If You’re LGBTQ, Here’s What One Pastor Really Hopes You Know

Woman with hair blowing in the wind breathing deeply and looking up wearing a leather jacket with a blurred nature background

Yesterday I had coffee with a wonderful new friend who identifies as Transgender. She and I were talking about the incredible damage done to so many people in the LGBTQ community at the hands and words of those in the Church, and what a barrier it’s been in their and her spiritual journey. It was a fresh reminder of how much pain Christians have generated.

A little over and hour later I was online engaging a professed Christian man who was incensed at my support of LGBTQ folks. After realizing that all his threats of Hell, his dire warnings of my impending meeting with Satan, and his admonishing me as “wolf in sheep’s clothing”, “false prophet”, and “apostate” did little to dissuade me, he leaned back on the angry white Christian guy’s go-to Hail Mary closer: he outed me.

“You support gays so much. You may was well just admit it and tell your wife that you are gay!”

(Yes, because that’s totally how that works.)

As I considered how to respond to such a loving, compassionate, and intellectually brilliant tactic, I realized two things:

One, as a fully-affriming LGBTQ ally, the accusation of being gay isn’t at all an insult to me—something which didn’t seem to cross his mind.
And two, he was using other people’s very identity to try and shame me.

The first realization amused me. The latter one really ticked me off. I thought of my new friend. I thought of so many people I know and love. I thought of people I love but will never meet and who might be following that thread, those for whom such wounds are a daily occurrence. I felt burdened to speak to them.

We often withhold saying simple words of encouragement because we take for granted that people hear them enough or that they don’t need them, but this of course is rarely true. Sometimes we just need to say everything.

If you’re reading this and you identify as LGBTIQ here’s what I really hope you know:

You are not an abomination to God.
Anyone with even a cursory understanding of the Bible knows that this is a completely irresponsible use of Scripture, and that using such a loaded word for another human being simply because of their gender identity or sexual orientation or because of the person they love is a reckless bastardization of the Bible and distortion of the heart of God.

Refuse to wear this label. It doesn’t belong to you. You are far too great for it.

You are not a mistake.
The same God we credit for the stars and the sea and the butterfly’s wings created you. This means you are made of the same stuff God is and with the very same care. Never allow someone to make you feel as though you are at all an error in need of correcting, that you are somehow less-than. You are intentional and perfect.

Even if it has taken you some time to figure out who you are, God has always known.

You are not broken.
Your gender identity and sexual orientation are not flaws or moral defects. They are not signs that you are damaged and to be repaired. Your intelligence and character, your humor and capacity to love, your gifts and passions, your goodness and humanity all comprise the sum total of who you are—and it is a thing of beauty.

You don’t need fixing.

Know these things, friend and know too:
You are fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God.
You are originally beautiful in ways that are entirely specific to you.
You are beloved as you are without alteration or achievement.
You are a walking freakin’ miracle.
And you are the Church, if you choose to be. You don’t need anyone’s consent or permission for proximity to Jesus. He is as close as this breath you take.

I’m sorry that you may not have heard these things enough by those claiming Christ, especially from those closest to you. That is their sin, not yours. It says more about them than it ever could about you. Yes, you have missed out by being disconnected from spiritual community, but that community has dearly missed your presence too. And understand that just because people have hurt you in the name of God, doesn’t mean they speak for God. The damage they have done was done to you without God’s approval. It is not of God.

And this is all true, not just because some white cisgender pastor says so—but because these things simply are. This is already your identity without me saying so of course, but if it encourages you at all to hear these words from a pastor and a father; if they make you feel seen or valued or supported and they give you a bit of hope today—then please hear me. 

Let the words seep deep into the marrow of your spirit and live lighter today.

You are fully loved. You are enough. I hope you know that.

 

 

108 thoughts on “If You’re LGBTQ, Here’s What One Pastor Really Hopes You Know

  1. Beautiful. As a gay man who took more than 30 years (and a marriage to a woman and a child) to come out, your words brought tears to my eyes. I struggled so hard against who I was growing up, filled with self-loathing and believing that I was damaged. The scars, faded, still remain and probably always will. I hope that a lot of LGBT people will see your words and recognize that we are all God’s children and not mistakes, and worthy of love and compassion.

    • It would help readers if you changed the title to “What A Part-Time Pastor Really Hopes You Know” because you are not a full-time pastor and cannot get a full-time pastorate. You show up on Sunday mornings and work with youth, and that is the extent of things. Apart from that, you spend all your time blogging, spreading hate and being a complete hypocrite of what you espouse. You “love” selectively.

      • Oh boy. Mr. Anonymous John Jack Harry Joe or whatever other mane I come up with because I don’t want people to know what my actual name is, is back.

        I want you to do me a huge favor. Tell me, how, exactly, is telling people that we should love, accept, and welcome each other spreading hate? It seems to me that these things are, in fact, the antithesis of hate.

        Oh. Wait. I forgot. Traditional Christian Love (TM) dictates that we only love those that are exactly like ourselves (namely, straight rich White people), and everyone else should be demonized unless they assimilate and conform to a narrow, bigoted worldview as dictated by Pat Robertson, Donald Trump, and Sarah Palin.

        People like you honestly make me laugh.

      • You know, if you don’t agree with the writer, then so be it. But getting personal is unnecessary. It is funny, I have always wondered why it is that so many people who are negative, critical, spew hate and have strong opinions share them “anonymous” … Belief does not run very deep if it is spoken anonymously … Hiding behind a keyboard is cowardly.

      • Wow! If you are so offended by John’s articles, why do you waste your time reading them? And what’s wrong with him blogging? And just because he might not work at a church full time doesn’t mean he isn’t a pastor full time? And I’ve read several of John’s articles now and I only see his love and compassion and I see him speak out against injustice.

        That you only see hate says a lot about you and illustrates how our personal beliefs and references color our perception.

      • Hey Anonymous. Would you like to let loose on me like you did on John? What you are doing is bully behavior—which is something fundies like you major in doing. I would be more than happy to turn over your changing tables and take my black snake whip after you. Leave John alone. This is the first and last time I am telling you—and then after that I will set your little fundie house on fire.

