White, Conservative, Christian Friend—I Wish You Really Were Pro-Life


You tell me that you voted for Donald Trump for one reason: because you’re pro-life.

Despite everything you’ve seen and know about this man (much of which you openly lament), you say that you just can’t support someone who doesn’t share your burden, and that you’re voting solely this issue.

Life, you say is the ultimate deal breaker for you.

I wish that were true.

I actually don’t believe you’re pro-life, I believe you’re anti-abortion, which is a far more selective and convenient defense of Humanity. From where I’m standing it seems as though “Life” for you, comprises a very narrow demographic—one that bears a striking resemblance to you. The unborn are easy to advocate for because you can idealize them into something palatable to you, something benign and comfortable, something in your own image.

You see, it’s not that you’re really pro-life, you’re pro-straight, white, Christian fetuses.

I can tell by how often your heavy burden for the sanctity of life evaporates upon delivery. In so many cases this compassion really has a nine-month expiration date, as if life begins at conception but ends upon leaving the birth canal. The completion of that third trimester is actually the shelf life of your passionate regard for much of the living.

Because if that life you say you so treasure, one day converts to Islam, you label it dangerous, you see it as a threat, you applaud suggestions of its expulsion, you deny it open worship.

If that life eventually comes out as LGBTQ, you condemn its soul, harass it in your workplace and church, try to prevent its marriage, tell it where and when it can use a public bathroom. You bully it and drive it to suicide.

If that life has brown skin and wears baggy pants and gets gunned down during a traffic stop, you not only have little grief over its loss, but readily blame it for its own execution.

If that life is strapped to a prison gurney and pumped full of drugs that will cease its lungs from expanding while its terrified mind comprehends it all, you celebrate the occasion as justice being served—after a last meal you resent having to pay for.

If that life has to endure its formative years in overcrowded, grossly underfunded public schools, you tell it to “pull itself up by its own bootstraps”, while nestled in the cloistered, privileged gated community of a Suburbia where bootstraps come with a birth certificate.

If that life has working parents who can’t make a living wage, you label it a lazy, unproductive drain on society always looking for handouts and trying to work the system to its advantage.

If that life needs healthcare because its undeveloped heart can barely beat on its own, you’re suddenly empty of empathy and low on generosity—unless it can pull its own weight and pay the premiums.

If that life doesn’t eat enough fruits and vegetables because it lives in urban areas where such things are scarce and financially prohibitive, you ridicule its obesity and sickness as signs of cultural overindulgence and gluttony.

If that life is sexually assaulted you want to blame it for its promiscuity and immodesty, and wonder why it didn’t just keep its legs closed and why it can’t just move on and why it is so easily offended by “locker room banter.”

If that life is one day sent overseas to defend liberties here; separated from spouses, children, and parents and placed directly in harm’s way, you’re far more cavalier exposing its vulnerability and far less concerned about whether or not it is sacred.

If that life doesn’t reside in the continental US or speak English and comes here fleeing oppression, poverty, and war you’ll never understand, you ask it to go back and “go through the proper channels”, instead of the barely sea-worthy makeshift raft or the stinking, stifling storage container it nearly died in trying to get here.

I wish you were pro-life, my friend—I really do.

I wish all human beings mattered as much to you as caucasian embryos do. I wish that once these diverse babies are thrust out into a violent, difficult, painful world; many enduring disadvantages, obstacles, and trials you will likely never experience—that you actually gave more of a damn about them.

Because if you did, Life would be far bigger to you.

You would want to do more than prevent abortions.

As vigorously, passionately, and loudly…

You’d want to prevent hunger and poverty.
You’d want to prevent illiteracy and child mortality and forced prostitution.
You’d want to prevent racism and bigotry and homophobia.
You’d want kids in the “bad neighborhood” to have great schools and teachers just like your kids have there in the “good neighborhood.”

You’d want to support single parents and the terminally ill and the mentally ill by helping them carry their oversized burden.
You’d want those dreaming of coming to and contributing to this country to stay here.

You’d want religious freedom even for people who aren’t Christian.
You’d want LGBTQ people to live and work and worship and love as they desire.
You’d want people of color not to have to fear law enforcement and not to be disproportionately incarcerated.
You’d want fewer guns in the hands of kids and criminals and those with mental illness.
You’d want to prevent violence and workplace termination based on gender identity and sexual orientation.
You’d want a living wage for all people who work hard, and healthcare for their children that won’t have to replace their daily meals.

These might also be deal breakers for you.

I am a person of Life. That is what my faith calls me to be.

I don’t celebrate when a woman terminates a pregnancy (I honestly don’t know anyone who does), but my advocacy for life also goes well beyond the womb, and includes a far more diverse swath of Humanity than only those who look, speak, or worship the way I do. It includes immigrants and Muslims and Atheists and my enemies.

I wish we were partners in that wider affirmation of the living, because that would be cause of celebration and reason for hope and a visible sign of America’s greatness.

I am pro-all life because it is all sacred; not only when its heart begins beating, but as it beats and when it struggles to beat and up until it ceases to beat.

I defend all life equally. I celebrate it all fully. I protect it all passionately.

I really wish you did too.


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1,012 thoughts on “White, Conservative, Christian Friend—I Wish You Really Were Pro-Life

    • Absolutely fantastic expose of what it really means to care about human life.
      One thing I would add; when we see all forms of unnecessary death receive the same attention as abortion by those who are radical pro-life we will know that all life is revered.

        • This argument is wrong. This idea that pro-life embodies immigration and refugees and other religions is a liberal notion to detract from the Pro-Life movement. It was authored by Cardinal Bernadine and originally called :Seamless Garment. Cardinal Bernadine was later revealed to be a homosexual, pedophile and Satanist. It This all encompassing so called “pro-life ” stance ends up making it moral and “pro life” to vote for someone like Hilary Clinton or Obama, who are pro-refugee . It is a false argument, a liberal ideology and detracts from the true Pro-Life movement.

            • Hi John, little late to the game. Um, sources? Let me site mine and give you my thoughts. Please respond, as I want to understand and grow not argue and hate. (For the record I’m Hispanic/white [aren’t we all from Adam and Eve?], low income, lives with a single grandmother [mom did meth] had 3 surgeries because of it, acesexual and autistic. Just fyi going in.)
              Because if that life you say you so treasure, one day converts to Islam _I want to know everything about why, as I’m finding my way through life._
              If that life eventually comes out as LGBTQ, _I think of it as a person who has had a divorce, a lifestyle, and something I’m not going to judge._
              If that life has working parents who can’t make a living wage,
              If that life has brown skin and wears baggy pants and gets gunned down during a traffic stop, _I want to know their story and see if their family needs help_.
              If that life is strapped to a prison gurney…, _I wonder why there aren’t better reform programs_.
              If that life has to endure its formative years in overcrowded, grossly underfunded public schools… _I wonder why there aren’t tutor programs nation wide and why I myself was almost a suicide case._
              If that life has working parents who can’t make a living wage, _I ask them how I can help, and ask them to stay strong (not get sweet relief of illegal chemicals “draining the system”), while I find a way to help._
              If that life needs healthcare because its undeveloped heart can barely beat on its own, _I question why the hospital room on my surgery cost 45k. Not the operator, not the anesthesiologist, the room, nurses, and less than 4 hours of time._
              If that life doesn’t eat enough fruits and vegetables _I wonder what would happen if the government stopped paying farmers NOT to plant._
              This next one bothers me so I’ll try to stay calm but for the record, HOW DARE YOU.
              If that life is sexually assaulted, _I want to storm the justice system for giving rapists 6 months and asking the person if they were drunk even though the law says it didn’t matter. I want to punch anyone who says it only happens to girls and tell them about my guy friend and find a way to give people with PTSD an actual panic room._
              If that life is one day sent overseas to defend liberties here; _I want to know that there are reform camps so murders aren’t killed but aren’t just left walking away._
              If that life doesn’t reside in the continental US _I want to let it come and go as it pleases seeing as how we are the only creatures who pay to live anywhere._
              I want to know where you got your sources for what White Conservative, Christians think. I’m not even talking election. I want to know why you think that we don’t care about anything but babies. I care more about depression and sexual assault victims because I’ve seen it’s effect.
              And there in lies the key: we can’t fight every battle at once. I’m not saying if injustice is there we walk past, but I am saying that we have a cause and we go after it with everything. (Ps forgive me if they’re out of order, or I missed one. Too much scrolling.)

              So yeah, email me, please, I want to learn more, because you clearly know a lot about your stances.

          • I am appalled at the bigoted commentary of Mr. Pavlovitz, but outraged at your slimy accusations addressed to Joseph Cardinal Bernardin. They’re nothing new, of course, originally spread by ultra-orthodox Roman Catholics and gleefully picked up by those fundamentalists and evangelicals who delight in their bootless efforts to undermine the One True Church (see what I did there?). That they have been discredited is of no concern to you, of course, they’re just another in the endless parade of “alternative truths” we apparently must endure for the next four years. Iesus Christus, Filius Dei vivi Pater, ora pro nobis.

          • Andrea, you are so right! This is no correlation of Pro-Life with people’s view on issues in life itself! No one can know how a baby is going to turn out. So you cannot determine which babies to “throw away and which to keep” on how they will live their life. What an absurd idea! You also do not know how and who will have compassion and care for people as they grow from birth. So this idealogy is so absurd, it must be null and void. John Palovitz, you sound completely off the grid.

            • Agree! That being said, Mary should’ve had an abortion, right? Jesus suffered far more than what the writer was portraying! My life wasn’t all peaches and cream but I’m glad my mom decided to “keep” me!

            • So it’s okay to throw out the babies you find out are not okay? I work with the disabled who have the right to a full life the same as those not handicapped. Force a mother to carry a child she cannot afford to care for properly and you will most likely end up with a grownup who is not okay. Now if all anti-abortion individuals would chip in to support these children, that would be different but I don’t see any pro-lifers volunteering to donate $$ for their upbringing.

              • You make Jon’s point. Your work is symbolic of the pro-life value; similarly for all the groups he mentioned, not just the disabled. But just because one is anti abortion it does not make you truly pro life. Why not call the movement what it is “anti abortion?” That would be more intellectually honest.

