It’s Time We Stopped Calling Donald Trump a Christian

Enough is enough.

Even in the early days of the Presidential campaign it was a ludicrous idea: that Donald Trump was now a Christian; that he’d miraculously “found Jesus” right at the time he needed to pull in millions of Evangelical voters. Never mind that his life showed an open contempt for most of the things the Jesus of the Gospels lived and preached: humility, generosity, respect, empathy, kindness, peace.

The high profile-evangelists in his corner assured their rightly alarmed flocks, that behind the scenes Donnie was changed man, a “baby Christian” who’d now seen the light and was making his way down the narrow road of faith to lead us all to the Promised Land (where curiously America was first and everyone was white.)

Sure, he was on his third marriage and was heard on video boasting of his infidelity to his current wife. Yes, he said he could grab a woman by the genitalia. Yes, he advocated that protesters at his rallies be “roughed up.” Sure, he made fun of a disabled man. Certainly, he talked about walling off Mexicans and banning Muslims and taking away healthcare—but Donnie loved Jesus now, so all should be well with our souls.

The opportunistic religious leaders began publicly framing the vile, profane, relentlessly offensive Trump as a flawed, imperfect tool of God‚ and American church folk raised on a faith of fear and conditioned to believe they are perpetually in danger—began buying it. Little by little, it became okay, even sensible to call Donald Trump a Christian. (Talk about a miracle.)

And for someone who has served as a pastor for twenty years, the transformation was astounding and disheartening to witness. Millions of fundamentalists who’d previously spent their days parsing out Bible verses to condemn the LGBTQ community, Muslims, entertainers, Atheists, Democrats, suddenly became a people of Grace. They got really liberal with the Scriptures. They lectured those of us who questioned it all “not to judge lest we be judged”, and heaped shame upon us for bringing up example after example of the man’s hypocrisy, because “God looks at the heart” and how dare we assess another’s professed faith. (Somehow these things were never in play over the eight years they spent daily crucifying Barack Obama, but perhaps the issue there was one not of religion, but of pigmentation.)

But a few months into Donald Trump’s tenure, Christians need to speak the truth that sets them free: Donald Trump is not a Christian.

Yes, he may have shown up in a church during the campaign (looking as comfortable as a cow in a slaughterhouse), and he may have given some lip service prayer to one of his preacher pals while golfing, and he may have bamboozled scores of Christians already dying to believe it so they could make peace with their vote—but he is not a man following Jesus.

In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus speaks these words:

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”  Mt 5:15-20

Jesus says that we can judge people. We should evaluate the things we can see. We can measure devotion to God by what is manifested outwardly. We look at the “fruit”.

What is the fruit of Donald Trump’s life, of his marriages, his business dealings, his campaign, of his young Presidency? 

What is the fruit of eliminating healthcare for tens of millions of poor people?
What is the fruit of banning refugees and leaving them stranded at airports?
What is the fruit of walling of Mexico and demanding they pay for the gesture?
What is the fruit of driving an oil pipeline through sacred Native American land?
What is the fruit of filling your Cabinet with billionaires?

What is the fruit of demonizing and banning Muslims?
What is the fruit of appointing a white supremacist to the highest level of government?

It’s rotten fruit, that’s what it is.

It’s exactly the kind of greedy, bloated, bitter, violent, self-centered, myopic existence that Jesus spent his life calling us to reject. So no, I don’t know the President’s heart or his inner confession of faith, but I have eyes and they see no love or benevolence or compassion—and that does matter to Jesus.

Christians need to stop insisting that Donald Trump is a Christian if they really care at all about people coming to know Christ. If that is the greatest burden on their hearts, using this man is tantamount to spiritual treason. It is a perversion of the Gospels that provides such a dissonance to the bystander, as to make Christ all but invisible. Until he says or does anything that remotely resembling him, we need to stop using him and Jesus in the same breath because it distorts Jesus by association.

Christian, you can continue to support this man, but don’t say you’re doing it because he is a man of God, a follower of Jesus, someone striving for Christlikeness. The putrid, stinking, insect-drawing fruit—says otherwise. 

Jesus matters to me. The words he said matter to me. The life he calls us to live matters. Incarnating this Jesus in people’s lives matters to me. This is why that word Christian still matters. I am also a person of Grace, but I also live in a reality where the stuff we do is connected to what we believe.

I don’t know Donald Trump. He may actually believe he is a Christian. He may be so surrounded by sycophants and religious yes-men that no one is giving him the hard words about the kind of gentle, loving, sacrificial life Jesus called his people to live. If that’s the case I hope that he, like Saul will have a moment where his eyes are opened and he sees the goodness he might do with the power and influence at his disposal—and he is changed. But right now, using him as a symbol of the Christian faith is catastrophic for people looking on.

Christian, you might be tempted to argue with me or attack my position, and you would be welcome to, but I’d first suggest you go and read the Sermon on the Mount, spend some time in reflection and prayer—and then look with fresh eyes and tell me where you see Jesus in this man’s life and why you’re okay claiming it as your own.
 

 

 

 

 

 

1,307 thoughts on “It’s Time We Stopped Calling Donald Trump a Christian

  1. “Somehow these things were never in play over the eight years they spent daily crucifying Barack Obama, but perhaps the issue there was one not of religion, but of pigmentation.”

    WORD.

    • Support of same-sex marriage is DEFINITELY not Christian.

      Regardless, I don’t think playing the race card was appropriate. It was dirty dealing as usual. Trump has no advantage because of his orange skin.

      • “Support of same-sex marriage is DEFINITELY not Christian.”
        As a 72+ year old Christian, born and raised in the church and still there today, this statement is nuts. LGBTQ folks are everywhere in the church and I’m thrilled they are there and always have been in the church.
        Sorry, not buying your brand.

        • Agreed that people have these disorders and inclinations and can and should be a part of the church as we all have disorders, but there is no such thing as a same-sex Christian marriage, and it’s very clear that same-sex sexual acts are gravely disordered and can lead one to hell. Don’t take my word for it. Read Paul.

          • I’m sorry, but respectfully, what you say is not true. Go back and read Paul with a good solid, scholarly, commentary and study the background of what he was talking about. Paul was condemning a practice of the Romans that today we would call pedophilia. Not same sex marriage. The fact that so many well-intentioned Christians don’t know that has caused an awful lot of fear and pain to come down on top of GLBT people in the name of Christian love.

            • Stan, how funny how the Catholics trolling this blog don’t have the passion against how their church protected pedophiles. But they spill over with passion about women making decisions that affect their lives, their family lives, their economical lives, and literally their own lives.

              And, yet, they critique the lives of people who are joined in love. Unbelievable!

              • Anonymous
                I get your point, but I’m not sure it’s accurate. I know of a lot of Catholics who were pretty outraged over that.
                “Lone Catholic”, do you have any first hand recollections on the response of Catholics to the pedophilia scandal?

              • Well … I came to this blog by coincidence when someone shared this writing about Trump on my facebook. Please allow me to troll this blog. Pedophiles in the Catholic church? sure. Who said that priests are perfect? They are human like you and I. We will respond “individually” before God for the bad things that we do and the good things we fail to do. There are thousands of priests doing charitable work around the world; we could speak about them also. ” ‘Let the one among you who is guiltless be the first to throw a stone at her” John 8:7

                • The abuse of children and sexual misconduct such as adultery occur at the same rate in other Christian groups as in the Catholic church. Perhaps it comes to light more in Catholism because there are upward of one billion catholics.

                • The problem with the pedophile crisis in the church was THE COVERUP. Supposedly normal people with normal sensibilities looked at this atrocity and decided to hide the perpetrators. Children sentenced to a life of guilt and shame and grief, so the church wouldn’t have to endure guilt and shame and grief. The church REVICTIMIZED these children over and over and over and over again. Your own Pope wasn’t okay with the coverup.

                • Exactly. Research shows that Protestants gave a bigger problem with molestation than the Catholics. Catholics just get more publicity.

                  • ” Protestants gave a bigger problem with molestation than the Catholics. ”

                    Not true. The interesting thing though is that sexual predation of Catholic priests directed at women and young girls was largely ignored, even though it was actually more common sexual predation on males o any age.

                • Just a thought…

                  Sure, there are pedophile priests,.
                  Sure they live lives undercover.
                  But, I ask, “Why”?

                  The majority of priests are truly chaste, and keep their vows to Christ and the Father, as well as the Church.

                  The minority, however, are not strong enough to keep the vow of chastity [which ever way they might lean], or they never took this particular vow seriously.

                  The ONE thing offering relief to these minority priests is denied them. In the Orthodox Churches, priests are allowed to marry. Even Bishops are allowed to marry, though they usually take vows of chastity upon taking their Bishopric.

                  From what I have read, there are not many non-celibate priests who are not married among the Orthodox Churches [to women, of course].

                  The Roman Churches are the causes of their own infections of non-celibate priests and other officials — at least here in the States.

                  The Pope must issue an official letter concerning this, and soon.
                  He must find Scriptural backing for their Canon Law referring to ONLY celibate Ministers of the Gospel.

                  I do not believe there is such a thing as a priesthood in the OT which was totally celibate.  

                  Priests were all of the tribe of Levi, which performed their official duties for all of Israel.

                  There is no demand that they be unmarried; on the contrary, there were more married priests than there were unmarried, either because of age, or custom.

                  In the NT, presbyters [priests] could be married or not, according to their own call by God. Although Paul gives advice to Timothy about appointing spokesmen for the Church [i.e., “priests”] with so-and-so qualities, nothing is said about eunuchs other than that it is a good calling, probably the highest calling.

                  Donald Lee McDaniel

                  • Of the four priests I have known only one was not actively sexually deviant. In addition I met a man that was in a relationship with our Bishop and left him because of his obsession with being bound gagged and humiliated. So, say what you want i suppose.

                  • My understanding is that in the late middle ages, the Church forbade clergy marriage so as to bar inheritance of church property. Nothing about morality, just finance.

                    • that sounds about right, it is always about the money with these churches who supposedly follow Jesus’s teaching about not having material possessions. Religions are FULL of hypocrites

                  • Celibacy in the Catholic church for the clergy was not even a thing until the 12th century. Even Popes got married, had children, ect. Celibacy within the Catholic Church is more political law than a spiritual one.

                • I agree. Trump may not be a Christian, but I also question whether someone who would write a post that is so judgmental and hate filled could be either. That is for God to decide, but this type of post helps no one and accomplishes nothing. It actually incites more hate in a world where those who disagree with Trump should be working toward their own goals of making the world a better place. All of the discord and encouragement to be angry only creates more of the same. That isn’t what Christians do.

                  • I’m sorry Vanessa but what you are saying are just things that sound nice and amicable but actually have no foundation in the Scripture. The Bible time and again warns you to keep an eye open for “black sheep”, to be innocent as doves, yet shrewd as snakes, because we are as unto “sheep among wolves”. To not tolerate those who, paying lip service to Christ, show with their words or actions that they do not belong. Pointing those things out is not “hate”, is discernment.

                    If you want to know how hate actually sounds like, look out for the man calling the whole people of another nation “rapists”, for the man inciting violence against opposers at his rallies, for the man mocking a disabled person who dared question him, and a long list of etc.

                    While it is true that we need to look out for constructive ways to work for the good of the country, it is important that people understand how to identify when a liar tries to say that he’s a Christian to earn your support. The fact that a significant part of the American Church fell for such a transparent maneuver and helped put a man so antithetical to the teachings of Christ in the office shows that we all need a good wake up call.

                    • Amen! I guess we can twist anything we want and need to in order to justify WHAT WE EANT TO BELIEVE. NO PPLITICIAN IS PURE OR PERFECT, BUT WHEN YO fag one son or some SINS WHILE JUSTIFYING OR simply overlooking another, you’re ignoring the promise THAT A JUST AND A RIGHTEOUS GOD WILL JUDGE THEM ALL! SO, ABORTION IS WRONG AND RACIAL DISCRIMINATION IS WRONG AS WELL AS GREED, EXCLUSION OF SOME, AND THE PRIDEFUL belief that it’s wrong only cause and when it’s wrong to me. I allow my crimes to remind everyday of what I used to be and I allow the grace of God to show me what Jesus died to do for one and all! I thank the Father of all for being loving and forgiving, to all. When I spend more time focused on how incomplete we still are, we don’t have the time to beat our chests and to claim “Lord, I’m glad I’m not like him or them! ALL SIN IS SIN AND ALL SIN IS EVIL, SO SAYS THE LORD!

                    • For sure…. but we are not trying to justify or select some sins over others here? We’re not talking about being perfect, either? We’re talking about a man who clearly is not a Christian, i.e. lied about it, cynically, to get your vote. For sure, all the other candidates also have their sins and crimes and are nowhere near perfect. But the only one who pretended to be a Christian and make a big show out of it was Trump. That’s what the discussion is about.

                      If you want to overlook Trump’s sins and mistakes with the excuse that the other candidates are also sinful, feel free. I know it is hard to admit it when one has been duped. But it’s time to be honest: even if, inconceivably, Trump goes to be a good president, he’s not a Christian and the fact that he lied to you to get your vote remains.

                  • Vanessa, you comment reflects a lack of knowledge when it comes to Jesus’ life and ministry. His truth cuts like a sword, separating light from dark. I see nothing hate-filled in John’s piece. Jesus does ask us to make an appraisal of someone’s life by looking at their ‘fruit’. It is a practical method by which we can judge whether someone is following Christ or not. Christ’s message was full of grace, but it wasn’t soft. It is a hard message and demands that we face it in truth. That’s all I’ve seen John do in his piece.
                    Blessings.

                    • Clearly I see this as discernment.Yes we are not to judge but judgement is saying there is no hope. As long as Trump lives, he has hope to be redeemed by Christ. I see that a lot of good people are being duped, or brain washed by Republican slanted media such as Fox, Limbaugh, and Hannity. There are also big churches that are more political than spiritual and that is another bag of worms that would take too much time to get into tonight.I see no fruit of love, peace, patience, truth, kindness, heart for the poor,gentle spirit or love of God in the man. Christians are imperfect like everyone else but there is a thread of gratefulness and humble acceptance that God knows best. People have to stop assessing Trump as Christian when there are no fruits.Not one single fruit. This is disturbing. Jesus called us to discern and shows us an example by chastising all the pretension of the religious Pharisees.Jesus, I am sure, loved the Pharisees, but they were hurting people and that was intolerable to Him. The Bible goes on and on about being humble and hating arrogance….yet here is the President grandstanding and boasting at every turn and telling one untruth and then telling the truth to show that the prior statement was false DAILY. This saddens me. I do not hate Trump but rather look at him as a lost child, but a child that is doing damage to potential Christians because he rings false and nobody really likes this level of pretension of something he clearly knows NOTHING about(our faith), particularly by a so called Christian. On the other hand, a most humble man has graced us recently, the Pope, and he represents all the attributes of Christ. He lives most modestly because he has a heart for the poor, does not condemn the homosexuals, (as we all sin and need Christ’s forgiveness) and he said a telling thing toward Trump. Paraphrasing “Christians build bridges, not walls”. Indeed.

                  • I, personally, found not one smidgen of hate in this post. What I did find was the unadulterated truth. It was not judgmental one bit. It pointed out that we are to be on the watch for just such a person (Biblically predicted). Many of us have seen this and recognized DT fit this prediction.
                    We all owe it as our Christian duty to to do just as you stated but our hands are tied by DTs hateful actions toward mankind.

                    • Vanessa, I have a question.

                      If this was Pre Ww2 Nazi Germany..would we have a responsibility to call out Hitler? Or should we have stood idly?

                  • Vanessa, if you want to find actual hate filled and judgmental then look to trump and his evangelical right wing supporters.

                    And then answer this question. Where were you and yours then?

                  • I don’t think the post was hate filled at all. Calling a spade a spade is in fact what the Gospel tells us to do. Speak truths… No sugar coating no watered down version.

                    Name one thing in this post that he spoke that is not 100% truth regarding Donald Trump? Yet the People who defend him are as lacking as Donald Trump in truth. Don’t turn Donalds Evil, Lying, Devious, Filthy ways into something to be glorified!

                    There is Discord because he sows discord and people are too stupid to realize it, they are so in love with his money they cannot see the truth! Not one thing is this man doing for the people… Everything he is doing is for self gratification and those that are wealthy around him.

                    So when you have no Medical Care, Social Security and they can discriminate against you because your medical treatment is too expensive and you therefore become expendable. Remember what a gracious President he is!

                    People have been so programmed by Religion… Religion is not going to save you… Jesus Christ is the only one who can save!

                    His word says that not everything that comes in his name is of Him! Looking at this so called President… The Proof is in the pudding! The word also explains that in the last days… even Ignorance will not be an excuse. People need to think about that and get into the word and read it for themselves. It’s time to stop living off the ones opinions that are lining their pockets with our Money, Healthcare and ability to live.

              • Apparently you don’t know any Catholics because all of my Catholic friends (and they are many) were angry, sorrowful, bewildered and supportive of the survivors. And they stay in the Church determined to make things right (if that is even possible) & to make sure it never happens again.

                • Good for them. Where were you when it was happening to the children, oh yeah, I know, (when you listen to the stories) the victims say no one listened to them. And afterwards the Vatican moved money around to avoid compensating the victims when they realized there was thousands of court cases. Thousands !

                  No there is something wrong with the church system that allows for priests to lord over people and get away with abuse. It is not God given that we should be devoted to priests, doctrine and a temple system. It is man made to take wealth from people and keep them subservient and fearful.

                  There has not been sufficient justice yet and grace has not covered everything yet, because not everything has been repented of or acknowledged but those who did the abuse and covered it up.

                  Shame upon shame !

              • I was Catholic and am very horrified about the church and its history of hiding pedophiles. I also believe love is love and therefore agree with same-sex marriage. I also believe that sex education and availability of free contraception would result in far fewer abortions. But none of this has anything to do with Donald Trump. Make no mistake: Donald Trump’s religion is Donald Trump.

                • A McColley, Yes exactly. “Donald Trump’s religion is Donald Trump.” And his worshippers blaspheme. He evidently thinks he was elected to be god of this country. Shades of Roman Emperors. He even declared the day of his inauguration as a day of devotion, as if we are all to worship him.

            • Sorry, but the Bible does speak of that .. Romans 1:26-27, Leviticus 18:22, 20:13…Google it.. There are many different types of sins and they are all spoken of in His word.. Regardless.. God’s thoughts and man’s thoughts are very different..

              • those passages do not refer to loving relationships between those of the same sex. It refers to illicit and abusive sex outside of a covenant relationship. We have always been denied relationships, pushed to the fringes of society and forced to think of ourselves as evil or broken….when we are not.

              • Anonymous, God is the Good Shepard. He cares for the LGBTQ community. Jesus, himself, has come searching for his lost sheep and the Holy Spirit has been helping us for years while christians have condemned us and turned their backs to our suffering. God is about transforming hearts not changing who and what people are. People are diverse and their diversity is beautiful.

                • Killing me with this bs. The point of the article is that Donald Jennifer Trump is not a Christian and that Jesus warned us of False prophets. The rest is bS and doesn’t matter IN typical KellyA Croneway style.. People used misdirection in these comments to avoid looking at the false bottom in the hat the magician is pulling the hat from period.

              • No, they do not.

                Your rape of Romans 1, 26-27 is sinful fraud, in context, these passages explicitly describe heterosexuals engaged in temple prostitution. Paul speaks of people with an innate sexual attraction to the opposite sex abandoning that attraction – homosexuals cannot do that.

                The Leviticus passages are about a married man cheating on his wife in her bed with a temple priest. Not homosexuals.

                Of course, the second passage calls for the death penalty, so in your cowardice, you’ve called for the murder of some seven hundred million people as human sacrifices, blood offerings, to your false god.

                Oh, and by citing Leviticus to falsely condemn homosexuals to death as sacrifices to your false god, you bound yourself for judgement to every single one of them, and exempted yourself from Grace.

            • When you condescendingly say “well-intentioned Christians” you do realize that you’re essentially including the apostles, the church-fathers and essentially 2000 years of church testimony right? Take for a moment to think about the hubris it takes for some of these scholars you speak of to come along nearly 2000 years after the church fathers and to claim they have greater insight on Paul’s writing than those earliest of church fathers like Barnabas, Polycarp, Clement etc. some of whom knew Paul personally. Sorry, but those commentaries your reading are not reliable and for every one of them that allege that Paul was not condemning homosexual relationships there are hundreds written throughout nearly the last 2000 years that re-affirm that Paul clearly was condemning homosexual relationships. Any scholar who denies this has an alterior motive.

              • SteveB67 you are right on with alterior motive – used to normalize and justify the sin. We know there are many types of sexually immoral sins and this is just one of them.

              • For thousands of years, people believed that the sun circled the earth. The church punished people who thought the earth circled the sun. The church was wrong. The church was also wrong about slavery. Should we continue in error just because important people of the past believed the error?

              • Explain to me, if homosexuality is so bad, why did Jesus never once mention it. He mentioned all the major sins that he knows to be wrong and evil, but not homosexuality. One would think that such a terrible sin would be mentioned by him. I think i’ll take my cue from the Son of God, rather than from you, Paul or any other so-called christian.

                • “Explain to me, if homosexuality is so bad, why did Jesus never once mention it. He mentioned all the major sins that he knows to be wrong and evil, but not homosexuality. ”

                  He never once mentioned slavery either, or pedophilia, or rape, or deliberately dumping pollutants into the water supply , either. I guess those must not be so bad, after all.

