder do? Yep.

    **John, at some point you might want to consider some folks of faith feel certain jobs are for the government and others are for those of faith – such as charity. There is a Christian belief one is made righteous through toil. To give into sloth, or promote it, is evil. Right, or wrong, it how they feel. Personally, I feel God speaks through acts of Love and Compassion, but I hold that to be my personal interpretation of his mission for me, not the entire World.

    ** Considering the high number of Evangelicals who support the Nation of Israel … really?

    If you want to play the if Jesus was alive today game ~ had he and his parents survived their trip to Egypt (being Jews and all), he would have been told to serve in the IDF. His pacifistic ways would have got him in trouble no doubt. Most likely, at one of his large gatherings later on, an Islamic terrorist would have detonated their suicide vest, killing hundreds of his followers. I’m taking for granted someone God would have kept his Son alive.

    Most likely he would have traveled to Syria with his message of Peace, Love and Universal Brotherhood. If the Assad Regime didn’t kill him, I’m sure one of the numerous other Muslim factions would have. Perhaps ISIS would have burned him alive in a cage. What is certain is the one country in the Middle East which wouldn’t have murdered him is Israel.

    By all means ignore Trump and his allies are rather pro-Israel while Hillary and hers were pro-Every Other Islamic Regime in the Region. Democracy vs. Autocracy … but just gloss over that reality because it is not over here.

    ** And that pretty much sums this up; yet again you are selectively ignoring parts of reality which you find unfortunate, uncomfortable, or counter-narrative to your message of what makes you “the Good Guy” and “Everything Trump” evil.

    To me, the worst parts are the utter lack of empathy and your use of ‘turn the other cheek’ when you seem incapable of utilizing that principle.
    Q: “Give Trump a chance?”
    LSP: “NO! He is irredeemably EVIL!!!”
    Q: “Huh? Have you turned the other cheek?”
    LSP: “No … Trump is evil.”
    Q: “Have you tried to understand why 62 million people voted for Trump?”
    LSP: “No … because Trump is evil.”
    Q: { shakes head and recalls events 8 years earlier}

    Q: “Give Obama a chance?”
    CSP: “NO! He’s an evil socialist from Africa!!!”
    Q: “But there is clearly proof he is not. Give him a chance.”
    CSP: “No … Obama is Evil.”
    Q: “You are just saying that because he’s Black, aren’t you?”
    CSP: “No, I’m not! He’s Kenyan … and Keynesian … and raised by Bill Ayers too!!!”
    Q: {shakes head … and looks forward 8 years}

      • {carefully examines Recovering RC’s comments}

        {weighs the commentary … seems a bit lightweight … really, really light}

        {no further response necessary}

        {carry on … nothing to see here}

  22. I’m just curious what the readership of this blog would make of the statement: He who will not work should not eat.

    Any comments?

    • Zak. People of able body and mind should work for a living. Those who cannot for various legitimate reasons should not work for a living. Regardless, I am not going to let anyone starve to death—and if Uncle Sam wants to strip your pockets bare to make sure no one starves to death—I will just stand there and smile—because people with your heartless attitude and mindset DESERVE to have their pockets stripped bare. It would not surprise me at all to see Jesus come to you and personally strip your pockets bare.

      How’s that A_Hole.

        • No. It is just fine. What I disagree with is the way your heart looks at it and understands. You think everyone on food stamps is a lazy loafer who should be cut off and go hungry. That is not true in this world or the next. You are just a cruel person trying to twist the Bible to justify the cold heart within you.

          • You think everyone on food stamps is a lazy loafer who should be cut off and go hungry.

            Where did I say that?

            And, for that matter, are you really that small-minded that the only options you can imagine are “government handouts” and “going hungry”? Are there, just possibly, other possibilities out there for some of these people?

            You are just a cruel person trying to twist the Bible to justify the cold heart within you.

            You really are quite speedy to ascribe hatred, cold-heartedness, and every other imaginable evil to those you disagree with. Have you considered the idea that maybe, just maybe, they want people to thrive as well, but prefer a different means? Have you considered the idea that, just possibly, they think your plans don’t work and are doing much more harm than good?

            But no. I apologize. That’s simply not possible. Anyone who doesn’t agree with you is just seething with bigotry and hatred and violence and society would probably be better off with all of us in the ground. Right?

            • Zaklog, Considering food is a necessity to life I would not use it as a form of discipline under any circumstance. I know this statement is trying to address laziness but if access to food were free and it was only someone’s laziness that prevented them form eating, then it would the fault of the individual themselves, if they went hungry. As well, the more people hunger the less energy they have and the weaker they are, not only physically but mentally. People who are sick or mentally ill or in some way unable to find viable work due to some disability need help to access the necessities of life. A simple statement such as “He who will not work should not eat.” does not address the complex economy and social composition America currently has.

              • if access to food were free and it was only someone’s laziness that prevented them form eating, then it would the fault of the individual themselves, if they went hungry.

                If “access to food” were free, this statement would never have been made in the first place. Is this genuinely the best analysis you have to offer? Geez, no wonder you’re a leftist. You haven’t got the brains to be anything else.

                  • That is not the question at hand. The question is, what do you think of the prescription, “He who will not work should not eat”?

                    • Do you really think we have the right to make claim to food a necessity of life and use a food as a condition?

                    • @Kathy

                      where do you get your ideas Zaklog the Deplorable?

                      The Bible. Have you ever read it at all? 2 Thess 3:10, in this case. If you don’t understand what that reference means, you could probably ask one of your icky “bigoted” conservative neighbors to explain it to you.

  23. Thanks John. How sad but so true. This is actually what we are telling Jesus by our behavior. I think also of the corporate welfare to the rich. Politicians make laws that they can benefit from while hating to feed the poor. Their health care is top notch while disdaining health care for everyone else. They receive fat checks to do nothing in Congress except fight across the aisles while refusing to raise minimum wages for hard working Americans who can barely afford to feed their families. We are made to pay taxes while they pay none using loopholes designed for and by them. They somehow manage to sleep at night and go to church on Sundays. The evil in their hearts is showing. Wake up America.

    • They receive fat checks to do nothing in Congress except fight across the aisles while refusing to raise minimum wages for hard working Americans who can barely afford to feed their families.

      Perhaps that’s because minimum wage laws create more problems than they solve. Did you ever consider that? Or are you merely a first-stage thinker?