        • Breathe, Charles, no need to burn anyone’s house down. Look at it this way, we get to poke fun at this jerk as long as he’s here, right? So let’s focus on that.

        • I can think of four possible reasons:

          1) He is afraid his boss will find out what he is doing.

          2) He is afraid of being outed as a church pastor who hates nonfundies.

          3) He is afraid someone’s wrath will be visited upon his person because of what he believes.

          4) He is a fairly smart middle school or high school student—and he does not want you to know that.

      • I am really saddened that you took the time to actually read this, come onto this blog and then respond with such hatred in a spoken word. I feel really sorry for you that you feel the need to spread such insignificant insight on your part . These readers don’t care to hear what YOU have to say since all it seems to be is to belittle and words full of jealousy . I’ll pray for you. Too bad you felt the need to remain anonymous .
        I think his article was absolutely beautiful and heartwarming and I’m sure there are many people who will be glad to hear it .

      • This is very unkind and unfair. My brother was a part-time pastor and no one would ever have said a word that he was somehow less-than because of it. He was also a writer, so he wrote. Some people are blessed with more than one gift. He was also compassionate and a teacher. He was very much loved and John Pavlovitz is the closest man living to who my brother was and what he stood for. Please stop spewing your hatred in this world. It is toxic.

      • It amazes me how much time and effort is spent tearing down others (often in the name of God) simply because their views do not agree with their accuser’s. We would also be well-served to remember that church is a place more for sinners than for “saints”. God did not intend for others to be the judge of others’ sins; that is his job. We would also be well-served to remember that sin is sin; just because mine may be different from someone else’s does not make mine better or worse. Once again, sin is sin. Uf we would only spend as much time and energy loving others as we do judging, what a much nicer world this would be!

      • Anonymous the only hate I see is in your response. FYI be it ministering in a building, on the street, or in an online forum; if it takes up the better part of your day, every day then it is full time pastoring or ministry. Also how do you know he cannot get a full time position, do you make the hiring decisions of every religion, and church in America? One could call you a hypocrite but it would be just wasted words.

      • Hello Cowardly “Anonymous!” John’s Blogging does more to lift people up – something you are totally clueless about. You make “Ad Hominem” attacks on those who won’t denigrate or put down the people you despise. You are the Hypocrite. Love selectively??? That’s a hoot. I see nothing, but Conditional Love in your statement, because – obviously to me, to you think you’re God and that’s what gives you the right to tear down people who have struggled to be honest – something I think you lack.

      • He appears to me to love inclusiveness, and values the all of humanity, especially the socially oppressed, whom Jesus commanded his followers love. That’s the message I heard. Part-time or full-time pastor would not give him more or less access to refer to his earned title and express his spiritual views. Otherwise, your comment may be construed as judgmental and pious. Peace to you.

      • Dear Anon,
        Some of the best, most loving, and most loved pastors I have ever known have never and never will hold a position within a temporal church. They are pastors in the Body of Christ (aka The Christian Church). It’s a great group! You should join us.

      • Another “Anonymous” coward lurking on the internet, choosing to seek to hurt someone they don’t agree with rather than follow some sound advice I received long ago, If you have nothing good to say, then be quiet.”

        Mr. Pavlovitz,
        I know you see comments such as these every day and I, personally wish to apologize for the thoughtless and mean spirited nature of such individuals.
        For myself, as someone who identifies as LGBT+, I greatly appreciate your compassion and willingness to speak to those of us who too often find ourselves on the receiving end of these same self proclaimed “christians” who never bother to take Jesus’s message to heart.

        Thank you,
        Kira Moore

      • And if name-calling and denigration are the only reactions you can muster in response to this man’s brilliance, compassion, and empathy, then perhaps you should question whether you truly understand the meaning of the word “love.” This man clearly does not speak for you and that’s okay. You are not required to believe every word Pastor John writes – and he has written that many times. He speaks for many of us, however, both in and out of the LGBTQ community. I cannot speak for the Pastor, but if you could formulate your thoughts into civil discourse, I’m betting he would happily have a conversation with you, not to try to convince that he’s right, but to just interact with you honestly. Maybe you should try that rather than the the hostile denigration you are doing. Maybe there is something yo could learn.

      • I’m reading about love from Pastor John. The hate speech comes from you, Anonymous. Silence yourself, Go away, and pray for your own healing.

    • I am so sorry this happened to you. I hope you know every day how much God loves you, and I hope you surround yourself with people who love and celebrate you <3 you deserve that.

    • I like what gay billionaire, immigrant, Trump supporter, Peter Thiel, said last night at RNC…

      “These fake culture wars , only distract us from the real problem of economic decline, & the only candidate that that is honest about it is Donald Trump.’

      ‘Who cares about which bathrooms people use?”

      “Its time to rebuild America & Donald Trump is a builder.”

      ‘Im proud to be Gay. I’m proud to be a Republican. I’m proud to be an American”.

      Note: Thiel then received a standing ovation from 20,000 Republicans (and zero ‘boos’).

      • Well, yeah, because he’s a billionaire. Do yourself a favor and actually go read the GOP platform for the 2016 election season. In particular, pay close attention to their stance on the LGBT community. Even the Log Cabin Republicans have said it’s horrid, oppressive, and downright evil. How Thiel can still be a Republican is, quite honestly, beyond my comprehension.

        • I am a trans girl who has voted solid republican/libertarian for 20 years. I did so because I believe in small, limited, constitutional government.

          This year’s GOP platform and nominee are utterly repulsive to me and I cannot support either. Peter Thiel can do what he wants but he should not be surprised when Trump feels the heat from the right and starts implementing the most hateful parts of that platform. His choice of Mike Pence as his running mate tells me he is not done making nice with bigoted groups like the America Family Association, the Family Research Council, and Focus on the Family.

      • Remember what Jesus said. God causes the rain to fall on both the just and unjust. The fact that Trump has had $billions rain down upon him does not mean that he is Christian, just, or approved by God and rewarded. This world is full of evil people who have been rewarded with great wealth and great saints of Jesus who barely have a dime in their pockets.