                  • The argument that you replied to is the rebuttal that is often used when people make claim on things that Jesus didn’t say and pay faint attention to the directions Jesus clearly gave. It isn’t helpful to take things out of context and then sneer at them with ridiculous comparisons.

                  • Duran, did you really just compare the relationship between two consenting adult humans…and a child molester and his/her victim?

                    Would you like to think that one through?

                    • So we should only allow the types of relationships permitted in the bible?

                      Ok. Lets play.

                      1: Man & woman. Wife subordinate to their husbands, interfaith marriages forbidden, marriages generally arranged and not based on romatic love. bride who could not prove her virginity stoned to death.

                      2: Man & Wife & Concubines

                      3: Man & Woman & Woman’s property. (ie slaves)

                      4: Man & Woman & Woman & Woman. Guess the Mormons will be pleased

                      5: Rapist & his victim. Virgin who is raped must marry her rapist. Rapist must pay victim’s father 50 shekels of silver for PROPERTY loss. I guess we know where Trump is getting the future Mrs Trump from.

                      6: Male soldier & Prisoner of war. In war kill every man, woman and child, save for the virgin girls who are taken as spoils of war. the wives must submit sexually to their new “husbands.”

                      7: Male slaves and female slave. Guess we’ll need to get rid of the 13th amendment.

                      8: Man & Brother’s widow. Guess that means my dad is in trouble for not marrying either of his three widowed sister in laws after my mom died.

                      Oh wait..his sister in laws all bore sons so I guess he’s safe then.

                      Well for now. My mom’s sister though married has never had kids so I guess that means my dad still might be in trouble if her husband dies and my dad doesn’t marry her.

                      Or I’ll suggest a compromise. That you conservatives never marry someone of the same gender as you because of your religious beliefs…and you leave everyone else the **** alone.

            • Or why not just go to the ORIGINAL source and read all the stuff in the 4 Gospels that Jesus himself said about how bad homosexuality and same sex marriage is, Right? Oh wait– never mind.

              • As always, you must read in context. In verse 3, which you carefully omitted, we learn that Pharisees were questioning Jesus specifically about divorce. In response, Jesus quoted the existing law on divorce. We know that everything a God does, God does abundantly and with great variety. In verses 11 and 12, Jesus describes the kind of people God created for whom verses 3 and 4 do not apply.

            • And exactly what would the scholars say about Sodom (where we get the word SODOMY) and Gomorrah? I suppose that was pedophilia too? With all due respect. Stop watering down the Word of God and start reading the WHOLE scripture.

              • Of course it isn’t pedophilia, it is clearly described as a gang rape attempted by all the men of the town, the vast majority of whom would have been heterosexuals. This was a well known practice of the time used to humiliate and/or subjugate people who were not of your tribe.

                It boggles the mind that for centuries, this bad behaviour of straight men has been used to condemn gay men.

            • Are you for real? Just ignore scripture please, but do not pervert it. This is not new to Christians, though. The devil in garden and tempting Christ also tried to use God’s own Word against Him. Funny this article uses devil in sheep’s clothing metaphor.

                • Dear Anonymous:

                  You keep coming up ‘Anonymous’ because you leave the ‘name’ blank. Also, you could put your email addy in with each post. if you have an avatar, that may make it display.

                  Blessings!

                  • I was coming up as anonymous yesterday because I did not realize the auto-fill was not automatically filling in my name and email address in the section there below the comment box.

                    It is still not automatically filling it in. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. Dunno why.

                    • There are other possible reasons, but I guarantee it will stop auto-filling if you clean your cache. Sometimes one also needs to re-set it to auto-fill. Some people would rather not have that feature.

            • “Paul was a gay homophobic”

              Interestingly, in his book “Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism,” Bishop John Shelby Spong speculates that Paul’s antipathy towards same-sex attracted people stemmed from his own self-loathing.

              I am not saying this is a fact, but it does fit rather well into the time and place from which Paul wrote.

              • Scott, I haven’t read Spong, but I was curious to know if he addresses the fact that Paul had to have been a married man? Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin which did not allow bachelors into their midst.

          • You can take snippets from the bible and make an argument for almost anything. It is the big picture, the overall message that is important. People who are gay are simply who they are. I don’t believe God will condemn them for that. None of us know. That is why it is called faith. Let’s focus on what most Christians know to be true and that is that Jesus stands for love, kindness, tolerance and forgiveness. You can’t say that, if being gay is sinful, then Jesus’ sacrifice was for our sins… except for gays’.

            • Except, Sherry, that is exactly what they believe. They do not understand that the only unforgivable sin is apostasy, turning one’s back to truth and embracing evil.

              Evil is being wrought in our nation’s capital and throughout the country. Apostates voted the evil in and want to dress it up as though evil is truth. “Alternative facts” and lies are synonyms.

              People who know what it truly means to follow Jesus must resist evil wherever it is found.

              • Is this one of those snippets? 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
                Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

                • Or it could be the prohibition about wearing more than one type of cloth. The whole bible, as a whole, is crap. The word of Jesus is something different.

                • Oops! You are using a bad translation. There is no word in the original Greek that can be legitimately translated as homosexuality. The only reason for it being inserted into the text is to justify someone’s prejudice.

                  • What is the best translation as I use the ESV, NKJV, NIV, NLT, NASB ?? I alternate between these in my bible study, however I primarily use the ESV, which based on my research is a faithful and accurate translation. However, which one are you using and what commentary so I can I do a comparison?

                    • I don’t think there is any English Bible that gets the translation 100% correct. I tend to use the NRSV, but if I have a question about translation, one of the simple things that anyone can do is go to BibleGateway.com, plug in the verse in question and flip through the various translations available. When you do that, you can see that even non-contentious verses can have vastly different translated meanings. If I find that situation, then I will go to an interlinear to see what the individual words mean, again, taking into account that that is a translator’s opinion of what each individual word means. For example, if you were translating the sentence, “I felt down,” would you render it as “I felt depressed,” or “I felt soft feathers”? A fun exercise can be to plug the original language text into Google translate, not because it’s going to be accurate but because it shows the limitations of translation. Not every word has an exact match in another language. When I need to understand something from the Old Testament, I will consult Hebrew scholars as they usually faithfully interpret without projecting the text forward into Christianity. If I want to, I can do that myself. When the Greek or Aramaic is in question, I will consult other scholars and theologians. I don’t rely on just one.

                      The versions that you are using may be translated reasonably accurately in other verses, but one must question any verse that says “homosexual” or “homosexuality”. Those words do not exist in the original language texts leaving one to question he motives of the translators.

                    • I was told the word homosexual was created in the 1800’s as a scientific classification. Therefore there is no direct word for word comparison in the Bible.

                      By creating a new word to describe something in a specific way someone made up a new way to think about sexuality.

                      In fact at the time the KJV was penned the word homosexuality didn’t exist. This should make people think twice about the nuances and meanings that have been lost in scripture. There are 8 different ways the passage from for 1 Corinthians 6:9 is translated including using the word fornication and adulterers. Those are vastly different in meaning from homosexuality.

                    • The sin in Leviticus 18 is quite clear if you read the passage in Hebrew. A man shall not lie with another man in a woman’s bed. The woman’s bed is her private place and is not to be invaded. Lying in a woman’s bed places the men in jeopardy of coming in contact with her menstrual fluids. That contact would leave them unclean (what the word translated as abomination means), which makes them unable to participate in worship.

                      As for Romans 1, starting at verse 21, people to whom the truth had been revealed went back to worshiping idols. Idol worship involved sexual acts. Straight men had sexual contact with other men. Straight women had sexual contact with other women. Since their nature was attraction to the opposite sex, this was not natural for them. There is nothing in this passage that says anything about homosexuality as Paul was quite clear in speaking about straight people. And there is nothing in here about consensual, loving sexual contact. I reiterate, it is about idol worship and the inadvisability of that. This is quite clear in most translations, but people who revel in their hatefulness have taught others to twist the passage to align with their prejudice.

                • C. Miller: Did you translate that from Greek yourself? Don’t rely on a translator. Read the original Greek and then determine what it really says.

            • Jesus sacrifice was for everone who would believe. Didn’t her tell the prostitute to go and sin no more. If you continue to disobey, Jesus tells us he will not remember us to His father.

              • One of those pesky “alternative facts”? Jesse did no such thing. Better to just not post if you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.

              • Nope, Jesus didn’t do that, and neither did God. That story cannot be found the Bible. There are people who deliberately misinterpret a story that way, but that doesn’t make it true.

            • Thank you. I have family that are from the LGBTQ community. And they are married and loyal to their partners. Their hearts are of their own.

              I believe that if a person is pure when they love someone then God is fine with that. But we all have sinned and this same -sex marriage is no sin. It is just fear that scares you and the other people around the world.

              Honestly if you are not in the bedroom with the people and taking part in their lives or marriage you have no right to judge them for loving someone of the same sex. And if they are not forcing you to be with them then back off of these people. They don’t tell you who to love or marry.

              Right now it is fear that rules most humans. Both Christian and non. It is fear that Trump is using to control people. If you go back in history you can see that Hitler thought the same way. Anyone who will go ageist Trump will suffer or worse die. Honestly would a Christian agree to bringing torture back? You know this will give way for anyway to be tortured right?

              But I will still pray that our country and world as we know it will not fall. It is just a matter of time before we know for sure how things will go.

              Open your heart and mind. Stop fearing those who would never hurt you. Start watching and listening with you heart and mind and brush up on some history from WII and before Hitler came to power.

              I pray that things will not go down that road. But if my dreams are true it is only a matter of time. I fear for the children I know too. For they are not white and it could hurt them the most.

            • Yes, and with that argument we should therefore overlook pedophiles. They can’t help but be attracted to children. i could go on and on. Pretty sure God isn’t sitting on the throne picking and choosing deciding which sins are”okay”. Do what you suggested and consider the whole word of God, stop watering down truth and get about the business of calling it what it is: sin! Then start looking at your own life and try living to share who Jesus is to this lost and hurting world.

              • That is not an accurate comparison. If a paedophile acts on their urge, the only possible result is violence, degradation, and trauma. If a homosexual acts on their orientation, the usual result is joy, happiness, and even love and companionship. Using a false equivalency invalidates your argument.

                Also, you used an undefined antecedent and vehemently called truth sin. I know what you meant to say, but that was pretty funny. I have also been guilty of undefined antecedents, so please don’t hear this as criticism.

          • Dear Anonymous. You are so very wrong. Jesus never mentions same sex marriage or homosexuality. Why? There was no such name for it in the first century. The bible was loosely translated from God to mere mortals, that were just beginning to understand Christianity. (The word christianity, did not even exist). The social norms and cultural bias at the time were strictly a middle-eastern, first century views on life. Do you still stone women “found” in adultery, do you eat shell fish, do you wear clothes with mixed fabric? If so, you are sinning. Do you think we should allow Paul to explain Jesus to us or should we have Jesus explain Paul to us? To view the God in the 21st century with the same lens as the old and new testament folks did is to stay stagnant and and believe that God is stagnant and static. God is truly a flowing, moving, living entity. Yes, God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, but culture and people do not stay the same. God knew this and I truly believe he expects us to “tease” out the scriptures with a 21st century lens in place. Same sex marriage and homosexuality is not a sin. People are people, just they way God made them. Expand your take on the bible, go ahead, God will not be mad at you.

          • Sexuality is neither a “disorder” nor an ” inclination,” nor will sexual acts lead anyone “straight to hell”.
            ”There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to destroy. But you–Who are youbto judge your neighbor?” – James 4:12

            “We also know that the law is made.notbfornthe righteous, but for the lawbreakers and rebels… (1 Timothy 1:9) … I urge then first of all thatnpetitions, prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving be made for all people… This is good, and pleases God our saviour, whonqantsnall people to be saves and to.come tona knowledge of the truth.” (1 Timothy 2:1, 3-4).
            Paul is condemning no one. Paul is advisingnthatnwe care for.and.love our neighbors, and pray for their salvation rather than take it upon ourselves to pass judgment.

          • It is a reasonable argument that the concept of a committed homosexual couple did not exist when the scriptures were written, and thus do not necessarily prohibit such unions, among many other reasonable theories. It is also reasonable to say the opposite. What is not reasonable is to elevate the sin of homosexuality above other sins — in God’s eyes we are all sinners, and a white lie. a murder. homosexual promiscuity or hetero-sexual adultery are all indistinguishable. We ALL need Grace and Jesus’ sacrifice equally.

            • Careful. When you say “the sin of homosexuality” people understand you to mean that the way that gay people were created is far more inherently sinful than the way that straight people were created. Those words encourage self-hate, self-harm, and suicide, not to mention bullying and murder.

              It was good that you later clarified that you meant promiscuity, but you also need to understand the context of that word. For generations, gay men have not been allowed to exist honestly. There was no way to maintain a relationship because being outed was life threatening. You could lose your job, your housing, and very possibly your life. Few people of any orientation are genuinely called to the gift of celibacy. The only way for gay people to satisfy that essential human need for connection was through serial encounters.

              The church presented gay folk with a Catch 22. Sex could only be enjoyed within the bonds of marriage, but they were not allowed to be married. The church gave itself free rein to label all gays as promiscuous (even when the person was a virgin practising celibacy) and extra sinful. Not very charitable.

            • John,

              I am not sure how you define Paulism and separate it from Christianity. Paul was the missionary who was responsible for the establishment and growth of the early Christian Church. He established Christianity in different geographical areas and was the apostle to the Gentiles who was commissioned and sent by Christ.

          • If you think homosexuality is a “disorder”. . . I know no other way to say it: There is something wrong with your heart.
            Jesus called us to love. To love each other, to love ourselves, to love our enemies. To take CARE of each other. To spend our lives loving, and taking care of the poor, the sick, the needy.
            If you spent more time doing THIS. . . I don’t see how you’d have enough time (or inclination) to sort out the people in church, and decide for YOURSELF who is deserving of salvation and who is not.
            Ohhh, the arrogance.
            I don’t take your word for it. And I’ve read Paul. All the Old Testament, actually. Even the parts where they say it’s okay to sell your daughter, and stone your mother (if she’s wearing a cloth made out of two different fabrics, or has planted her crops incorrectly). So don’t bring up Paul as a way to live. We all know where that road leads.
            If you’re a Christian? Try following Jesus. Try living by just focusing on what he said and doing it.
            He never ONCE spoke about homosexuality. But he spoke over, and over, and OVER again about love.
            And he also spoke quite a few times about hypocrisy. So. . . you know. . .
            Check yourself.

            • k8 I love the way you are accepting others (who disagree with you) as they are and minding your own business and leaving them alone!

              Geesh, talk about hypocrisy…

          • Referring to homosexuality as a disorder is the sin of slander on your part. According to Paul, you won’t inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, for you are a slanderer.

            ” but there is no such thing as a same-sex Christian marriage, ”

            Wrong, oh slanderer. Remember, you are not God. There are millions of same-sex Christian marriages. But there are no Christian homophobes, because anyone who teaches ‘homosexuality is sin’ is a false teacher, a worker of iniquity to whom Christ will say “I know you not”. Matthew 7:15-23. The evil belief you are spewing up all over the lives of millions of people produces murder, torture, rape.

            Think about that a moment, because you share the blame. Men and women are raped to punish them for being born gay or lesbian, because of the sinful heresy you are posting. That is your fault. You are accountable.

            The evil fruit produced by ‘homosexuality is sin’ is all the proof any real Christian needs to be convinced that homosexuality is not a sin, but a gift God gives to some people, but not everyone.

            “it’s very clear that same-sex sexual acts are gravely disordered ”

            No, it is not clear. But is clear is that your belief is disordered, because the belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ causes the murder and torture and rape of real human beings.

            ” Don’t take my word for it. Read Paul.”
            I have read Paul, and studied the passages that evil people use to condemn homosexuals, for years. Paul does not substantiate your claim. More importantly though, Jesus condemns your claim. As does Paul and other NT writers.

            By demonizing GLBTQ people, you show favoritism, and the Bible says of you:

            James 2:9
            But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

            The truth is that Paul’s letter to the Romans was about people like you. That’s why the end of chapter 1 describes you all so well:

            “28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29 They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters,[f] insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 They know God’s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them.”

            That is you and your peers. It is not GLBTQ people running around killing heterosexuals, it is people like you running around murdering GLBTQ people.

          • If I may, one of the reasons I am no longer Christian(I was raised Catholic, and was practicing Catholic into my 30’s, now identify as Atheist), is that the Bible apparently condemns same gender consensual sexual intimacy and does not condemn slavery. How is this the wisdom of an all knowing and all loving God rather than the particular beliefs of the people who originally wrote the scriptures?

          • ok, so i am both Christain and buddhist, and in my own studdies and meditations of the scripts is that these laws only actually apply to that of the higher up monastics. the monks and nuns who should and would practice abstaining from sex all together. they are not set for the lower class of the lay person. the lay person or persons have thier own set of rituals which they must obey and uphold themselves, but as for same sex marage, i think and feel that the only hell they themselves have to face is the hell and torment they get and recieve daily from other non believers that what they are doing with thier lives is anything but godly. for a christian to attack another christian bassed on these ethics is moraly wrong and unjust as well as i recal the story of the prostotute who was set to be stoned. if i recall it was jesus who came to save her from those who wished to condenm her. who were going to stone her to death. now do you think that turning away others whop believe in christ whole heartedly and wish to help serve others and the church of love should be cast out purly because they are different? i think not. this is why this article is so filled with truth. to be a christ, one must walk the path of Christ, and christ himself def did not condone the behavior mr Trump portreys to his audience of people. he def is an anti christ and hopefully he will chang his toon for the greater good of the country. i am very frightened by some of the laws he wishes to pass. i have read that he wishes to basically overthrow the need for due process of imigration being given an opportunity to be able to speak up in court, and that if they want to, they can bassically just grab anyone they might think is in violation, and take them over the boarder themselves. this frightens me for the simple fact that although i am American born and raised, but come from hispanic desent, that if they wanted to, they could come get me, and have myself deported because they themselves thought i might be illigal or whatever else. if thats Christ like, then who was Christ? to be gay, ot trans or whatever else was not wrong to christ, but it was fround uppon based on the negative implications it could hold for an individual, but it is now 2017, and science itself has figured out many different things about these issues, and yet still we chose to deny the existance of others. christ never taught to hate but to love, and that is what we should do, or should be doing. self included. i do not hate Trump while i find him to be a desgusting masogonist pig, i still hold love for him as a human and individual, but as for his political stance, he is a hate monger. everything Christ was not. it frightens me to be associated with him as an ameican, as a Christian for the very fact that he doesnt know how to love anyone but himself, and he scares me that he will infact ruin and destroy the lives of many. while other christains might hate me for all this, thats fine, but i myself as christian can not call that man a Christian. to me being Christian is standing up for others for what is right, not wrong. it is wrong to judge others based on different personal preferances. this is what i had learned from Christ at a time i felt i had no right to turn to Christ, i did, and i was told and taught to love more and hate less. at that time i was on my hands and kness begging for answers to why i was in pain and so upset, and it was that i found myself having to find love and acceptace of others if i truely wanted to spiritually progress, and i did. as for mental and emotional, which i mostly feel come from myself being Christain, and being told that i must follow this way, or that way of thinking not so much, but i at least learned a bit more about christ himself, and what it truely means to be a christian. its a stance of humility rather than arrogancy.

            • Chris. How do you embrace Buddhism & Christianity both?

              One is atheistic, merit-based, ending in Nothingness, and the other is faith based, eternal (physical & spiritual) life w/ Jesus Christ?

          • Homosexuality has been with us probably since the beginning. It is a matter of genetics and hormones being in the wrong place. Homosexuals are born that way. They cannot change anymore than I, a heterosexual, can become a homosexual. Jesus told us God wanted us to have life and have it abundantly. Would that God deny a percentage of HIS children less than full life? My heart says no.

            • Elizabeth 44, well said. But may I make a slight amendment? You reference the field of epigenetics. Current research shows that the environment in the womb has the ability to turn a gene “on or off”. One environment will encourage a gene to be expressed and another environment will discourage that same gene. This happens with many traits and not just sexuality. There is no judgment to be made in this biological process. When you use the words “hormones being in the wrong place” you place a negative value on the fact that some people are born homosexual. I am absolutely certain that that was not your intent.

          • “Agreed that people have these disorder”

            Characterizing homosexuality as a disorder is slander on your part, and as a slanderer, you will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

            “but there is no such thing as a same-sex Christian marriage, ”

            There are tens of thousands of one, your denial of reality is obscene.

            “and it’s very clear that same-sex sexual acts are gravely disordered and can lead one to hell. Don’t take my word for it. Read Paul.”

            Well, your word is worthless, and Paul condemns you as a slander. Further, Paul never actually condemns same-sex sexual acts committed by homosexuals. He does condemn sex of any configuration in the context of idolatry.

            People like you get thousands of people beaten, murdered, raped every year. Like trump, you are not a Christian.

        • Right. There are about five verses in the entire Bible that dabble remotely (and sometimes it’s pretty remote) with same gender couplings. Compare that with the thousands of verses about justice and helping the poor and not oppressing the weak, etc. The fact that whole denominations are splitting apart over an issue that is such a tiny portion of the Bible, one that you can only find with a microscope, shows me that the real reasons why people are against it has a lot more to do with their personal feelings about sex than it does with the Bible.

          • Those few verses don’t talk about same gender “couplings ” in the way we think of coupling because marriage has been an option denied to us.

            In fact most christians excuse and forgive sex outside marriage between two straight people quite easily, so, yes it is about how straight people feel about sex.