      • The reason the minimum wage exists is because there was once a time when people worked hard all day and their cruel bosses would only pay them 10 cents an hour when they could pay them $1.00 per hour and still be the biggest “fat cat” in town. Joe thinks it is fine for one person to be making 10 cents per hour when everyone else is making $30 per hour. All I can say is this. Not in my business. If i have to do that with my business to get rich, then I would rather not have a business. The people who think Heaven is going to one day honor the people who lived their lives by Accounting 101 rather than the words of Jesus in the Bible are in for a thrashing.

        • Thank you for demonstrating you know nothing at all about economics. Now continue to spray your self-righteous ignorance all over, we don’t have enough of that in the world.

            • Yes, and in Heaven, there is no death. In Heaven, God will wipe away every tear. We are not there yet. Trying to create Heaven on Earth by means of government force, historically, has not ended well.

              • We don’t need to use force we can just do it. Everyone in can in their own way contribute to good. We don’t have to be cynical and give up. Jesus said we can do greater works than him in this life.

                • You’re right. We can do things voluntarily without getting the government involved. What a fantastic idea! Too bad that Charles and Pavlovitz reject this idea out of hand.

        • There are black teens who are idle and getting into trouble because they cannot find work because they have been shut out of the workforce by our coercive economy. Black teens are being hurt by minimum wages.

          People will not be paid one cent per hour if there were no minimum wage. The economy is one big auction and wages and prices find fair balances naturally. Labor is a finite resource. I will not be able to start a business and pay someone a dollar per hour because someone else will gladly pay more and the bidding will continue until equilibrium is reached.

          If you like seeing idle black teens who are getting into trouble but who instead could be learning a skill while making some money which would help out at home, and preparing themselves for better paying jobs, while giving the overall economy a boost, then by all means continue to support government price controls and continue shutting people out of the workforce.

    • Because you’re too weak-minded to effectively deal with dissent and find it easier to simply silence all voices of disagreement?

      • No. It is to keep out disruptors like you and Joe who come into another person’s blog and dominate the discussion to where the primary business of the blog cannot get done. You are not ever going to get that chance over at my place—and my message is getting out to thousands of people undisrupted, and it will continue to do so for decades after I die—or until WordPress goes out of business. Christian fundamentalist and conservative evangelical hatred of their fellow man, other Christians, and the full Gospel of Jesus Christ is not going to get a “free ride” in this life as long as I am here. I am going to be breathing down your neck every inch of your way to Hell—and you can count on it.

        • How nice of you to damn me to Hell on the basis of a few internet comments. It would take rather more for me to even consider doing so to you, but then again, I’m clearly not as holy or righteous as you are.

            • Sample of JPs blog (w/o conservative Christian voices):

              –‘Great blog John!’
              –‘Loved what you wrote. It really touched my heart.’
              –‘You said what I was thinking! It’s so amazing.’
              –‘I wish there were more pastors like you. Your words are beautiful.’
              — ‘I left the church long ago. I really relate to your message.’
              –‘I’m a better person now, since I stopped going to church.’
              –‘Keep up the good work John. We need your voice.’

              • leslie, there are respectful ways of talking to people, in fact you don’t have to make a comment to anyone on this blog at all, you could leave people alone especially those who are hurting or getting some benefit from reading the blog. You could simply respond to John Pavlovitz’s post and to anyone who responds to you.

                I find many of the conservative commenters are looking to pick a fight and tread all over people’s comments, which is why so many do not comment anymore.

                leslie you are a purveyor of weeds. Look at the miserable seeds you have sown on this blog. And you talk about conservatives growing in kindness, gentleness, long-suffering, peace, patience, joy and faithfulness. Look at what you reap here, nothing but strife!

                leslie, you do good works outside of this blog, you have written about them… you have to know you are not doing a good work here.

                • @ Anonymous

                  I find many of the conservative commenters are looking to pick a fight

                  Yup, it’s the conservatives who are starting the trouble around here. There’s no one higher up on the totem pole on this blog constantly issuing insults and belittling “advice”. It’s all those nasty conservatives who are causing dissension.

            • I guess that was a little over the top and being just like you.

              Yes, “just like” me. Tell me, Chucky boy, where have I, damned someone to Hell for not agreeing with my politics? Could you point to it, please? Direct quote would be great.

              I mean, because you’re being “just like” me, you must have some specific instance in mind, surely.

  24. It seems to me that the church has survived good rulers and bad ones. Maybe we should stop trashing Trump and start praying for him. If you like Trump he still needs your prayers. If you don’t like the results of the election we have another one in four years. If it helps remember that Paul told us to pray for those in authority. When he wrote that Nero was in power. Somehow I don’t think Trump will be quite that bad!

    • “Please just give my man Trump a chance—we gave Obama a chance.”

      People like you most certainly did not—they hated him from the day he won the first election to Friday of next week—and every day in between. Why should you then turn around and expect your political enemies to treat you any better than you treated them—because your man is right? Let me give you a tip bud. This country is divided right down the middle 50-50. Each side hates the other side’s guts and everything it stands for. That is just the fact of the matter. Each side is absolutely certain that its side is good, right, and Holy. Each side is going to stand fast. This problem will never go away until either Jesus directly intervenes or one side totally vanquishes the other in a bloody war. The period we are in now is just like the several decades that preceded 1861. What can you do to prevent the next American Civil War?

      • Civil War? Won’t happen for several reasons.

        1) Except for the ‘Atlantic Corridor’, the ‘resistance’ to Trump is geographically isolated to a series of rather isolated urban centers. Sure New York, Las Angeles and Chicago have large police forces except they are needed inside their cities to keep law and order. They are large for that reason.

        In contrast, pro-Trump areas are geographically linked, spanning the entire nation. While various county sheriff’s departments are much smaller, their ability to operate as a cadre for a resistance force is magnified by the sheer number of counties which voted Trump and the number of gun owners in those counties.

        2) There is a general Liberal aversion to firearms while a small, but serious, minority of Conservatives regularly use guns. In the short term, gun-familiarity would be crucial to a resistance.

        3) 25 States are controlled by the Republicans. They have 8 more governors and 7 more legislatures under their control. The Democrats have control of only 5 states with 11 governors and 11 legislatures. The Democrats are strong in the Northeast and West Coast yet they can’t rely on the rural areas to remain loyal if they rebel … so, they are screwed.

        4) A factor which greatly aided the American Civil War was the tiny size of its existing military and its reliance of armed state militias in its earlier military endeavors. When the crisis came, the officer corps split along state loyalties and the existing military wasn’t nearly up to the task of suppressing the initial rebellion.

        Today’s military is very different and the very professional. While it still relies on various reserve units and National Guards centered around geographic locations, their loyalty isn’t really in question when it comes to defending the Republic.