      • Scary on so many levels. Love that Republicans now “love” LGBT people; would love it more if they would support the laws protecting our rights instead of constantly using us as a bargaining chip to divide legislators on bigger issues. I don’t believe Trump for one minute because he has never supported anything that long; he’s totally unpredictable. He’s for sale to the highest bidders.

    • The scars are a reminder of how far you have come my friend. They are no longer gaping wounds. Be healed and healthy. Beautiful, yes, you are!

  2. This is beautiful! I attend a church that accepts all people. We have a gay children’s minister who has three kids. A past pastor has come out and left the Methodist church because he could not hide anymore. These words mean so much. God made us and Jesus taught us to love all people. It’s that simple.

  3. I am 53 years old. I am a Christian. I am married. I am a lesbian who loves my wife only second to my love for God. I can count on one hand the times I have been told these things. I regularly tell others these very same things, and of course they are true. But for some strange reason, it makes such a difference to hear them directly. Thank you.

  4. May I add, from another pastor, that I couldn’t agree with you more, John. Once again, your words brought tears to my eyes and hope to my heart.

    I have read many headlines that say that the Christian Church is dying. I don’t believe that’s at all possible but I do believe something HAS to die within us. I also believe the death we are facing will lead us to a much more beautiful life as the Family of God; Inclusive of our LGBTQ brothers and sisters. It may be a painful death but, since no amount of reason or rational arguing against the status quo has convinced the ultra-conservative, it’s a necessary death with all its requisite pain.

    The abolition of slavery forced a reckoning with scriptures that seemed to say owning another human being was good and godly. In the same way we will be forced to see the treatment of our LGBTQ family members as immoral and ungodly in spite of the few scriptures that have been used to justify the Church’s long held position. John, I’d love you to read my latest post and let me know what you think of it…http://40churchesin40weeks.com/blog/those-who-cannot-remember-past-are-condemned-repeat-it/ . Don’t be disappointed with me for not being as bold as you are. I’m just aiming at a slightly different angle. I love you brother!

    In His love and service,
    Sharon Bollum

      • Thank you Charles. I loved your blog post. (Wow, it’s hard to see what I’m typing through the smoke still coming off my monitor though! LOL)

        I can’t say your anger isn’t justified and I certainly wouldn’t argue with most of your view. I’m a Republican but I don’t embody the characterization or values you ascribe to the party. I agonize over the fact that we don’t have a better people in line for the Presidency from either party. I am completely embarrassed by Trump and I wish he wouldn’t call himself a Christian because he clearly doesn’t know what that is supposed to mean. Believing in Jesus is supposed to lead to becoming LIKE Jesus and I don’t think Trump has any interest in that whatsoever. Frankly, I think it’s more important that the President of the United States be faithful to the constitution than identify as a marginal Christian.

        For the record, I wholly support social programs for the poor. I honestly don’t know any Republicans/Christians who don’t. I wouldn’t have survived my childhood without government aid. I am intimately familiar with the working poor, the incredibly poor… and the segment that milks the system for as much as they can get (I’m related to some of each!).

        I think us middle of the road people get trampled in this battle sometimes. I actually believe the Left needs the Right as much as the Right needs the Left… just as our national mascot, the Eagle of Freedom, requires both Wings to fly. It’s time for the farce we call The Moral Majority AND the ultra liberal to sit down and shut up. And it way past time for sincere Christians to stop co-signing bigotry, oppression and hate simply because some famous pastors say they should.

        If history is our greatest teacher, a hostile takeover of The Church might be the only way to move the Gospel forward in this world again. People like you and John are flipping over the tables of the money changers in the temple and it’s high time we do. There are millions of self-satisfied Christians who need to wake up and take a real look at the part they play in the injustice we help perpetuate. I’m grateful to you, John and other whistleblowers who are willing to call a spade a spade.

        My reach is a little different in that I hope to sway the many reasonable people who have become the blind following the blind without even realizing it. Their faith is ineffective and their witness is poison to the hungry and the lost. The reputation of The Church in the U.S. has been destroyed from the inside out. My hope is that in pointing out the distortions between what we say we believe and how we actually show up in the world will cause Christians to see how their lives are besmirching the reputation of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Maybe I’m wrong, but I still believe that those who love Jesus will respond to the conviction of His Holy Spirit … if we can help them hear His voice again.

        I pray that our audiences will grow by the millions! I pray that, in our sincerity, we never lose sight of the way of Christ. I love you my brother. I pray God’s blessings and peace will be with you.

      • Wow Mark. At least he is not an A-hole like you—who cannot tell it from the proverbial hole in the ground.

        You and Anonymous must have reached maximum frustration level. You know what I would do if I were you two? I would shake the dust off me feet as a testament against John and hit the road. Jesus commanded you to do so—so why not just do it? You are never going to change him. He survived being Roman Catholic and lived to tell about it. He has the same skin as Superman now.

        As for warning everyone else away from various forms of nonfundie Christian belief, I, Susan, Kathy, the Rev, and numerous others will be here to checkmate every fundie move you make and warn people to stay away from the fundie side of the house forever—and tell people to go find the real Jesus faith instead.

        I guess the Holy Spirit is not very strong in you two because you are flaming out badly around here. Both of you can come over to my blog and read about yourselves if you like. Just stand in front of the mirror on my blog—and take a good, long, de-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-ep look:

        https://faith17983.wordpress.com/

        And if you two are pastors—then that is really mighty damn sad.

        • Pssst, Charles…. stop implicating me in your dastardly plot to eradicate judgment and Fundamentalism… they may not let me past the Welcome Center at your state line. And I like your state. 🙁

          And we need to discuss with JP about getting you a leaderless for in here. Jus’ sayin’.

  5. Wonderful words, John. I am sharing them. When I read about or encounter someone as the pastor you describe above two thoughts run through my mind:

    #1 How deep in the closet is this person?