            Furthermore, most of the verses, if not all, refer to elicit sex, abusive sex or sex for favours, not a loving faithful relationship.

              • Anonymous,
                That would be the logical conclusion. He certainly has made no secret of his affairs and “fornications.” Not to mention his support (until he ran for the presidency) for abortions.
                Stan

                • Stan, not so sure that I believe in a literal Hell. I think of Hell as the absence of God. As a result, I don’t think of people going to Hell so much as thinking some of us are already there.

                  Conversely, I think of Heaven as the Presence of God and since the Kingdom of Heaven has been “at hand”, i.e. already here, some of us are already in Heaven.

                  • Gloriamarie,
                    That may well be, but I was only commenting on the logic of his proposition as it applies to President Trump. I wasn’t trying to get into the deeper theological issues of the existence or non-existence of heaven or hell.

                  • Stan, not attempting to get into a theological discussion. Merely attempting to point out that from some POV, asking whether or DJT is going to Hell is a rhetorical question.

                  • Ah i think one can surmise that Mr Trump is already in hell – he sure doesn’t look like some one who is happy and at home with himself – check out his eyes………………

                  • hilary, you wrote “Ah i think one can surmise that Mr Trump is already in hell – he sure doesn’t look like some one who is happy and at home with himself – check out his eyes………………”

                    Yes, that was the point I was making.

                  • i could not agree more. i share this view strongly! niether state is forever though either. i know ive been in moments of pure bliss, love and total acceptance, and other times completely agitated and frustraighted with life and how it is going. i thionk it is in those time that we sould be coming back to christ, or buddha, or whatever other belief in a higher power it is that we believe in. i am christian and buddhist, but i myself try to keep an open mind and heart to all of them.

              • Trump is not heading for Hell…he’s already there. Take a moment to think about how miserable it is to be a toxic narcissist who lacks any honest, loving relationships with other humans.

                • You are a sick man!!! You are so full of hate!! You are not a Christian. I disagree with everything you say!! You need help! You really to to read the bible!!

            • Dear The Lone Catholic:

              It’s rumored that allegiance to and following the beast into war [Re 13] lands in the same place. But I’m not sure anyone buys into that anymore…

              Blessings!

            • Lone Catholic- I don’t expect to change your mind, but I do want to offer another perspective to anyone who may read this thread.
              Simply put, I believe by faith alone that the Creator of this limitless and mind-boggling universe we are inhabiting for the moment is characterized by love. Love doesn’t worry about who you love as long as the relationship is one of mutual love, respect, and support. To think for one second that this Creator would send someone to a place of never ending torment is, without a doubt, heresy.

              • Pat — I agree with this perspective, would like to share a thought I have been considering recently…of course if we had a bonafide choice between heaven and hell everyone would choose pleasure over pain, right? It would be a Hobson’s choice. But we might think that way because we know God & Love — is it not possible that someone truly would rather elect non-existence rather than accept the reality and authority of God? Lucifer seems to have made such an incomprehensible decision…there has to be a real, bonafide choice at the end of it all or free will is a farce, and frankly the gospels would be as well. Just for thought.

                • Thanks for your thoughts Anonymous. I wonder if that is true of everyone. I don’t think salvation is a intellectual exercise. I have been scared about the concept of hell all my life and it never helped me avoid sinning. I never consciously wanted to go to hell in exchnage pleasure or the temptations of sin. Much of my sinning was a result of being out of control, weakness and self hatred. It was the moment I realized God loved me that I had the ability to overcome the sins I was struggling with and in addition to see truly what was sin and what was not sin. Then I realized that much of what organized churches teach is fear and judgement rather than love and grace.

                  Many people sin in weakness and many sins are not truly sins. But we are in bondage to man made church doctrines that keep us chained to the law rather than allows us the freedom and life that comes through Jesus.

              • Hey Pat, Don’t forget that the greatest attribute of God in scripture is his Holiness. Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty. It is the premier attritubute that all other attributes discribing God conform to, including God’s love. It is the only attribute discribing God that is listed in triplet, holy, holy holy, not love, love, love. This is paramount as it is God’ s holiness which demands judgement and atonement for our sins. Thus, the need for Christ and the covering that only his final atonement can cover for all of us sinful men . None can fulfill the law except Christ. Therefore there is also judgement for those who are unwilling to accept his free gift of salvation. Read through Christs parables and see how many of them address a separation between the lost and the saved. You will also find his own discriptions of hell as a place for weeping and nashing of teeth where the worm never dies. A read through Revelations will reveal a Second Coming of Christ with a final judgement as well, where yes God’s Holiness will demand a separation from those who are not covered by the blood of the lamb. Something we will all have to account for as scripture says that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Christ is the Lord. According to scripture not having Christ as ones atonement will lead one to be thrown in the Lake of Fire. Sobering for sure, but I am also thankful for Christ’s amazing grace and therefore also the neccesity to share the Good News of Christ with as many others as possible. Blessings.

                  • Anonymous, I apologize if I did not properly articulate the Good News. Romans 3:23 states that all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God, Ephesians 2:1 discribes us as dead in our trespasses and sins. An unfortunate state for all of us for sure. The Good News of the Gospel is that Christ is the atonment for our sins. Our sin separates us from the Holiness of God but Christs death and resurrection provide the guilt offering and atonement for our sins. Asking forgiveness of our sins through a faith in Christ is all that is needed. Ephesians 2:4 states But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love that he had for us made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by Grace. Good news indeed for all of us as sinners in need of a savior. I know for myself I am guilty of much sin and I am thankful to have a God that has rescued me through Christ.

                  • Hey Millet I just read this today, Jesus said in the Bible,

                    “I tell you there will be more joy in heaven over 1 sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance”

                    Why does Jesus say there are people in “no need of repentance” and what are there are so many of them ?

                    Could it be there are many good people and the doctrine of depravity is a man made idea ?

                    Do you guys read the whole Bible?

                • Millet, I have to agree with Anonymous where is the good news in your comment?

                  It says in John 3:16, For God so loved the world he sent his son. It doesn’t say for God is so Holy he sent his son. Holiness is perfection, love is what God is . God is love in perfection.

                  it says in the scripture.

                  God is love.

                  it also says :

                  There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

                  • I John 4:18 Please see my comments to anonymous clarifying the Good News. I hope that is more helpful.

                    Just to clarify, my thoughts to Pat were written in response to her statement that “the Creator would not send anyone to eternal torment”. She went as far as to say it was heresy to think otherwise, when in fact her statement is heresy and not founded in Scripture.
                    As far as the verses that you have chosen to use in response, I am so glad that you have picked some excellent ones that exactly illustrate my point concerning God’s Holiness and that there is an eternal judgement as found in scripture.
                    You are correct that an attribute of God is that He is Love, which is illustrated through John 3:16. You just left out the second half of the verse which states For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. This is the Good News of the Gospel. However, the second half of the verse describes the believer as not perishing and having eternal life. Again Good News for the believer. However, one would also deduct and have to ask what happens to the non-believer? What does it mean that they would perish? Why would a loving God send non-believers to perish? Verse 18 goes on to describe the unbeliever as condemned, pretty harsh words.
                    In I John 4:15-17 gives the proper context to verse 18 that you brought forth concerning that there is “no fear in love”. Verse 15 states whoever, confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God. Verse 16 restates this point and than in verse 17 it gives the proper context by stating that “we may have confidence in the day of Judgment”. So the no fear in love in verse 18 is in response to not being fearful of God’s coming judgement. The one I addressed in the first post, see Revelations 20:11-15. Again why would a loving God condemn man and have a coming judgement which separates the believers from non-believers? The Holiness of Gods nature demands atonment for sin or anything else that would taint his perfection and Holiness. going back to John 3:16 His great love for man is displayed through Christ’s atoning Grace . As believers we have full confidence through Christ that there is no condemnation. Again, Good News for those with a relationship with Christ.

                • I don’t believe hell is an accurate translation of what was said in the Bible. The word used described suffering in this life not in the afterlife. A big difference and an important one

                  • Rev 20:11-15 talks about death and hades ending. In other words God is going to end suffering and death once and for all. Those who lived wicked lives without repentance suffer a second death as punishment…not eternal torment.

                    >>In other words there are human beings whose existence will end in a final death and a final separation from God and an end to life as they know it <<

                    I think that possibility is enough for me to consider my words and actions. Are they honouring God? Am I helping others?

                    However I find many people are confused about how to do good and honour God because of what they are taught.

                    Woe to those who teach us to harm and do evil to our neighbour and woe to those that discourage people from choosing God and who turn away those seeking God.

              • Pat,

                The doctrine of Hell is clearly established in the bible. You must remember that our Creator is Loving, Just, and Holy who does not wink at sin. He forgives those who repent.

                • I am curious how you define this “doctrine of hell” as well established in the Bible. The closest thing the Bible has to our modern, highly fictionalised concept of “hell” is Gehenna, the “lake that burns with fire and sulphur”, a term, that like several other mentions of fire in the Bible speaks about ‘destruction’ (and/or purifying) never ‘punishment’. Even in the old, non-canonical Jewish tradition, where punishment was indeed dealt at the Gehenna (as opposed to the Sheol or Abraham’s bosom), such punishment was believed to last exactly one year.

                  To support the idea that the “lake of fire” is a place of final destruction, not of torture and punishment (let alone ‘eternal’), the very last chronological mention of it in the Bible, in the book of Revelations, calls it the ‘second death’, a place where even death itself is permanently removed from existence.

                  If you truly believe that God is loving and just, you surely would agree that he’d know that the eternal, gruesome punishment that is nowadays widely believed to be ‘hell’ is disproportionate payment for 70 or so Earth years of sin, even the vilest ones.

                  • Pylgrim,
                    The parable Jesus told in Luke about the Rich Man and Lazarus is very revealing (Luke 16:19-31). Just a little food for thought.

                    • It is not “food for thought” as the passage is very well known and studied. First off it was a parable, not a description of reality. Second, it used terms from traditional (yet non-Bible-canonic) Judaism , basically folklore. That’s why you don’t get a mention of “Abraham’s bosom” anywhere else in the Bible.

                      Third, even if the point of Jesus’s parable was to describe afterlife conditions (it was very much not), both Abraham’s bosom and the Sheol (where the rich man was) were a very different thing to what we believe heaven and hell be: There were two main currents of thought among religious scholars, both irreconcilable, both speculative and only faintly based on differing interpretations of scripture, most of it apocryphal. In one, mostly held by the sect of the Sadducees, God’s people were sent to Abraham’s bosom, a place of eternal rest (just rest, not recompense, like our modern Heaven) and all the rest to the Sheol, a place of eternal torment or complete destruction, based on different interpretations. In the other, mostly held by the Pharisees, both Abraham’s bosom and the Sheol (of Gehenna, as they started calling it) were temporary places (of rest for the ones in the former, of purification-through-punishment for the latter, i.e. “purgatory”, lasting no longer than a year.) Then, all the peoples would be resurrected in the End Days and reunited with God.

                      Note that these conflicting interpretations never actually came to an agreement. It was so bad at some point that the believers in one of the interpretations believed that believing in the opposing one was in itself a cause to be sent to the Sheol/Gehenna! So Jesus’ parable wasn’t trying to pick a side, merely use it as a setting for the actual intended message and he’s careful not to provide enough information to know to which of the two interpretations he’s alluding to.

                      What does this mean for us as Christians? That our concepts of Afterlife must come not from obsolete, contradictory Judaic folklore, but rather, from the words given by God specifically to Christians, i.e. the book of Revelations. In it, we are only given two paths: Resurrection and eternal life at the New Jerusalem (“heaven”) for those washed by the blood of the lamb, and a “second death” or complete destruction to the rest. Indeed, the parallel is established as eternal life vs eternal death. Eternal torment or punishment doesn’t enter the picture at any point.

                    • What say you about this ? Revelation 14:9-13
                      And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
                      Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
                      And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

                    • That passage is a bit confusing in its wording and must be taken in context. All through Revelations, a series of discrete but connected events are threaded together /chronologically/. At the point where the Angel makes this announcement, most people haven’t died yet, and we’re still far, far away from the Day of Judgement–literally over a thousand years away. (Note that present tense used throughout the announcement.) God’s wrath mentioned here has in fact been in effect for a while at this point, and its recipients are /the living/, so it makes sense to understand the torment described here as the one caused by the various plagues immediately preceding and following the announcement, through “day and night”. (There’s no day and night after all souls have been judged because the celestial bodies are no more. Another hint for this dealing with “current” events, in the visions’ chronology, not the afterlife.)

                      The only troubling bit, then, are the words “forever and ever”. A closer examination shows that what goes “forever” is the (likely figurative) smoke rising from these torments. I cannot tell you what is that exactly supposed to mean, but I can tell you it’s different from the passage where it mentions clearly someone being tormented forever (Satan and the Beast).

                  • C. Miller if you read everything literally in the Bible you will not understand the real intention and meaning of the original text and could easily draw errant conclusions. Did you say ,before, you know Greek? Then you must know the word eon or æon, originally meant: life, generation, or a period of time and was later meant to mean age or timeless. One of the problems with translating from original text is the problem of word meaning changing over time. So another understanding of ‘eon’ is a period of time rather than forever and ever. It could picture an ongoing time stretched over many generations, perhaps. In this case there is no certainty, rather the idea of eternal punishment is suspect in this case because — If you are a student of religion you will know that the meaning of hell and eternal damnation was greatly influenced by Dante’s ‘Divine Comedy’ not the Bible.

            • Well, there’s your problem. Listening to and trusting the Catholic Power Hierarchy aka mafia! The Catholic “church” has been corrupt since day one, why? Led by fallible men who crave power. Using their power to control people (“Inquisition” ring a bell?). Telling people (in the past) that only priests can read the Bible (another level of control). Biggest pedophilia organization in the world (both in terms of having pedophiles in their ranks and even worse, that power hierarchy protecting them and themselves for decades rather than the children they abused!??) Catholic? PULEEZE!

              • Jesus made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. He took a rib out of Adam inmate a woman. And told them to go out and multiply. I would like to ask you homosexuals how can a man being married, go out and multiply? I’ve never heard of anybody getting pregnant taking up the rear. Are from getting pregnant swallowing.
                In borrow woman how does a woman and multiply with a rubber hose? Text your sexual preference will be with a dog or a animal. 20 years ago you would have been out of town but think about your family and your brothers and sisters what a disgrace to them. What does it feel like to go to a family outing at Family Reunion?

                • “Jesus made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.”

                  Vot a mishegoss: if I had a nickel every time some dead-from-the-neck-up Fundevangelical said that I could build myself a nice condo on the beach in the Florida Keys.

                  • Mr. Amundsen, charge a penny and build your ‘beach condo’ about five miles back from the coast. Not only will it be cheaper, with the way things are going, that ‘beachfront property’ will get there soon enough. 😉

                • So, are you saying that sex is meant and validated /only/ by reproduction? That infertile couples are inherently steeped in sin, and contraception was invented by Satan himself?

                  • Not to mention that the command to go out and multiply was given when the tribe was struggling for survival. Now that the earth is struggling to survive because we have been doing so derned well at multiplying, it might be time to dial it back just a little. Side note: science finds that more homosexuals are born during times of famine because they are less likely to multiply.

                  • God’s Blessing?
                    HIV and AIDS Diagnosed – US CDC Statistics
                    In 2014:
                    Gay and bisexual men accounted for 83% (29,418) of the estimated new HIV diagnoses among all males aged 13 and older and 67% of the total estimated new diagnoses in the United States.
                    Gay and bisexual men aged 13 to 24 accounted for an estimated 92% of new HIV diagnoses among all men in their age group and 27% of new diagnoses among all gay and bisexual men.
                    Gay and bisexual men accounted for an estimated 54% (11,277) of people diagnosed with AIDS. Of those men, 39% were African American, 32% were white, and 24% were Hispanic/Latino.

                    • Any possibility that there is a relationship to the fact that gay men have great trouble accessing nonjudgemental, accurate, caring, and demographic-specific health care?

                    • “Not a single person on the blog has said anything about you and your choices in life…”

                      To what “choices” are you referring precisely?

                      “How about you drop the attitude and play nice…”

                      Don’t tell me what to do, thankyouverymuch.

                    • “God’s Blessing?
                      HIV and AIDS Diagnosed – US CDC Statistics
                      In 2014:
                      Gay and bisexual men accounted for 83% (29,418) of the estimated new HIV diagnoses among all males aged 13 and older and 67% of the total estimated new diagnoses in the United States.”

                      That may have been true in 2014 but as of right now the vast majority of HIV/AIDS cases GLOBALLY is found among HETEROSEXUALS.

                      Do your damn homework before you start preaching.

                    • Blood transfusions represent the highest risk factor per 10,000 exposures overall . List below are the sexual risk factors for the disease.
                      Sexual Risk Factors reported from CDC
                      Receptive Anal Intercourse 138 (highest sexual)
                      Insertive Anal Intercourse 11
                      Receptive Penile-Vaginal Intercourse 8
                      Insertive Penile-Vaginal Intercourse 4
                      Receptive Oral Intercourse Low
                      Insertive Oral Intercourse Low

                    • Well Healthcareworker the receptive anal intercourse has the highest risk and that could be male or female as everyone has an anus, so I don’t see where the stats bear up under your biased interpretation.

                    • Beyrer C, Baral SD, van Griensven F, et al. Global epidemiology of HIV infection in men who have sex with men. Lancet. 2012;380(9839):367-377. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(12)60821-6.

            • The whole notion that it is a choice or a sin is ridiculous, because it invalidates the biggest tenet of your faith; God is infallible. Man(kind) was created in the creator’s image. Homosexuality isn’t learned behavior and occurs in devout households as much as less religious homes. You are insisting that god made a mistake. You might as well be an atheist if you aren’t going to believe that God is perfect.

            • This “scholarly” source can easily be refuted…homosexual desires are not sins only acting on them, so apparently all homosexuals have the gift of chastity (talk to a priest if you don’t know what that is)…the men of Sodom were trying to GANG-RAPE two men, not seeing how it necessarily follows from that tale all homosexuality is wrong…The law of Moses says men with men is worthy of death so I guess lesbians are in the clear, but beyond that I defy anyone to prove they haven’t done something worthy of death under the law of Moses (this is why we had to be justified through Christ by PROMISE, not by the LAW)…the New testament passages quoted can be similarly criticized — any one who has lied, stolen, or had a hetero or homo lustful thought (remember Jesus said you commit adultery in your heart just thinkin bout it), BOOM, out of the kingdom of heaven…And its not even like all Catholics are in lock-step on this issue. Truth over dogma anyday and twice on the Sabbath…

              • WHAT!@%!#! Now gang-raping is a sin too? {mutter, mutter} If this keeps up, I’m going to become a Satanist. They get to do all the ‘cool’ stuff plus they have COOKIES!

                Yeah, yeah, yeah … I know … the Afterlife is Eternal torment … but I hear those are some REALLY GOOD cookies.

              • Anonymous, in the story of Lot, they were not men but angels and in the end they abused a woman. It is not about gay sex but the sin of lust.

                The only people with a gift for celibacy are those who are asexual otherwise it becomes a discipline which you can chose to follow if you devote your life to it but that also means shutting off a big part of yourself in order to remain chaste. God may grant grace in times when needed but as we have seen in the case of priests sexual repression turns sour in the body and causes one to act out just like what happens in prisons !

                • Foureyes, I would add that there are 2 other sins in the Lot Story: violation of sacred hospitality and abuse of the poor. Later on in the Hebrew Scriputres, possibly Ezekiel, it says that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not taking care of the poor. I could be wrong about Ezekiel.

                  About celibacy, in my studies of church history and theology, I have come to the conclusion that celibacy is a dualistic heresy that is not Biblical at all.

                  The Biblical model is chastity which has more to do with how we go about learning to love our neighbors as ourselves than it does with sex

                  Celibacy came about from the collision of Hellenistic philosophy and Christianity. Celibacy is a result of gnostic dualism. Not Christianity, not the Bible.

            • Fyi: Don’t remember the technical name of the rite, but until sometime in the mid 1700’s the Catholic church had a separate rite for same-sex couples that was considered equal to marriage and included the same vows.

          • Oh good grief nd gravy… are people getting all wordy here again about the homosexual thing?

            I note that it is usually men who are the homophobes. I can think of two reasons why they are so homophobic:

            1) They are afraid of being raped by a homosexual man. In which case, welcome to the world of women when we are taught to worry about rape from about age 12 and women have more reason to fear rape by a straight man than any straight man has reason to fear rape by a gay man.

            2) The homophobe for whatever reasons is deep deep deep in the closet and terrified to come out.

            So face your fears, let the truth set you free, and experience the liberation Jesus brings.

            • Gloria Marie,
              Beautifully and smartly put.
              Remember a few years ago when the Boy Scouts went all the way to the Supreme Court to keep from having to hire a scout leader who was gay. But when leaders of the girl scouts were asked about it, their comment was (paraphrasing), “no thanks, we’ll pass.” Even women who disagree with homosexuality tend to be more tolerant of it than men are.

            • I love that. Great post. I would add,
              that you may have noticed the most vehement evangelist against homosexuality ended up being homosexual. Guys get over it. I have a number of gay relatives and friends and they aren’t interested in you.

            • I swear you are one of the sane and well read people who reply to John. I am always amazed at how far afield these discussions can go – you always hang in there with even the most determined luddite. I appreciate you. Thanks – Mary T

              • Thank you, Mary T. What an enormous compliment, thank you. Yes, these conversations do go oft astray. I do my best to ignore the Luddites. I learned the hard way they are not interested in conversation. They want to bludgeon us over our heads until we surrender. But I won’t.