        If a rebellion was declared and local forces couldn’t suppress it, the military could and would do the job. No state forces have the capacity to effectively resist the US military ~ thus no civil war.

        Now, since anyone who could seriously plot a rebellion knows this, they wouldn’t rebel and anyone who ignores this reality isn’t much of a threat … we don’t even get a reasonably 21st century Harper’s Ferry.

          • Okay. The best success for a Civil War lies in the breakdown of the Two Party system and the creation of a new form of unity which threatens the established order.

            Race doesn’t have the dynamism. Religion is too divided. Groups equipped and prone to resist such as the New Black Panther Party, the Sovereign Citizen Movement and the 1% Motorcycle clubs don’t have the numbers. I don’t bring up major criminal syndicates because they are a) tied logistically to certain areas and b) as likely to see a rebellion as bad for business.

            At the start of any rebellion, the Reserves and National Guard will be on the side of the Establishment. The military will be as well. The difference is the Reserves and NG have a slightly better chance of identifying with the rebels given the near perfect set of circumstances.

            The best chance for a Civil War would be hyper-inflation and the sense the Federal and State governments weren’t handling the crisis. That would force businesses (management & labor) to unite as a single force to both protect their livelihoods and marketplace. Other groups would form and new, non-$ economy units would be created [to avoid the crushing taxation]. Eventually whole cities would be working on an advanced form of the barter economy and selling their goods and services to the countryside for food and farther out for resources and energy they don’t personally have.

            The government cracks down. These new communities will have to face the grim reality that either their entire economy goes under (the money the government insists you use is effectively worthless ~ though they will have established wage and price controls much too late), or they fight.

            Unlike previous suggestions of Civil War, this confrontation paints the Federal Government in DC as the Bad Guys for everyone to see while the small towns and cities struggling to survive are the ‘Good Guys’.

            Most certainly the State governments spiral into powerlessness as well as collective enterprises and their assemblies are the new power.

            Absolutely some fringe groups will stick it out over their belief in a political figure, or policy (abortion?). Most will turn locally.

            The military’s problem is the size and scope of the revolt as well over 100 Million take up arms and refuse to pay any taxes. This means small towns in Lubbock, Texas will have common cause with textile plants in NYC.

            Sure they are 2000 miles apart, but if the Army shuts down the store in NYC, the town of Lubbock sends a team of militiamen out to hijack some Army vehicles partaking in an action in Texas, get some prisoners and then want to exchange them for the restoring the business in NYC.

            The revolution is everywhere, the Federal government is worried about paying its people with currency which is worth a damn and fighting what appears to be an extensive war costs a MINT – more than they can easily get their hands on.

            Now, if for five, or six months various large areas in the US are allowed to use an alternate form of economics, not pay taxes and prosper compared to their neighbors who follow Uncle Sam, you now have a Civil War.

        • And yet NRA/ gun manufacturers have used the idea of protecting yourself from government, tyranny, zombies whatever as a sales pitch and a very lucrative one for years.

  25. Ouch. I feel badly that I cannot read all the comments here. I’m sure it’s a good conversation, but in case no one else has pointed this out, the pointed judgement against progressive Christianity or secularism with such blatant disregard for the individual is so out of character for Jon. I fear some of the ugliness may be affecting my profit of choice.

  26. Dear John Pavlovitz:

    I agree entirely. On earlier posts, I’ve said that it is time to stop the debate and recognize that by overlaying heretical political ideology on the cause and cross of Christ, the so-called ‘Christian Right’ has committed apostasy from God.

    But unless our righteousness exceeds that of the apostate Christian Right, we cannot be saved. That’s why the reference to incoming President’s inauguration date was so disheartening.

    Why can’t we recognize that the existing administration is no less opposed to Christ?

    All War, All the Time:

    The Obama administration is the first with two full terms at war. It expanded and continued Bush’ wars with ongoing bloodletting in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, Yemen and now the failed state of Somalia. The drone President oversaw the killing of thousands with UAVs. There is our five year undeclared war against Syria. We snuffed more than a million lives and made refugees of millions more. The ‘Pivot to Asia’ has inflamed tensions from the South China Sea to the Indian Ocean. Even as the President prepares to leave the White House, NATO troops deploy in Eastern Europe as ranking Democratic figures stoke the flames of anti-Russian hatred/war-hysteria.

    NO to Democratic Rights:

    The Obama administration declared in 2011 [by fiat] that it has the authority to perform extrajudicial killings, including the assassination of US citizens. A former professor of constitutional law, President Obama is well aware that under international law, this is a Crime of War against Humanity. He retained the Guantanamo Bay detention/torture center. For exposing our war crimes in Iraq, patriot/hero Chelsea Manning is serving a 35-year sentence. For exposing massive NSA surveillance, Edward Snowden is exiled in Russia under threat of prosecution if not execution if he returns home, while not one figure involved in clearly illegal and unconstitutional action has been prosecuted. In the land of the free and home of the brave, the Obama White House prosecuted more whistleblowers for espionage than all previous administrations combined.

    YES to Social Inequality

    The Obama administration response to the ’08 ‘Great Recession’ prioritized the restoration of the wealth of the ruling aristocracy. Thanks to ‘quantitative easing,’ stock values more than tripled a mere two months after Obama’s inauguration; the 1% was the overwhelming beneficiary of the speculation that followed. This administration gifted the working class with declining wages, rising living costs and growing indebtedness. It also presided over the bankruptcy of auto corporations and imposed across the board 50% wage cuts for new hires. It supported Detroit’s bankruptcy and slashed city worker pensions. Under the banner of educational reform, Obama oversaw waves of school closures and the firing of hundreds of thousands of teachers. Health care costs shifted from corporations to individuals who must pay exorbitant costs for slashed coverage and substandard care. And under Obama’s watch, some 10,000 have died at police hands.

    Where We Stand:

    There is nothing transformative or progressive about the Obama Presidency. Instead, Obama’s Presidency in every respect paved the way for the Trump Presidency. Two, right-wing factions are locked in ferocious conflict while social conflict deepens and the road is paved to class conflict, war and revolution.

    Israel’s prophets critiqued not only foreign nations but also Israel. And prefer the Democratic Party as one may, true prophets will critique their own party as much as their political adversaries. It is only on the strength of the confession of ‘OUR’ sins that we can with any sincerity point to the sins of others.

    So the question real question is, does our righteousness exceed that of the admittedly apostate ‘Christian’ right?