    #2 (applicable only to men who speak as did this pastor above) Is this person afraid of being raped by a gay man? Aside from the fact that I can’t think of a single example when a gay man has done that, I would also like to say to men who speak as did this pastor above “Welcome to the club. We women have had a fear of rape in the back of our minds since we are about fourteen or so. And there is a whole lot more evidence that our fears are justified.”

    • Pubescent awakenings. I had a 13-year-old girlfriend in middle school. She was good looking and shapely beyond her tender years—but not too awakened about pubescent things. After trips out shopping with her mother, she would come back home and give me a call to talk about how all these adult men were staring at her and leering at her wherever she went. She could not figure out why. This goes back to your rape comment about women who have to be more careful than men.

      I do not know any adult men who have been raped by other men in the shower room at the local health club or anywhere else for that matter. I never cease to be amused by all the silly gooses who worry about things like that. However, I have posted a remedy for this phobia over the years. If you are really that worried about it, listen up fundie pastors, all you have to do is go down to your local hardware store, buy a small rubber sink stopper, plug your a-hole with it, and then enter the group shower at the health club. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. LOL

      • Sadly I have actually met a male rapist of men. But he was a pretty screwed up individual and a psychopath and it is extremely rare.

  6. I am as well, and I also have an intersex condition. John is the first pastor I’ve ever met who has been accepting of the LGBT community. I love reading his blogs. 🙂

  7. Darla commented on If You’re LGBTQ, Here’s What One Pastor Really Hopes You Know.

    in response to :

    It would help readers if you changed the title to “What A Part-Time Pastor Really Hopes You Know” because you are not a full-time pastor and cannot get a full-time pastorate. You show up on Sunday mornings and work with youth, and that is the extent of things. Apart from that, you spend all your […]

    You know, if you don’t agree with the writer, then so be it. But getting personal is unnecessary. It is funny, I have always wondered why it is that so many people who are negative, critical, spew hate and have strong opinions share them “anonymous” … Belief does not run very deep if it is spoken anonymously … Hiding behind a keyboard is cowardly.

    Darla, I agree with you. The person who made that comment is a troll unable to see how full of grace and humility John is. Which is a very sad thing to say.

  8. This doesn’t really have anything to do with this blog post (I’m not gay, and do not know many gay people) but I love reading this blog because it always makes me feel like it’s OK if I’m not always bubbling over w/ joy, it’s ok to be sad sometimes and it’s ok to admit that sometimes living is just really hard and scary.

    • Dear Adventuregirl,
      Welcome to a safe place. You are more than enough. You are a child of God and worthy of happiness. We are all sad sometimes, but if your sadness comes from any bigotry in a less than welcoming world around you, please know that there are many loving, welcoming people who believe in your humanity.
      Keep smiling. Love is all around you.

  9. Dear Hateful “Anonymous”,

    You’re an Obvious Troll.
    Back under your dank bridge you go — Be Gone!

    Sincerely,
    Everyone

  10. It would help readers if you changed the title to “What A Part-Time Pastor Really Hopes You Know” because you are not a full-time pastor and cannot get a full-time pastorate. You show up on Sunday mornings and work with youth, and that is the extent of things. Apart from that, you spend all your […]

    Of course, John is completely aware that his blog is going to attract trolls. We know a troll by its fruits: divisiveness, language which is not validating and respectful of others. Trolls are also attention-seekers, anything to build up their egos at the expense of others.

    We Christians are sadly unaccustomed to the gift of exhortation with which the Holy Spirit has so clearly blessed John. One wy we can know he has been so gifted is that he always exhorts to keep our eyes, hearts, minds, souls, spirits fixed on Jesus. He also exhorts us to those actions which convinces others that we are fixed on Jesus. These are the actions that demonstrate love of God and love of neighbor.

  11. Just to split a hair or two, but nobody is perfect apart from Christ for ‘All have sinned and fall short of God’s glory’……… You included.
    This doesn’t mean that God loves LGBTQ people any less. Jesus died for us all.

    • You are, of course, correct. The problem with fundies is that they have an unconscious “Sin Power Rating Scale” in their mental templates. They use this rating scale as a thought filter when they deal with other people and religious issues. Right now, they are choosing to think that LGBTQ sins are on the same plain as the famous unforgivable sin. They take none of the so-called “7 Deadly Sins in the Bible with any degree of real seriousness—because they see them as minor sins we all commit without really thinking much about them. Instead, they are focused on what they regard as the BIG SINS.

  12. after trips out shopping with her mother, she would come back home and give me a call to talk about how all these adult men were staring at her and leering at her wherever she went. She could not figure out why. This goes back to your rape comment about women who have to be more careful than men.

    Charles, I am so very sorry she experienced this. But it never does end for women. Just yesterday while at Costco I observed a man with two children in his cart ogling a woman’s butt for a prolonged period of time.

    I bring up the idea that homophobic males might be afraid of being raped in the hope that if they are that they then might understand what we women experience almost all or lives.

    Personally, I say let us all live by the Baptismal Covenant of the Episcopal Church. That leaves no room for any form of homophobia or disrespect of women.

    Celebrant: Do you believe in God the Father?
    People: I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
    Celebrant: Do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
    People: I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
    He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
    Celebrant: Do you believe in God the Holy Spirit?
    People: I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.
    Celebrant: Will you continue in the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in the prayers?
    People: I will, with God’s help.
    Celebrant: Will you persevere in resisting evil, and, whenever you fall into sin, repent and return to the Lord?
    People: I will, with God’s help.
    Celebrant: Will you proclaim by word and example the Good News of God in Christ?
    People: I will, with God’s help.
    Celebrant: Will you seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving your neighbor as yourself?
    People: I will, with God’s help.
    Celebrant: Will you strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being?
    People: I will, with God’s help.

  13. John P – bless you, bless you, bless you and bless your ministry of love to the LGBTIQ community. Even those of us who have positive family and friend relationships still need to hear that God made us and loves us. You are sunshine on a cloudy day.

  14. Thank You! Just the words I needed to hear today. My spirit has been crushed by my Christian parents who continue to “love this sinner”. It is very difficult being such a disappointment for just being who God made me. Keep up the good work.