            • “which babies to “throw away and which to keep” “….. I’m still readiing and re-reading this one…trying to actually make sense of it. Would that actually even be a thing someone would do? Please say no. I think many people have missed the point thatyou indeed cannot tell what a person/infant is going to turn out to be like and therefore should value ALL people and their lives….or at least all infants and children until they are born and show they are somehow not “worthy” of being valued….if that’s a real thing. Please excuse the rambling. I really amhaving a hard time wrapping my head around some of this argument against valuing ALL life……..

          • Cardinal Bernardin (if you are going to libel someone, at least spell his name right) was not a pedophile, and his accuser recanted when his memory was shown as a sketchy result of hypnosis. In addition — Satanist? Really?

          • Amen Andrea! This article is not only Wrong but Racist!!! Oh I forgot the only People it’s ok to be racist against….White or Christians!!!!! What lies you speak.

          • I don’t know where you get your information but you are 100% wrong about Cardinal Bernadine. If you are going to claim to be pro-life you had better understand that to God all life is sacred and EVERYONE is made in the image and likeness of God. It’s not a liberal notion to care about the lives of immigrants and refugees. The laws of a nation aside, pro-life means all life.

          • Excuse me, but where is this evidence of your slander of Cardinal Bernardin? Here are a few facts about what you have so irresponsibly state: “Bernardin implemented a policy concerning priests accused of sexual misconduct with minors. He removed more than a score of priests and established a new review board, made up primarily of lay people.[3] Bernardin’s reforms concerning this issue soon served as a model for other dioceses across the nation.[5]

            Bernardin himself said in a press conference that he had been accused of sexual misconduct. Former seminarian Stephen Cook, claimed to have been abused by Bernardin and another priest in the 1970s. However, Cook subsequently dropped Bernardin from his lawsuit, being no longer certain that his memories, which had emerged while he was under hypnosis, were accurate. The two later reconciled. Cook later said that he had relied on people who told him things that were not true, “asserting that he is absolutely convinced of Bernardin’s innocence”.[6]
            Get your facts straight before you spew such garbage.

          • No. Do you believe all human life is sacred? This is a phrase I hear a lot in abortion debate groups from anti choicers and anti abortion people like you. If ALL human life is sacred or even just all “innocent” human life is sacred, you would be against the death penalty cause we KNOW innocent people have been killed and it will happen again. You’d be against denying people healthcare or making premiums outrageous so they can’t afford it. You’d be for safety nets for the poor because not being able to afford a child is one of the main reasons women abort. But honestly we all know most “pro lifers” are just anti abortion. I don’t understand why you don’t just admit that. It’s ok. You can be anti abortion. But you can’t think all human life is sacred but pick and choose what that means in reality.

          • The very fact that you use the term “pro-refugee” with such disdain, connecting it with the names of 2 you despise, Hillary & Obama, proves his point perfectly.

          • My God, you are a miserable excuse for a human being.
            “Pro life” my left butt cheek. What you are is pro-BIRTH. Once that baby takes a breath it can go to hell for all you care and knowing your theology you probably have decided that’s where it is headed anyway.
            People like you make me sick.

        • Totally wrong!! name one liberal LGBT or muslim group that has helped the world more than Christians? You will find None. Christian people help more children elderly homeless and women more than any group ever! prove me wrong! name one muslim group that aids women? one LGBT group that helps homeless? one atheist group that helps homeless? this article is more of the same. Fact is the world would never survive without Christians

          • The Ruth Ellis Center in Detroit is a good example. Ruth Ellis was an African-American woman, a lesbian, who lived to be 101. The center helps homeless LGBT youth… most of whom were thrown out of their homes by good “Christian” parents. There are such centers around the nation, almost invariably operated by LGBT.
            There are also LGBT Christians, and their good works are no less than their hetero counterparts. There’s a small Pentecostal church in Charleston, WV, almost completely LGBT, and they operate, at their own expense, a pantry for the poor and homeless, providing things that local food pantries don’t, including hygiene items.
            Or how about this: in 1983, a family relocated from a city in the southeast to Houston. The husband had been promised a job with a company there. But when the family arrived, the job offer was revoked. The family was stranded. The man had no means of even providing food for his family until he could find another job. He, his wife and children all hungry, he went in desperation to some of the churches in Houston. New to the city, he had no idea where there might be pantries to provide food. But the churches he went to wouldn’t help him. Mind you, he wasn’t asking for money. He was asking for food for his family.
            One night, he was sitting outside a rather derelict looking building in a poor neighborhood. He had been wandering most of the day, trying to find food for his family. His job searching had also turned up nothing. At that moment, people started coming out of the derelict building. He had sat down on the front porch to rest, not realizing anyone was inside. It turns out the building was being rented by a tiny group of LGBT Pentecostals for their services. They were as alarmed to see him sitting there as he was to see people coming out of this seemingly abandoned building. But they greeted him, and they couldn’t help but notice how sad he seemed. So they asked him what was wrong. He told his story, and one of the church members took him by the hand, and led him across the street to his own apartment. He proceeded to pack up bags of groceries. In fact, he almost cleaned out his own kitchen, and gave it all to that stranger in need. The man had tears in his eyes, and thanked him. None of the good heterosexual Christians he had encountered wanted to help him at all. But here, a gay Christian, obviously from a very poor church, living in a slum neighborhood, opened his heart… and his kitchen, so that man and his family could eat.
            Or how about the response to the AIDS crisis when it first began? NOBODY from the mainstream churches wanted any part of it at first. All were self-righteous, some even claiming it was God’s punishment. (Oblivious to the fact that innocent people, even children, were dying of it.) Countless thousands were dead before the president even acknowledged the existence of the disease. It was LGBT who went to work right from the start. They were the ones who raised money insisting on research. They were the ones who took the information that was known and made it available to others. They were the ones who opened up homes and hospices for those who were sick and dying, and took care of them… not just the gay ones, but ALL of them. They created the giant quilt, each square bearing the name of someone who had died, so that all who fought the disease would be remembered, the men, the women and the children. And they did all this at a time when the vast majority of churches were washing their hands of the whole thing, wanting no part of “those people.”
            Mother Teresa was one of the first to challenge that attitude. During a visit to NYC, she had been taken on a tour one of the facilities that had been set up through the original efforts of the LGBT community, a facility that cared for people dying of AIDS. She was there only as a visitor, but she immediately went to work caring for the sick and dying. Someone, some good, self-righteous, heterosexual Christian, asked her how she could bring herself to touch them. She didn’t miss a beat. She looked that person right in the eye and said, “Every one of them is Jesus, wearing a most distressing disguise.”
            My point here isn’t to deny the good some Christians have done, but to point out that as often as not, Christians have refused to do good. There are examples of Christian charities working among the poor in third world countries who refused to give food/aid to people who would not convert. When charity comes with a price tag, it isn’t worth very much.
            Do you remember the story of the Good Samaritan? Some years ago, at a Christian men’s seminar, a minister told the story. But he updated the characters so the story would be more relevant to modern listeners, and have the same impact it would have when Jesus first told it. Because, let’s face it, when we talk about Samaritans today, nobody responds with revulsion and disgust. We all think of the Good Samaritan, and miss the original impact of the story. So here is the updated version:
            A man was on his way home late one night. He was driving through a bad neighborhood when his car died. He had no cell phone, but needed to find a phone to call for help. He began to walk.
            As one might expect in such a neighborhood, he was attacked by a group of thugs. They beat him into unconsciousness and stole his wallet. They left him lying on the sidewalk, half in the gutter.
            A short time later, a church down the street let out from its midweek Bible study. The members began to disperse, heading home. This included the pastor, a vibrant preacher, much loved by his congregation. The preacher would be passing by the unconscious man on his own way home. As he saw him lying there, he shook his head in disgust, and muttered a prayer, only semi-sincere, for all the drunks in the neighborhood, and hurried on his way.
            Moments later, a couple from the church came that same way. He was a deacon in the church, and his wife was president of the church ladies’ league. They saw this man lying there, and one remarked to the other how sad it was that their neighborhood had degraded so much, and what a shame it was to see drunks and junkies passed out in the streets. The good lady was so distressed by the sight that they crossed the street to avoid coming too close.
            A short time later, a man came out of a bar down the street. It was a gay bar, and he was a homosexual. He saw the man lying there, and immediately went over to check on him. He realized from the man’s injuries what had happened. He pulled out his cell phone and dialed 9-1-1. When the ambulance arrived, this gay man, a stranger to the victim, insisted on riding in the ambulance. He stayed right with the man in the emergency room. The victim was, at that point, a “John Doe,” having no ID. So the gay man told the people there that he would act on the man’s behalf, and even accept responsibility for his treatment if it turned out he had no insurance or means of paying. He gave his own name and address and contact information to the hospital.
            The preacher, the deacon and his wife… they all had the opportunity to be a good neighbor, to help the man in need. But they wouldn’t. They assumed, incorrectly, that the man’s condition was his own fault. They should have known how to show charity and kindness to someone in need. But they didn’t. It was the gay man, on his way home after a night of drinking, who showed charity. And it’s not just a parable. Christians have no monopoly on charity.

          • Just about every faith in the world has organizations that are set up to help their people. Whether they be of the Christian, Jewish , Muslim, Hindi or Buddhist. If you do a quick google search you will find each of these religions have helping organizations. While I was researching this I also discovered even the Scientologists have this feature in their religion. While LGBT people are not a religion they too have helping organizations for their people. The reason we know more about the Christian organizations is that this country still has more people of the Christian faith than any of the others. The Christian faith has also used charity work to spread the gospel. I also must tell you that I know from personal experience that a lot of Christian churches especially in the south where I currently live won’t give people help without first proselytizing them first. There are also a lot of secular organizations around the world working to help people in need. I think we here in America need to broaden our view a bit and see that things are different in other places sometimes better sometimes worse. We should be more open to the wider world around us and what we might learn from other people.

          • You mean to say the world would not survive without *Christ*, right? Because it is not us doing these good deeds, but Jesus through us. Correct? Or is your theology completely incorrect to the point that we can disregard what you say?

          • Actually there are many atheists that do good. They donate their time and money to people in need not bec they feel there is a reward for them in heaven but because they are good people. Just because you are Christian does not make you morally superior. If anything some so called Christians are some of the most hateful people I know.

      • And THEN we will stop killing 3,000 babies every day by abortion?

        I have a sneaky feeling that even if all Christians were as good, holy, and generous as JohnP thinks HE is, that he would still vote pro-abortioin.