      • Dear Charles:

        Let’s ask ourselves — where and how we resisted these things.

        Charles, it’s easy to vilify the ‘other’ and utilize them as whipping posts on which to punish our own sins vicariously.

        But perhaps we should instead see the ‘other’ as a mirror into which to recognize our own sins and learn to repent.

        One feels the logic of Paul’s point — we who condemn others are guilty of doing the same things!

        How can we ever unite a church [let alone a nation] if we cannot acknowledge this?

        • Fine. Let me see you get the other side to stand down and unite with us. They do not want to stand down and unite. They want us out of the way and silent so they can plow, sow, and grow their evil without any resistance.

          • Dear Charles:

            As I see it, the Christian’s allegiance is with the Kingdom of God. As I see it, that is the only politics allowed the Christian. As I see it, that ultimately pits me against all partisan platforms.

            I’m not sacrificing that. If this means the collapse of the federal state, so be it. As I’ve said, I raise no hand against the state, but neither will I extend one to aid it. Not while it incarnates the very beast/whore/false_prophet relationships I see in the Revelation.

            Blessings!

    • You know my favorite thing about Obama’s presidency, though? All of the racial healing helped bring about. Look at how much better blacks and whites are getting along today than eight years ago.

      • Dear Zaklog the Deplorable:

        The ‘color’ of the officeholder was the ONLY thing that changed. In terms of policy content … well … I spelled out in some detail already the record of ‘change.’

        The GoP ‘hope and change’ candidate will serve his popular base as well as did the last ‘hope and change’ candidate.

        Welcome to more-of-the-same ‘hope and change’ in a less stable, increasingly 1930ish nationalist world.

        • Really? That was all that changed? So tell me, when did George W. Bush deliberately stir up racial tensions? When did he, completely uncalled for, insert himself into an ongoing criminal case for no apparent reason other than to stir up racial tensions?

          • Dear Zaklog the Deplorable:

            You mean that mine of 7:45 pm this evening didn’t name enough issues? If you’re not going to reply to mine — seriously, Zaklog the Deplorable — I really don’t see anything TO which to reply in yours.

            Blessings!

      • Dear Zaklog the Deplorable:

        Oh — I’m sorry! You must feel that ‘conservatives’ are somehow singled out for censure…

        I thought I made it clear that the pseudo-left stands equally condemned. So please don’t feel ‘singled out’ in any way!

    • While I don’t agree with calling people ‘apostate’, I hope gdd’s post sparks some true debate.

      As I have said before, the real legacy of the Obama Presidency is Trump. Without his actions and policies, the electoral confusion which ended up offering us Trump vs. a preordained Hillary Clinton. The idea Hillary Clinton was the “Christian” alternative … ugh.

      Then, I am not a huge fan of ANY religious doctrine dictating the actions of my secular leadership so I approach this debate from a different direction. I don’t vote for a candidate merely because my priest recommends him/her … or a Hollywood star, or YouTube personality. We owe it to our Democratic Republic to inform ourselves and vote in a manner we believe will guarantee our Nation’s freedoms and leave it safe and secure.

      Barring that … we exist in a two-party system dominated by large campaign contributors which doesn’t leave us a grand number of choices. Pretending different is rather foolish.

      • Dear James Dosher:

        I don’t agree with throwing around the term ‘apostate’ myself.

        My use of it here only reflects my conviction that Saint John the Theologian’s imagery of the warrior-beast, luxuriant whore of Babylon, and false prophet becomes ever more relevant to our own culture with each passing year.

        We have witnessed a true ‘slugfest’ campaign in which the very best that our imperious parties of luminescence could produce managed to prostitute themselves and the office to which they aspired before the world.

        If they insist on depicting the institutions and processes of state as legalized prostitution, who am I to disagree? And if the public concludes that the state is a whore, who are they to object?

        In the hope of getting everyone to take a hard look at THEMSELVES, someone has to raise the standard for principled iconoclasm. By joining the 54% of eligible voters who refused to prostitute themselves by voting, I nominate myself for that position. Blessings!

        • gdd, I’m remain firm in my belief government shouldn’t be in the morality business and we shouldn’t expect it to provide moral leadership. It is not an excuse for immoral leadership, or electing corrupt officials. It a declaration we keep morality at a personal level, each person answerable to their own moral code with the compromises we accept for communities and relationships. After all, if we accept we must each behave in a moral way and pass that on in our relationships and communities, why can’t we then have leaders who step forward who also happen to be moral?

      • I have yet to hear a priest recommend a particular candidate. That is almost never done. Voting according to what is the greatest justice is advised, but not particular candidates or parties.

        • Joe Catholic, I have never heard it either, but I have heard many tales of people who have so I brought it up. If I had left it out, I could get slammed with it later. TY.

        • JC aren’t you the one who promoted the Catholics 4 Trump link? And, in this last election many Pastors endorsed Trump. Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell Jr to name a few. When Mitt Romney ran against Obama in the previous election David Jeremiah gave a sermon the week before the election urging his congregation to consider voting for Mitt Romney even though he is a mormon. The Religious right in the USA is extremely political.

        • Dear Joe Catholic:

          That is only as it is supposed to be. No tax-exempt or ecclesial organization has any business advocating for a particular candidate knowing that it is going to claim a tax exemption.

          The conjunction of church/synagogue/mosque/etc. and state does not ‘Christianize/Judaize/Islamize’ the state, but it most assuredly does prostitute the church/synagogue/mosque.

          In a bitter way, James’ [Dosher] view of the secular state is not only correct but serves also as a mildly amusing anecdote where America’s Christagelical Evanjihadists have become the conduit connecting the West Wing with the political gutter.

          Why shouldn’t they forfeit tax exempt status?

          Blessings!

            • Dear James Dosher:

              What can I say? As much as I DON’T want corrupt rule, I DO want strict church and state separation.

              The conjunction of church and state is rather like mixing ice cream and manure. Both are wonderful for what they do in their own way — one satisfying the palate, and the other softening hard clay, making it wonderfully capable of supporting plant life.

              Here’s the thing. Mixing the two really doesn’t change the manure much. But man-o-man … is that ice cream ever transformed!

              When the church is the church, then the state can be the state. This brings the best out of both.

              Blessings!

  27. I do not hate anyone. I thought Obama’s policies were a disaster and I still do. I can disagree with someone without hating them. However you are right about the division of this country. I am 60 years old and have never seen this country so polarized. I can still be friends with people I disagree with. I think both sides should tone down the language and live out our faith. We probably won’t have a civil war but we all need to show more respect for each other.