  15. Ok so you state: “You are not a mistake. The same God we credit for the stars and the sea and the butterfly’s wings created you. This means you are made of the same stuff God is and with the very same care. Never allow someone to make you feel as though you are at all an error in need of correcting, that you are somehow less-than. You are intentional and perfect.”

    Let me get this straight. You tell someone that they are not an error in need of correcting. Yet you support transgender. You can’t have it both ways. Either you are wonderfully made in GOD’s image. Knitted in the womb and wholly perfect OR you self determine what is perfect and that GOD does make mistakes. The problem with the whole liberal mindset is that they believe there is no absolute right and wrong. That each person self determines what is right & wrong. There is no black and white, everything is gray. The 10 Commandments are just 10 suggestions. What is a fundamental belief for Christianity is just ‘morally superior Christians’ passing judgment on others. You either believe the BIBLE is a complete works of GOD or just a collection of fairy tales. As a Bible believing Christian, you don’t get to choose which passages in the Bible are GOD breathed scriptures and which are not. Which of HIS laws you are going to uphold and which you are going to disobey. If you do, then you can’t call yourself a Christian. You are worse than the heathen. For they don’t know the Bible and don’t know HIS laws. Yet you do and you choose to disobey HIS Word.

    The ‘liberal believer’ uses feelings to justify their beliefs. A conservative uses ‘facts’. The fact that GOD made man & woman as two separate and different creatures is undeniable. HE made them to compliment one another with different attributes & strengths. HE created them as sexual beings and made it pleasurable so that we would do it to help procreate the species. He designed our bodies so that it is obvious how our sexual organs unite. A simple biological examination will reveal how our sexual organs were meant to be used. That is a fact that can not be argued.

    I know this is going to raise a bunch of ruckus and I’m going to be called a ‘mean spirited fundie’. If I were to let you go forward without hearing the truth, I would not be doing what HE has called us to do. To call out false teaching and not let the weak be led astray. With HIS love.

    • “Aw Andy…….Andy, Andy, Andy!!! That is the way George “Kingfish” Stevens used to say it. New around here are you? Please feel free to visit a while at my blog:

      https://faith17983.wordpress.com/

      I am glad you know what sex organs are and how they are to be used. We all thought they had something to do with music, keys, air, and different-sized pipes—and we were having a great deal of trouble figuring out how to have sex with one. Thank you for correcting us Andy. We would never call you a mean-spirited fundie—at least until you turn mean. However, I think your knowledge of the Christian faith is small and naive—and that you are one of the Christian milk pups you are trying to protect from all the “bwig, bwad, mainwine Cwistians” who know how to wead and understand what they are weading. Good grief. Are you in high school somewhere?

      • Oh Pweeze Charles the Great. Educate me in the ways of the WORD. You of so great knowledge. Share your wonderful wisdom with me. Tell me where it says GOD approves of homosexual relations. Tell me where it says he makes mistakes in designing each individual inside the womb.

        You are nothing but a blowhard, back-alley bully. You can try to intimidate and insult me all you want. My identity is in HIM not what some blog bully says I am. You are so mighty sitting there behind your computer spitting out lies and half-truths. Hopefully you will see the TRUTH before it is too late. But twisting the WORD to fit your beliefs and lifestyle is not the way.

        You can’t challenge the truth of HIS design other than to spit out derogatory comments. Once again you prove that liberals can only justify their beliefs with feelings and not facts.

        • 1) As the Apostle Paul makes crystal clear in the Book of Galatians, the Old Testament law is past and gone—ALL OF IT—especially for Christians. The only people who were ever bound by that covenant and its laws were the ancient Jews and their descendants with whom God made this specific covenant. Gentiles like you and me were never part of that ancient covenant, were never obligated to abide by the terms of that covenant, and are not bound by the terms of that covenant today. What fundie nitwits like you try to do is to bind all mankind under the slavery of the Old Testament law—the very bondage Jesus came to release us from in the first place—and worst of all—you try to bind saved Christians under that Old Testament law the second after Jesus saves them. And worst of all above even that, fundies like you pick and choose (cherry pick) the Old Testament laws you want to obey because they suit your secular culture ideal and ignore the rest you do not want to obey—forgetting the Apostle Paul’s clear admonition that if a Christian or anyone else foolishly thinks he is required to obey even one of the Old Testament laws, then he is required at all times henceforth to obey the WHOLE LAW. Jesus instituted his NEW COVENANT with those who would come to him—a covenant based not on law—but on grace, LOVE, and general principles of relationship to God and men that can be applied in any time , place , or condition. Christianity is not a religion or faith based on laws or moralism of any kind. It is a covenant of the heart united with other hearts in Jesus:

          A) The revelation and work of God accomplished in Jesus Christ.

          B) The being of the church as the body of Christ.

          C) The faith and life of Christians in truth and love (Ellul 1986).

          Fundie legalism as practiced in the United States today is heresy plain and simple because it violates the new covenant. For God sakes man–read your Bible!!!

          2) With regard to LGBTQ people, under the new covenant of Jesus, we are required to love them. I see nothing under the new covenant of Jesus that requires me to persecute homosexuals and make their lives miserable day in and day out. I shall not now and I shall not ever participate in a fundie-led persecution and witch hunt against LGBTQ people. Their LGBTQ condition is between them and God. I think they and God can work it out between themselves.

          3) What lifestyle? Oh, you must mean my gay lifestyle. Sorry, Sherlock. I am not an LGBTQ person. I am male, and I have a female wife of 37 years—one wife only—and two kids that are a whole lot more like Jesus than most of the fundie jerks I meet on this blog.

          4) My gift of the Holy Spirit is spiritual discernment—the ability to easily and quickly recognize spiritual bullshit when I see it. It is a gift between God and me—no middle men allowed. Christian fundamentalism and conservative evangelicalism—as they are currently practiced, packaged, and clothed in the United States are evil—plain and simple. As Jesus said, “These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.” I just speak up about the evil that I and many others within the universal church see in Christian fundamentalism, conservative evangelicalism, and the deluded people who follow these two “isms” from Hell. If you choose to call that bullying, so be it. The Bible calls it “rebuking.”