        • Personally, I don’t consider Trump to be securely in the Pro-Life Camp.

          But I believe Trump when he says he will appoint Supreme Court Justice in the mold of Antonin Scalia, the uncompromising Catholic Conservative.

          • Trump would appoint judges that served his own prosperity and ambitions. From the beginning of this campaign, he has done nothing to suggest he is in the least bit charitable or empathetic to anyone’s views but his own. What makes you think he would be otherwise as president?

                • Saying that Trump is not the person to be president does not mean that Clinton is. Why did you jump to that conclusion?
                  Trump is being discussed here because he is saying that he is pro-life when he is only anti-abortion.

                • ???? This is someone trying to give their sophisticated excuse for the right to kill an unborn child. I am insulted with many of the points made. Yes I am white and conservative AND believe in God who will make the final judgement.

                  • You’re pro birth, not pro life, if you don’t support social safety nets that enable women who bear children to have access to medical care, access to low-cost childcare, access to programs that promote food security, etc. Further, you’re completely unreasonable if you don’t support universal, free birth control — fewer pregnancies = fewer abortions. Keep your fire and brimstone and be smug in your belief that with all the sinners in the world there will be more room in heaven for you. While you’re doing that I, as a Christian of a different stripe, will be doing my best to fight racism, sexism, xenophobia, poverty, promote tolerance, and exhibit kindness.

                    • Sorry, but your reply consists of a false dichotomy, and the author’s posting is nothing more than an extended straw man argument.

                      To say nothing of racist.

                      That one opposes murder does not make one responsible to provide every need and desire that every human being will ever have.

                      Nor is your way of helping others pro-life. It is, in fact, quite bad for them. It certainly is not a way to provide charity. One can oppose government programs precisely because they are bad for people, while being quite passionate about private charity.

                      But, most obvious, an adult human being is not a baby.

                  • You say you believe in God who will make the final judgement, but aren’t you taking it upon yourself to judge those who choose abortion?

                  • If “pro-life” people demonstrated even a tiny bit of empathy for post-birth humans, they might have more credibility. John put voice so beautifully to what I’ve always believed about so many of these people. Sorry, but many are hateful hypocrites.

                  • But don’t believe in funding for the kids here….

                    Yeah okay….

                    it never fails to baffle me how people complain about aborted babies but vote for politicians who cut funding and access to medical care…which helps to prevent abortions.
                    There are over a million children considered homeless-far more than aborted babies.
                    Why don’t we want to pay the funds to take care of this life?

                • They and their Foundation help with illness, homelessness, food supply, and education all over the world. Donald Trump seeks revenge on people.

                • This was not about the Clinton’s. It’s about actually and fully recognizing what one says he/she believes in within the reality of the (very) larger scheme of life.
                  Sadly, far too many pro- lifers have dirty little secrets, still pass judgement and all the while will never understand the depth of this piece.

                • No the Clintons were not the answer either. What I am most disgusted by is the fact that in this campaign Christians did care enough to put someone up there worthy of standing behind. Instead they got behind a vile candidate and excused, defended and deflected his bad behavior or at least silently stood by while this was going on. How on Earth are we ever going to reach those in the world if they believe we act and therefore are just like them?

                • @Anonymous, where did you see anyone claiming the Clintons were an answer to anything? This article shines a bright light on the idea that ALL life is sacred & valuable, even if said life votes differently than you do.

              • What is Hillary good for ? Abortion up to 9 months ? That’s evil. And if your mother’s had aborted you, you would have missed out on life …… The gift of life….. .. why don’t you come up with solutions on how to prevent pregnancies to begin with … I bet none of you believe in God or the after life . Nor the Illuminati and their secret societies that want to depopulate the world …. New world order ….. Wake up.

                • Clinton was not always the alternative – there where Republican candidates also running who held these beliefs (more authentically IMO) who would have been a better voice, a better leader and, ultimately, a better President. But at the end of the day, people voted for Trump – and that is a sad state of affairs.

                • @Caroline, I am a follower of Christ & believe in a Triune God as well as eternal life. I think you are missing something, maybe take a moment, breathe, pray, and then reread with an open mind. No reason to be combative.

              • Yup the 1000s of jobs he has already kept in america and many other things he is already doing is just bullshit. We need someone that is just going to give us money and tell us how to live.


            • Welcome to your first election. Every president does the same thing, and the earth still spins on it’s axis, you’ll get used to it.

            • Trump is only more than willing to do or, say anything but, ONLY so long as it will increase his bottom line.

              He is morally corrupt.

          • Pro life catholics must truly love to see all of those
            Babies born in Africa where abortion is illegal and the Catholic Church is predominant in its message there on that continent and later on watch them all starve to death. If that is what you call the uncompromising Catholic faith then it should be damned to Hell

              • With the difference that abortion overwhelmingly takes place in the first 3 months. Awareness, they are now saying, only starts after week 29. Fetuses don’t know they’re alive, they don’t know they’re dying, they don’t feel a thing. Children on the other hand do. Children who are starving know they are starving. Bad comparison.

                • I believe when you pay you taxes. Do you want to paid for abortion are feed the babies.we should also make women award that when you choose to lay down with a man what could happen there is free birth control.

                • You say awareness only takes place after week 29, funny my twins were born at 27 weeks and they were fully aware of everything that was going on. Don’t know where you got your facts.

            • Thank you –you’ve got to the abortion issue’s beating heart and soul. It is not and never was “women’s rights.” It is eugenics. It is ridding ourselves of socially, financially, and emotionally burdensome people: those nasty little results of our preoccupation with sexual intercourse, whom nobody wants and nobody loves, and for whose welfare nobody–least of all their parents–wants to pay.

              Abortion is necessary because our society, for all its purported concern about women, has no use for a woman who cannot promise sex without burdening us with her children, nor has it any use for men who don’t trip all over themselves, genitals in hand, at her heated, beckoning call. Comedian George Carlin put it succinctly many years ago: “Nobody wants to f*** women who don’t believe in abortion,” and in our society, women whom “nobody wants to f***” are downright unpatriotic: bad for the economy and politically useless.

              Sex sells, everybody’s buying, and the unborn children thereby created are a damned nuisance . . . and THAT is why abortion is so important. We have our Kermit Gosnells, our poisonous pills, our steely knives, our drills, and our vacuums; we have our sex, our economy, and our politics. We can live with that.

              As for Mr. Pavlovitz: he has provided a proud, unabashed, utterly sanctimonious list of reasons why white, pro-life Christians’ condemnations are wrong and his own condemnations (of white, pro-life Christians) are right.

              To borrow from English metaphysical poet John Donne: “Never send to know for whom the bell tolls,” Mr. Pavlovitz. “It tolls for thee.”

              • Well spoken, this “modern” society’s version of the ancient practice of infant sacrifice, eliminating the unwanted results of ritual sexual intercourse in fertility cults.

              • Because a woman HERSELF can’t decide if she wants to have a child and if she doesn’t want to have a child. She doesn’t need you (and legislators) to do it for her.

                SO sorry!

                What Christianists like to frame as a social issue is between a woman and her doctor. It’s what the Framers of the Constitution called “security” and enshrined in the 4th amendment to the Constitution (“privacy” was a word reserved for performing restroom activities, the Framers wouldn’t have used it, the English language has shifted since the 1700s).

                Thanks much. When you have a uterus, you get an opinion. Until then STFU.

                • When it’s just your uterus that we are talking about Dejah, you’re free to do whatever you want with it. But with regard to the contents of that uterus, “Keep your hands off my body.”

                  • Again, as long as all she is messing I her own body that’s fine. When she tells me to take my hands off her body I certainly understand. I hope you and she will also understand that we she goes beyond her own body I’m going to speak up for the child and remind her to likewise keep her hands off of her/him.

                • I uterus is worthless without fertilizer as in sperm, which is property of Men, which are co-owners of children. Equality right? That’s what you want, And Child support, Spousal support, Freedom to live, love, practice and existing without persecution, what about a man’s right to the same- seems to me the biggest victims of bigotry and racism are the middle class or lower white males. What happen to our voice? Our feelings of depravity? Null in void right? If our way of life doesn’t matter to yours, than your worse than the arguments you present. True hypocrisy on display so go ahead an STFU, everyone is tired of your whiny BS.

                  • Do you know any woman in a committed relationship that has had an abortion? No? Me neither. I have known women who were in abusive relationships, who’s significant others threatened to “get rid of it himself if she didn’t”. You’d better stay in your bubble, it’s a harsh out here in the real world. The truth is that NO ONE EVER WANTS TO HAVE AN ABORTION! It is the unfortunate result of horrible circumstances in most cases. Keep your judgement to yourself. Celebrate the fact that you won’t ever have to make the choice of terminating a pregnancy or die carrying to full term.

                • I have a uterus and the second a child is conceived it has it’s own life. It is not MY life . I am the guardian of that life. It is not my place to choose if that life survives. My choices ended when I had unprotected sex and conceived. That is just how nature works.

              • Well said. It is a sad commentary when we can’t distinguish right from wrong. One argues choice the other argues life. Mr. Pavlovitz, I am sure you are glad your mom didn’t abort you. That way you can throw your insults and opinions of what us white conservative Christians think. A little extreme, don’t you think.

                • I wonder what he personally DOES to help all these groups in his list. Everybody goes through stuggles in this life. I wonder how many white conservative Christians he really knows personally.

                • Thank you! I’m sorry, I am pro life and a Christian, however I don’t rejoice when a black man gets gunned down as the author suggests. Nor do I think the sexually assaulted could have prevented their situation if they would have dressed less provocatively and deserved it in some way or feel like LGTBQ community/persons should be condemned….I couldn’t even believe that supporting life would lump you into categories such as what he described – and of course only if you are white, conservative Christians. This is why I dislike politics so much – it brings the worst out in people.

              • I see that you completely miss his point. Here it is. If all that you care about is preventing abortions and do not really concern yourself with what happens after they are born, then you are anti-abortion, not pro-life. He says it is ok to be anti-abortion but wants you to stop lying and say you are pro-life when you do nothing to actually prove you are anything but anti-abortion
                That is it.
                Go ahead and be anti-abortion but if you have no care about what happens past birth, then you cannot truly be pro-life.