                I’ve learned to ignore certain voices.

                My personal troll (and I am so flattered that I have one because that means I am on the side of the angels) will no doubt point out to you why I do not deserve your compliment. Please do your best to ignore that Sad Sorry One.

            • It’s not that men are afraid of being raped; they’re afraid of being treated like women.

              They’re afraid of being objectified and subjected to unwanted advances, you know, how women have been treated for thousands of years.

              • They may have a point there, Lisa B. All the gay men I know never hesitate to sexually objectify other men.

                If they are afraid of being sexually objectified, why is that? I think it is because they are secretly gay and are afraid that if they are sexually objectified, their deep dark secret will be revealed.

                I say this: Let the light pierce us darkness so the truth can set us free.

                • When I was seventeen I was raped and beaten by two men; I was knocked out and woke up in the ER with my clothing gone and the doctor said it was a miracle that I didn’t have a concussion.

                  I should possibly add that the police did not seem to take what happened to me all that seriously.

                  • {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{SCOTT}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

                    I am so desperately sorry that happened to you. Did you know your rapists? Mine was my husband who very soon after was an ex-husband.

                    I do not mean to make light of rape. My issue is that I think a lot of homophobic men are afraid of being raped by a gay man. My issue is these homophobic men now know what it is like for women.

                    Not enough men appreciate it that we women are taught to protect ourselves from rape at an early age.

                    • My rapists were strangers to me. Without going into too much detail it was mostly a case of my being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not to say that I am to blame in any way but it is unavoidable that had I not been where I was at the time, it would not have happened to me.

          • My mom and dad were born in 1910 and 1911. Sex was a taboo subject with them. I saw my dad’s dick once, and it was HUGE. My mother once remarked that she thought sex was wrong and nasty—and she had no idea how God could invent something as awful as sex and still call himself a loving God. After seeing my dad, I’m not surprised that she would think that way.

            Truth is though. They were raised on the philosophical “truths” of the 19th century with regard to sex—philosophy that was often offered as the findings of science. You know. A bet has wings, therefore, it must surely be a bird. As late as the early 1970s, the rules of girl’s high school basketball were different from those of boy’s basketball—hearkening back to 19th century beliefs that athletic activities made ovaries sour up and become infertile—and other such garbage.

            Americans have a strong Puritanic legacy about sex—one that has been hard for many to shake—by shake I am not talking about going into sin—I am just talking about being able to accept it as a simple fact of life.

            • Maybe all of us baby boomers proved that sometimes people were just so happy to see each other after the war that sex became joyful and life affirming instead of shameful. What a pity for the generations before us.

              Even the Bible said it was a gift from God to married people.

            • Charles I think your story says more about your mother than it does your father. Penis size has little effect on a couple’s sex life; a woman’s vagina is capable of taking a very large penis and a man less well endowed will discover that her body adjusts to him easily.

              Unfortunately people born in those times were raised with extremely Puritanical views and it is not unusual to hear stories like yours.

          • Why was women created? You seem to have forgotten the beginning, go back to start and try again. The start is Genesis 1-3
            Also, I would not say that Romans 1:24-34 is remote. Also, keep in mind that the Bible is not written for those who do not believe, for the those who have trusted Christ and have the desire to offer themselves as a living sacrifice. But do not take my word for it read Romans 12:1-2

          • Homosexuality is not even mentioned in the Ten Commandments. Yet adultery, which is mentioned many, many times in the Bible is given 2 Commandments – committing adultery and thinking about committing adultery. You would think that it was a pretty major sin in God’s eyes.

            Adultery has been given a pass forever with a wink and a nod. No one screams about adulterers. Maybe it is like Giuliani said everyone does it.

            Only 2 are given high priority for screaming in this last election – abortion and anything and everything to do with the LBGTQ community. Oh, and guns for #3.

            Why?

            • You know what subject is discussed most often in the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament? Money and its right use.

              Do we see people frothing at the mouth over the right use of money? Nope. Why is that? Might it be because they don’t want to part with any of it and hoard it to themselves?

              • You are right Gloriamarie. When did it become a measure of a person’s worth?
                When did working an honest 8 for 8 become something shameful? I am so tired of hearing about a “real” job. I am tired of hearing how the wealthy are smarter, harder working, and have more integrity than the rest of us.

                I take things too literally I guess. I let all the negativity get me down. It is my failing.

                • {{{{{{{{{{{{{{Joanne}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

                  What you discuss above are more of the perversions that the GOP believe and foist upon people. They do the work of the Evil One and dress it up as lamb. When it is more like veal, considering how veal is raised and what it spends its days standing in.

                  No one can push your buttons unless you allow them. I recommend that you don’t even bother to read the posts of the potty-mouthed bigots here. I completely ignore them. It’s much better for my blood pressure.

          • Good message Stan, and on topic with what John Pavlovitz says in this Beautiful article. Guess I’m what he callsl a “bystander,” came across Pastor Pavlovitz’s prose posted an the wall of an old friend and fellow Jew. Pastor’s words speak to me. The Bible verses feel pertinent and profound. His passionate remarks are worthy of serious pondering. With respect to other commenters, I’d like to read your feelings on the article, perhaps your defense of Trump as a Christian. Rather than a tired back-and-forth about whether homosexuality is a sin. ( I imagine that in the 1st century there were as many people who lived with their same sex “best friends” as there are in the 21st century.)

          • Stan, it doesn’t matter how many verses the Bible expends on a subject. Since all of the Bible is the Word of God, it means every word is as important as every other word. So even if it mentions something just once – that’s enough.

          • Beth,
            And this straight, white, gray-haired, middle class, born again Christian male agrees.
            Why so many of my brothers and sisters in the faith have decided to stake the future of Christianity (and piss off nearly everyone under forty) on the issue of gay (etc.) rights is beyond me. Banning same sex weddings, or ordinations, or owning property, or any of the other things that have been proposed to ban them from, is one of the largest social mistakes of the last hundred years.

            • Stan, if you look at the financials of Family Research Council, American Family Association and Focus on the Family via Charity Navigator, you see that there is a very good reason to make that social mistake: Filthy lucre, Mammon, capital campaign–whatever you want to call it. They all make MILLIONS of dollars every year on raking up fear and telling their donors that the transgender bathroom monster is going to expose him/herself to your little girl, and that the “Gay Agenda” will bring about marriages between humans and donkeys. Bedroom and bathroom issues, including abortion and rape by ultrasound wands in the vaginas of women seeking pregnancy termination, mean big bucks for Christian hate.

              • Hi “Devout”
                I agree with you that those organizations stir up hate and fear among their followers, and I believe you that they (for the most part) receive hefty paychecks for their work. But I’m not sure that their salaries is the reason why they do it. Big one, United Way, Red Cross, etc. all get huge salaries too and they are (more or less) on the other side from the Family Research Council and the others. I think that most of the highly paid executives of anti-gay organizations could get rich in any number of other corporations, but they choose these because (with some exceptions) they believe in the cause. Listen to some of the people on this list, like, for example, “Lone Catholic.” He may sound a little hateful himself on occasion, but he’s very sincere when he says that people who commit acts of “Sodomy” are going to hell. And I don’t think he gets a dime for saying that. There are a lot of reasons why some people campaign against gay rights, but I think that money is pretty far down the list.

                • That’s right Stan I think it is motivated by fear of hell and damnation, but that fear comes form what the church teaches us to think about it.

                  There are many sincere people who are sincerely approaching this all wrong.

            • Stan, you said, “Why so many of my brothers and sisters in the faith have decided to stake the future of Christianity (and piss off nearly everyone under forty) on the issue of gay (etc.) rights is beyond me.”

              Well, I can explain why. It’s because homosexuality is the only sin that our culture is heralding and celebrating today. No one celebrates or brags about their greed. There are no organizations formed to support thieves and get the rest of society to accept them.

              That’s why we have to speak out on homosexuality – because people have forgotten it’s a sin against the One who created them.

              As far as pissing everyone off under 40 – what good is it to win people over to a Christianity that teaches nothing that unregenerate, unredeemed people disagree with!? Don’t you think it makes sense that a pure and holy God thinks in ways that sinful, unsaved people strongly disagree with?

              What you’re trying to win people over to isn’t Christianity at all! You’re winning people over to a false Christianity.

              When the rich man asked Jesus how he could be saved, Jesus didn’t give him a nice easy answer that He knew the man wanted to hear. He told him harshly that he had to do the one thing Jesus knew he would never do… sell all his belongings. Jesus didn’t say, “just love everybody and keep doing what you’re doing.” No. He told the man to give up the one thing He knew the man would least like to give up. And He watched as the man turned and walked away. He didn’t beg Him to come back. He didn’t say, “Oh wait!!! Sorry, I was too harsh. Go ahead and keep the things that are most valuable to you – but just start loving people more. Just please – whatever you do – tell people you’re a Christian.”

              The same way He tells us – we must give up our sexual immorality. Straight people must stop having sex with people they’re not married to. Husbands and wives must stop cheating on their wives. And gays must stop practicing the gay lifestyle. We ALL have to give up everything that’s valuable to us to follow Jesus. We must put Him above everything. When He says homosexuality is a sin, we have to say, ‘okay, I’ll give that up and follow You.’ When He says adultery is a sin, we have to say, “I’ll give that up as well and follow You.’

              Jesus was saying that in order to be saved, we must put Him before EVERYTHING. We must make Him the LORD of our lives and follow His commandments no matter how badly that may go against our consciences or how badly it might disadvantage us in life.

              Jesus never made Christianity seem easy. He never gave people the answers they wanted to hear. His goal wasn’t to attract as many followers as possible. His goal was to call His own to follow, love and live in obedience to Him.

              • Ok. So Jonathan this question isn’t necessarily directed to you. It’s an open question and anyone is free to answer. I am a Christian. I am a 59 year old lesbian. I would like to know what part of me must I remove in order to become heterosexual. What is the cure? I have repented of my past sins, I have asked Christ into my life, I’ve dedicated my life and service to Him. I was filled with the Holy Spirit and the Spirit moves in me regularly. Yes, can you believe it? Ha! A saved lesbian. I read scripture at least 2-3 hours daily. I pray and meditate. I attend church regularly. I ask forgiveness for my daily shortcomings. I love those around me, help the needy, visit the sick, am there for those hurting. And I’m still a lesbian. Now can someone please tell me what I have to do to be heterosexual. I would really, really like an answer. Because I am really tired of being judged and condemned. It used to make me angry, now it just hurts. I would really like to live up to the expectations of my Christian brothers and sisters because, if you feel so free to judge, you must have all the answers. So let’s have some answers. I’ve been waiting all my life to know whether I’m going to hell or not… Whether this seal, this deposit of the Spirit is enough. Do you know what that’s like? To hear the people closest to you, that you love and cherish condemn you. Do you??? Give me the answer. I want the answer.

                • Anonymous: Life Eternal with Jesus Christ is guaranteed for ALL who Repent & Believe. (this life sucks by the way.)

                  (admit your continuous tendency to do wrong & believe that Jesus is who he said he is.)

                  If you lack assurance, then just ask God. He is faithful, and He will tell you the Truth about anything you are struggling with. Read God’s Word. Pray. Listen to Him, then do what He says –not what others say, & not what your heart desires.

                  • Leslie, respectfully, that’s not answering my question. It appears to me by reading these comments that other Christians believe I can be fixed. And I am asking how that happens. I do all the things that Christians should do, and by my estimation I have a beautiful relationship with the Lord and I am grateful for His grace. But I am still gay. Now, my brothers and sisters in Christ believe I am going to hell. I don’t want to go there. I am asking again- how do I become heterosexual?

                    • I don’t believe you need to be fixed. I also don’t believe you are going to hell. One of the most loving, kindest person I knew was a Christian who by the way was gay and I believe that God and Jesus opened their arms and welcomed when he died. I just want you to know that not all followers of the Christ think who you love matters it is who you hate.

                • This is directed to Kathleen. I appreciate your comment and it certainly appeals to my humanness. And whether one approves or disapproves of homosexuality is really not my concern. I want o know how to become heterosexual. I have been to reparative therapy, of a fashion, with Christian and secular counselors. I nearly took my life due to depression. The very family members that condemn me asked me to cease the counseling. Now, I’m asking again. How do I become heterosexual since that seems to be the defining reason I am destined to hell. I have been celibate for double digit years but I know my flesh is gay. I would like an answer and not for or against orientation. Thanks.

                  • All the legitimate medical and psychological organisations have firmly stated that reparative therapy is dangerous, often leading to self-harm and suicide. It attempts to convince people that the very way that they were created is disgusting and extra sinful. There is no successful outcome to this torture. I am not surprised that you were depressed.

                    You are not destined for hell because of the way that God created you. God isn’t evil. The people that have been torturing your spirit may be going there because they have been pushing you away from God, but I sincerely doubt that you will. I pray that you will be able to be at peace with yourself.

                    • All the legitimate medical and psychological organisations have firmly stated that reparative therapy is dangerous, often leading to self-harm and suicide. It attempts to convince people that the very way that they were created is disgusting and extra sinful. There is no successful outcome to this torture. I am not surprised that you were depressed.

                      You are not destined for hell because of the way that God created you. God isn’t evil. The people that have been torturing your spirit may be going there because they have been pushing you away from God, but I sincerely doubt that you will. I pray that you will be able to be at peace with yourself.

                  • Jumping in the middle here, but “becoming heterosexual” isn’t the ticket to getting into heaven. We don’t all choose our temptations.

                    Calling on Christ your redeemer is.

                    Many, many people who were/are aroused by the same sex have happily married into heterosexual marriages. Visual lust and the matrimonial act are not the same thing.

                    You can’t make chocolate taste like vomit, but you can reduce your craving by staying away from it. The longer you go, the easier it is.

                    Start by avoiding the candy aisle at your grocery store. (or the magazine rack)

                    Into porn? get a filter. Have someone you trust install it.

                    Lust of any flavor can take us over, or it can be conquered with hard work, discipline, plus TIME.

                    You weren’t born speaking English, neither did you ‘choose it’. If you want to learn French, go to France and live with a 100% french speaking family on a farm with a newborn. 0% English speaking. That’s the way to learn french.

                    Chocolate controlling your life? 0% chocolate is the answer.

                    Lust (of X/Y/or Z variety) ? No TV, Magazines, or internet where temptation is possible.

                    The lust will fade…..

                    Copy/paste the link and take out spaces:
                    theguar drail.c om /ho me

                    • I am sure that this might work if lust were the problem, but it isn’t. We are talking about sexual orientation which guides who we are best suited to be in relationship with and is entirely separate from lust. Comparing the need for relationship with the urge to eat chocolate is not an apt comparison. As humans, the majority of us require relationship for optimal physical and mental health, and while I’ll grant that chocolate has some proven benefit to menstruating women, it is not necessary for life.

                    • Perhaps you should stop jumping in the middle. I would at least like the respect of having you read what I’ve written about myself and my Christian life. “Candy aisle”… Give me a break.

                • To Patricia, reparative counseling was detrimental to me. If God provides us with tools for our journey, salvation through Christ, Christ’s example, His Spirit, scripture, and others (Christians) including ordained pastors walking that and same journey… I have to say, it’s stacked against me. I have to look I others, their interpretations and judgment to guide me. I am told I am the ultimate abomination and I am going to hell. I have to surmise the only solution is to be heterosexual. I am asking again, how do I become heterosexual?

                  • You can’t become heterosexual. You can’t. It’s impossible. I don’t think God can change that in you without changing who you are. I don’t think that God wants to change you into someone else. This is why Reparative Therapy is harmful. Thos who have got through it and say they are healed or changed, must have some fluidity to their sexuality. We cannot use one person’s experience to hold true to another. So many people make this a life or death issue…. it is so unfair!! I understand completely, I have been there. My hope for you is you find some friends who will love you for the beautiful person you are. Rest your mind on Jesus who loves you dearly.

                  • You cannot become a heterosexual. Your orientation is knit together in the womb, as is everyone else’s. You might be able to behave as a heterosexual for a time, but you will not be one.

                    BUT . . . there is no need for you to go through that. You are perfect the way that God created you. There is nothing in the Bible that speaks against you. Anyone who tells you that you are an abomination because of the way that you were created is despicable. They are making it up to gratify some nasty need of theirs to feel superior to someone else. It is their sin, not yours.

                    A “pastor” who would say that you are an abomination is a spiritual terrorist and not a true pastor. A pastor is supposed to guide you in the way of Christ not push you away from him. I pray that you can free yourself from this toxic church and find one that celebrates you for who you are instead of denigrating you for who they imagine you to be.

                • Kathy, you say I can’t change. That isn’t acceptable. Again, I don’t want opinions, I don’t want to hear God loves gay me or how He thinks gay me is an abomination; I want an answer. How do I become heterosexual? And I might add, for all those who have the answer and are not sharing it, and my soul perishes? My soul is on your hands.

                  • You are asking the impossible. No one here can change what you are any more than we can change brown eyes to blue or make you 5 inches taller or shorter. You do not have an extra part to remove. The answers you seek are not here.

                    I am sorry you cannot accept the person you are. I am sorry you cannot let yourself love or be loved for the person you are. I am sure there is someone who has specialized training that can help you find peace. You deserve peace and joy and love.

                • Why am I asking the impossible? There seems to be plenty of Christians commenting on this blog who sound as if they have all the answers. Am I not supposed to seek their help? Is their simple reply to my question too much to ask, especially since my soul hangs in the balance? If you don’t help me, who will? The Spirit within my spirit speaks only to the love and compassion and efficacy of Christ but I’m told otherwise by humans so often. I don’t think a simple written answer is too much to ask. Nothing must be purchased, no closeness risked, nothing forfeited, no large amount of time expended. Gee. Where’s the love? Where’s my answer?

                  • You have received several answers all giving the same fact that the orientation that you were born with is not changeable, but you do not accept the lack of possibility. You can choose to accept the answer that you cannot change your sexual orientation, and learn to live with yourself in companionship with God. Or you can reject the answer and accept the torment of your family and pastor, and allow them to force you away from the peace of the love of God.

                    • Patricia, you know that I respect your contributions to this blog. It is kind of you to express your opinion and it does appeal to my humanity but the preponderance of evidence here would indicate that I am condemned. You may move on and skip my comments if they’re causing you discomfort. I guess its time to narrow the field and to hear answers only from those who know I’m condemned; an answer to my question please. How do I become heterosexual?

                    • The ones you seek your answers from seem to be mysteriously quiet today. You may have a while to wait. Maybe they all caught the same bug. Hope it is not too serious and they recover soon. Peace

                • To Joanne, I appreciate your comments as well but this is not a joke. I am not here with this question to create or ‘take sides’. This is in fact an honest-based question. I feel if my fellow Christians can reassure me of my demise, they could at least try and help me avoid it. This isn’t a game. I am asking this question and I want an answer. Because it is important not only for me but for many others like me. If someone has an answer, I would like to hear it. And not some snarky answers such as “claim your heterosexuality” or “just sleep with a man”. The first would be the most audacious lie ever from my mouth. I have the Spirit within my Spirit to answer to. I do not want to go to hell. Now somebody step forward and tell me how to be heterosexual. Good grief… I don’t have the answer but somebody’s have done a lot of talking on this blog and must have an answer of hope along with their messages of despair.

                  • No answer on how to be heterosexual, I see.

                    Thank you condemning Christian community.

                    I and many others like me will be there. In line with you at the post office and grocery. Mailing our tax returns at midnight in April. Teaching our children. Caring for you in our hospitals. Protecting and serving you in our communities and in other parts of the world. And yes, sitting shoulder to shoulder with you, praising Christ in our churches.

                    But no, for LGBTQ? there is no peace.

                    • Okay, this wasn’t aimed at me and I missed the start of this … how to be heterosexual when you are not …

                      If you are right-handed, cut off your right hand.
                      Blind yourself.
                      Sever your nose.
                      Puncture your eardrums.
                      Rip out your tongue.

                      All of the above are gifts God gave you when He made you and to be untrue to your heart is to be untrue to how you see and sense reality. If God made you homosexual, He did so for a reason. He doesn’t explain to us why you have a harder road than your heterosexual brothers and sisters. He did. Trust in Him.

                      You will love and find companionship differently than most of those around you, but that you find such love and companionship is also His gift to you. To deny this love within you is no different than to cut out your eyes, tongue, ears, nose and hands. You have already decided to cut out your heart.

                      What I am asking you to do is the easiest and hardest thing to do in the World ~ have faith.

                    • But James it is only a harder road because people say if you are homosexual you are going to hell.

                      The best thing that ever happened to me was leaving church and being around people who accepted me as I am. I found love and acceptance but never lost my belief in God. But I cannot practice my faith with other believers.

                      You have to leave the people who are condemning you to find peace.

                      This is why so many LGBTQ people travel great distances to get away from the communities they were raised in.

                    • Kansas, I was thinking it is the ‘harder road’ because the vast majority of the population is heterosexual ~ say 4% of the population is LGBTQ. It is tougher to find a companion.

                      Then you tack on all the issues of your parents, siblings and childhood friends not understanding you.

                      Tack on the legal battles you face for equal marriage, child adoption, custody, ect.

                      And … there aren’t too many movements condemning heterosexuality, while even LGBTQ struggles seen in a positive light are a drain on a person’s identity.

                      And … you have the wonderful concept of people telling you are spiritually flawed and doomed to Hell for being who you know you really are.