          I would also remind your that “historical fundie militancy” set the national standard for religious bullying and perfected its cruelty to a fine art across most of the 20th century—an art well on display in fundie dealings with LGBTQ people. How does it feel to have your own fundie-created methods turned on you and “your kind” with a vengeance. Not much fun is it? Maybe you fundies should have been more careful about what you were sowing—knowing full well that you would one day reap a bitter crop when all of your spiritual pride, arrogance, and hatred got reflected back on you in some future time.

          5) Many unfortunate things are knitted in the human womb. Downs syndrome children, Siamese twins, children with four legs, children born without faces, sickle cell anemia, etc. You can ascribe all of this “perfect” womb knitting to God if you like. However, I think you should consider the fact that we live in an imperfect (the Bible would say “fallen” to capture it) world that does not reflect the perfection that God once intended for this world. Put another way, unexpected, surprising, and heartbreaking “shit happens.” Maybe you should factor that into some of your all-knowing fundie equations.

          6) Twisting the Word? Now there is the pot calling the kettle black!!!! You are aware, I hope, that a great deal of the current day fundie understanding (or I should say misunderstanding) of Holy Scripture is very recent in time and deviates substantially from the way scripture has been traditionally read and understood in the church by the great saints and scholars throughout Christian history around the world over the past 1,900 years. You seriously, seriously expect this whole 1,900 years of scriptural reading and understanding to fall on its knees in error before Preacher Roscoe Buford down at the Possum Holler IFB Church. You expect people to believe that Jesus abandoned the entire Christian faith for 1,900 years and left it in total darkness so Homer, Buford, and some of his friends in the Great Lakes region could finally step in and set the whole world straight on the gospel—the deluded fundie way. That rings mighty damned hollow with me and with most other Christians on this planet.

          Be sure and catch my blog article today on The Rapture:

          https://faith17983.wordpress.com/

          • P.S. I see you have bought into the Religious Right’s petty notion that conservatives are all about facts and liberals are all about emotions—and the latter is somehow always wrong and the former is somehow always right.

            I would remind you that the New Testament message of Jesus Christ is not about numbers, facts, and logic. It is about emotion—particularly love and compassion. By your own faulty conservative reasoning, the gospel itself is wrong because it is all about emotion—and damn that bad old emotion stuff.

            I have seen how your conservative facts play out in the real world. We have a local newspaper columnist who is an accountant and a member of a church. He is also extremely conservative and lives by your corrupt, anti-Jesus philosophy—and he lays it out in spades in his weekly newspaper columns. If a child is sick and needs a $300,000 surgery, he looks into the account ledger. The ledger says the account contains only $348. He says: “Aha!!! I am Christian, a conservative too, and I have a cold, hard fact. This child cannot afford this expensive operation. Too bad for her. Facts are facts. Screw her and let her die!!!”

            The thing he does not understand is that Jesus—soft, old, stupid, loving, compassionate, liberal, overly emotional Jesus—loves this sick child and places no value on money. In his two-bit, bleeding heart jesus mind, people and love for people are more important than the facts of money. So what does Jesus say? Jesus says: ” I love this little girl, and I love the “least of these.” (Matthew 25: 32-46). You better be figuring out a way to get this little girl an operation—or else—because I don’t give a shit about your money facts. I give a shit about sick little girls. You better be finding some money for this operation if you know what’s good for you!!!”

            Jesus highly values the liberal emotions you conservatives hate so much, and He does not care much about the so-called “facts” that the evil conservative heart dreams up as excuses to avoid doing the right thing.

            I think you should take a good, long look at this post on my blog—a good long look to get a feel for what Jesus thinks about your conservative philosophy—because Jesus was and is a liberal—not a libertine—but a liberal. Here is the link:

            https://faith17983.wordpress.com/2015/08/09/what-happens-when-the-church-sells-out-to-a-political-party/

          • Ok lets address this with scripture.
            You say we are not bound to the old testoments covenants.
            Ok well with that said we have accept that even in the new testament scripture condemns homosexuality. Look at 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV
            Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of god.

            Thats whats written in scripture and is the word of God. So right there in black and white it says someone who is homosexual will not inherit heaven in the new testament.
            Its a sin period. Now does that make a person an abomination absolutely not god LOVES everyone. He created everyone and has an unconditional love for the person… But… The sin is an abomination. God wants perfection in heaven… Now no ones perfect you might say.. Absolutely true… But… Jesus offers GRACE and what an amazing opportunity that is. But in order to recieve that GRACE you have to repent and turn away from your sins. This is clearly written in the bible. This is where faith is hard you have to give up the life of sin and turn completely to jesus and if a so called preacher preaches anything other then this then he is misleading gods children.
            1 John 3:6-9
            No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
            Dear children do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
            In the same breath jesus says in Matthew 7:1-2
            Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
            What does this mean? How do these interact? Ill tell you.
            It is not our place to judge anyone. God was amazing and gave us free will the freedom to make our choices and as such gave freedom to sin. It is not our job to condemn people for there sins but at the same time dont tell someone what there doing is not a sin when it is. What we as Cristians need to be doing is;
            Dont be a judgemental person towards another for there decisions focus on your decisions and focus on your sins and bettering yourself. Dont tell someone they are wrong for being gay (but dont tell them they are right either.) focus on you. And when someone who is Gay wants to change there ways and confess there sins and need help finding god be there for that person lead gods lost children home.

    • Andy? Do you realize that you’ve fallen by your own sword. That’s an awful wound you’ve got there. And the only tourniquet adequate for you is a getting a Christ-like heart. You should hurry… You’re bleeding out.