    • We probably won’t have a civil war

      You are far more optimistic than I am. And if you want to know why it is coming, look at all the lovely folks here who are egging on young black people to commit the kind of atrocities we just saw out of Chicago by telling them all white people are horrible racists just filled with hate, hate, hate. I mean, after hearing years of that, I can’t imagine why those four lovely young people would decide to do such a horrible thing. Can you?

      • Dear Zaklog the Deplorable:

        Nothing frightens the ruling class more than poor Blacks, Whites, Asians, Hispanics, Mediterraneans, etc. uniting against them on the basis of class!

        Promote the Clinton/Democratic Party ‘identity issues’ line if you must. But I’m still calling it a smokescreen to mask ongoing class warfare against the poor of every stripe.

        • Dear Charles:

          Seven points, here; your question gets addressed last.

          Postulate the existence of three classes…

          The bourgeoisie
          The petty bourgeoisie
          The proletariat

          Stripped baldly and badly to the barest…

          The bourgeoisie is that razor-thin layer at the very top of society.
          The petty bourgeoisie is an echelon down – very comfortable, but certainly not top-drawer.
          The proletariat is everyone who must work for a living to survive.

          Relations between these three classes…

          The bourgeois layer is far too thin to rule society itself; it wouldn’t survive one day alone. It must have an alliance with the petty bourgeoisie. But it’s an uneasy alliance. But the upper [bourgeois] class detests the middle [petty bourgeois] class knowing that the middle class craves upper-class social privilege. They unite ONLY to oppose the proletariat.

          Social classes stated in partisan form…

          The Republican Party MAINLY represents bourgeois interests [ownership/investment/banking-finance class].
          The Democratic Party MAINLY represents petty bourgeois interests [educated/professional/white collar/etc.].
          NO major party represents the proletariat. ITS interests/station degrades whichever party ‘wins elections.’

          Social function of class partisanship…

          Elections express a rift, an internal disagreement among the very wealthy as to HOW and in WHOSE INTEREST the state should be governed. Both [bourgeois] parties FEIGN to benefit the proletariat while together DIVIDING it, EACH hoping to win for the benefit of its OWN [upper or very comfortable middle] class. Campaigns/elections = ruling class conflict.

          Political strategy in class relations…

          The proletariat [working class] position is bettered SOLELY by class awareness, unity and struggle. The bourgeoisie and petty bourgeoisie together are NO MATCH for a united, politically aware/active working class. The ruling class at all costs MUST avoid this. So it divides, confuses, exhausts and disorients the proletariat in all the ways we see.

          Our Civil War II Adversaries to be…

          Here is the question: ‘can the proletariat overcome division to unite and overthrow bourgeois rule, and so establish a society which works for the benefit of all, rather than the profligate greed of a few.’ If the answer is yes, then the whole working class will rise up in revolution. If it can’t unite, the ruling class will push the proletariat to destroy itself.

          But understand this, Charles – the opposition in either case originates in the ruling class alliance against the proletariat.

          PS: Duck, for the incoming wave of … whatever 😉

            • Dear Zaklog the Deplorable:

              In the aftermath of the 2008 crisis, the G-20 [85% of the world economy] pledged not to revert to protectionism and trade-war measures each time it has met since 2009. Yet the contradictions in capitalist economy overpower those pledges. China, Russia, Turkey, Japan and India all undergo ‘national revival.’ The Brexit campaign was heavily laden with nationalism. And while the slogan, ‘Make Germany Great Again’ is not heard there, the sentiments are there in academic, military and government circles. Mr. Trump’s elevation heightens the tensions of multinational fervency by bringing to the fore the unbridled economic nationalism of the American ruling class. The US is taking us to world WAR.

              This has nothing to do with sentiments, with the dispositions of heads of state, with a lack of effort or creativity. Under capitalism, there simply is no way to avoid this. The ‘America First’ agenda is the ruling elites’ response to their total inability to anything to sustainable growth. And what now unfolding is what Trots have said for many years.

              Despite Fukuyama’s absurdly puerile assertion that the end of history was attained, Marx’ thought has seldom been more relevant.

              As for Venezuela – their economy is so mixed that even Marxists who live there cannot tell you whether it is a Capitalist or socialist country. But Trots are clearer on this. They point out the impossibility and betrayal of Stalin’s ‘socialism in one country’ nonsense.

              Blessings!

              • I’m not comfortable talking with a communist.Your ideology has killed more people than all the religions in the world combined. Until you recognize this and repent of it, I don’t think I have anything further to say to you.

        • Let me make clear first, I do not want this. This is not some kind of sick fantasy of mine that I wish for daily. This is a terror of mine that I do not see how we are going to avoid with the way a lot of people in leadership positions (the “news” media and academia in particular) keep talking.

          I could guess at two possibilities. The first would be largely urban versus rural. Look at the county by county presidential election results for 2016. Except for New England, the whole country is basically enormous swathes of red with a few patches of blue. Those red areas have been feeling cr—ed on for a long time now, especially with terms like “flyover country” and books like What’s the Matter with Kansas?, where “enlightened” leftists tell us all how stupid we are for not voting just like them. And those blue islands are still cr—ing all over us, and telling us it’s rose petals falling from heaven.

          The second possibility is simple racial conflict. And covering up the horrific prevalence of black violent crime, or telling white people it’s all their fault, is only stoking the fuels of that fire.

          I don’t want either of these. I don’t want to see that happen to people I know. I don’t want to do these things myself. But many people seem to be pushing these two divides ever harder, and no, Trump is hardly the worst of them.

          • I am hoping people will figure out your kind of analysis is off base and will come together despite the terrible direction the government is going. Like John Pavlovitz said brilliantly ….numerous amounts of people joining together for one effort and resistance can make a world of a difference.

    • Dear American Evangelical Christians,

      When my messiah was riding her ass into Washington D. C. you knocked her off. I’m mad as hell at you. I hate you!

      John P.

    • Do you know what is even more astounding—your complete inability to take John P. down or make any charges against him stick. His ministry just keeps getting stronger and stronger because people see Jesus at work in it—which is precisely why you and your buddies are wasting your time here.

          • call it what you want – it’s still a blog and an outlet for the owner to express his opinions.

            In fairness to owner, he can and should write
            anything he wants…by opening his blog to comments – he increases traffic to his blog.

            The fact is, the blog owner demonstrates strength of character by NOT censuring opposing comments….which is more than I can say for your blog….isn’t that right?