                    • James you might want to befriend a bull dyke lesbian and get to know her before you perpetuate a stereotype. (not that I am one, but you have nothing to be afraid of)

                    • Kansas, I was joking. I like poking fun at stereotypes. After all, if you see a well-muscled woman with short hair she is far more likely to be straight and has to keep her hair short for work, or simply likes it short, than be a lesbian.

                      Baring the one rather butch (not bull-dyke) man-hating lesbian I once met who was rather unfriendly plus me and two friends accidentally walked into either a gay bar on Lesbian Night, or a Lesbian Bar … they were … quiet … very, very quiet. I didn’t think they were going to kick our asses, or anything. Just we were the only three guys in the place and there were multiple girl-couples.

                      Back in the late 1970’s when I was working tobacco as a summer job, me and four White City boys pulled up into a rural, all-Black club. Same reaction. Everyone quickly stopped talking and just looked at us. When we finally mustered the courage to ask the bartender for directions they realized we were lost and everyone relaxed and went back to what they were doing. It wasn’t hostility. No, it wasn’t like Animal House. It was ~ what the heck are these five White boys doing here? Only later did we figure out they might have thought we were the five dumbest Klansmen to ever.

        • JESUS said:

          “why do you call me Lord and do not do what I say?”

          Homosexuality in a culture is GOD’s judgment against that culture. see Romans 1:18-32.

          This is where the mistake is made, idolatry. You have created a god in you image and likeness. One you can worship. This is not The GOD of The Bible. Your god is malleable, he conforms to your desires, and your social construct. This is not YAHWEH. He is Sovereign over the affairs of man, including who sits in the White House, as He chose Trump for America for this time period, as He chose Obama for the last. Each man respectively is responsible to The Almighty for his tenure and will answer to accordingly.

          As far a gays in churches, JESUS addressed this issue in Matthew 13. Satan trapes around this universe as an angel of light. Surely he will have “his” people wherever the true people of GOD are. GOD said homosexuality is an abomination to Him. You can’t get any clearer than that

          • Zelda, your claim is flat out wrong. Of course, it is based on a fraudulent but literalistic approach to Scripture, and under that, you are sinning just by posting in public. Women are literally forbidden to do so.

            Romans, Zelda, is explicitly about temple prostitution, no homosexuality. Ironically enough, you and your sinful peers attempt to force GLBTQ people to worship your idol of ego and heterocentrism instead of obeying God and following the innate capacity for love God gives them.

            You are a false teacher, the lie you proclaim gets people murdered, raped, tortured and brutalized, and all of that proves you are wrong.

        • We know they’re “in the church”. What exactly is your point? The concern is about the church being in them, seeing as how the lifestyle is scripturally against God!! Do you know your bible???

        • Can you quote me the scripture where Jesus states explicitly against LGBTQ; this is from the Old Testament and Jesus came to fulfill the law and preach love, kindness and acceptance of others. That’s my Jesus.

          • Mamalinda, you said, “Can you quote me the scripture where Jesus states explicitly against LGBTQ; this is from the Old Testament and Jesus came to fulfill the law and preach love, kindness and acceptance of others. That’s my Jesus.”

            Yes, you are right about one thing. This is YOUR Jesus. The one you imagine in your mind. The one you wish existed. But He is not the Jesus of the Bible.

            If He was, you would know every word of the Bible comes directly from Him. God inspired the writers of the Bible to deliver the message God wanted us to have. Jesus is God. So every word of the Bible is the word of Jesus.

            Condemnation of homosexuality is found in both the Old and New Testaments. So, it still applies.

            Jesus preached love, that is true. He told us to love God with all our hearts, minds and souls. But how do you love God? I John 5:3 tells us we do it by obeying God. “Loving God means keeping his commandments…” And one of those commandments is not to participate in homosexual acts. So, if you love God, you won’t support homosexuality in any way. You can’t, because it’s a sin.

            Jesus also preached the holiness of God, the wrath of God and the justice of God. God doesn’t tolerate any sin. God is love. But He’s more than just love. He’s not a one-dimensional God. He’s also holy and just. He can’t tolerate sin and He will punish sinners. Sin is that serious.

            • Jonathan,
              Very well said in contrasting the biblical Christ from a false Christ. The false Christ is an idol and is formed in the mind of idolaters so they can tolerate Him. There are many attributes of the biblical Christ and He isn’t just Mr. Lovie Dovie. He is Love and also Holy and doesn’t wink at sin. God’s justice and love are demonstrated at the cross.

              • I don’t think anyone is saying God is lovey dovie. That is an odd way to make an argument against the essential characteristic God is said to be which is love. Our knowledge of God’s attributes should deepen our appreciation of His unrelenting love.

                God is not a sexual being. He is a spirit being. We are sexual beings. In the Ten Commandments (which is recorded in scripture that God wrote with his finger) God doesn’t give any instructions about how mankind should have or have not sex. Rather he gives instructions about being faithful.

                • Do you consider Leviticus to be God’s word – reference Ch 18.? I know you do consider Exodus 20 to be His Word (10 commandments). These are both part of the Pentateuch with Moses being credited with authorship.

                  • C. Miller, have you ever read the scripture in Ezekiel that says,

                    “Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live.”

                    This is the curse of the law. Laws which we don’t even understand how to obey— what they are for— what they mean. These laws don’t have power to give life to us. These laws which make us stoney hearted, ignorant and separated from others. These are the laws Jesus did away with. Jesus came to free us from them. And, in that freedom all people who were enslaved by the requirements of those laws are now free to have a relationship with God without any impediment to his grace and love.

                    — this is not about our belief in the bible, it is about our understanding of the bible.

                    • Yes I have read Ezekiel. We are under the curse of the law and the only way we become free from it’s bondage is the blood of Christ. Those who are not covered by Christ’s righteousness will be judged according to the law. Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill every jot and tittle of the law (Matt 5:17). His perfect active obedience (sinless life) and passive obedience (death on the cross) were necessary for our salvation. In essence we are saved by works – His and not ours.

                    • C. Miller

                      exactly as it says in Galatians “Certainly all who depend on the actions of the Law are under a curse”

                      Also, you other point about fulfilling the law is a known contraction in the biblical text. Jesus did not obey the law perfectly he broke it on several occasions. Hope I don’t need to point that out to you.

                      And don’t bother writing a long apologetic on this. I have already done plenty of research.

                    • The civil and ceremonial laws of the OT have been fulfilled by Christ and abolished. The one aspect that does carry over is the moral law (summarized in the 10 commandments) and we are bound to keep these. The moral law in the new covenant is there to restrain sin and act as a schoolmaster which leads us to Christ and instructs us in Godliness.

                    • C. Miller you already said previously

                      “Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill every jot and tittle of the law”

                      No you are saying

                      “The moral law in the new covenant is there to restrain sin and act as a schoolmaster ”

                      but that does not hold up under the writings in Galatians

                      “For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace”

                      Can you not see how you have contradicted yourself? And can you not see how you are picking and choosing which levitical laws Jesus fulfilled and did not fulfill and then errantly saying we still need to fulfill the more laws… when we are told to walk in the Spirit.

                      Considering Jesus spent very little time explaining in detail the specific laws we should and should not keep rather he explained the law of love in Matthew 5. In my opinion you are making an argument which does not stand up under scrutiny because you are trying to make people obey the moral law to be justified when it is men who have created the division between moral and ritual law.

                      And lets talk about the ten commandments Jesus broke the Sabbath according to the traditions of men. As far as marriage goes the only thing same sex couples are doing by getting married is breaking the tradition of men not breaking God’s law because there is not LAW prohibiting two women or two men from getting married.

                      In fact (like the Sabbath) people are not made for marriage, marriage is made to bless people.

                    • I absolutely know that people can not be made righteous by the law (impossible) so don’t get me wrong on that one. Only Christ can make us clean. However, I do believe that the law convicts people of sin and brings them to the cross where they are set free from the curse of the law. If the Son sets you free you will be free indeed. We know that Jesus summed up the law with the two great commandments (love of God and neighbor). One final thought: love and law are not contrary, one to the other. Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments…. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me” (John 14:15, 21). Similarly, the “beloved disciple,” the apostle John, said, “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

                    • Hey C. Miller

                      you said:

                      “However, I do believe that the law convicts people of sin and brings them to the cross where they are set free from the curse of the law. ”

                      This is were you stumble because the Spirit convicts us not the law. The law does not have a relationship with our inner being the Holy Spirit does.

                      Ask anyone who broke a law- like speeding when there was an emergency, or who told a lie to save someone’s life. (I have done both). The law condemned me, but the Spirit did not convict me, rather I knew God’s grace was covering me, I knew peace even before my lips opened to repent of the sin, Jesus told me in advance I was forgiven.

                      Everything makes sense now that we have Grace.

                      All the paradoxes of life make sense now that we have Grace.

                      peace be to you, friend 🙂

                    • Kathy, I think you make excellent comments. I have always wondered how you can be a sinner saved by Grace. You can be one or the other you can not be both at the same time. Paul addressed all his letters to the saints at whatever church he was writing to. More I could say, but this is enough to probably get me into trouble 🙂

                    • Tommy,
                      Martin Luther Theology – “simul justus et peccator” which means simultaneously Just & sinner. He was a titan of the faith.

                    • Sinner saved by Grace – 1 Timothy 1:15 says “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. So, here is my struggle – If Jesus came to save sinners and we are sinners saved by grace, is Jesus’ coming and death in vain? The above scripture says that he came to save sinners, but if I am saved (and we say we are saved) What have I (we) been saved from if I say I am a sinner. If I am a sinner saved by grace then my sin remains, and Christ’s death is in vain.

                      I wake up every morning (so far) and I ask the Lord to guide my path today. I do not have in my mind to go out and commit some sin. I renounce sin and do not even want to be associated with sin. But, boy do I slip bad on some days. So – am I a sinner or am I saved??

                      Being a sinner saved by Grace reminds me of sin, reminds me of death, because the wages of sin is death. It is always reminding me of the sin I was a slave to and brings back into bondage. If I am simply saved by grace, then am I free from the law of sin and death to which Jesus’ blood cleansed me from? So I (we) are not sinners saved by grace, I (we) am simply saved by grace, being saved has freed me from sin that I should not obey sin in the flesh.
                      So my struggle is sinner or saved – I have to make a choice because no sinner will inherit the kingdom of God.

                    • Romans and C. Miller, thank you both for engaging me here in the comments.

                      I have found that the idea of sinner vs made righteous by God a paradox. Its says in the Bible no one can claim he has no sin ( 1John 1:8) and then it says a person born of the Spirit cannot go on sinning
                      (1 John 3:9).

                      I am asking each of you to clarify how you reconcile those two passages.

                    • Kathy,
                      I am always careful to not pit scripture against scripture. However, the hearts of genuine Christians (those who are truly children of God) become transformed so they cannot live in a pattern of continual sin—and this does not mean that Christians are ever completely free from sin in this life. In the flesh we are still sinners but we move away from willfully sinning as we become more sanctified as the Holy Spirit guides us. Just take Jesus’ greatest command to love God with our whole hearts, minds, and souls – who can keep that one for 5 minutes? Oh how we need Christ’s blood and the power of the Holy Spirit to work in and through us.

                    • C. Miller, my concerns are the assumptions you make about me. I am by no means totally innocent of making assumptions about you, in my comments. For example when I said to you “this is were you stumble” I was being unfair. I apologize for that. I didn’t mean it as a condemnation.

                      When you say you prefer not to pit one scripture against another are you are saying you won’t think critically about the contradictions in the Bible? Why is that ? Are you afraid to wrestle with apparent paradoxes in scripture?

                    • Kathy,
                      Yes apologies here and we should think critically about apparent discrepancies. I lead a men’s group and we always have lively discussion and debates.

                      Peace!

                    • Tommy I am pretty sure I lost the thread –your comment is on — oh well here goes–

                      You said “So my struggle is sinner or saved – I have to make a choice because no sinner will inherit the kingdom of God.”

                      Yes– I suppose you do have choices to make –but what if grace means we don’t have to dwell on sin anymore?

                      We can take our eyes of ourselves and focus on something else– something that needs to be done– or someone who needs help–or God who is our source of everything?

                      I don’t think about sin at all. Try doing that, Tommy, and see how freeing it is!

                      “Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens:
                      Who created all these?
                      He who brings out the starry host one by one
                      and calls forth each of them by name.
                      Because of his great power and mighty strength,
                      not one of them is missing.”

                      Isaiah 40:26

                      peace friend !!

                    • Yes and thanks be to Jesus Christ our Lord who propitiated (atoned) for the past, present, and future sins of repentant sinners who have placed their trust in Him. He has taken the punishement we deserve at the Cross and spared us from the wrath of God. I believe Tommy also asked what we are saved from and that would be the wrath of God. The good news is that Jesus takes our sin and receives our punishment and we are given His righteousness. Oh how we should express our gratitude to Chris daily!

        • Then you are not buying Christ. The bible says so many things. Please broaden your view beyond same sex marriage. You missed the entire message.

        • That’s your only comment to this entire article. I am going to guess you supported trump.

          The one thing you picked out, is one thing, compared to the many scriptures and points made about the person we are discussing, trump.

          You are disingenuous, as you did not speak about the matter of the subject.
          My father called this “throwing out the baby with the
          bath water.”

          • Romans 1 is not politics. The Bible is not politics. This has nothing to do with politics. This has to do with speaking the Word of God through the culture in which we live. It has nothing to do with politics. It’s not about personalities; it’s about iniquity and judgment. And why do we say this? Because this must be recognized for what it is–sin, serious sin, damning sin, destructive sin.

        • You’re missing his point. He is saying if you intend to stick to scripture with that (as we should) then there is no way this clearly immoral man should get a pass without a second look.

        • I do not believe in same sex marriage or transgender life styles and such but then again who am I to judge these people? I live my life my way for me and my Lord, not for you. And I think that you may live your life your way and it is up to you and your Lord in the end. I will not attempt to force feed my religion and beliefs on you and as long as you do the same and you are nor bringing harm to anyone else then so be it. Live and let live.

          • That is a good way to live, but to strengthen your statement, you need to change your first sentence a little. Equal marriage is a legal fact in many countries; not believing in this legal fact is a little odd. Similarly, transgender people exist without your belief, but each person has an individual lifestyle, just as any other human would. You could better state your position with a little more honesty. “I do not fully understand the nature of homosexuality or what it feels like to be transgender and such but then again who am I to judge these people?”

        • Rollie B have you even read the Bible in 72+years? You might have been attending a group that meets sings and talks about God but my friend I fear you aren’t Christian at all nor is your group part kf the church of Christ if it endorses your opinion. To say “same sex marriage isn’t christian” is a false statement, is to deny Christ and without communion with God you don’t know him and you are a liar according to 1 John.. there’s only one word for statements and opinions like that and it’s hypocrite. You profess to know but deny him with your words.. I encourage you to repent and get to know the man you’ve been hearing about for so long from far away.. homosexuality is an abomination before God because it violates God’s design and will.

        • Thank You! I know personally a same sex couple who are Christ followers! Amazing people, sharing God’s unconditional love, sharing that Grace through his teachings to their children!

          • I believe that God will have much more mercy on gay couples who think they’re being Christian, than on heterosexual ‘preachers’ who twist scripture/ignore Paul/ fail to read Matthew 24,25, & 1st Maccabees 1, 2nd Maccabees 5,6,7,8, to make it so.
            The Seleucid Empire/reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes was to Jesus’ day as fresh in their historical memory as the Civil War is to the United States today.
            Romans was written before, not after the Gospel according to Luke and the Gospel according to John.

        • That one tiny thing is where you’re writing him off without consideration as you boast about how long you’ve been a good church going Christian? You’re part of the problem. Trump will only create more hatred for Christians as a whole bc they will believe Christians are all hateful, arrogant bigots.

        • Church is the best place for LGBT people to be, but are they receiving?
          The sin is not in the inclination, but do they give in to the lifestyle God has called corrupt, or do they lean to God to remove it from them, through the shed blood of Christ, and then repent of the lifestyle?
          If you’re trying to say that there is nothing wrong with living a homosexual lifestyle, then you’re apparently the same kind of “Christian” as Trump – one of convenience, saying the word, claiming the title, but unwillling to abandon sin in order to walk rightly with God.

          • I will not say “that there is nothing wrong with living a homosexual lifestyle” chiefly because it is unnecessary. There is no such thing as a “homosexual lifestyle”. Each gay person lives a lifestyle that suits them in exactly the same way that each straight person lives the lifestyle that suits them. No two people on the planet live exactly the same lifestyle, although a gay person and a straight person could live remarkably similar lifestyles. And given that there is no such thing as a “homosexual lifestyle” there is no evidence that God called this nonexistant thing corrupt.

            • Ms. Brush, stop being so patently deceptive. Everyone knows how to recognize ‘the Gays’. They are all well-educated, well-read, are in excellent shape because they all work out regularly at some gym, are always impeccably dressed either in the latest fashions, or in fetish wear, and if you are careful, you can spot them using their special hand signals, nods and winks to convey their membership in their secret ‘gay’ societies the rest of us ‘straights’ can only imagine about in our dreams >>> I mean NIGHTMARES! – yes, nightmares!

              Or, you can accept they are simply regular folks … except those fierce-looking, crew-cut wearing bull-dykes and the big, bald, tattooed muscle gay guys … they kind of scare me … 😉

                  • You are an author so you must be used to adoring fans. I think it also shows that all of us are open to finding common ground. And you, with your wit and humor have the ability to make things we disagree about easier sometimes easier to accept.

                    • My favorite feedback ~ “You should never touch a keyboard again.”

                      It hurt. It really did. I didn’t open my crayon box for a whole week.

                      I was also once compared to David Drake.

                      I told them not to binge drink and drop acid while reviewing stuff on the internet as the internet is forever.

                      When I started publishing I swore to never remove any reviews no matter how good, or bad, and, to date, I never have.

          • Fargles, not so! I have read the Bible many times. Nowhere does it say I am owed free donuts. If it was there such a passage, I would have surely found it by now.

        • RollieB. What are your thoughts on the book of Jude, written by Jude, Jesus’ brother?

          “Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,
          To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:
          Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
          ——-
          Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
          ——-
          For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you.
          ——-
          They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
          ——-
          Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
          ——-
          And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
          ——-
          In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion.
          ——-
          They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
          ——-
          In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings.
          ——-
          But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
          ——-
          Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.”
          https://www.bible.com/bible/111/jud.1

          • Where in scripture does Jesus say that you should communicate with people thousands of miles away by using electricity and digital impulses, and yet, here you are.

          • Did Jesus say ONE WoRD about gay people. No. This was supposed to be an article about D Trump and other political issues. Once again, the hysterical right has subverted things and distracted us from the truth. Good job, the devil’s happy with all of you. As a gay Christian I can only weep and vow never to come back to this page in FB.

        • I agree, I’m not buying that brand either. I could care less whether a person is LGBTQ or straight…what concerns me is how they treat others…whether they live with compassion in their heart, or hatred. Their sexual orientation, their color has absolutely nothing to do with who hey are…and why should we even care? However, we are digressing…this isn’t about the LGBTQ community…it is about trump not being a Christian. He has lied about everything…why should anyone believe this lie? It’s not what a person says, it is how he acts that shows the true person.

        • Not every American is a Christian. ..who are you to put your beliefs on them? This country was founded on Religious freedom. ..but not just yours. That’s why we have separation of church and state.

        • I am so against the Gay Marriage. But it was George Bush you said, he would not uphold the Marriage Amendment, he said, he would live it up to each state to decided on Gay Marriage. He said, this because Dick Cheney Daughter is gay.

        • RollieB: The only brand that count is in the Scriptures (God’s word). I am sure in your 72 years you must have read it. We can’t go on our opinions or emotion but what God has declared to be His model of the marriage institution.

      • Why’s that? Jesus had nothing to say about. If it was important to Him, I would think that He would have mentioned it.

        • Lone Joe, He was referring to himself and the Gospel not a specific topic that is disputable. There are many things God has left up to us to learn about and discover. Yet the church makes those things a matter of life and death by unmovable doctrines in stone when God wants to write his law of love on our hearts. How we live are simply decisions we need to discern. We can let wisdom guides us.

        • ‘nothing to say about homosexuality’, implies that Jesus disagrees with Paul, Peter, and Jude (his brother).
          =========
          “It is written.”
          =========
          My friend, Jesus cannot logically be disconnected from Paul’s writings:

          His words, according to the first and second writings to Theophilus (aka Luke-Acts):
          ===========
          Luke 10:36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
          37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him [the good samaritan].”
          Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
          =============
          Acts 9:5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
          “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.
          6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
          7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.
          8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing.
          So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
          10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias.
          The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”
          “Yes, Lord,” he answered.
          11 The Lord told him,
          “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying.
          12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”
          13 “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem.
          14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”
          15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
          16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”
          ===========================
          Acts 18:9 One night the Lord [Jesus] spoke to Paul in a vision: “Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent.
          10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city.”
          11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
          ==================
          Acts 24:10 The dispute became so violent that the commander was afraid Paul would be torn to pieces by them.
          He ordered the troops to go down and take him away from them by force and bring him into the barracks.
          11 The following night the Lord [Jesus] stood near Paul and said,
          “Take courage! As you have testified about me in Jerusalem, so you must also testify in Rome.”
          ======================
          Paul spoke under the authority of Jesus Christ. To say otherwise is blasphemy, heresy.