  16. Let me get this straight. You tell someone that they are not an error in need of correcting. Yet you support transgender. You can’t have it both ways. Either you are wonderfully made in GOD’s image. Knitted in the womb and wholly perfect OR you self determine what is perfect and that GOD does make mistakes. The problem with the whole liberal mindset is that they believe there is no absolute right and wrong. That each person self determines what is right & wrong. There is no black and white, everything is gray. The 10 Commandments are just 10 suggestions. What is a fundamental belief for Christianity is just ‘morally superior Christians’ passing judgment on others. You either believe the BIBLE is a complete works of GOD or just a collection of fairy tales. As a Bible believing Christian, you don’t get to choose which passages in the Bible are GOD breathed scriptures and which are not. Which of HIS laws you are going to uphold and which you are going to disobey. If you do, then you can’t call yourself a Christian. You are worse than the heathen. For they don’t know the Bible and don’t know HIS laws. Yet you do and you choose to disobey HIS Word.

    *****************

    Andy, I have to ask you if you have ever heard of sin? Have you read the bit in the Bible that talks about the sin of one affecting even the next ten generations? And since everyone is a sinner, the effects of sin go on forever.

    The Bible tells us all of creation has been affected by sin. Seems to me that the effects of sin are in our very DNA. We know there are genetic markers for all sorts of illnesses. Therefore it seems clear to me that sin has affected the genders of some people so they are born into the wrong bodies.

  17. Charles the Great,
    Wow don’t you have a huge ego! For all your bluster. You have yet to provide me with any facts about GOD’s approval of the homosexual lifestyle. Why don’t you go back and read through YOUR Bible and tell me where he says it is OK for man to sleep another man(or women). All you have given me is your beliefs and feelings. You have yet to offer any defense against HIS design of the male and female bodies. For such a devout Christian, you sure do have a filthy mouth. Do you talk like that around your fellow “Enlightened Christians”? I’m sure they are all impressed with your ‘superior knowledge’ of ALL things Christian. You are paritally right about the New Estament being about love. HE also admonishes us to not listen to those with silvery tongues (Charles). I too have the gift of discernment. And I’m good at discerning those that are full of themselves and talk alot but say nothing of substance.

    I have too much on my plate to spend any more time jabbering with a fool that will never understand that HE calls us to be in this world but not OF this world.

    • I know what those so-called LGBTQ “clobber scriptures” say. I also know that you personally, in your own life, do not follow all of those many other Old Testament laws and scriptures dealing with other subjects. You wish condemnation of LGBTQ people on the basis of your highly esteemed clobber scriptures, forgetting all the while that you merit the same condemnation for violating on a daily basis many of those other laws and scriptures dealing with other things. You would expect others to let you go free despite your many sins, yet you would personally follow through on the Old Testament command to kill homosexuals. In the end, you highly esteem one pet portion of the scriptures—while choosing to piss on the others so you can go free from punishment. I gave you my answers, which you chose to ignore. That’s fine.

      But let me ask you a question. How long have you struggled inside with your own homosexual desires? It has been my general experience that Christians (particularly fundies) who are hypersensitive to the homosexuality issue and live on the side of hatred and condemnation—which you obviously do—are often (although not always) having mighty internal personal struggles with their own homosexual urges and desires. They fear that general societal acceptance (or even mere tolerance) of LGBTQ people will open up a door that was once kept tightly closed. As long as that door stayed closed, they felt safe. However, if that door were to ever open wide, meaning that society would finally accept their homosexuality and not socially sanction them or otherwise punish them for it, they would be unable to hold back from crossing the threshold in that doorway, would indeed cross it, and would find their soul burned to a blackened crisp forever in Hell. So, I guess that is a really big problem you may have there Andy. That societal door has finally slung wide open—and it scares you to death.

      On the one hand, you feel like you are about to jump out of your own skin with anxiety if you cannot get that nice, big, juicy dick you crave constantly, but on the other hand, if you go through that wide open doorway, Jesus is going to fry your ass. If only that door would just close again and lock itself—some way—any way—only then could you feel safe again. But I have to say something more to you honestly Andy. I am a professional social scientist. Human culture and human culture change are my business–just like finance, accounting, or whatever is your business. I can, right here and right now, give you a 98 percent guarantee that the wide open LGBTQ doorway is never going to close again here in the United States. It is wide open permanently. The government is not going to close it, and the fundie churches will never succeed in closing it because most Americans do not take fundie churches seriously. If you have 60 years of life left or only 10 years left, that door is going to keep standing wide open. Therefore, you have a decision to make. You can deny your homosexual urges and be chaste. If so, I commend you for that. If not, I am not going to encourage you to go through that doorway. However, if you do go through that doorway for some reason, I am not going to condemn you for it because my own sins in other areas of life are too great. The decision is yours—and you will need to evaluate whether God’s grace is large enough to cover a personal condition that is beyond your ability to fully control and evaluate who God really is and why, out of 7 billion people, you have been selected to be saddled with such a heavy burden in a world in which most people have zero heterosexual urges—-zero. Good luck and God’s blessings to you in your journey.

      As for my occasional bad language, I think Tony Campolo said it best:

      “While you were sleeping last night, 30,000 children died from malnutrition, and you do not give one shit about it—and even worse—you are more upset that I used the word “shit” than you are that 30,000 children died last night.”

      Tootles.

  18. Andy, I suggest you read three books:

    Reasonable and Holy: Engaging Same-Sexuality
    by Tobias Stanislas Haller

    God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships
    by Matthew Vines

    Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe
    by John Boswell

  19. Pingback: If you’re LGBTI, here’s what one pastor really hopes you know - Daily News San Francisco

  20. WOW, this thread went from making me cry with joy from the original post which made me feel Christ’s inclusive love and it went downhill from there.
    I am used to the likes of Andy, not saying it doesn’t affect me, I’ve been beat up, shot at, shunned, called every name in the book, etc. but Charles the minute you chose to tell Andy that he wanted a big, juicy dick, you sexualized him and that happens to me daily and is a form of bullying. To me, it feels like rape. Secondly, you told him if he chose to remain chaste, you would commend him, should I? Is that the only way that I will be granted eternal life with the Lord because this is exactly what I’m being told. Thirdly, you tell him the if he crosses that threshold you will forgive him. I know the Lord doesn’t even need to. I nor anyone of my fellow brothers and sisters in the LGBTQ community have chosen this. Who in their right mind would choose to be literally think about such things as should I hold her hand here or will I get the crap beaten out of me? Is it more important to prove the fundie wrong or make the disenfranchised feel welcomed and loved by our Dear Lord. He commands me to love my enemies and it really tests me and I fail miserably at times but this is a public forum and my prayer is that no young LGBTQ people came here for solace and acceptance and read the comments. My favorite scripture to read and study because all of my sins are against it is I COR 13 It’s Christ’s commandment not mine.