                • To say we stop caring about people once they are born is a statement so broad as to be meaningless. It completely dismisses the efforts of hundreds of thousands of people to relieve suffering of all kinds on this earth. The heart that breaks when a child is aborted breaks again and again when others suffer. You dare to judge the human heart?

                  • Well said, Patricia. I’m an adoption counselor and I bet there are enough conservative Christian folks out there to adopt every one of these “pro-birth, not life” babies.

                    • If that were true, there would not be any children available to adopt right now. Sadly there are so so many waiting……….

                  • If that’s not what you believe, he’s not talking about you. But you know people like this. We all do. They complain about welfare, medicare, and other programs that help the poor.

                    It’s easy to get defensive, but honestly, if you don’t believe the things he described, I’ll say it again, HE’S NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU.

                • There clearly is no middle ground for John Pavlovitz. It’s a pretty black and white issue to him. He writes he is “for life” and is a white pastor. So is he lumping himself into this stereotype as well? If not, his middle name must be Mother Theresa.

            • I’m not catholic but your response is sick, absolutely sick. to kill children because the economy is bad, because of starvation issues? you are absolutely twisted. The problem is the government there, the corruption and many other things. you educate the people and promote contraception but you don’t kill children as the interim fix..you sick human

            • Sorry, person to person , Church to church, progressive seculars to Christian …the Catholic Church and many more Christian and non Christian denominations of faith God believers who are pro life and anti abortion … do more for the poor and marginalized , and indigent than any secular, not God centered organization of people….do your homework and add it all up…and then think about it. You are forced fed media controlled…there are more seculars that have killed in the name of their righteousness even excluding babies than all the Christian initiated misjudgments from the beginning of time…but you would not know that unless you really did your homework…We do it very well thank you to the point if you live in the USA we are saving the US Government and people MULTI BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN TAXES…check it out….do not just regurgitate!

        • I agree. There may be a very small percentage of Christians that actually act the way he describes. He uses that rare exception to prop up his weak arguments. He seems to think that the removal of money from our accounts by government force (with those “evil guns”) is compassion. Forced to give to extremely wasteful government is not compassion. Its a convenient way OUT of giving your own time and money to others.

          No, Christians and others, that VOLUNTARILY donate billions of dollars and hours to charity is compassion. They give to all races and religions.

          • Perfect!!!
            Jesus wouldn’t have been a socialist for this reason.
            He wants us to WOLLINGLY CHOOSE to give. Which I have no problem doing so

            • “He wants us to WOLLINGLY CHOOSE to give.” Then why does the Catholic Church expect you to tithe 10% of your annual salary to them? Yet the Church pays no taxes like the rest of us, so they get our money and pay nothing on theirs.

              • I am not Catholic, but still am in possession of the very common knowledge that tithing is voluntary. Not only that, being Catholic is voluntary. So, the original statement of God desiring us to willingly give is true. Your statement that they “get” our money, implying compulsion, is not true. And why the weird animosity about churches not paying taxes? Are leftists similarly hostile towards their nonprofit organizations not paying taxes?

          • I could not have said it better. A lopsided perception of Christianity is as bigoted as it gets, and does not represent the core of the gospel, which is transformed lives helping to transform others lives. Extremists do not define any religion.

          • Individuals nor the church have ever, in the history of humanity, given enough to even begin to keep up with the need in this world. It is you who is using excuses.

          • AJ… yes, I agree with you… as if those who are “pro-life” are not also pro-life for all humans … it seems John and others here totally misunderstanding the pro-life stance of those of all religions, not only Catholic’s … as if being “anti-abortion were their only stance on lives they want to help….
            very biased article…

            • Not biased very true. I have seen it with my family. The same people who are anti-abortion are pro death penalty, pro war, the police can do no wrong, want to end public education, provide healthcare for only those who can afford it and even were against providing condums to people in Africa for the prevention of aides spread because they thought it was promoting sex without marriage. It is true!!!!

              • Yes this!^^can’t be anymore straight forward! The bottom of the bottom line is that if men could have babies…abortion would have never been an issue.

              • Barney, you may have seen it in your family, but it simply isn’t true that the portrait painted here is representative of all those who are pro-life. Indeed, I suggest that it isn’t even the majority view. I find that most people who are pro-life are quietly engaged in all sorts of ministry that involve them working to preserve AND make life better for all persons. Not just for the unborn, but for every stage of life after birth as well. I suppose because they go about this work more quietly than those who get their faces and loud protests broadcast on the evening new you may not have noticed them. But they are there. And they are NOT just anti-abortion, they are indeed for life across the board. John Pavlovitz may have turned a blind eye to the reality of their existence, don’t make the mistake of blinding yourself to the truth of their presence as well.

                • I totally agree with you. As I read over these posts, I felt quite sad that so many individuals generalize Christians similarly to this author. I’m sorry for the hypocrisy that some of the persons experienced first hand, but I believe it is the minority, not the majority. Please know that no Christian is perfect. We are in the loooong unobtainable process of trying to become Christ-like and show the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,…) to others around us, but we will fail time and time again. Thankful that God is a forgiving God, and we can get right back up, and try to demonstrate His Love in our words, thoughts, and actions. I’ve voluntarily given of my time and resources to help the oppressed (economically disadvantaged, Deaf people,…) in this country and throughout the world, not for praise, but in hope to show Christ’s love tangibly to others. And, I know that innumerable Christians do the same. So, please, people, don’t be too quick to categorize all Christians so negatively and narrow-minded as this author appeared to do.

              • I have yet to meet someone who is “pro war.” This aside, though perhaps you have had very narrow experiences with people who purport to be Christians and yet conduct themselves without regard to the Gospel, this does not excuse your biased attacks on “religion.” This article is one of the most inflammatory and hateful I have read about this subject. Though there are undoubtedly many people who say they believe one thing but do another (BOTH presidential candidates come to mind), the vast majority of Christians whom I know well are pro life because they really do believe in the sanctity of all human life. They donate their time and money to charities, go on mission trips, pray with and talk to the homeless, work in clinics for low-income people, value individual liberty to property and life, and are pro-school-choice. The author of this article makes many false assumptions about the nature of the pro-life voter, despite a lack of evidence for his claims. Please do not give this blogger any more of your time but instead do some real research into the pro-life debate and obstetric science to learn the truth. As a nurse I have seen a “fetus” developing, and as a woman I have lost a child before birth. To shut down the pro-life argument before researching the truth is to endanger the health and welfare of thousands of uneducated women and their unborn children who have been irreparably damaged by ignorant and self-seeking pro-choice campaigns. (If you do not believe my latter statement please research the history of Planned Parenthood. You can find actual video footage of the founder, Margaret Sanger, espousing her support for racial cleansing.) The problem with having a debate about abortion is that neither side usually understands the main issue or the truth. Abortion is not about choice. It’s about the definition of life. It is possibly one of the most important issues we face today and has historically been at the forefront of many ethical dilemmas. But regardless of which side of the fence you lean on, you should stop reading garbage like this and read the history of the abortion movement. We will never get anywhere in this debate if those making the decisions in this country don’t even understand the premise of the arguments.

                • Yes, some percentage of people who would vote based on a single issue probably do fulfill all the criteria the author lists as indicators for being truly “pro-life” versus “anti-abortion”. Actually , it’s your comment that sounds biased. And debating abortion isn’t about when life starts, it is about a woman’s right and sole discretion to make decisions about whether or not to bear a child, to have a choice.

                  • My belief is that sex produces babies.. If a woman – or man is not able to accept the responsibility of that possibly then they had better make sure that a pregnancy does not happen instead of using abortion for birth control.

          • The judgmental attitudes are EXTREMELY common. And often used as reason NOT to give anything to ” those people” , publicly or privately. Public funding is how we collectively provide. The wealthy more often donate to status charities, rather than things that help other humans.

          • ah, it’s just politics then, is it?

            cause when that’s all it is, then there really is no argument about anything. you choose your issue, i choose mine, and then we scream at each other and everyone else and then vote.

            don’t like the outcome, move to latin america where the anti-abortion laws work in your favor.

          • But you conservatives who don’t like government meddling in your financial affairs, you are the ones who say let the churches and the private orgs take care of people so your personal taxes do not have to…the problem as I see it is that there are not enough givers inside or outside the church to take care of the masses in living in poverty…poverty will remain as long as your greed is your priority…government is not the enemy! It takes on the work you don’t value enough to do, so the enemy as I see it is unbridled greed…like Timothy says in I Tim 6, love of money is the root of all kinds of evil….it’s all about your own pocketbooks with Republicans….that’s it, plain and simple…just like trump

        • The ‘Christians’ John describes here are not pro-life. You are pro-birth. Imagine how you might regard Jesus if he were born today the illegitimate son of a Jewish woman. Would you provide food and shelter, medicine, education, and job opportunities? Or like so many ‘Christians’ today, would you blame Mary for getting pregnant and consign her to a life of poverty for herself and her family so that you and yours could live a ‘comfortable’ life that you deserve because you ‘earned it’?

          • Jesus was not an accident. God had a plan and a purpose. Mary was not an unwed mother. Her husband may not have been biological but the Lord made it clear to him who the child was.

          • I’m so confused right now – I’m pro life and homosexual. I am very accepting of all races and religions. Why is someone automatically a racist homophobe if they are pro-life? My belief is that we are all created equally and I do not discriminate on any basis. Isn’t one of your complaints about conservatives that they are intolerant and if one is, they all must be? I know many pro-lifers who are very accepting of other people. By lumping all pro-lifers into one type, you’re acting like the very people you condemn.

        • Can you not read? He is not pro-abortion and can’t imagine anyone who could be. This is about what it truly means to be “pro life” rather than just “pro birth”.

        • No one is “pro abortion”. You are simply either pro-woman’s bodily autonomy or you aren’t. No matter what you think about a fetus and what constitutes life, in the US we have laws that prevent a person’s body from being used against their will. Just like I can’t force you to donate me a kidney even if I die without it, you can’t force a woman to donate her entire body to a pregnancy even if a fetus dies without it.

          • Justify it however you may, but the VAST majority of abortions in America are not done on women whose health is at risk… the fair number is around 90% and above [of abortions] that are chosen out of convenience. I’d imagine you fall within the camp that defines a fetus as a “cluster of cells.” If so, I’d suggest you avert your eyes away from the tool-table in abortion operating rooms where the body parts are placed after being dismembered and vacuumed or pulled out so as to protect your comfortable “cluster of cells” definition of non-life.