          • Romans 12 – Well said and it should be obvious that Paul’s teaching is completely in sync with Christ’s. All scripture is God’s truth. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NLT) All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.

          • Jesus said according to scripture …you can say anything against man but do not speak against the Holy Spirit….Therefore it is not blasphemous to say Paul made mistakes or some of his writings had errors in them. Pauls letter were transcribed and for all we know local deacons or others added things to the letters. After all they were only meant to be letters for instruction to the congregations and not intended to be ‘Holy’ text (a good New Testament history course will reveal those discrepancies.) In fact those who are taught at Bible colleges are not taught proper historical and archaeological classes on the scriptures instead they are taught the doctrine of the denomination which owns the school.

            Paul was human not a god, he was imperfect and he admits he did not see everything clearly. Therefore we can separate things Paul said from things Jesus said and the things Moses said and so on.

            • “Pauls letter were transcribed and for all we know local deacons or others added things to the letters.”
              =========
              Some he wrote with his own hand, (2 Thessalonians 3:17 NIV
              I, Paul, write this greeting in my own hand, which is the distinguishing mark in all my letters. This is how I write.)
              And some he dictated, as is indicated in the text:
              ============
              Romans was dictated to Tertius while Paul was in Corinth c. 56 AD:
              ==========
              Romans 16:21 – 23
              21 Timothy, my co-worker, sends his greetings to you, as do Lucius, Jason and Sosipater, my fellow Jews.
              22 I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord.
              23 Gaius, whose hospitality I and the whole church here enjoy, sends you his greetings.
              ==========
              2nd Thessalonians was his second of all his writings… so when he said “All” he meant all of his letters up to that point,
              =============
              “for all we know local deacons or others added things to the letters”
              ==============
              I can assure you that the ‘text has been tampered with/ we can’t trust it’ narrative is based on things that are simply not true. I know this because I swallowed bad information for years.
              ==================
              I know enough Greek to be “dangerous” (ha! enough to show my ignorance, plus enough to do the research and find answers)
              ==========
              And I can assure you that the text *is* reliable.
              ======
              See greeknewtestament.net
              ======
              and to take a look at the manuscripts go here:
              (one example)
              http://www.csntm.org/manuscript/View/GA_P46_Mich

              • HI there 🙂

                I always find it interesting when someone argues with me- about a point I never made.

                The letters of Paul were not written as Holy text rather as instructions to the churches and then transcribed and circulated. Who is to say that the deacons did not add things or extrapolate from Paul’s instructions their own specific concerns. We know through study of the letters not all letters were written by Paul (below is a quote from, ‘New Testament History and Literature’ by Dale B. Martin, Yale University Press, 2012. )

                “We have to remind ourselves that there were no printing presses. Whenever one church received a copy of one of Paul’s letters, they would have scribes, sometimes slaves, since slaves often were trained as scribes, make copies of the letter. That church might keep the original copy it received and send the copy it made to someone else.”

                In addition this professor of Religious Studies at Yale University writes:

                ” …Colossians was not actually written by Paul, but by one of his disciples after Paul’s death.”

                furthermore;

                “…Ephesians was also not written by Paul…some ancient manuscripts lack the address ‘ To the Ephesians’ and it seems in other letters the letter was addressed to a different city…Paul’s letters were circulating, new ones been written in his name and added to the circulation, and all were being copied, recopied and circulated. [those letters] … forged in Paul’s name, as his model: an imitation imitating another imitator imitating Paul…the letters became so famous and respected, at least in some circles of Christianity, that they themselves were called scripture”

                The author says it was only Jewish text that was referred to as scripture not these letters. People took it upon themselves to says these were scripture not the Apostles.

                It’s like a rumour getting started.

                I agree the texts are reliable and professors of history and religion studies have shown through the evidence of text the true evolution of letters becoming scripture outside of the authors intent.

                This should be a guide to understanding all scripture. The famous quote in Timothy

                “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” does not claim scripture is absolute verbatim God’s spoken word rather it’s claim is scripture is profitable and wise for instruction. Instructions which are inspired by God but translated though a mind of a person at one particular time in historical context.
                WE have moved beyond ancient society and structure which were oppressive and patriarchal. We can see the Bible in light of that.

                The difference you and I have in this discussion is that you are assuming scripture is directly channeling by God through Paul’s pen and I am being realistic in that Paul admits to his own limited thinking and it was not always Paul holding the pen.

                Paul wrote according to the Bible “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

                Paul did the best he can with the knowledge of God he had in the environment he lived in, just as every other faithful servant of God, who knew God and yet made mistakes and poor decisions along the way and did some good as well.

                In fact the flawed humanity of Abraham, Moses, David, Peter and Paul should teach us never to claim we know absolutes rather we claim faith in God’s mercy and grace.

                • Thank you. I’ve explored all those questions of authorship myself, having gone back to the earliest manuscripts. I’ve read plenty of commentaries from the oodles of scholars who question Pauline authorship. I myself questioned the authorship of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

                  But after intense personal study, over the past 16 months or so, I have come to another conclusion.

                  (By the way, no I do not believe Paul was in a sense ‘channeling’ and writing words he was spoon fed. But I do believe that Jesus specifically chose Paul, based on his intense knowledge of the scriptures and I do believe, based on his writings, that he believed he spoke ‘the words of God’.

                  The church in Corinth questioned him on this. (II Corinthians chapter 13)

                  “In fact the flawed humanity of Abraham, Moses, David, Peter and Paul should teach us never to claim we know absolutes rather we claim faith in God’s mercy and grace.”

                  But where absolutes are claimed (as in sexuality) then Christians should claim them .

                  I can’t address every point at this moment… but I’d encourage you to read the Pauline epistles in the chronological order in which they were written:

                  (Read Acts 13-28 as the backdrop)
                  1st Thess
                  2nd Thess
                  1st Corinthians
                  2nd Corinthians
                  Romans
                  All of the above were written before Paul, Luke and Aristarchus traveled under guard to Rome.

                  Then read the ‘prison epistles’
                  Philippians,
                  Colossians
                  Philemon
                  Ephesians

                  Then following his release from Rome in 62 AD,
                  read
                  1st Timothy
                  Titus
                  2nd Timothy.

                  If you want, read them in backwards order. 2nd Timothy was written sometime before he was executed.

                  Be sure to visit GreekNewtestament.net and read the opening page.

                • “The author says it was only Jewish text that was referred to as scripture not these letters. People took it upon themselves to says these were scripture not the Apostles.”

                  I disagree. Paul quoted Luke calling it scripture. And he was there when Luke wrote it.

                  ​———————-
                  Deuteronomy 25:4
                  “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.”
                  —————
                  (written c. 56 AD)
                  1 Corinthians 9:9
                  “For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned?”
                  ——————–
                  (written c. 60-62 AD)
                  Luke 10:7
                  “Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.”
                  ————————-
                  (written c. 64-66 AD)
                  1 Timothy 5:18
                  For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.”

                • “At the distance of two centuries after the autograph, of which, owing to the results of persecution, we have no complete manuscript remains. We have as many as eighteen second-century manuscripts of the New Testament, sixty-four from the third, and forty-eight from the fourth. Papyrus Ƿ52, the earliest extant record of a canonical New Testament text, is dated somewhere between 117 AD and 138 AD, that is about three decades after the autograph. Currently, 5,838 Greek manuscripts (fragments or complete) of the New Testament have been catalogued, of which 128 are papyri, 322 are majuscules, 2,926 are minuscules and 2,462 are lectionary manuscripts, i.e., manuscripts in which the text of the New Testament books is divided into separate pericopes. The immense amount of the manuscripts exceeds all other ancient documents by hundreds of times. In addition, there are over 15,000 manuscripts in Latin, Armenian, Syriac, Coptic, Gothic, Georgian, and Ethiopic versions. The earliest church fathers show themselves in some sense guardians of the text, and ready to distinguish between the common and the best and oldest copies. There are more than one million quotations of the New Testament by the church fathers. Indeed, so extensive are these citations that if all other sources for the text of the New Testament were destroyed, they would be sufficient alone in reconstructing the entire New Testament.”
                  from greeknewtestament.net

      • Saying something should be legal is much different from saying it is “right,” or even supporting it.
        And Jesus does not call us to govern people…
        He doesn’t call us to “care” so passionately about the legalization of gay marriage. The emphasis placed on gay marriage by Christians is entirely emotional and not a commanded passion.
        Jesus commands us to feed the hungry, visit the improsoned, open our doors to the suffering… speak for the oppressed.
        And until we can find in Hos Word where He has called us to reign as lawmakers, we should take His blatant commands most seriously and RAIN compassion and love on this entire earth.

      • Supporting a wrong ethic (assuming it is wrong) does not invalidate saving faith. If it did, which of us have pure enough theology, doctrine, and ethics to qualify as Christian?

        • I guess it is time to offer this list again, since once more we have veered off the subject and into homosexuality.

          Read, educate yourselves, get some actual facts.

          Reasonable and Holy: Engaging Same-Sexuality
          by Tobias Stanislas Haller
          Reasonable and Holy addresses the conflict over homosexuality within the Anglican tradition, demonstrating that the church is able to provide for and support faithful and loving relationships between persons of the same sex, not as a departure from that tradition, but as a reasonable extension of it. It offers a carefully argued, but accessible means of engagement with Scripture, the Jewish and Christian traditions, and the use of reason in dealing with the experience and lives of fellow- Christians. Unlike most reflections on the topic of homosexuality, Reasonable and Holy examines same-sex relationships through the lens of the traditional teaching on the ends or goods of marriage: procreation, union, the upbuilding of society, the symbolic representation of Christ and the Church, and the now often unmentioned remedy for fornication. Throughout, it responds to objections based on reason, tradition and Scripture. Based on a series of popular blog posts, it includes a number of independent, but related resources in the form of side-bars and single-page expansions of particular themes, suitable for reproduction as handouts.

          God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships
          by Matthew Vines
 As a young Christian man, Matthew Vines harbored the same basic hopes of most young people: to some-day share his life with someone, to build a family of his own, to give and receive love. But when he realized he was gay, those hopes were called into question. The Bible, he’d been taught, condemned gay relationships.

          Feeling the tension between his understanding of the Bible and the reality of his same-sex orientation, Vines devoted years of intensive research into what the Bible says about homosexuality. With care and precision, Vines asked questions such as:

          • Do biblical teachings on the marriage covenant preclude same-sex marriage or not?
          • How should we apply the teachings of Jesus to the gay debate?
          • Can celibacy be a calling when it is mandated, not chosen?
          • What did Paul have in mind when he warned against same-sex relations?

          Unique in its affirmation of both an orthodox faith and sexual diversity, God and the Gay Christian has sparked heated debate, sincere soul search­ing, and widespread cultural change on the issue of what it means to be a faithful gay Christian.

          Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe
          by John Boswell
          Both highly praised and intensely controversial, this brilliant book produces dramatic evidence that at one time the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches not only sanctioned unions between partners of the same sex, but sanctified them–in ceremonies strikingly similar to heterosexual marriage ceremonies.

          Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality: Gay People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the Fourteenth Century
          by John Boswell
          John Boswell’s National Book Award–winning study of the history of attitudes toward homosexuality in the early Christian West was a groundbreaking work that challenged preconceptions about the Church’s past relationship to its gay members—among them priests, bishops, and even saints—when it was first published thirty-five years ago. The historical breadth of Boswell’s research (from the Greeks to Aquinas) and the variety of sources consulted make this one of the most extensive treatments of any single aspect of Western social history.

          Now in this thirty-fifth anniversary edition with a new foreword by leading queer and religious studies scholar Mark D. Jordan, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality is still fiercely relevant. This landmark book helped form the disciplines of gay and gender studies, and it continues to illuminate the origins and operations of intolerance as a social force.

          Gay Unions:In the light of Scripture, Tradition and Reason.
          Rev. Gray Temple (Jr.)
          Gray Temple presents the argument for the sacramental equality of gay and lesbian couples, which is to say they are entitled to full participation in the sacraments, including Marriage. Gray Temple bases his discussion on the Anglican concept of discerning the will of God through Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. In the argument from Scripture, Gray Temple’s basic premise is that we cannot presume to know what the Bible says to us if we do not understand what the biblical writers thought they were saying. He discusses the ways in which the concept of sexuality in the minds of biblical writers was very different than ours. He carefully analyzes the most often-cited biblical passages assumed to prohibit homosexual activity and shows why they are not saying what we think they are saying. In the argument from Tradition, Gray analyzes the roots of various traditions coming to the conclusion that traditions generally evolve to maintain privilege. Tradition has been used, for example to bar women from ordination. We are veering dangerously away from the Anglican tradition of the via media. In the argument from Reason, he presents answers to assumptions about homosexuality both from an impassioned liberal stance and from a stance designed to lead to a dialogue engaging the hopes and fears of the conservative and liberal sides.

          As a liberal charismatic who prayerfully came to the conclusion that his homophobia was not a stance favored by God, Temple is in a unique position to take on this topic. Gray Temple deeply understands the ethos of conservatism and his understanding of that ethos provokes him to engage conservative arguments with rigor and sympathy.

Gay and Christian? Yes!
          by Rev. William H. Carey
          Can a person be Gay and Christian? Many churches say no. Many quote Bible passages that make it appear that God condemns homosexuality. But if we take a closer look, reading the scripture in the original Hebrew and Greek, we discover that God never condemned homosexuality, and that same-sex marriage existed in Bible times.

          Hounded by God: A Gay Man’s Journey to Self-Acceptance, Love , and Relationship, by Joseph Gentilini
          is based on years of journals that this spiritual gay man kept.  It chronicles his coming out experiences, dealings with family and friends,  his commitment to his partner, Leo Radel, and, most importantly, his relationship with God.

          Confessions of a Gay Married Priest: A Spiritual Journey by Maurice Monette,
          who was a member of a religious order for 30 years, and has been married to his partner for 24 years.  The book is an autobiography which chronicles the high points and low points of the spiritual road that Monette trod.  The book has been praised by several high-profile Catholic leaders.

          Bible, Gender, Sexuality: Reframing the Church’s Debate on Same-Sex Relationships by James V. Brownson

          This thought-provoking book by James Brownson develops a broad, cross-cultural sexual ethic from Scripture, locates current debates over homosexuality in that wider context, and explores why the Bible speaks the way it does about same-sex relationships.

          Fairly presenting both sides in this polarized debate — “traditional” and “revisionist” — Brownson conscientiously analyzes all of the pertinent biblical texts and helpfully identifies “stuck points” in the ongoing debate. In the process, he explores key concepts that inform our understanding of the biblical texts, including patriarchy, complementarity, purity and impurity, honor and shame. Central to his argument is the need to uncover the moral logic behind the text.

          Written in order to serve and inform the ongoing debate in many denominations over the questions of homosexuality, Brownson’s in-depth study will prove a useful resource for Christians who want to form a considered opinion on this important issue.

          • Yep. Look at the leaders and martyrs of the Church in the first two centuries and then the next two. You see a lot less women as the Church went ‘mainstream’. They were ‘muscled-out’ by the men.

            The Roman, Greek and Near Eastern Worlds were largely patriarchal so the early Church appealed to the the downtrodden, outcast and the lowest order ~ slaves, poor and women. Combined with the fact that women of wealth families were still rather well educated and women quickly rose up in importance in the Early Church.

            When the Church gained mainstream acceptance, the secular authorities, invested in the patriarchal systems, had no desire to see even gender-equality in the Church so the Church conformed to societal norms. They even tried to ‘clean up’ their past.

            Later Germanic overlords were disinclined to alter the status quo.

            As a side effect of this, several Greek schools of philosophical thought taught some truly fine female philosophers … so the Christian authorities shut them down. We wold be centuries upon centuries regain this lost lore.

        • And he never uttered one word about homosexuality, Claudia. One might be forgiven for thinking that if it were really all that important that 2 adults find love with another adult of their own gender and Jesus didn’t like it that Jesus would speak up. But not one word in the Gospels.

          • Gloriamarie:

            Jesus spoke about Men, Women, & Sex within the confines of Marriage. (MT 19:4-5)

            ‘Do you not know that, from the beginning, the Creator made them Male & Female? … A Man is to leave his Parents, (which has the premise of Male & Female parents united in Marriage) and join his Wife”. (which is based on the premise of a Man marrying a Woman.)

            I disagree with changing the definitions of ‘Man’, ‘Woman’, & ‘Marriage’ because I don’t think it was ignorance on Jesus’ part, that he left out the union of two men, or two women. I think he knew exactly what He was saying & His tone was decidedly adamant.

            • Hmmm…. okay, well, I disagree! The Bible was written a long time ago, times have changed, people have changed…

              I believe two VERY important things apply here that you simply MUST be forgetting: 1) God would NOT want us, as his Christian people, to become stagnant, unwavering, and judgmental of others around us… it’s NOT Christlike. 2) God makes us all, even those who identify as a part of the LGBTQ+ community, and I don’t know about you, but MY God doesn’t make mistakes so he must have INTENDED to MAKE them as well.

              • Rene: John P is proud of the fact that he ‘lives out-loud the red letters of the bible’. But, he excludes Jesus’ ‘red-letter’ words on Sex & Marriage.

                Believers know that God’s word always was, is, and always will be. It does not change.

                • what are the red letter words on sex and marriage except faithfulness and don’t lust after a woman?

                  Be faithful in your relationships and avoid the lust of the eyes.

                  in others words be respectful.

                  • –the Red Letter words, direct from Jesus’ lips…’do you not know that the Creator made them Male & Female!? A Man (biologically male) is to leave his Parents (who are 1 Man , 1 Woman , married in God’s eyes) and join his own Wife ( biologically female, woman) in Marriage. ‘ — Jesus

                    • Jesus was quoting scripture and speaking to straight men about divorce. He doesn’t say anything about LGBTQ people and whether they can marry or not in that verse.

                      Besides we know now not everyone is born distinctly male or female. Jesus was not addressing that is his use of scripture.

                • Indeed Leslie M.

                  The ‘red letters’ are in Acts as well, where Jesus specifically calls Paul, chooses him, tells him to remain in Corinth, and tells him that he will travel to Rome. (three different appearances/visions)

                  Luke and Acts have the same author: Luke the Physician.

                  • Yes Luke was physician and historian par excellence! Luke 1:1-4

                    LUKE
                    CHAPTER 1
                    Introduction
                    Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.

            • Read, mark, learn, inwardly digest and educate yourself, Benny/Joe/Lone, who does not have the courage to post under his real name.

              Reasonable and Holy: Engaging Same-Sexuality
              by Tobias Stanislas Haller
              Reasonable and Holy addresses the conflict over homosexuality within the Anglican tradition, demonstrating that the church is able to provide for and support faithful and loving relationships between persons of the same sex, not as a departure from that tradition, but as a reasonable extension of it. It offers a carefully argued, but accessible means of engagement with Scripture, the Jewish and Christian traditions, and the use of reason in dealing with the experience and lives of fellow- Christians. Unlike most reflections on the topic of homosexuality, Reasonable and Holy examines same-sex relationships through the lens of the traditional teaching on the ends or goods of marriage: procreation, union, the upbuilding of society, the symbolic representation of Christ and the Church, and the now often unmentioned remedy for fornication. Throughout, it responds to objections based on reason, tradition and Scripture. Based on a series of popular blog posts, it includes a number of independent, but related resources in the form of side-bars and single-page expansions of particular themes, suitable for reproduction as handouts.

              God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships
              by Matthew Vines
 As a young Christian man, Matthew Vines harbored the same basic hopes of most young people: to some-day share his life with someone, to build a family of his own, to give and receive love. But when he realized he was gay, those hopes were called into question. The Bible, he’d been taught, condemned gay relationships.

              Feeling the tension between his understanding of the Bible and the reality of his same-sex orientation, Vines devoted years of intensive research into what the Bible says about homosexuality. With care and precision, Vines asked questions such as:

              • Do biblical teachings on the marriage covenant preclude same-sex marriage or not?
              • How should we apply the teachings of Jesus to the gay debate?
              • Can celibacy be a calling when it is mandated, not chosen?
              • What did Paul have in mind when he warned against same-sex relations?

              Unique in its affirmation of both an orthodox faith and sexual diversity, God and the Gay Christian has sparked heated debate, sincere soul search­ing, and widespread cultural change on the issue of what it means to be a faithful gay Christian.

              Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe
              by John Boswell
              Both highly praised and intensely controversial, this brilliant book produces dramatic evidence that at one time the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches not only sanctioned unions between partners of the same sex, but sanctified them–in ceremonies strikingly similar to heterosexual marriage ceremonies.

              Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality: Gay People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the Fourteenth Century
              by John Boswell
              John Boswell’s National Book Award–winning study of the history of attitudes toward homosexuality in the early Christian West was a groundbreaking work that challenged preconceptions about the Church’s past relationship to its gay members—among them priests, bishops, and even saints—when it was first published thirty-five years ago. The historical breadth of Boswell’s research (from the Greeks to Aquinas) and the variety of sources consulted make this one of the most extensive treatments of any single aspect of Western social history.

              Now in this thirty-fifth anniversary edition with a new foreword by leading queer and religious studies scholar Mark D. Jordan, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality is still fiercely relevant. This landmark book helped form the disciplines of gay and gender studies, and it continues to illuminate the origins and operations of intolerance as a social force.