  21. Thank you. THANK YOU. I was was about 15 when my mother first told me, “If you ever decide to be gay, I’ll still love you – because that what’s moms have to do – but you just need to know that I won’t be able to have you or that person in my home. Like you won’t be able to come home for holidays or go on family vacations.” …….. It was not an undercurrent in our home; it was blatant. Gay people were sick, they were sinners, they were going to hell, they shouldn’t be allowed to adopt children because they are all child molesters (not shitting you), etc. And then, I didn’t date much (due to an entire memoir of reasons), which led her to ask at least once a year, usually in relation to myself and a dear friend, a family member I had created, if I had decided I was gay and if my best friend was, in fact, my sinful lover. It took me until I was 29 and had fought endless fights in the relationship field to even give myself the option of loving a person, a human being, who happened to be the same gender as myself. And then I fell into, what I think may have been, love. Feeling something right and comfortable and maybe even safe. But that loop of hate, the hate we are TAUGHT, is continually in my head. The safe places are hard to find. And I am heartbroken and scared and a bit out of hope in the current climate. We are just trying to be people in a place we want to be safe; a place we could truly just ‘be.’ A place where we could find that ‘me too’ that we all so desperately search for. As my friend Laura (In Others’ Words) so eloquently said, “…a place where young men and women, many of whom had no safe haven- not even their families of origin- could exhale.” All that rambling to say, let us NEVER stop making safe spaces. Please, by god, let us NEVER, EVER stop loving even when there are consequences, even when people judge harshly, even when we are exiled. Because if we provide family to each other, we will always have someone in exile with us.

  22. Thought provoking and progressive perspective, however, unsatisfying that, as a pastor, author provides no scripture references anywhere in article to support the “warm and fuzzy” statements made. Look forward to scriptural reference support be it from the Gospels and/or Epistles (Paul’s thoughts on this topic may be controversial; and therefore intended for a different time).

  23. Pingback: Послание пастора ЛГБТ-сообществу | ЛГБТ-служение "Nuntiare et Recreare"

  24. My children gay or straight are a part of me. I carried them beneath my heart. I could not love one and not the other. I am sure God feels the same way.

  25. I’m almost totally on board with this, but isn’t a central point of Christianity the brokenness of human beings? We are made in the image and likeness of God, to be sure, but we are also sinners who need redeeming–isn’t that why God sent Jesus? To redeem our sins and heal our brokenness? In fact, we don’t even deserve redemption, we can’t earn it, but God gives it to us as a gift, sprung from his infinite love for us. I think you might zero in on this point a bit–what you probably meant to say is that your friend’s sexuality is not broken. But there are surely ways in which she is a sinner, just like I am, and you are.

  26. Why do I only see comments from the both extreme ends? 🙁 Is there really no golden mean in this conservation?
    We, Christians all know that the New Testament condemns homosexuality. It is a sin. A sin as lying, swearing or hurting others with words, being aggressive, not doing Gods will, etc…
    We are all sinners, homosexuals are not a bit worse or better than us. But here is something very important: the only way to God is to repent, admit you sins and ask for His help that you may change. This is possible through the gift of Jesus, but we all know that.
    So it is indeed very important, that we identify sin.

    I personally dont really understand people who would say that LGBT people are somewhat worse than others. I dont understand those who persecute them. Who destroy their lifes… But!

    We should not encourage them either. Just as we dont encourage lying, rage, rudeness, unfaithfulness, etc… I have started to repeat myself, so I stop here.
    I hope my message has gone through, but just to sum it up:
    LGBT people are in no way different than an average sinner (any of us), we all have to repent and ask for the power of the Holy Spirit so he may cleanse us and make us anew.

  27. Thank you for such wonderful words, unfortunately for me the damage has already been done and no.longer possible to be repaired even by this almighty being everyone is flapping their gums about. I haven’t had faith, trust, or belief in this being for awhile, it has never produced anything other than words, or delusions that everybody just says. Never has there been any Actions produced by anybody. Always have to find and produce my own solutions with my own two hands and feet of my own energy, and navigate the landscape of life avoiding the Self Reigious, Self Absorbed, Self Preclaiming, bible THUMPING want to be christains polluting this environment of Eden. Hope your message gets to the right people. Too lateto make any difference for me. It’s just words anyway. That’s all god produces is words, with no actions. I am a Missourian, and It has only showed me words, with no actions. Thank you anyway. Best wishes in your helping my brothers and sisters in the LGBTQ community, the unmighty lost my soul all by it’s lonesome, and doesn’t have the capability to repair the damage it’s followers have already done. Thank you for your time.

  28. GOD IS ALWAYS RIGHT, ABOUT EVERYTHING, ALL THE TIME! PERIOD! WE ALL HAVE CHOICES TO MAKE & THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES TO THOSE CHOICES GOOD & BAD! THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE CONVICTOR OF SIN, HE DRAWS US TO JESUS! I GUARANTEE ALL OF U BY THE WORD OF GOD ALL SIN HAS TO BE REPENTED OF!
    Matthew 5:17 [ Christ Fulfills the Law ] “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. WHEN WE ARE IN CHRIST WE WILL NOT WANT TO COMMIT SINFUL ACTS, MURDER, HOMOSEXUALITY, ADULTERY, ETC! WE LOVE THE PERSON JUST AS GOD DOES BUT HATE THE SIN JUST AS GOD DOES!! AGAPE LOVE DOES NOT MEAN U AGREE WITH OR ANYONE CAN GET BY WITH UR SINS! PERIOD!
    Romans 13:8 [ Love Your Neighbor ] Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
    1 Timothy 1:9-11 (NKJV)
    9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
    Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

  29. 2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;

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