          • Hey now! I pay $25 a month to be part of this congregation. Don’t insult us!!!! :0

            Actually, most likely like you, Charles, I don’t pay a damn dime to see what John Pavlovitz’s opinions are. I imagine you post here free as well … like the rest of us.

            He has the courage to post his opinions and produces the ergs of energy to maintain this blog for the rest of us to post / rant on. I don’t have a blog. Do you?

            Okay then. I can hardly be confused with a fan of Mr. Pavlovitz’s ideology yet I can grasp the difference between folks I disagree with and true ‘stupidity’. Here is a BIG CLUE: Mr. Pavlovitz doesn’t censor contrary comments to his views thus allowing debate even it it occasionally wanders into infantile name-calling. I am not sure you appreciate how brave an action that is.

        • I think one of the reasons is because there are many christians believers who don’t go to an organized church service. There are many people who have faith in God who are busy in their communities or who work on Sundays or other things are taking precedent as families have had lifestyle changes. It also depends on how you define liberal churches. Whenever they have studies like this they neglect to examine the so-called conservative churches because not every church is strictly conservative. There is a mix of point of views in the congregants. All this division about liberal vs conservative is overblown. You will see churches transforming and becoming more progressive in their teachings . It is already starting to happen as churches are responding to LGBT people in their communities and young people who are opting out of marriage and are choosing to live together first and the acceptance of divorce and re-marriage to name a few examples.

          • It is already starting to happen as churches are responding to LGBT people in their communities and young people who are opting out of marriage and are choosing to live together first and the acceptance of divorce and re-marriage to name a few examples.

            You mean “churches” which are throwing out 2,000 years of consistent doctrine and embracing sin. Yes, I’m sure that will end well. Are your ears itching at all, by the way?

            • Zaklog the Deplorable,

              The church has grown and changed through the millennia. One example is each person can read their own personal Bible. Is that not a good thing? Woman’s rights, the abolition of slavery, children’s labour rights are these not all good changes in tradition?

              • Are you even out of high school? I’m asking this because the example you gave of the church “growing and changing” is laughably irrelevant to the question at hand.

                Tell me, if it cost $25,000 to get a Bible, how many people do you think would read it at home? Would most people probably be content to hear it at church?

    • You rejected our preferred mode of government! That is the same thing as rejecting Jesus Christ himself!

      Hmmm, does anyone else detect a whiff of idolatry here?

  28. Well James I certainly agree with your last paragraph. I have always thought that way but I confess I have always believed that money IS the root of all evil. And, I don’t believe for a minute that a wealthy person can’t be bought just because they are already wealthy. Before everyone starts screaming, of course there are wonderful wealthy people. As just one example, the millions they donate to charities can do so much more than the paltry sums I donate. They also create jobs. But with politics, with each step up the ladder, a person has to sell off a part of themselves just to get to the next step. I also equate money with power. We all see things through different eyes.

    • Everyone. I have concluded to my satisfaction that Charles and Elvis Presley are the same person, who is actually a lizard-man who feeds off the blood of the young. I can only offer proof in person. Phone me on a secure line and we’ll meet up sometime next week. Bring your own tin foil.

    • Wait, you concluded I was some other guy too. I don’t remember who that one is. Can you remind me please?

      Every once in a while you make some sense, and then the tinfoil hat goes back on and you lose all credibility.

      • Yup, there is only one person in the whole world who actually disagrees with them. Ah, what am I doing here? It’s bad form to reply to yourself.

        😉

  29. I think you fail to see that Jesus did not come to deliver social justice but to bring people to greater holiness and to think as God thinks….and I don’t see God’s holy being embracing the thoughts of the LEFT!

    • Hi Anonymous,

      I have some problems with what you said. If Jesus didn’t come to deliver social justice then what is the Kingdom of God all about? The Kingdom Jesus preached about “the last will become first and the first will become last” whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant” If we are not living that way now how will we live that way in the future? When we die our lives will be a continuation of the principles we upheld in the here and now, don’t you think?

      And secondly, are you saying we are supposed to become greater in holiness- as if holiness starts small and gets greater and greater? You might want to be careful about how you understand that- because we cannot make ourselves holy- God does- and you are essentially saying holiness can be measured- that we can have a lot of holiness or a little holiness. This doesn’t jive with what was understood about holiness in the OT.

      And lastly being on the left is a neutral position. There are good and bad in all political persuasions. Don’t get caught up in the trap of stereo typing people.

      have a good day.

        • You love to fantasize about punishing people who disagree with you politically, Chucky. Why do you harbor this hatred in your heart? Have you ever stopped to wonder if it might be unhealthy?

      • And lastly being on the left is a neutral position.

        When the left gives up on Marxism, you may be correct. Until then, being on the left is morally questionable.

        • Liberalism is neutral because it is an idea. The application of the idea is when we get into to trouble, because no one can hold to an ideal not even the conservative.

          (I thought of this over a bowl of cereal while smoking a cigarette)

          • Liberalism is neutral because it is an idea.

            This is the best you’ve got? I could come up with a better argument than this stone drunk with only 2 hours of sleep.

            Okay. Here goes, “I should murder all my neighbors with a garden rake” is an idea. Ideas are neutral. It’s in the application of ideas that we get into trouble. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that idea.

            No, some ideas are better than others. Some ideas have massively destructive consequences and others do not. Marxism, which gdd is a fan of, for instance, is a horrible, horrible idea. The free market, which I am a fan of, is not.

            Please don’t post further until you have better arguments than a mentally retarded chimpanzee.

            • There is a position that proports liberalism is value-neutral i.e.: the idea of tolerance of difference. I don’t know if that is where Zaklog the Adorable was going or not, but thought this was worth mentioning.

            • Dear Zaklog the Deplorable:

              Your glorious Capitalist political economy isn’t doing so well now. Is it. Mainly, we produce War, Famine, Pestilence and Death.

              Those are pretty hideous entities. Well, they’re not pretty. But the rest is true.

            • I was thinking more in terms of world views and philosophies….. and how…. not all things are right or wrong rather different i.e. neutral in the sense that we can hold a liberal position without despising a conservative position because the bad things like bigotry crosses over all political boundaries. For example it used to be that most if not all men thought women should not be allowed to vote or go to university or become a doctor.