              Gay Unions:In the light of Scripture, Tradition and Reason.
              Rev. Gray Temple (Jr.)
              Gray Temple presents the argument for the sacramental equality of gay and lesbian couples, which is to say they are entitled to full participation in the sacraments, including Marriage. Gray Temple bases his discussion on the Anglican concept of discerning the will of God through Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. In the argument from Scripture, Gray Temple’s basic premise is that we cannot presume to know what the Bible says to us if we do not understand what the biblical writers thought they were saying. He discusses the ways in which the concept of sexuality in the minds of biblical writers was very different than ours. He carefully analyzes the most often-cited biblical passages assumed to prohibit homosexual activity and shows why they are not saying what we think they are saying. In the argument from Tradition, Gray analyzes the roots of various traditions coming to the conclusion that traditions generally evolve to maintain privilege. Tradition has been used, for example to bar women from ordination. We are veering dangerously away from the Anglican tradition of the via media. In the argument from Reason, he presents answers to assumptions about homosexuality both from an impassioned liberal stance and from a stance designed to lead to a dialogue engaging the hopes and fears of the conservative and liberal sides.

              As a liberal charismatic who prayerfully came to the conclusion that his homophobia was not a stance favored by God, Temple is in a unique position to take on this topic. Gray Temple deeply understands the ethos of conservatism and his understanding of that ethos provokes him to engage conservative arguments with rigor and sympathy.

Gay and Christian? Yes!
              by Rev. William H. Carey
              Can a person be Gay and Christian? Many churches say no. Many quote Bible passages that make it appear that God condemns homosexuality. But if we take a closer look, reading the scripture in the original Hebrew and Greek, we discover that God never condemned homosexuality, and that same-sex marriage existed in Bible times.

              Hounded by God: A Gay Man’s Journey to Self-Acceptance, Love , and Relationship, by Joseph Gentilini
              is based on years of journals that this spiritual gay man kept.  It chronicles his coming out experiences, dealings with family and friends,  his commitment to his partner, Leo Radel, and, most importantly, his relationship with God.

              Confessions of a Gay Married Priest: A Spiritual Journey by Maurice Monette,
              who was a member of a religious order for 30 years, and has been married to his partner for 24 years.  The book is an autobiography which chronicles the high points and low points of the spiritual road that Monette trod.  The book has been praised by several high-profile Catholic leaders.

              Bible, Gender, Sexuality: Reframing the Church’s Debate on Same-Sex Relationships by James V. Brownson

              This thought-provoking book by James Brownson develops a broad, cross-cultural sexual ethic from Scripture, locates current debates over homosexuality in that wider context, and explores why the Bible speaks the way it does about same-sex relationships.

              Fairly presenting both sides in this polarized debate — “traditional” and “revisionist” — Brownson conscientiously analyzes all of the pertinent biblical texts and helpfully identifies “stuck points” in the ongoing debate. In the process, he explores key concepts that inform our understanding of the biblical texts, including patriarchy, complementarity, purity and impurity, honor and shame. Central to his argument is the need to uncover the moral logic behind the text.

              Written in order to serve and inform the ongoing debate in many denominations over the questions of homosexuality, Brownson’s in-depth study will prove a useful resource for Christians who want to form a considered opinion on this important issue.

            • Hmmm… this I disagree with. The Bible was written many years ago… to refuse to allow ANY divergence from it, any means of ebb and flow, would leave a portion of society completely stagnate in an archaic society. That leads me to ask if your husband controls everything in your home, do you remain at home to tend to the house and children, does he arrange marriages for your daughters, do you make everything from scratch and sew all of the clothing for you and your family, quilts for your beds, etc, have you learned how to gather herbs for medicinal purposes and how to utilize them??

              These are all things that women of that time period would have done… if you don’t believe ANYTHING should be allowed to “change with the times” then perhaps these things shouldn’t either – at least not for you (no modern plumbing or appliances either).

              There are two quite important points that you seem to be missing here. First, I DO believe that the Bible allows for changing with the times, people change too. We, as a society, are not the same as we were 100 yrs ago, let alone 1000+ yrs ago. We have to be flexible in how we interpret the Bible to fit the world we live in TODAY or it simply won’t work.

              “Judge not lest you be judged.” It’s not our place to pass judgement on our peers, neighbors, co-workers, family members, whomever. It makes a person look pretty ugly and it really is not Christlike … besides, allowing someone else to have more rights does NOT take any of YOUR rights away, it’s NOT PIE!!

              Second, God makes us ALL, and last time I checked, MY God didn’t make mistakes. Therfore, those individuals who identify with the LGBTQ+ community were created by GOD just like you and me!!

              • Rene, I look at it this way. If all of us obeyed God’s commandments and did our bit to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the sick, meet needs, fight injustice, visited the prisoners so they do not despair, then we would all fall into bed at night to exhausted to worry about who found love with whom in this world where love is so hard to find.

                I rejoice when a person finds love, would that we could.

      • what I have always been fascinated with is there is not one word attributed to Jesus about homosexuality one way or another and yet that has become a core of the alt-right belief system. What Jesus had a lot to say about was hypocripsy and how we treat one another.

        • Celo Erickson, I agree with you.

          I also ask you to cease to call white supremacists anything other than white supremacists. They devised the term “alt-right” to fool us into forgetting that they are bigots, fascists, gynophobes, homophobes, liars, misogynists, racists, rapists, sexual assaulters and molesters, transgenderphobes, white supremacists, and xenophobes just like their god, Trump.

      • And what about the pew fillers who lie, who practice questionable business ethics; who spread gossip, stealing the reputation of others; who mistreat their spouses/children; Who as department heads or bosses are incredibly rude to their subordinates, unkind to them.it is a long list. Let DT take care of / or ignore his choice of belief. There are many other things we need to call him on. How he expresses his inner faith system is not nearly as important to our nation as how he handles international and national issues.

      • God created then gay. They were born that way, I would give you the hundreds of scientific and historical proofs but my experience has been that anti-gay people refuse to accept facts that go against what the want to believe.

        I cannot understand how you believe that 10 to 13 year olds make a “Choice” so when they go to school the good peaceful Christian children can kick the shit out of them and torture daily until they totally despair and commit suicide. That really sounds to you like an “Choice” that some one seeking acceptance would make?

      • In your interpretation of the bible it isn’t. The thing is that’s between them and god. Yours and my christianity does not have the power to take away people’s rights. Separation of church and state. You live in a country founded on rights and freedoms. A nation with no formal or official religion, but a country with freedom of religion.

        • Taking into account the subtle presence of homosexuality both in the predominant Greek World in the Eastern Med. and the older Syrian, Assyrian and Babylonian cultures all present at the time plus it taking less than 15 seconds to denounce, it can be inferred Jesus, Son of Joseph, did not feel it necessary to denounce homosexuality in any form.

          Certainly in his time in Egypt he would have become aware of it as the scholarship and intelligentsia were still Ptolemic Greek.

          If it was important to the roughly 4% of a given population who are homosexual, bi-sexual, or tarns and then the greater portion of the people who love them and call them family, it was surely important.

      • God, the father of Jesus created every single one of his children in his own image. You do not get to judge His meaning. Jesus did not put you here on earth to be the moral voice for His own creations. If you believe you are better equipped than Our Lord Jesus Christ to decide who is righteous in His eyes, you are placing yourself in a position that equals His wisdom. If I were you I’d look closely at what your life’s purpose is here on earth. If you say you follow Jesus and at the same time cast out his sons and daughters whom you believe are not worthy, you are being a hypocrite.

        If you got the notion that same-sex marriage is “DEFINITELY not Christian” because you interpreted it from the Bible, remember who actually wrote the Bible. It was not written by God the Father, the Son or the Holy Ghost. It was written by men. Men who lived hundreds of years after the death of Jesus. Men who had an agenda that included keeping women silent and obedient; an agenda that included making slaves of other men; and an agenda for keeping other men working hard and under control in order to gain power and wealth.

        You are not God.

        • “God, the father of Jesus” ????????????????

          Surely you are aware that basic Trinitarian doctrine is that God and Jesus are the same Being. Co-equal, co-eternal along with the Holy Spirit.

          Or are you from a non-Trinitarian tradition?

          • Gloriamarie,

            Then why when he was dying on the cross did he supposedly cry out:
            “FATHER, forgive them for they know not what they do?”

            Just respectfully asking about a very confusing set of stories about Jesus.

      • Show me where Christ said so, and then I’ll consider it. But if you can’t find it from Christ, it would be more accurate to consider yourself a Paulian than a Christian.

      • Regardless of ones religious convictions regarding same-sex marriage. Restricting the freedom of others based on a religious conviction that they do not hold is an utter contradiction to a faith which must be chosen. In fact I would go so far as to suggest that this sort of forced piety is sinful. As theologian Roger Williams said “Forced worship stinks in the nostrils of God.”

      • Rebuking same sex marriage and abortion doesn’t make you a Christian. There is SO much more to the Christian walk. If you are a Christian you know that. Playing the race card may not be convenient , but it’s definitely appropriate. He drew the card from the deck which was given. I think you know that. Trump’s skin color and money gave him every advantage. If Obama had three wives, five children from three different women, talked about grabbing women’s genitalia, made racist remark, mocked a disabled man, and had Russian interference with election he wouldn’t be president. I think you know that too.

      • It was race issues. Stop with the denial issues and call those things as they are and just maybe problems can be solved.

        For example, someone steals from you; you will call them a thief. You will not dismiss it as giving, and you believe that they must need it more than you do. No, you will call it for what it is. Thing doesn’t have to be written on the wall like this Donald Trump and Barack Obama situation to know these two administration were/are treated differently, because of racial issues. If you want to be in denial keep that sickness to yourself.

        I agree, gay marriage is wrong, but it is not my or yours place to condemn people on their lifestyles it’s God job to do that. It is so funny how one sins are greater than the other sins, but no one doesn’t call out liars do they. Hmmm??? Something to think about.

      • You are wrong, anonymous. All manifestations of the belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ – including your opposition to same-sex marriage, are evil.

        John has a typo, the passage he cited is from Matthew 7, not Matthew 5, but the point applies to anti-gay theology as well. The sick belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ produces murder, rape, torture, systemic injustice, brutality and violence of every kind people are capable of it. It bears evil fruit, and only evil fruit, and according to Jesus, that means that you and every one else who teaches ‘homosexuality is sin’ is a false teacher, to whom Christ will say “I know you not”.

        Further, false teacher, you cannot deny marriage to same-sex couples, while allowing mixed sex couples to marry. First, you violate the law of love: ‘love your neighbor as yourself’.

        Second, by showing favoritism toward heterosexuals and against homosexuals, you sin:
        James 2:9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

        You cannot treat GLBTQ people any differently than you treat heterosexuals, and that means you must respect their innate capacity for love and intimacy as much as you respect that of heterosexuals.

        And no, you don’t get to compare homosexuality with any form of sexual abuse – to do so would be slander, and that would bar you from the Kingdom of Heaven according to Paul.

        The reality is that you cannot be a Christian and condemn homosexuals. Not at all. It is spiritually impossible.

      • As same-sex marriage in this country is a legal concept only, there is nothing even remotely religious about it.

        Churches were and are allowed to decide on their own whether to religiously recognize same-sex marriage within their denomination.

        Don’t confuse the law and religion — the government doesn’t.

      • Being a Christian means following the teachings of Christ. You just go right ahead and quote me where Jesus had anything negative to say about homosexuality. You get to work finding that and we’ll wait here in breathless anticipation.

      • If I remember correctly, the old testament says that a man who lie with a man shall be punished by stone… but because that is old law (Leviticus) and then Jesus came in the the new testament and he says ” i am here to do away with the old law because I am the new law” and his law was simple “love each other and to support the neighbors because jesus is the beggar, whore, and debt collector” doesn’t that do away with all the old laws that God gave to David? Now allowing LGBT to be accepted under the eyes of the lord as his children? and its that ACCEPTANCE christian?

      • Well Anon, I hate to break this to you..the laws of the United States don’t answer to the Bible or any other religious text.

        Sorry, you have no right to deny your fellow Americans the same rights you hold because of your religious beliefs.

        If you don’t like gay marriage then don’t marry someone of the same gender as you. But that’s really as far as your rights on the matter go.

      • Religion is whatever you want it to be. It was used to by Martin Luther King to liberate black people, but it was also used by plantation owners to enslave them. We can debate as to what the Bible or Koran really says, but in the end, it matches whatever you believe as an individual or as to what culture you grew up in.
        The best of religion elevates our common humanity, the worst of religion sets us apart into warring tribes.
        I see religion as cultural myths passed on as truths, but in the end, we all simply die. More than likely that is it, but none of us really knows for sure.

        • To quote: Support of same-sex marriage is DEFINITELY not Christian.

          So you don’t eat pork or shellfish right? You don’t shave your beard if you’re a guy right? You don’t have any tattoos right?

          The second you say “But that’s old testament” yeah..so is the prohibition against same sex marriage.

          Also there’s the fact that the Bible wasn’t written originally in English and when you translate from language to language to language to language things have a tendency to get changed.

      • “Support of same-sex marriage is DEFINITELY not Christian.”

        Nope. You are damningly wrong.

        You see, Jesus gave a rule – love your neighbor as yourself. So if a heterosexual wants to marry in accord with their sexual orientation, they must allow homosexuals the same civil right. If not, that heterosexual has overtly and demonstrably, deliberately disobeyed Jesus.

        If a conservative who calls himself a Christian wish the freedom to live by his religious beliefs, about anything, in his own life, then he must allow GLBTQ people to follow their religious beliefs, including ‘homosexuality is not sin’ in their lives. That means supporting same-sex marriage. To do any differently, is deliberate disobedience.

        Further,

        James 2:1, 9
        My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism.
        But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

        Allowing heterosexuals to marry in accord with their sexual orientation, while disallowing homosexuals the same right, is favoritism on your part. You sin by showing favoritism to yourself and your peers and against GLBTQ people, and you are convicted by the law as a lawbreaker.

      • Tolerance IS. And if you are going to be a cherry-picker and state that gay marriage isn’t Christian, I truly hope you don’t eat seafood, watch football, wear polycotton blends, and a **whole host** of OTHER things that ‘aren’t Christian’ either.

    • And, interestingly, Obama actually was (and is) a Christian. He’s unfortunately gotten away from church attendance since he moved to Washington, but he was very faithful for years before that, and attended Bible Studies, preached sermons, and wrote about his faith. And, though it’s a little unfair to say this, his lifestyle is also far more “Christian” than Trump’s, who–to be fair–never claimed to be religious, or that his lifestyle was very religious.

      • Now, of course I could be mistaken, but it seems to me the last President I remember actually going to church on Sunday was JFK.

        To be fair to all of our Presidents, the job is 24/7/365-6. I don’t see how they have time to worship regularly.

          • I don’t remember that he, Roslyn, and Amy went to church. One would think they did, but my caveat was the last one I remember was JFK and family.

            But I was distracted from politics during the Carter administration because of a personal crisis.

            • Lyndon Johnson attended church. I remember that because his preacher used to preach against the war now and then and it ticked Johnson off.
              Nixon held worship services in the White House.

              • Now that you mention that about LBJ, I remember.

                Don’t remember Nixon at all. Was always amazed that he was raised Quaker as he was no pacifist. And the language on those tapes. Oh vey.

            • The Carters were Baptists. In fact they were church-going Baptists until very recently when Jimmy Carter decided he could no longer endorse a church that was so homophobic and misogynistic.

              • Scott:
                I wouldn’t call his leaving “Recent.” He did it in 2000, which is about seventeen years ago. And even then, he just moved to a more tolerant, open minded church, one where he still attends and still teaches a weekly adult Bible class.

                • “Scott:
                  I wouldn’t call his leaving ‘Recent.’ He did it in 2000, which is about seventeen years ago.”

                  My bad. I did not think it was that far back.

                  Now do me a favor and knock off the constant nitpicking. You are by far one of the biggest irritants on this forum.

                  • Scott,
                    This time, it’s My turn to be “my bad.” Sorry about that. I probably have been a little too precise (aka “Nit picking”) .
                    I’ll back off on it. Thanks for pointing it out.
                    Stan

              • Yes, I know they were Baptists. I am trying to remember if they went to church while in the White House. Silly thing to ponder, really.

            • Sorry, Glori. I was in attendance at President carter’s church in D.C. while going to school there. He even preached a sermon.

      • I think part of it was out of security concerns. If a President regularly attends church that creates complications for said church.

        Same as when Trump goes to Mar-A-Largo every weekend it causes issues for the neighboring town.

    • http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=kim+clement+trump+prophecy+2007&view=detail&mid=F6DFF2BD8A67B27DDE5DF6DFF2BD8A67B27DDE5D&FORM=VIRE

      Regardless of your politics please check this out.
      For anyone interested please listen to the words of a prophet, Kim Clement. He made this profound prophesy in 2007. If you’re anything like me, you will be covered in goosebumps!
      It is TIME to stop bickering, resorting to name calling because we disagree–I know God is watching and more importantly God knows are hearts! WE ARE IN FOR SOME MAJOR CHANGES THAT ARE ABOUT TO BREAK LOOSE. You must be ready, if you’re not NOW IS THE TIME. There is NO other way that TRUMP was elected other than to be placed in that position by our Lord. He had everything stacked against, the media (look at Chris Cuomo admit he was in the bag for Hillary), Hollywood, Jay-Z, Beyonce, Lady Gaga, Madonna, and all the rest, Republicans, Democrats, Wall Street, Tri-lateral Group, CFR, globalists, ALL colleges, big government agencies, you name it they were against Trump. I believed there was no way he would win the election! I was not a Trump fan nor was I a Hillary fan l. Research Haiti alone and you will see what happened to our brothers and sisters of Haiti after the earthquake. It will make your skin crawl. Look at Laura Silsby, Anthony Weiner (Huma Abedin’s husband), elite pedophilia rings , corruption that goes so deep on every level. I believe we are all in for the shock of a lifetime. It is becoming extremely obvious that we may be headed for a civil war, something I know none of us want.
      PLEASE let’s get right before the Lord. He is truly where it’s at. I know you all know that but felt led to send this prophesy which truly impacted my own life and I hope it speaks to you as well.

      • Sally,
        Thanks so much for posting this video. It really is amazing. So I’m going to start following Kim Clement more closely from now on.

        I’m not sure about the rest of your post. It was a little garbled and rambling, but nonetheless, thanks for alerting us to this video. I’m going to share it around.

        Stan

      • I’m calling BS on this. God allowed Trump to be elected—but for one purpose only—to destroy the Republican Party. So far, Trump is off to a great start in doing it.

      • WOW! I went to the link and watched this crazy person rant choice pieces from the Bible.
        Anyway, the election was rigged against Hillary Clinton. The Russians, the FBI and the media all were against her in one form or another.
        I never believe “prophets” who sound remarkably like Adolf Hitler. I also think conspiracy theorists have too much time on their hands so when fake news shows them a rabbit hole they eagerly follow right down. This is harmless except they then warn all of their like minded friends who post more craziness for simplistic thinkers.

      • To imply that God ‘chose’ a bigot, racist, misogynist, Islamaphobe, who stirs hatred at every turn, who goes directly against everything we know about Jesus is a mockery of Christian faith.

        We have free will, given to us by God. Humans have created this mess and humans will have to change things.

          • Chris Miller, If we claim God raises up nations and tears them down, then God is responsible for everything, and his judgement is futile in the end because he is the one who caused evil to prevail. Your position takes responsibility away from the people who did evil. Evil tyrants and evil governments are created by human will and human desire for power and control over wealth and nations.

            We pray to God as a source to help us in time of need when we have tyrants ruling over us. We pray that God saves us from them not that God helps them to continue being tyrants.

            Perhaps then the movement of the Holy Spirit inspires people to act and strengthens people to tear down evil tyrants and systems of the world. God is an ever present help in times of need, but we must do the work and make the effort.

            In the case of America you are a democracy and you can pray that the people stay strong and speak out against tyranny.

            If you know anything about your American Revolution- it is tyranny you fought against

            • My position on the sovereignty of God does not take away accountability from those who do evil. Just as Joseph said to his brothers who sold him into slavery – God meant it for Good but you meant it for evil. Judas’ betray – he did as evil and God meant it for good (salvation of mankind). The slaughter of innocent human life in the abortion clinics is the evil of man and God takes their souls to heaven (good). All men will be accountable for their evil deeds.

              • I think you are giving Judas and evil too much credit. There is nothing good that comes out of evil. What God does is a process of redemption- despite evil. That is why there is nothing good about Trump- as president- the good is happening in the resistance.

      • Are you shitting me with this garbage? How hard is it to film a video full of crap and slap any date on it to mislead people? This guy is nuts and you’re obviously not right in the head either. Stop posting crap like this.

    • So at this morning’s national prayer breakfast, President Trump said, “There’s just one thing I don’t get; Jesus died, he rose, and he came out of the tomb and saw his shadow, then wh….?”

    • Wow! What an interesting concept…judging someone else’s walk with God to claim they are not Christlike. That is PRECISELY what Christ called his followers to do…

      …physician, heal thyself.

    • Where was the love, grace and compassion when Obama was in office? President Obama was doubted and persecuted over everything from being a non-Christian to being continually chided for not being a “real” US citizen. Indeed, if Jesus were traveling from the middle east in the chaos of the here and now, he would be turned away or handcuffed at the airport.

      • While I agree with you that Obama was treated to the same kind of thing, the love, grace and compassion was self-evident in the Obama family.

        I betcha the very people who most dislike what John P said about Trump are the very people who raised the loudest voices against Obama.

    • (How do I make an actual comment instead of a reply?)

      John, I apologize now if this makes certain people hate on you more, but I just discovered you, I will follow you every day, and I’m an atheist.