            • Poverty is a health risk. Stress is a health risk. Over-population is a health risk. Loss of environment is a health risk. If we do not practice birth control and medically safe abortion practices we kill someone whose life is already in progress. Those body parts you speak of, never knew the reviling of their worth, through your expression of ‘love’ and forced existence. It’s transference, plain and simple. Jesus would ask you about the stone in your hand, the mote in your eye that blinds you to need. I imagine you campaign all day with a blacker heart than the ones you condemn in the name of God. Men faint at the sight of blood and women never do because women must bear wounds only Jesus would understand.

              • What incoherent sentences are you spewing? Fact: number one reason why abortions are given: gender of the “fetus” is a girl. So much for women’s rights!

              • ‘If we do not practice birth control and medically safe abortion practices we kill someone whose life is already in progress.”

                The ethical standard you are using would permit us to euthanize a seriously ill child.

                “Those body parts you speak of, never knew the reviling of their worth,”

                This would be true of a one-year-old.

                “It’s transference, plain and simple.”

                In a sense, I suppose, though I think you mean projection. Either way, that does not speak to the efficacy of the pro-life argument.

                “Jesus would ask you about the stone in your hand, the mote in your eye that blinds you to need.”

                This only works because you assert a fetus isn’t a living human being. Pro-lifers do not grant the premise.

                “I imagine you campaign all day with a blacker heart than the ones you condemn in the name of God.”

                What you imagine is not germane to the argument. I could imagine you are a three-headed unicorn. Even if you are, it has no bearing on the argument.

                “Men faint at the sight of blood and women never do”

                This has been studied at some length, and is inaccurate.

                “because women must bear wounds only Jesus would understand.”

                Actually, the prevailing theory is that it was helpful to natural selection. People who passed out were assumed to be dead during massacres, and fainting lowers blood pressure, thus slowing blood letting on the part of an injured party.

                There are no data correlating Christ’s suffering to the propensity to faint in any circumstance.

            • I doubt there are many women that get an abortion simply for “convenience”. Walk a mile in her shoes before you judge. Spend an hour in her head and feel the anguish she must feel, when making such a horrible decision, most likely, alone.
              It is easy to point fingers and judge. Have you ever, even once, listened to her story?

              • Unfortunately there are many heartless women out there that feel very little anguish when making that choice. The picture you paint is what those with hearts would hope it’s like but there is a whole world out there of people who are cold and insensitive. Maybe it is because of the way they were treated growing up or mental issues but a lot just find it a means to an end so they don’t have to deal with the long term challenges.

              • Actually, PHopper, I WAS one of these women. I found myself single, pregnant and scared during college and contemplated my choices. Because I knew the facts about fetal development and the seedy history of abortion, I knew that I was no longer my own person but two people, that the life growing in my womb was human, not alien or some strange clump of cells, and that he or she had the same rights to which I am entitled and that I had to protect those right, and that abortion even when done safely is a risky surgical procedure that is very painful and can lead to infection and even death. Knowing all of these facts prevented me from seeking an abortion. Ultimately, the choice was made for me, and I lost the child, but I will never forget the moment when I knew inherently that I was no longer alone in my body and that there was a human life growing inside me.

            • If the abortion is voluntary, it is done within the first trimester and with pils. The only time they use “tools and vacuums” is in last term abortions when medically neccesary to save the mothers life. Do some actual research besides non medical propoganda.

          • In cases of abortion, the “fetus” doesn’t die without the woman’s body–it is KILLED. If “we have laws that prevent a person’s body from being used against their will”, shouldn’t those laws also apply to the person in the womb? It isn’t just a fetus; it is a living person that is there (in most cases) because of a choice the woman made. The pregnancy is a consequence of that choice to have sex.

            • “A choice the woman made”… The man has no responsibility at all for helping to create that life? Choosing to have sex with a woman that he does not plan to have a relationship with and knowing he may create a life that he will not be around to be responsible for. But he shares no blame. The burden and the blame falls on the woman alone. How many of these women go the the father and say “I am pregnant” only to have them walk away and leave them to figure it all out on their own and bare the burden alone. You all talk of cold, heartless, woman that just don’t want to be inconvenienced by a child.. no talk of the cold heartless father that washes his hands of his responsibility. If you believe these woman are cold and heartless .. what kind of mothers do you think the will be?.. what will that child suffer throughout their young life?

          • “No matter what you think about a fetus and what constitutes life, in the US we have laws that prevent a person’s body from being used against their will.”

            No we don’t. If you have a kid, you either feed it or you go to prison.

            “Just like I can’t force you to donate me a kidney even if I die without it,”

            But you must pay to take care of a kid.

            Whether or not the fetus is a human life is the only relevant question, given your logic.

            “you can’t force a woman to donate her entire body to a pregnancy even if a fetus dies without it.”

            Except abortion is an act of force, hence the tension you either haven’t bothered to consider, or would rather not exist.

          • You say you believe in God who will make the final judgement, but aren’t you taking it upon yourself to judge those who choose abortion?

        • This guy that has written this article has a agenda and it has to do with probably his homosexual lifestyle you notice that he puts a black women with her child as his poster photo to attract the attention of his readers and draw out compassion from them the sad true is about 40% of all black pregnancies are aborted in this country each year most through agencies such as planned parenthood his goal and the goal of all that think like he does is to educate our children that his perverted lifestyle is normal and should be embraced by our society he is a deceiver and liar

          • Brian, you are ignorant. Wait, I must use ‘I’ language…I perceive that this article speaking the TRUTH was written with people like yourself in mind.-people with no understanding, compassion, love, or respect for anyone but themselves and their own kind. The LE AST we can do during our time on this earth is treat people with love and respect.

          • I agree this guy does have a agenda and no one is seeing that, they are just going back and forth about pro-life and pro-choice. He is slamming Christians and I for one am offended, I cherish all life not just the unborn. He says we don’t care about the poor, homeless, people of color, inner city children living in poverty. He is judging me and he doesn’t know a thing about me. I grew up very poor in a broken home, raised by a single parent who worked 2 jobs with no child support and with minimal public
            assistance. My father was never in my life but what I am told I am 1/4 Native American , even though most people would assume I am white. Let’s see I am not homeless and never have been and I am heterosexual and am married and have been with my husband for almost 39 years. I believe in love and I know so does Jesus, but I know even the Bible would tell you Jesus would love the Sinner and not the Sin and tell the Sinners including myself to repent of your Sin and go forth and Sin no more.

        • Actually about half that number are performed, and a percentage of those are performed because the fetus is dead, not viable, or pregnancy puts the life of the mother at risk.

          • Tiny fraction of abortions due to death of child or life of mother. It’s always thrown out there to cover for the inconvenient truth of the matter.

        • I maintain that nobody is “pro-abortion.” Some people just think it is nobody else’s business. In addition, there was abortion before it was legal; safe for the wealthy and dangerous for the not wealthy. It would be that way again. When a girl or woman dies at the hands of a back-alley abortionist, someone loses a mother, a sister, a daughter….

        • Most of us do care about those things as well. Just to pick one out of the list: I don’t care what the LGBT community does. I hope they live well. I do care that they try so venomously to force us all to cater to them. If they wanted to live and let live, that would be great, but they don’t. I believe all life matters and care about people in every walk of life. Nice of him to think he knows how everyone thinks. Hard to find any respect for his opinion when he thinks he is so much better than the rest of us.

        • When poverty is reduced, abortions go down. When a woman cannot feed the children she has, she is more likely to have an abortion if she becomes pregnant. When working one job at minimum wage can actually support a family, a woman can welcome a pregnancy, instead of fearing one. When covered by health insurance, pregnancy won’t bankrupt a family, and can be welcomed instead of feared. When taught in school how pregnancy happens, and how to prevent it, and when Planned Parenthood is around to provide free contraception, women can make conscious choices about when to become pregnant. When there is no more rape or incest, women will no longer need to end the resulting pregnancies. Until all of these (and more) are true, women still need to be able to choose to end a pregnancy.

        • I see those 3000 abortions as 3000 women who weren’t obligated to gestate on demand, for someone else’s convenience. Because no woman, anywhere on earth, OWES anyone else a child.

          • Interesting concept. No one owes anyone, hmmm… So, I suppose you stand opposed to mandated reporter laws as well, …right?
            I mean these laws are obliging a free person to speak out and inform authorities, regardless of what possible risk might accrue to themselves. Often times mandated reporters are at personal risk if they report against someone that has power. If it’s their employer or an important customer/client they could face loss of employment or financial consequences. If the issue goes to trial, they would likely suffer disruption of their own plans, emotional distress, and general inconvenience. There is also the embarrassment the mandated reporter faces if people begin to perceive them as nosey busybodies or rats. And yet the law requires mandated reporters to render such service for the sake of a child who is in physical danger of abuse or possible loss of life. If mandated reporters fail to act in accordance with the law, they are liable to be charged with felony crimes and possibly imprisoned. Interestingly, these sited risks that a mandated reporter faces are often the VERY SAME ones sited by those that choose to abort children as their reason for choosing such.
            See, the mandated reporter laws suggest that in a society, we often DO OWE others, especially those that cannot speak-up for or protect themselves, a certain level of support. Some of us suppose that a Mother likely does ‘owe’ her child those things only her body can possibly provide. Similarly, because that child CANNOT speak-up for or protect itself, some of us white conservative Christians (aka – deplorables) often are obliged to give these innocent persons the use of our voices.

        • There would be no need for abortion. Education beyond don’t do it and free b c eliminates the need for abortion.
          Showing life is sacred eliminates abortion.

          His point is that we are pro baby. You cited 3000 aborted.
          We have millions of children considered homeless here and far more who commit suicide.
          How is life sacred when we show daily it’s not?

        • We will never stop killing some of those babies. It’s a fact of life. However, the last few decades have shown us that many, many fewer of them will be killed if their parents have access to reliable birth control, if their mothers are not faced with such desperate living situations that force them to choose between their current children and the one to come, if their parents themselves have the chance to make better choices in life and the education to support those choices.

        • I’m pro you keeping your ignorant nose out of my personal health care decisions & I don’t regret having mine, not for one minute

        • I agree. It sure seems like he is projecting his own vile bigotry onto all “white, conservative Christians” instead of owning it as his.