              (I was thinking about this while eating licorice and popcorn and drinking a ginger ale )

  30. Fundamentalists (as distinct from evangelicals as a whole) are now rejoicing -indeed gloating – over what they see as a great victory that vindicates their judgmentslusm, exclusivity, and sanctimoniousness. Indeed, they’ve fired Jesus and hired their self-defied selves, in keeping with the attitudes and practices of their new, utterly self-absorbed political leaders who view them as useful idiots and not without good reason. /// However, the fundies will sow the seeds of the destruction of their cause when (not if but when) they push things to the point of either forcing or trying to force mass faked acceptance of their very un-Christian practices and beliefs onto those outside their sphere. A sweeping juggernaut of reaction against fun-DAMN-mentalism surely will come, and the harsh bigots will be sent back to the ranks of the ignorant fringe where they were after the Scopes trial – and where they belong. Trump – and even more, Pence and some of Trump”s cabinet members – will ultimately do more to diminish and discredit fundamentalism than any atheist or agnostic group could possibly do. Let’s hope that progressive Christianity, which exists and operates more in the manner of its namesake, doesn’t get tarred with the same brush. That possibility is a matter of grave concern for me.

    • yet, all you can do is watch as a new administration comes into power -unless of course, your grave concern includes overthrowing the government….

  31. I agree. It’s sad, but true.

    I find it maddeningly frustrating to hear evangelical acquaintances continue to defend Trump. Their only response when I challenge Trump’s immoral leadership is “…but Hillary.” SMH.

    Clinton was unpopular for many reasons, but there’s no denying she showed empathy, compassion, and respect for disadvantaged communities in this country. That concept is as foreign to Trump as turning the other cheek, another quality which seems to have been fired by this lot.

    • Wait! I deny it…emphatically. There’s no evidence for your assertion. As far as HC is concerned people are just “useful idiots”.

  32. How true this blog is! The “church” has become so entrenched and warped by politics in the last century. To have any type of reasonable discussion that does not fit their conservative world view is next to impossible. With that said, I have found NOT to take the “troll bait” is the only way to have a truly lively and reasonable discussion here (or anywhere on social media). Talk around them. It will make them eventually seek an audience with like minded conservatives. This is just my observation. Keep up the fantastic, timely and much needed writing John. We get you.

    • Yvonne: Indeed some are being baited by trolls. Especially the troll who is many different people who tends to banter back an forth to himself. Don’t bite. What’s so humorous is that the trolls complain that John P. expresses his views just to get traffic on his blog but they’re the ones who reply the most. Funny!

      • You’re finally making some sense, lolalola, queen of the trolls. All of this activity, regardless of whether it is in a agreement or disagreement with JP helps drive traffic to this site, clicks on the adds, and change in JP’s pocket.

        I’m a chump for participating in that, but I think I would miss you too much if I left.

  33. I turned on my computer this morning to find over two hundred comments to this blog post. I deleted them because I just don’t have time. Were you up all night talking to each other?

    I am unsubbing from this round of comments. See ya when John P posts again.

  34. Neither side of the aisle are angels. They both have done very bad, sometimes criminal things throughout history. I have heard a few Republican congressmen say they are on the side of God or we are the party of family values? Someone on this feed surely can answer this – do you honestly believe that only Republicans fill the the churches or the “real” churches I guess. Are the Republicans the only ones who raise their children with family values? If you feel this way you can stop reading, this is not a “you started the whole thing about bringing religion into politics” tirade. It just seems to me that Republicans can co-opt a word or phrase so much better than Democrates, Independents, etc. To me it comes across as we are the only godly ones and the rest of you are going to hell. Now the words pro-life. We all know that their definition of pro-life begins and ends with abortion. In actuality pretty much everyone would chose life if given the choice between life and death. They are anti-abortion which is their right but have chosen to slap a halo and a pair of wings on it and call it pro-life. When we say pro-choice they say we are actually pro-abortion which is absolutely not true. As a woman I decided over 50 years ago that my voice should never overrule another woman’s (not a child) voice over he own body just as I would never accept hers over mine. And personally I don’t think men should even get a vote (excluding the actual sperm donor), (with their “legitimate” or “forcible” rape) especially if they don’t know how a woman’s body works or even the definition of rape. For someone to say most abortions are because a woman does’t want to be fat or some other nonsense is worse than saying a man’s brain is in his penis. It is wrong in so many ways. Again just my thoughts wondering why speaking how we feel invites so much name calling and venom. Are we just that bad at co-opting words and phrases?

      • Oh Joe C sweetie I knew I would hear from you and almost gentlemanly to boot, Most, not all of course, women in a desperate situation have their own story and have to make a heartbreaking choice either way. You have your belief and are entitled to it and listening to these women wouldn’t do either of you any good. But, next time you go to the Vatican you can stop and visit Cardinal Law and ask him about all the innocent souls he allowed and even enabled to be killed as a man of God. I really am not trying to be mean I just hate hypocrisy by those who hold power just as much as you hate abortion. But I do appreciate the tone of your comment. Thank you

      • Joe C. I want to apologize for my earlier comment about Cardinal Law, not the words but that they were directed to you. You, like millions of Catholics, were also victims of what I think is the most vile slap in the face to God to Catholicism. You had no part in it. We will never agree on things, and I am saddened when you express yourself as a representative of Catholics because I feel you diminish the light I see in other Catholics who are my friends and family. But you are who you are and I am who I am. And, we both are allowed to speak our truths. I hope you accept my apology and we can go back to our corners.

        • I didn’t see any need to apologize, but thank you. That kind of humility is rarely expressed here, except by yours truly.

          You don’t know me and it’s difficult to really know what someone is like from message board posts. If you met me in person, you would think I was kind, sweet, intelligent, good-looking, and humble. But alas, it’s very likely that never the twain shall meet during our earthy existence, so you’re stuck with this cartoon version of me striving to express my beliefs as best I can.

          It’s too bad these discussions always lead to the negative, especially since there are many positive things I would prefer to discuss.

          Believe it or not, I’m very active in our church and am fairly well known and many look up to me as an exemplary Catholic, and a very nice man. Luckily for me, they don’t that well either, or what a bad boy I am online.

          I appreciate that you seem to be trying to communicate with me as a real person and are not a meanie. Some of them just want to take a couple of whacks at me and then move on without entering into any discussion. I get frustrated at times and say things I regret, but overall I mean well.

          • Ha, how fun. I knew there was a kernel of light in your darkness – a well-spoken assured gentlman. But your words tell me that you do recognize your “bad boy” side for what it is. I will always remember one of the nuns who taught our catechism class. After the first couple of kids wet themselves in humiliation, even at our young age we realized she obviously enjoyed her power to do this to children. I hope she is still in purgatory. Any way, I seem to always be stuck in mom, grandma mode and I struggle with the need to call out what I see as bad behavior. So I will try to ignore your bad behavior (and will fail at times) and keep a picture in my mind of the other guy – a guy named Joe who is a good looking well-spoken stranger with an open heart. I wish you joy and peace and a passion that lessons the need to hurt the hurting.