      However, before I was an atheist I was a devout Christian for over 40 years, married to a pastor for 20.

      Many, many factors over many years led to the loss of my faith, even as I held on kicking and screaming. But one of the factors was definitely this one — the emphasis of doctinal correctness over (way over) the teachings of Jesus. I became a Christian because I wanted to do good in the world, and stayed for many years over fear of going to hell.

      To me the most fascinating thing about Christian Trump is this: Before he was elected, I read “Dreams of my Father,” Barack Obama’s autobiography.

      The book contains many Bible passages, as well as AN ENTIRE CHAPTER ABOUT HIS BEING BORN AGAIN, accepting Christ as his personal savior, and what that meant to him.

      The hullabaloo over Rev. Jeremiah Wright’s “God damn America” was ludicrous, in that I have heard white televangelists say the same thing.

      Obama, a younger, attractive black man, has been married once and was never ensnared in a sex scandal. Etc. etc.

      Yet he is not a Christian. At best, he’s nothing; at worst he is a radical Muslim who wants to outlaw Christianity and ban the Bible.

      Then comes this campaign. We all know his background — his behavior as well as his stands on the issues. DURING the campaign he admitted he never really felt regret and never felt the need to ask forgiveness from God. Then there was the hilarious episode where he pretended to have actually read the Bible.

      Then someone hears a rumor from someone who heard a rumor that Trump had been born again with James Dobson. His behavior did not change and JAMES DOBSON DENIED IT, but he was good to go. A zillion times the Christian Obama ever was!

      This era might not just be the end of America as we know it, but the end of American Conservative Christianity. If they continue to ignore shocking events happening daily because he is a “baby Christian,” they will be no longer relevant as they will have lost ALL credibility.

      Thanks again!

      • Teresa Bryan Peneguy, welcome.

        To answer your parenthetical question, to make a comment, scroll all the way to the end of all the comments and replies till you see the box to write in.

        I would like to ask you to clarify something please. You write eloquently about Obama and I agree. Then all of a sudden you wrote “Then comes this campaign. We all know his background — his behavior as well as his stands on the issues. DURING the campaign he admitted he never really felt regret and never felt the need to ask forgiveness from God. Then there was the hilarious episode where he pretended to have actually read the Bible.”

        You are talking about Trump now, aren’t you, and no longer about Obama?

        You also wrote “Many, many factors over many years led to the loss of my faith, even as I held on kicking and screaming. But one of the factors was definitely this one — the emphasis of doctinal correctness over (way over) the teachings of Jesus. I became a Christian because I wanted to do good in the world, and stayed for many years over fear of going to hell.”

        It hurts my heart to read these words. Yes, you describe something that does happen. I hope that after your wounds heal, you will be able again to read the teachings of Jesus and rediscover faith.

        You might be interested in a book discussion group on Facebook. we are reading Karen Armstrong’s Twelve Steps to a Compassionate Life Here’s the link:

        https://www.facebook.com/groups/1625117557792102/

      • There is a difference between the profession of faith and the possession of faith. Christ’s baptism is of the Holy Spirit and once made clean you remain in the state of salvation (doctrine of eternal security). In John 10 He says He knows His sheep and His sheep know Him and no one can snatch them out of my hand. This is good news!

      • Ms. Peneguy, I think when I was 18 and in real spiritual trouble, I discovered the rock of my faith and it was told to me this way:

        Jesus, on the Cross, looked across space and time to me and decided I was worth saving. Whether a single other soul was saved, or not; I was worthy of salvation. I had to try. I had to not give up. Me. Jesus in his pain and sorrow, reached out to me.

        I may be one of billions upon billions and I am also his Child. What others do in his name and with his Message is not for me to decided. The Message has been delivered to me and I have to do the best I can, navigating through my life experiences to be the best I can be.

        As long as I don’t surrender to doubt, I am doing okay. I can doubt. I am expected to doubt. Faith without doubt isn’t faith ~ it is fanaticism. Faith with doubt is tested and true so let yourself doubt because you will grow stronger.

        Why does anyone else do what they do? That wasn’t in the Message Jesus delivered to me. He told me about kindness, tolerance, suffering for what you believe and above all, LOVE ~ selfless, unrequited love for any being, be they family, or stranger. And if someone as flawed as myself is worthy of such love and devotion by him, should I not at least try? … screw up … and try again … laugh, learn, screw-up, but not give up … and carry on?

        Had God wanted me to be perfect, or different, I would be so and not even know it. I am me. I can be a better me. Jesus has show me how. It is up to me to try, or not try, and best of all, he trusts me with those decisions.

        My second aspect of understanding the Divine came much later and from a TV show: Babylon 5.
        God is Infinite – every time, space and possibility. If so, then I am God. I am God, learning to be me – right now, making my choices. No matter what I choose, I am God making those choices and those lead to infinite other choices. I am not divorced from God. I am not divorced from Free Will. I am, in this instant, that tiny bit of God which is learning about me, who I am, what I might do and what it means for the larger existence. As what I chose to do from all the choices I might make creates the Infinite God, what I do matters as it carries forward towards Eternity.

        You don’t think so?

        Every atom inside of you which isn’t Hydrogen was once inside a star. How it became something more than Hydrogen is the story of your creation ~ atomic choices which ended up with Oxygen vs. Carbon, or Sulfur vs. Lead.

        And how you breathe, who you share your water with and where you sleep tonight will determine how much of you goes on to create life you cannot imagine which will come into being long after your Star’s light is a distant memory.

        And now you know this ~ your atoms and what they mean ~ this knowledge of what has gone on inside you and around you leading you to this moment as part of the Infinite God.

        And you have choices to make.

    • THE most important line in this whole dissertation is close to the end…
      I do not know Donald Trump.
      In one small sentence, the author negates his whole thesis.

      • I understand you need a way to negate the entire post to feel all is right again with your world, but the words “I do not know Donald Trump” in no way negates his thesis. Quite the opposite.

        You did not know Jesus personally, but would you respect him by his deeds? You didn’t know Stalin personally, but would you respect him by his actions?

        That was the entire point of the thesis; by their fruit you shall know them. Trump can call himself Christian all he likes; his actions in no way support that claim.

      • Susan, we are given the wisdom to discern people but not the authority to judge them. Discernment helps us remain open to the possibility that a person or a situation will work itself out for good. Judgement closes off all possibility of engagement with someone. This is why we leave judgement to God and discern for ourselves who we can trust.

        • Then by that reasoning you cannot say he is a Christian. We can only go by his actions and deeds. We see with different eyes and hear his words with different ears.

    • Omg this author should get a grip. While pointing out Trumps faults he clearly portrays himself as an angry person without and grace or mercy yo the repenrant soul by pointing out most of Trumps past sins. He assumes that everyone thinks of Trump as a Christian President. I think that people are happy that he found Christ (if he actually did) . As to his lifestyle that the author pointed out that was so evil, if we disqualify him for those things then please stop reading the New Testament coz most of it was written by a person who was a self righteous murderous bigot called Saul of Tarsus. There is a clear political slant in the author’s words . Get a grip fella.

      • Thank you Guy as Paul was a great apostle to the Gentiles appointed by Christ Himself. He wrote 13 epistles in the New Testament
        Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. If you discredit him you discredit most the New Testament. You don’t need to just focus on red letters because it is all inspired text. Jesus tells us “he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

      • Guy, if Trump really found Christ..then why are his actions continuing to be so antithetical to Christ’s teachings?

        And yes..the Christian right has convinced themselves that Trump is indeed a Christian.

      • “What do you mean by ‘WORD?'”

        Means I agree with what was said. However don’t expect me to believe that you did not know what I meant; unless you’ve been living under a rock for the last twenty-odd years I am quite sure that you did not need to ask that question.

    • So then do we go back to almost every President and judge their actions and take it upon ourselves to judge who was and was not a Christian ? I’m sorry to be blunt but let he who is without sin cast the first stone. It sure wouldnt be Hillary, Bill or Obama. And you could just keep going. It’s NOT for me to judge. I DONT know his heart, only God does, and instead of judging, try praying. I hear God likes it better that way !!

      • Personally, Candy, I look at words and deeds which tend to reveal thoughts. By that standard it sure would be Hillary, Bill, and Obama because I see them constantly striving to be a voice for the poor, the oppressed, the voiceless.

        I see none of that in Trump. I see in him a man who revels in sin and all the American nationalistic Christians allow him to get away with it.

        Which they did not do with Bill who has, apparently, changed his behavior and learned how to become a faithful husband and none of the American nationalistic Christians give him credit for that. Although when David in the Hebrew Scriptures did the exact same thing, American Nationalistic Christians give him credit for his repentance. Why not give Bill the same credit?

        Why not? Because the issue is not about whether or not Bill and Hillary are more moral than Trump, although they are. The issue is what they want to do which is wrest money from the grasp of the those who walk all over other people to make themselves wealthy at the expense of others.

        The Hebrew prophets spoke out loud, high, wide, and wonderful, about what happens to people who ignore the poor. They got their comeuppance. But apparently, Israel had not learned a thing because Jesus came, said the same stuff and within forty years Israel did not exist again until 1948.

        Here in the USA we have false prophets preaching the heretical prosperity gospel and American Nationalistic Christians are embracing it in droves because it allows them to be greedy, selfish, bigoted, gynophobic, homophobic, misogynistic, racists, rapists, sexual assaulters and molesters, transgenderphobic, white supremacists, xenophobic greedy little pigs.

          • Yes we sure see Hillary, Bill, and Obama take a stance for the voiceless in the womb. This is without a doubt willful destruction human life.

            • Funny, Chris, your side who so loves to claim to be oh so the defenders of the voiceless in the womb have absolutely no problem with those same voiceless in the womb dying or being harmed because of corporate greed, pollution, lack of adequate food, shelter, health care, etc.

              When an insurance company condemned a six year old boy to death because they didn’t want to pay for his health care..where were you?

              Sorry, being “pro life” means more than just opposing abortion. Otherwise you’re just probirth.

              • James,

                What specific case are you referencing concerning the insurance company that condemned a six year old as I would like to review. When did this occur??Also, what specific dangerous policies are creating harm for children after birth as you mention pollution, corporate greed, healthcare, etc. without any specifics.

                • Oh i have to correct one little error. It wasn’t a 6 year old boy. It was a 5 year old boy. By the name of Kyle van Nocker who had neuroblastoma. WHen his cancer returned in 2008 the insurance company approved a cheaper “experimental” treatement. But the doctor said that a more expensive one was required and would have a higher chance of saving his life. The insurance company refused claiming the recommended treatment was “experimental”….despite the fact that they had approved an equally experimental treatment.

                  The kid’s family bankrupted themselves trying to save their boy and failed and the boy died.

                  Oh and he’s not the only one. He’s not the only child or the only life to lose said life to lack of health care.

                  So where was the prolife crowd there? Where has the prolife crowd been in opposing IVF clinics? Because such clinics produce a lot of embryos that end up not being needed and hence either destroyed or sold for medical research.

                  Where was the prolife crowd when Rick Snyder of Michigan and the GOP controlled legislature screwed up in Flint MIchigan and poisoned all those people and all those kids?

                  Where is the prolife crowd in opposing Trump and the GOP trying to kick 24 million people off insurance? Where are they when Trump’s White House grants approval to the use of chlorpyrifos a pesticide with known links to causing damage to kids brains? Where is the outrage from the prolife crowd when Trump’s white house allows coal ash dumping in drinking water or loosens the regulations governing lead?

                  And where is the outrage from the prolife crowd when Trump and company cut funding to Meals on Wheels, food stamps, and federal funding for medical research?

                  To borrow the words of Sister Joan Chittister, O.S.B.: “I do not believe that just because you’re opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don’t? Because you don’t want any tax money to go there. That’s not pro-life. That’s pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is.”

    • I don’t know, he acts like most Christians I’ve experienced…if most Christians walked the walk, all of these things conservative says hate about government wouldn’t be needed.

    • Your Christian brothers and sisters will forgive you for all this blaming, bickering, lack of logic, lack of love, bullying, labeling.. but please stop using Christ’s name in vain. Why be so defensive? Why defend such a man with such fervor? Everyone sees the truth and your defenses have no strength. We know you are in pain. All you do is fight because you don’t agree with one or two issues of the majority-but you’ve been heard. This minority president is not worth all this ugliness. Forgive others and yourself. You are still loved!!! It’s not too late to repent and look deep inside your heart for who you truly are, and it’s not all this non-sense.

    • the issue is not about religion, pigmentation, walls or muslum bans.
      this man is seriously mentaly unbalanced, is putting all of us in danger.
      but I guess it dosen’t matter what the view from your bubble is , just
      wake up people

    • I’m tired of having people always say any reason for disagreement with Obama is based on race. I don’t care what color his skin is. I still disagree with his policies and I consider him just as much a Christian as Trump, which BTW, is not much.

      • “I’m tired of having people always say any reason for disagreement with Obama is based on race. I don’t care what color his skin is. I still disagree with his policies and I consider him just as much a Christian as Trump, which BTW, is not much.”

        What *I* am tired of is people like you. You are FULL OF SHIT and the worst thing about you is that you BELIEVE YOUR OWN LIES.

    • John, you should say “. It is time that I stopped calling him a Christian “. You said WE. Only speak for yourself, not the rest of people who feel strongly that our President is a Christian, and shows more compassion that most people who call themselves a preacher. This leads me to wonder if you are a Christian. Of course, that is between you and Who or what you worship. You have your right to think for yourself. Of course, there are many, including me , who will never believe that our past Obama was a Christian or was born in my country. If one is born in my country, one would be proud of it, and would never attempt to hide a birth certificate to prove it. Check Obama and his behavior. One does not need to be brilliant to know his religion and his country.

      • Anon..on what exactly has Trump showed compassion?

        To quote: and would never attempt to hide a birth certificate to prove it

        He showed the birth certificate multiple times, child. Your side just didn’t want to believe it.

        And as for “pride in country” funny..because Trump keeps on saying “Make America Great AGAIN” which means that he thinks America wasn’t great..that doesn’t sound like pride to me.

        And there you and yours sat..cheering his declaration that he was not proud of his country.

    • None of you know if he is a Christian or not . Judge not, unless you want to be Judged by God . We all need to bow down and come to God as well. I think of the liberal party who are holding out on the people to be confirmed for the Trump Admistration. You will answer to God on blended knee for your hatred. All his picks should be voted in long ago. How is your hearts Liberals???

    • Regardless of what Trump is (I have never declared him a Christian) the issues this man brings up in terms of policy are not in themselves evil. However, the inflammatory language the author uses to describe them could easily be regarded as a violation of the 8th commandment. This article really does nothing but promulgate the same vitriolic rhetoric the left has spewed since day one: Trump is a racist, misogynistic pervert.; the people who voted for him are beer swilling, uneducated morons; the sky is falling…..

      It’s just not persuasive because it is the same thing that has been said about anyone who is not a liberal. Shall I go on? Everyone who disagreed with Hillary Clinton was a bigoted, patriarchal oaf; everyone who disagreed with President Obama was a stupid racist. It couldn’t be that they simply came to a different conclusion after careful consideration. Yes, some on the right displayed some racist attitudes about the previous president, but so did some on the left (Biden, B. Clinton ). And quite frankly, the author of the article did quite a bit of stereotyping that could qualify as racist (at least, by implication).

      His views were not new or even intelligent. If he wants to convince all those fundies out there (“parsing bible verses” to whip out on unsuspecting LBGTQ) to stop hoping the rumors of an 11th hour conversion are true, perhaps he should salt his language with a little grace and humility. It is what Jesus would do.

    • 1. EVERYONE CALM DOWN.

      I wasn’t able to pay very close attention to the news this weekend, so I witnessed the hysterical meltdown over the Executive Order before I’d had a chance to read the actual text (a step that 98 percent of the protesters have clearly not taken). From the way the Left went into full meltdown mode, you’d think that Trump took some kind of extreme, incredible, unthinkable step. That is, you might come to that conclusion if you hadn’t noticed that the Left is now in a state of perpetual nuclear meltdown. The Fukushima meltdown went on for three days; the Left’s own nuclear meltdown is sure to outlast that by a factor of a thousand.

      Trump’s action here is certainly more than Obama ever did or ever would do, but it’s not entirely unprecedented even by Obama’s standards. As has been pointed out many times since Friday, Obama put a temporary hold on the Iraqi refugee program for 6 months back in 2011. If you happened to be in an airport after Obama signed that order, you may have noticed the complete lack of protesting going on. On second thought, you probably would not have noticed because, back in those ancient times, you never would have expected to see a national panic over a reasonable measure meant to ensure that terrorists aren’t entering the country. But those were also the days when Obama could assassinate US citizens without the Left uttering a word or protest. They were more easy going back then, it seems. I wonder why?

      Anyway, yes, Trump’s order goes beyond Obama’s. Trump is putting a hold on the Syrian refugee program until the process can be revamped and security measures are put in place. He’s also suspending all refugee admissions for just 4 months. And he is temporarily preventing the citizens of 7 terrorists hot spots from entering the United States. Those hot spots are: Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen. It should be noted that Trump did not single out those countries by name in his Executive Order. He simply adopted the Obama Administration’s list of “countries of concern.” It was Obama who highlighted them initially. Trump just took the next logical step.

      If these measures seem radical, they only seem radical to us because we’d grown accustomed to a president who did very little to protect national security and sovereignty. Indeed, we’d grown accustomed to a president who, infamously, couldn’t even bring himself to verbally acknowledge Islamic terrorism. Compared to that, yes, what Trump has done here is absolutely shocking. Looked at objectively, however, it’s honestly not that radical. It’s not a big deal at all, really. It’s a sensible first step towards ensuring that American citizens are better protected from the violence and chaos overseas.

      What would these protesters have us do, anyway? Somalia, Syria, Libya — these are failed states. They’re literal breeding grounds for terrorism. They’re like an assembly line for mass murdering zealots. These are some of the most dangerous places on Earth. Nobody is saying that we should never again admit anyone from this region of the world, but it seems enormously sensible to take a brief and temporary pause to assess how we admit them.

      Should we not even do that much? Really?

      You have to be suicidal, an idiot, or a liar to act like Trump has committed some kind of atrocity simply because he wants to ensure that we’re being extremely careful when we open our doors to people from nests of global jihadism. Speaking of which:
      2. If you call this a “Muslim ban”, you are a godforsaken liar.

      Let’s cut to the chase. There’s no other way of putting it. When you refer to Trump’s “Muslim ban,” you’re lying. If you aren’t directly lying, then you’re blindly lobbing accusations without stopping to confirm whether the accusations are true. And that’s the same thing as lying. So, you’re a liar. Stop it. Stop lying so much.

      A “Muslim ban” would be a ban on Muslims. A ban on Muslims would be a law that prevents Muslims from entering the United States based solely on the fact that they are Muslim. No such law exists. No such Executive Order was issued. Trump’s policy temporarily prevents citizens from only 7 Muslims majority countries from coming to the country, which leaves about 43 Muslim majority countries unaffected. The only problem a rational person could have with this decision is that more Muslim nations — Saudi Arabia, especially — should have been included. Perhaps they will be in the future. But you’re a fool if you argue that fewer countries should have been targeted. And you’re a liar if you claim that the targeting of these terrorism factories is tantamount to a “Muslim ban.”

      It’s not Donald Trump’s fault that all of the countries that churn out terrorists also happen to be Muslim. The reason that Christian majority countries aren’t being subjected to a ban is that Christian majority countries aren’t exporting jihadists left and right. Now, it goes without saying that if Christian terrorism was even a thing, and if there were Christian nations that had collapsed into anarchy and were now producing scores of Christian militants bent on violently enslaving the planet in the name of Christ, then these very same Leftists would be the first to shout for a ban, at a minimum. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear them clamoring for a series of nuclear strikes to finally eradicate the Christian scourge once and for all.

      But that’s not the situation we face. The situation is that certain Muslim majority countries — and only Muslim majority countries — have become hatcheries for global terrorism. If there’s a link between the fact that these countries produce terrorists and the fact that these countries are majority Muslim, that’s something the Islamic community should take up with itself. In the meantime, all we can do is respond to the reality as it presents itself.

    • Obama has let us know many times that he is not a Christian and yes he did put physical help for people but people have no choice in paying for medical help. Insurance is good but I am glad I didn’t have to pay for it when I was young. People have always been cared for without paying a lot of their wages. Hopefully there will be a better way they can find now,
      If Trump is not a Christian why would he choose Christians to help him and why does he ask for prayer all the time. I would not have voted for him if many Christian leaders had not mentioned that they were working to help him since he became a Christian and if he did not keep asking for prayer that God’s will might be done

      • “Obama has let us know many times that he is not a Christian…”

        POTUS Obama is a member of the United Church of Christ.

        Do stop getting your information from Faux Noise and the Glenn Beck program.

      • Haven’t you considered the possibility that Trump’s Christian posturing is a calculated move to get the support of people like you, who admitted to having voted principally on that allegation? Christians are a loud and loyal people group of literal millions of people in America. Populist politicians will, of course, try to pander to them and Trump is as populist as they make them.

        I know that it is difficult to accept when one has been duped, but such acceptance is the first step towards becoming more vigilant and wise against such things in the future.

    • My dislike of obama has NOTHING to do with his pigmentation. If you are a Christian, why are you insulting people. The Christians that I know have a problem with Mr. Obama because his stand on abortion, PERIOD!

    • Obama was a communist and dam sure was no Christian. President Trump is a Christian and a a gre man. He is a true American. Make American Great Again