        • If you were truly voting to reduce abortions than you would want democratic leadership because history has proven that the numbers of abortions decrease under democratic leadership and increase under republican leadership.

        • I haven’t read every comment (there are SO many), but I haven’t seen anyone say you have to vote pro-abortion. You do – if you claim to be a Christian – have to demand all leaders care for the poor. They can be anti-abortion but they must ALSO consistently vote for / support policies such as universal healthcare, quality eduction, and a livable minimum wage. Christians have an absolute moral obligation to demand Trump AND all other elected officials vote to support ALL citizens.

        • Look inside instead of seeking to quantify your narrow view. Why is there always an excuse and an insult instead of a word on why so many only care about a fetus and not a life being lived?

        • I have a sneaky suspicion that if all abortions were to end tommorow you would be greatly disappointed because you would no longer have your “moral” trump card you can use to disguise the rest of your sociopathic policy values.

        • Forget the semantics. I just hate the fact that millions of little people are being murdered before they even have a chance of a life.

      • I am a white conservative Catholic and although I agree abortion appears to be where our concern for life begins and ends due to how we appear in the media it simply is not true. We are apposed to war and the death penalty. Pray and work for world peace. We visit the sick and Infirmed and imprisoned in staggering numbers. We feed the hungry,house the homeless, and work for human rights internationally and nationally .Catholics believe in and support gun reform and value the dignity of all human life. Although we do not condone gay marriage nor sex outside of marriage we abhor sexual violence and discrimination. To those who would say look at all the evil the church has done I would respond the church is made of humans we can all be sinners and all are but on the issue of being pro life I believe my churches message is consistent

    • This article is so insulting and divisive on every level. I do not fit into his box of stereotypes, and I doubt if most pro-life people do either. I work at a homeless shelter. I worked at a Crisis Pregnancy center for years, which included caring for mom and baby afterward. My kids are adoping a baby which will most likely be from another “race”, and I can’t wait to be his/her grandma! I love everyone regardless of skin color. I’ve been on Mission trips to Haiti, Ecuador (poorest of the poor). I love homosexual people (although I believe practicing it is a sin, but not any worse than any other sex outside of biblical marriage, and I believe God has a beautiful plan for them, just as he does for anyone who will confess and repent, as I have had to do.) I really think I am closer to your typical pro-life person, than your made-up pro-life straw man.

      • Then clearly, Suzanne, this article doesn’t apply to you. If you are all these things then you actually align with John – which I think is a wonderful thing. This isn’t a pro-life straw man – this is a calling to those who are pro-life in solely one aspect and an encouragement for us to do better and reach beyond the lives of the unborn and into the lives of the fully grown. There is no need for such voraciousness! You’re one of the good ones.

        • It amazes me how Suzanne’s kind of response always pops up when religious folks are criticized. If it doesn’t apply to you (the general “you”), then it doesn’t apply to you! Good grief. How about instead of getting furious and insulted as a knee-jerk response, we take the time to examine ourselves a bit to see if there is something we can still glean from this blog post, and recognize that even if it doesn’t describe us, it certainly DOES describe a whole lot of folks. We know because we see it in action–it’s glaringly obvious, everywhere we look.

          • I appreciate what is intended in this post, but I’m not a fan of using the universal “you” when the only initial description of that “you” is someone who feels like they are voting for Trump because of an anti-abortion stance. It’s dangerous and unnecessary and even lazy to use a universal “you” in this way. And it incorrectly lumps the person who is considering Trump based on the abortion issue with a bunch of other “anti-life” beliefs and behaviors that that same person simply might not hold.

            Broad brushes, especially these days, isn’t helpful. Like assuming all cops are bad. Or every kid with dreadlocks is a thug or any other stereotype.

            • Perhaps you misunderstood. I clarified my use of “you” to explain that I wasn’t using the second person singular pronoun referring specifically to @A Friend!, but to those readers whom I went on to describe. Reading comprehension helps.

              By the way, how many people do you know who think in terms of “ALL people who do ____ ARE ALL ____”? I think everyone knows that there are exceptions to pretty much every rule, and I think it’s silly for people to have to issue a disclaimer on everything they say to make sure no one thinks that they think that what they say is true 100% of the time. It’s just silly.

              • I was referring to the use of “you” in the post. And while I agree we can all edit ourselves out if the “you” doesn’t apply to us, it’s still not a good way to refer to people. Who doesn’t bristle when someone lumps everybody in with an errant “you people should know better!” Often, this has been one way that racism has subtly perpetuated itself.

                Maybe I should have put my comment under the post in general. Like I said, I get it. I understand the intent. But I just think it’s sloppy and the same point could be articulated a little more surgically vs the second person plural “you” with no clarity past “folks who vote for Trump based on pro-life stance”.

                • I guess I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t really agree. I think it’s fairly obvious who John is addressing: those who are conservative white Christians who claim to be pro-life and are voting for Trump for only that reason but don’t really care about the other things listed in the blog.

                  • Then. they should not be defined by the word or description of Christian. How this author is describing a Christian does not define me. I am a follower of Christ and his ways, and I try to do that the best way I am able, but none of us are perfect, we are only human.

                    • It does describe the overwelming majority of conservative Christians and 100% of those who voted for Trump.

                  • It is a free country afterall, (at least still), where I am free to decide what issues are the most important. For example, the most important issue to me may be exactly abortion, and I do not connect all the other issues with it as John hopes we think he was clever enough to do. Who siad he is the end all on what pro-life means? I certainly did not give him my permission to define it for me. Perhaps John would do better to call sin what it is, instead of calling it “no big deal” on his church’s web site.

                    • If you don’t approve of abortion, you (Yes, YOU) are exquisitely free to never , ever, ever, ever, EVER, have one.
                      You are not, however, free to interfere in the lives of women, who make LEGAL decisions concerning our sex lives and pregnancies.
                      Abortion is self-defense.
                      And no woman, anywhere on Earth owes you or anyone else a child.

                  • So that begs the question: What about conservative black, or Asians, or Hispanic, or Native American, etc. Christians who claim to be pro-life and are voting for Trump for only that reason? Why does this post only apply to “white conservative Christians”?

                    • i think you make a good point. I agree with the article, but it could have just been titled: “Conservatives who are voting for Trump because of his stance on abortion. ..” and still made its point pretty clearly.
                      However, I do think that the idea to ban abortion is mainly a christian/religious one, and I don’t think there are that many hispanic/black/brown people voting
                      for Trump…..

            • The width of the brush was pretty clearly defined. If one voted for Donald on the single issue of abortion, ignoring all the other human rights abuses he enthusiastically supports, that brush is just wide enough to cover that choice.

          • As the title states white, conservative, Christian! It is labeling ; stating all white conservative Christians will behave this way! A little difficult not to get offended when you can identify with all those groups! Stop labeling people! That is part of the problem! How about don’t attack a specific group of people when you write an article! How about a title like pro-life is not just anti-abortion. I agree with Suzanne Williams.

            • No, you might want to pay closer attention. Try to think about it this way, as a conditional argument:

              John is saying that IF you are conservative, Christian, and pro-life, AND these other things describe you, THEN this, that, and so forth.

              He is not saying that ALL conservative Christian pro-lifers ARE this, that, and so forth.

          • Because the writer of the article is stereotyping all Christians as unloving racist bigots and this Christian for one is getting so sick of it. I care about ALL PEOPLE, all life and John is causing more hate and more division with this article. He also has “love “for EVERYONE except Christians like the ones he describes (where is his uplifting comments for them since he had then for every other walk of life). He could have approached it better. Instead of attacking one group he could have simply talked about his strong belief which happen to totally agree with. I honestly don’t think he does.

          • It’s hard not to be offended with a title “To my WHITE, CHRISTIAN, CONSERVATIVE friends.” As if all white, Christian, conservatives people act or believe these ludacrious accusations. If it doesn’t apply to US maybe we should change the terminology to address WHO he is actually speaking of????

          • The issue is you are trying to lump many into one box, and when someone objects you act like they are the exception. I am a Christian whit male, and I too don’t fit into your stereotype. As a matter of fact, none of those I volunteer with, none of those at my church, not a single white Christian I know firs this perceived stereotype. If anything, what I have noticed is that my liberal non-Christian friends love to write and talk about their amazing compassion, but when it comes time to actually spend the time, to get dirty trying to help others, they are too busy. Thank you for writing about this, for talking a big talk, it my experience is that all those typing ‘amen’ are talking big, but won’t be seen or heard from where the rubber meets the road. Talking does not cut it, it takes more than that, and without those white Christians you all love so much to hate so much, many of our least fortunate would have no hope. Those of us in the trenches will continue to do the work while you all pat yourselves on the back and feel so good about yourselves.

        • Unfortunately it comes across as a general slam of everyone claiming to be pro-life. A fine tuned labeling of everyone white who believes life begins at conception. She has already made up her mind.
          I would have to agree with Suzanne

        • I don’t fully agree with this either and I was insulted also. Minority woman have a higher chance of terminating their pregnancy than none minority and I know more Caucasian who are fighting for the stop of abortions and all other forms of end of life situations that don’t happen normally. All of these pro life people I know also help with charities and in the church. So please stop categorizing all pro life people in such a judgmental way. You are just as bad as the people you describe.

          • Minority women have a higher chance of terminating their pregnancy only if you consider it by percentage of the population. The majority of women who get abortions are white.
            The REAL factor in abortion is not race- it’s poverty and education. Deal with poverty and education properly, and abortion rates drop like a rock. Yet so many of the conservatives who claim to be prolife are AGAINST measures that would actually drop the abortion rate, like antipoverty measures, comprehensive sex education, and widely available affordable contraception.

            • The REAL factor in abortion is actually fornication and adultery. I understand that the percentage of abortions which are related to one of these two SINS is somewhere around 98%.

              But Christian preachers, and Christians in general, are not engaged in a worldwide movement to stop it. Instead, celibacy outside of marriage is ridiculed. God isn’t fooled.

                • NOBODY thinks a BABY is a punishment. Please don’t try to assign ideas to other so recklessly. A baby is a gift and a blessing. That’s not to say it’s easy to parent, it’s not.

                  Try this on for size:
                  So…you think a baby should be KILLED as punishment for being conceived by a “slut”?

                  I’ll bet you don’t. …but the illogical premise that assigns the former to others, can equally assign you the latter.