  35. I’m not Christian. However, if I were, DT’s inauguration would be all the more reason to call upon Jesus and ALL holy men and women, to rise up against this manical liar and take back our democracy. Instead of firing Jesus, we should do the hard work of impeaching DT. This is the first time reading your blog that I’ve felt more downtrodden than uplifted or supported. We need to preach against DT, not cave!

  36. “We will still prominently display the Cross of course, as this is continues to be a powerful and lucrative branding tool with our customers, especially combined with the American Flag and the TRUMP name. We’ll also continue to lobby for your name to remain on our currency, for obvious reasons. ”

    Sadly, this is the experience of too many of us. Most of His teachings have been obscured in evangelical churches. The ugliness of using His word as a way to divide people AND raise money for political gain, not to help those who are disenfranchised and in need of love and support, is what passes for “the good news” in too many corners these days.

  37. I find this post terribly sad…maybe is was meant to be witty satire as I have seen some here refer to it as such…
    I find nothing witty about saying you want to fire Jesus, and because you don’t like who won the election?? Should that not give you even more reason to need Jesus in your life, if the end is coming as you so assume and constantly shout then why would you not want Jesus by your side?
    You and a majority of your followers have decided that ALL Republicans are evil, you have deemed them unworthy to call themselves Christians, accused them of vile behaviour, and called them offensive names…I am sure there are Republicans that may deserve that hatred spewed at them, as they may act as you say they do, but how unfair to assume they are all like that. I know lots of Democrats who have turned to the nastier side of their beliefs…do I assume ALL Democrats are like that…no I don’t. A radical no matter which side of the fence can be a danger…

    I like to assume that my beliefs are right, and are the way to go and live my life…I know there are always going to be those that disagree with me and have different beliefs than I do…that does not make them bad people…should I yell and scream at them and accuse them of such awful behaviour because they believe differently then me?

    At the end of the day I would love to say that we will all come together, but sadly I don’t see that happening, at this point just agreeing to disagree would be better than the fighting screaming and insulting that has been going on.

    Those that are so against Republicans and Trump, are living in an angry fear based hatred, there were those that also lived that way when Obama got elected and also feared the Democrats…and feel they are just as bad as you accuse the Republicans of being.

    Whatever your political beliefs, either Republican or Democrat those are the policies you are going to agree with..albiet maybe not all…there are always going to be things Politicians do that you do not like or agree with no matter if you voted for them or not, as no one is perfect not even those we elect to run our Nation.

    I know that the Blog host and a majority of his followers feel that Obama has been the best President we have ever had, and are going to miss him, there are those of us who did not agree with Obama or his policies and will not miss him as much…nothing we say or do, no matter how loud we fight scream and insult will change our opinions…Firing Jesus will not change the election outcome.

    Losing those you care about in your life and outcasting them and un-welcoming them into your home will not change the outcome of the election…I am stunned at friendships and even familes that have broken up over this election…I Thank God every day that this has not been an issue for me, neither with any of my family or friends.

    I see alot of bashing towards those who disagreed with Obama over his 8 years and were not silent about it, now the tables are turned and the Trump supporters and Trump and the Republicans are dealing with the same thing. Nothing changed over Obama’s 8 years, no matter the bashing the yelling or the insults changed anything that those who did not support him disagreed with, I figure it will go the same this time…lots of yelling and screaming and insults…till Trump is out of office. But I don’t see it helping anymore than it did for the past eight years.

    Those of us that were against Obama were immediately deemed Racist…no one ever considered that we just did not like his policies or some of the things that he did while in office…of course we were and still are glued to our fake news…so I guess we never really knew what we were talking about anyway.

    The Blog host and a majority of his followers might be right about Trump and the Republicans….and when and if that day comes you can shout it from the rooftops, and lord it over all of our heads that disagreed with you…that will certianly fix everything, and maybe you can even call those you insulted and kicked out of your lives, rub it in their faces and see if you can mend that relationship, since you can now at least be able to laugh at their stupidity for supporting The Republican Party…

    And there is a chance that the Blog host and a majority of his followers are wrong….there might even be a chance that all news puts out fake news and we are all being fooled and strung along like puppets.

    We are told by this blog host to treat all people the same, to love all people and not discriminate against anyone, that much I do agree with. So no matter if the Republicans and the Trump supporters are right or if the Democrats and the Hillary supporters are right, one thing I know I can do is treat everyone the same, not discrminate , and treat everyone with love and respect…no matter their choice in this election, or their religious choices, or lifestyle choices…

    The Blog host signs his letter from, American Evangelical Christianity,and suggests that maybe Jesus can still work in other areas. We wish you luck with your future endeavors, and trust you will have great success elsewhere, perhaps in the Progressive Church or even the secular field, where your brand of social justice is still a core value.
    Many of us still hold Jesus as a core value in our lives and hold his teachings as a core value in our lives…we may not all argree with each other, and we may not understand or approve of others choices…but it is not our place to judge others for their beliefs or choices, and really it is not even our place to approve or disaprove of others choices or beliefs…it is not our life it is someones elses.
    I know what is in my heart and soul, I don’t assume or pretend to know that without a shadow of a doubt about others, beyond my closest friends and family. And even at that, those that I don’t know their hearts and souls, those that I may only have an idea of…what is in their hearts and souls, I try very hard not to judge or condem them, I try very hard not to assume the worst of them because of their choices or beliefs.
    The blog host and a majority of his followers have smacked the gavel down, and judged, assumed the worst and belittled, mocked and insulted those who disagree with them. You might be missing out on knowing some great people, for your quick snap judgements, and refusal to accept that just because they disagree with you and voted against what you believe in does not make them bad people.
    Nobody’s story or life is ever the same…
    The Blog host and a majority of his followers might be ok with writting a letter of dismisal to Jesus….
    But no matter who is President, Jesus is Our Lord and Saviour, He is King….and he is ALWAYS needed!
    I am going to keep Jesus, My Lord and Saviour close to my heart and hold on tight!!!

  38. The reality is that Evangelicalism has been a distinct religion – separate from mainstream Christianity – for decades, at least in the US and in countries such as Australia where the evangelical churches tend to follow US patterns in their church life. Sadly, we need to say that many evangelicals are no longer followers of Jesus and that, while it’s possible to be both an evangelical and a Christian, it’s very, very hard.

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