        • your comment says reach beyond the lives of the unborn do you not care for those that were never given a chance at life outside of the womb the truth is that white conservative people are the very people that give most to charities and pay most of the taxes that are collected in this country that funds the numerous welfare agencies that feeds and houses the poor so there how does a little truth go down your gullet sister

        • There are many of us good ones. This should not have been directed to white christians. It is a very unfair stereotype that paints me, a white christian, to be basically ugly in regard to humanity. I have a love for all lifeforms, irregardless of any adjective or label you can apply to them. Our world saddens me greatly. We are so cruel to one another. A personal and deep relationship with Christ is what opened my eyes to the pain and suffering going on in the world, and a deep need and want to help others, ALL others. No matter what. This article perhaps should be directed to only the Christian pretenders.

      • And it also means that you likely wouldn’t vote on only one issue, which I suspect is one of the biggest take aways for loving, charitable people like you. I agree that some of the language of this piece is divisive- I suspect that’s what made it “viral”. But the point is so important- look at ALL of life and perhaps we will realize that the unborn fetuses are far from biggest worry any of us should have right now.

        • I don’t believe it is divisive to point out the ways in which some pro life advocates behave towards those already here. The truth may be uncomfortable for some but it is still the truth.

          • Brava, Evelyn.
            Facing the truth sets free. We have to let the light pierce the darkness. Jesus says lots of truths so uncomfortable, they are ignored.

        • only if you are not one of the unborn fetuses is it not a worry there A and by the way we old white people like to call them unborn babies

      • Took the words out of my mouth. I’ll add that it takes some kind of viciousness to attempt to paint this picture he has. It is an absurd lie

        • I’d also point out it’s pretty galling for someone who lives in a college town to call out people who live in the suburbs. I’m sure that hypocrisy flies with the sort of readership that gobbles up this nonsense.

      • Then you’re not the people that he’s referring to here. Duh! You’re more like the example he wants people who claim to be “pro-life” to be. Get your head out of you ass and stop taking offense so easily. Maybe it’s because of a guilty conscience…

      • I agree with you 100%. This article is extremely narrow-minded and VERY hurtful. I started to get choked up – thinking that people actually believe that is how “we” believe. Truly staggering. I am so angry.

        • Try to think about it this way, as a conditional argument:

          John is saying that IF you are conservative, Christian, and pro-life, AND these other things describe you, THEN this, that, and so forth.

          He is not saying that ALL conservative Christian pro-lifers ARE this, that, and so forth.

          • Amy, you are right that he isn’t saying “ALL conservative Christian pro-lifers ARE this, that, and so forth” but he is certainly insinuating that MOST of them are by the way he titles the post and how he continues his diatribe. It is insulting and could have been written in a totally different manner in order to get his so-called point across.

            • I think you are seeing what you want to see, and reading his words uncharitably. Aren’t Christians supposed to be humble and willing to search themselves and make sure that their hearts are pure? Has it become a Christian virtue to take offense at all things and leap into defensive mode and refuse to use their God-given minds to try to understand nuance and engage their empathetic capacities? Same as anything else out there–if you think something doesn’t apply to you, then just move on. Regardless of his phrasing, I think it’s clear that he’s calling on people who are voting for Trump only because they identify as “pro-life” to make sure that their reasoning is consistent and their perspective is broad enough to consider all these other variables that negatively impact quality of life.

              • It IS a Christian virtue to call out someone when they are speaking falsley. This article went against the Bible at least once by saying that we should allow homosexuals to get married. I am also appalled at the way people defend this article by not promoting life and saying words that bring death. Such as insults like “Has it become a Christian virtue to take offense at all things and leap into defensive mode and refuse to use their God-given minds to try to understand nuance and engage their empathetic capacities? ” To say to someone that if it doesn’t apply to you then move on, is to dismiss them because they don’t agree that the article is good, and I am fully expecting very negative responses to what I am saying. I say something because I want Christians to see what I believe is Biblical, and when I believe something contradicts the Bible, I am actually being pro life by speaking out against it as this is exactly what Paul did. I wish that people wouldn’t resort to name calling and insulting, which I have seen in many posts. I get his intention to look all of life, not just when it is a fetus, and I can agree with that. I just can’t agree with an all permissive outlook, and I don’t believe Jesus would either.

              • Yeah, because Pavlovitz is so charitable to those with whom he disagrees. Give me a break. This is red meat for a particular niche.

            • That’s what he does. Read his other blog posts. He attacks conservative Christians. I expect a blog post in the future blaming Christians for all the murders in Chicago. I’m sure he could find a way to do it, and his sheep will follow along.

          • “John is saying that IF you are conservative, Christian, and pro-life, AND these other things describe you, THEN this, that, and so forth.”

            Then he sucks at communicating his point.

        • You SHOULD be angry, but not for the reason that you are stating. The writer of this article is pointing out the inconsistencies of some pro-lifers. I’m sorry if you don’t like it, but it doesn’t make it any less true. You should be angry that there are people out there that DO behave this way and give others that would classify themselves in a similar fashion a bad rap. Be angry that there are people out there that cannot be bothered to help the baby once it’s born. Be angry that there are people who ignore the need for improvements to the foster care system or turn a blind eye to the girl that was raped and is being forced to carry the baby to term just to have the child put up for adoption and the responsibility of the state. Why does being pro-life stop with birth for some pro-lifers? THAT should be why you should be angry Angela.

        • “I started to get choked up – thinking that people actually believe that is how “we” believe.”

          Never occurred to me to take it personally. We can all do better with our empathy toward others, especially those that we don’t know that well. Please don’t take this thoughtful piece as an attack. That would be a waste. Rather, lets examine ourselves and see if we can do better.

      • Amen to your comment Susanne. I also believe this piece, while well meaning, is very devisive and racist in and of itself, and further perpetuates hate for the white man, rather than just encouraging them to be better, which I think was the idea. Granted a large portion of pro-lifers happen to be caucasion so that is why the author directed this message to them obviously. But I truly believe the “white pro-lifers” that DON’T help their community with their time and $ are so few, when this article makes them out to be the majority. It’s a slap in the face to the many, many thousands of “white, Christian, pro-lifers” I know personally, who volunteer their $ and time daily/weekly/monthly and are now grouped into this unfortunate stereotype that elicites hate towards me or my family because of my religion and race, when they know nothing of my contributions. It should have just been addressed to all pro-life mankind noting it is directed at the few who do nothing. Im seeing such a popular culture trend lately to hate whites and/or Christians. Hypocrisy. Don’t seek justice for one/many stereotyped groups while condemning and sterotyping another. There are plenty of pro-lifer’s of every color that don’t help, & should be encouraged to. There are some pro-lifers who are white Christians and don’t help to be sure. But based on my own observations many do help. I actually personally know very few “conservative white christians” that don’t volunteer their love, life and $ to helping anyone in need. So I honestly don’t think the writer did much research other than just looking at the basic pro life statistics. I know about 150+ Teenage youth (many of which are white/Christian) getting ready to give up their sleep this coming Saturday morning to go revitalize 2 inner city schools here in Houston. Not sure you could even quantify all of the volunteer efforts and $ given by this particular demographic anyway, but there is way more good being done than not. But we all know it’s the negative stuff that gets the most air time. Or in this articles case the few “white Christian pro-lifers” that do nothing to help. I am so sick of the dividing of our country. Encourage all people to do good. All those bullit points were great. They should have just been directed at pro-lifers in general who don’t do anything.

        • “are now grouped into this unfortunate stereotype that elicites hate towards me or my family because of my religion and race”

          Really? Seriously? You are part of the majority religion and the majority demographic in this country. If you think that YOU are facing “hate,” then you haven’t walked a mile in the shoes of other people who have actually experienced it. No, what you are referring to is a societal pushback against the privilege that we whites and Christians have always held in the country, and all too often we have used as a weapon to keep other groups in a subordinate position. The criticism that many Christians are facing is the result of a decades-long religious right overreach, particularly in politics, that has harmed and insulted so many people for so long. They are not criticizing your faith, they are criticizing the harm that some Christians have inflicted in the name of their faith. It’s very serious and very real. Please don’t pretend that the religious right has not gotten into the faces of groups of people that they loudly condemn as “sinful,” or that they haven’t used their influence to pass laws that trample on other people’s rights. And most of all, please do not confuse this as a response to your faith itself, but rather to all the injustices inflicted in the name of Christianity.

          • You seem to have an underdeveloped understanding of what “shut up” entails. The comments are a thoughtful, respectful exchange of ideas, and disagreements, with a persistent, condescending tone coming almost exclusively from “Amy”.
            Take a break.

      • There is all too often a huge gap between the values one espouses, and the values which can be inferred from one’s supported policy prescriptions. This article is criticizing the latter.

        The author does not imagine that conservative Christians (a group I once counted myself among) literally go around thinking “I only value affluent, white, Christian, heteronormative lives!”

        But the political positions that conservatives take, and the issues they choose to care or not care about paint a very different picture of what they value in practice.

        There are always explanations given for why a policy will theoretically help everyone, but there is never any doubt that conservative policies serve to empower people who are some combination of white, affluent, straight, male, and Christian. It never really occurs to conservatives to test hypotheses like Trickle Down Economics (used to justify rolling back welfare programs) abstinence-only education (proven to increase teen pregnancy rates and abortions), or loose gun laws (proven to increase suicide/homicide). It’s all about the values you had in your heart when you voted for these policies, consequences be damned!

        People on the left (mostly) do not think that conservatives have vicious intentions when they support policies which hurt the weak while aiding the strong. Morally, there’s a big difference between doing something knowingly harmful and doing it out of pure intentions, and I firmly believe conservative Christians are by and large the latter.

        But when it comes to public policy, the intentions of policy makers, however noble or ignoble, are beside the point. Policies, unlike people, are to be judged solely upon their outcomes.

        This is probably the biggest source of misunderstanding between Right and Left IMO – people the Left mostly want to judge policies based on their outcomes (and often rather judgmentally conflates outcomes with intentions), while people on the Right tend to insist that the intentions behind policies be take into account (or even supersede the outcomes).

        I’ve found this divide (which research shows is a real thing) helpful in understanding why conversations tend to break down so often.

      • Amen! Thank you for this response and for all the good you and your family have brought to this world. A world that we were given by our parents who chose life and of course all the credit goes to God himself. This is such a sad article that people truly believe that true White Christians feel this way. Maybe those who feel this way need to go along on a mission trip with a conservative white Christian to see if they come home with these same beliefs.

      • I think it’s necessary to remember that not all Christians share all these opinions. There are anti-death penalty, pro-marijuana legalization Christians. There are plenty of Christians who do believe poverty is an issue that may need serious intervention. The generalization of Christians is divisive, in the same way that characterizing all Muslims as terrorists is divisive. Suzanne’s comment seems a necessary reminder that Christians, even white ones, like any group should not be pigeon-holed into a one-size-fits-all view.

      • Adoption is not “pro-life” either, when it involves taking a womb-wet infant from a disempowered woman who is otherwise fit to parent, but for a lack of resources and support. Especially if it is a child of another race (eh you did you feel it necessary to place that in quotes?) or culture. Then it becomes the worst example of white saviour, classist neo-colonialism and is about nothing more than the adopters’ need to stroke their own egos. And in the case of intercountry adoption, it often involves the illegal trafficking of children, no proper consents from the child’s parents or extended natural family, and huge profit to agencies and other unscrupulous brokers.

        If your children are giving a permanent home to one of the more than 100k children languishing in state care (the original and true intent of adoption as social policy), then it might be worthy of respect. But that also depends upon how that child is treated as he develops: will he be seen as a blank slate upon which the adopters think they can write their own narrative? Will he be permitted to live his own narrative, fully embrace and know his own culture and origins? Will he be continually told he should feel “lucky” or “grateful” he was “saved”? Will he be paraded on social media with some icky “gotcha day” story, crowing about some “journey” that the child hasn’t even begun to live (adoption is a lifelong experience) and over which he has no agency?

        These are all issues we, as adult adoptees (particularly transracial or intercountry) face. And then to further throw mud in our eye, we’re treated as second-class citizens in all but 6 states and denied access to the same document of our birth that every other non-adopted citizen enjoys. If we dare speak these truths publicly, on forums like this, we’re told to shut up and be grateful, or that we’ve some axe to grind.

        Adoption is not the yin to abortion’s yang. The former is the choice (and the word “choice” is used here guardedly, as most adoption involves a distinct lack of choices/options, as well as the aforementioned disempowerment, of women) not to parent; the latter is the legal choice to terminate a pregnancy. Only a woman who’s been utterly shamed, coerced or left without any other option/resources would choose to carry a pregnancy to term, only to give the child up to a stranger.

        So no, adoption does not fall under the category of “pro-life,” unless it meets the very limited criteria I’ve described above. And if you disagree with that précis, and choose instead to demean or admonish me for speaking a truth and narrative that I and 6 million other Americans have lived, then you only prove it to be true and have no actual respect for adoptees or their lives.

        • I truly want to be respectful to you and your story, but it is difficult due to the utterly appalling leaps of logic and projection of a very specific story onto all adoption stories. Five of my siblings are adopted, along with the children of many friends. To suggest that ONLY a mother who’s been shamed and coerced would consider placing their baby for adoption is a horrifying bit of lunacy. I know SO many people on so many sides of this…ALL of the mothers made this brave choice to give their children their best chance in life. Parenting isn’t about our needs, it’s about those of our children.

          Also, most foster children aren’t there because they are babies who were never adopted…they are predominantly kids who were taken from unfit parents, who could have saved their children much hardship by acknowledging their unfitness early and making an adoption plan. It’s sad if parents who may want to parent truly can’t care for their children, but it’s about what’s best for the kids in the end.

      • I agree with you Suzanne. Obviously, if I’m “white” and I don’t champion every liberal cause (regardless of how it’s spun by the author), I’m not pro-life enough for the author.

      • Suzanne have you watched any of the news film on Donald Trump’s campaign trail? I don’t think that the “majority” of pro-birth people are pro-life like yourself. Why can’t we handle those who have been born, get that worked out for betterment of ALL people than the unborn.

      • That is wonderful! I think we are all looking for more people to be like you. I suspect you – like myself – will be screaming at the current administration (not just Trump but the whole lot of them) that they will support universal healthcare, quality affordable education, and a livable minimum wage as basic human rights.

    • I take issue with this article as it draws away from the true issue of Pro- life, it wants to draw you into a whole series of issues so you don’t face just Pro-life! Until you have lost a child at birth and know others are destroying lives at or just before that point I’m not sure you can go jumping around from one issue to the other and truly understand what pro-life means. Reach out and hug a child and then step back and think what if someone had taken it’s life before you had that chance to hug it!
      Pro-life isn’t whether your don’t like one color of skin or one belief or another that comes with living and learning, pro-life is having that chance to live and learn, to be hugged and to be loved. That’s PRO-life.
      And to get political I believe that is how Trump believes just look at his family and how their loved.

      • The author is engaging with the set of policy ideas and values that usually (but not always) accompany a Pro-Life position: lower taxes, reduce welfare payments, eliminate regulation, defend the police, teach abstinence only in school, defund Planned Parenthood, skepticism towards feminism and Black Lives Matter, support for gun rights and Stand Your Ground laws, opposition to universal healthcare, etc.

        Basically, if you claim to be pro-life but also support these demonstrably unjust policies, there is some hypocrisy or at least blindness at play. If you’re Pro-Life and also believe in supporting single mothers, the poor, the disabled, providing healthcare for all and getting guns off the street, that’s much more respectable than someone who is Pro-Life but hews to a viciously individualistic, vindictive and un-Christlike set of policies everywhere else.

        • “Basically, if you claim to be pro-life but also support these demonstrably unjust policies, ”

          Except he doesn’t demonstrate whether and how they are unjust. He just asserts people who disagree with his preferred policy recommendations don’t care about them.

          He also asserts pro-lifers don’t care about forced prostitution, which is simply a slur.

          The point of this piece isn’t sophisticated. It’s not lost on the people who are irritated by it. It’s just not a compelling piece of writing. Why not just concede that?

          • True, the piece is more polemic than detailed argument in favor of a set of policies. But I think it captures a very important reality, one that I personally experienced in my evangelical upbringing and which – however poorly (or not at all lol) argued in this piece – needs to be shared.

            • “True, the piece is more polemic”

              That’s all it is. Polemic does not reveal truth, by definition. This is sloppy, mean-spirited writing.

            • Thank you Brett for saying exactly what I have been trying to say, but you say it so much more eloquently. You cannot follow Jesus’ teachings and support leaders who make policies that abandon the poor. A livable minimum wage, universal healthcare, and quality education are minimum needs. Christians must support these issues in order to follow Jesus’ teaching to care for the poor.

    • This is a horrible generalization of a group of people that you do not seem to know anything about. I spend many days out on a sidewalk talking with men, women and teenagers about the sanctity of life. Yes, I’m pro-abortion, BUT, I am also pro-life. Our group, 40 Days for Life supports mothers, fathers and their child/children as long as they need support, no questions asked, and we support the ones that choose abortion as well. Without hesitation, without judgement! We offer community support, caring, prayers, compassion, medical, physical and spiritual help to every race, religion, straight, gay, drug-addicted, homeless, and mentally ill for 40 days, twice a year and many other days in between the pre-set campaigns. We give of our time, our $$$$, our hearts, our talents reaching out to the marginalized of society. Oh, and we support law-enforcement and follow the laws. You write a generalized article behind your computer screen in the comfort of your home or office while we are out there in a not so great part of the city, serving food to the hungry, taking abused and beaten homeless men and women to the hospital for stitches and x-rays. We bring clothing and food to those in need. We supply information on services available in our area. We DO NOT endorse capital punishment. Thousands upon thousands of Catholics and christians in the United States and the world participate in these twice a year campaigns. Not ONE that I have met represent your skewed vision of what pro-life is! STOP with this divisive rhetoric NOW! Get yourself out on the street and help out!

    • Really? I thought the author was a whining crybaby, spouting liberal talking points wrapped in white guilt and dipped in self-righteousness. But maybe I was reading a different article. I’m black, I know that I’m going to have to care about my own situation more that I expect anyone else too. Call me a throw back. A throw back from the time when blacks had their own buisnesses and schools. Their own entertainment, their own pride. Now all we can do is sit around and entertain socialists crap like the above. Listening to stuff like this, is exactly how the Church is going to sell itself out in the last days.

    • Funny how left-wingers insist that right-wingers should not judge them, then judge right-wingers like crazy. Pavlocitz’s article is prejudiced against my demographic. Why does he feel so free to be so judgmental? The Crisis Pregnancy centers that I know about help unwed mothers for a log time after their baby is born.

    • re the line of reasoning that exalts helping people after they have been born (through government programs of course) being better than restricting abortion; I give people who want to help people through government programs the benefit of the doubt that they really want to help people. I just disagree that the government is the best way to help them. I’d like them to also give me the benefit of the doubt that I dont want to oppress people just because I dont think government is very good at helping people. I think there is more bang for the buck through private charities and churches. Please give conservatives the benefit of the doubt that we do care and we prove it by freely contributing to and serving in such charities. Why is being prolife and antiabortion considered incompatible with voluntary help of the needy? By the way, WHY does Pavlocitz not “celebrate” abortion? Admit it… its because the unborn child is a human life. And since the baby is a human life, his/her life should be protected by law just like a 20 year olds life is protected. Its as easy and simple a principle as that.

    • The author has it backwards. If a society has no regard for the sanctity of the tiniest and most vulnerable, that society will perpetuate violence, lack of charity, injustice, and all human failures and shortcomings.

    • we need to focus on the most prevelant wrong, abortion. i am not saying other lifes that are hurting and starving dont matter, they do! but how we even have those lives if abortion continues? why compare the two when the are incomparable in the since where you CANNOT ethically choose one over the other if you ACTUALLY believe why you say, if you can, please enlighten me.

    • This was a very interesting read, but I think this article is false in generalizing specifically “white Christian conservatives”. It is important to understand what Pro-Life. Pro-life means, well, pro-life. Pro-life does not mean quality of life. Quality of life is a subjective issue. Life vs. death is a black and white issue – it’s objective. All of the points discussed in this article address topics that pertain to an individual’s quality of life, not whether or not they get the basic human right to actually live. Being pro-life consists of being anti-abortion, anti-death penalty, anti-euthanasia, and anything in between the consists of physically depriving or robbing someone of life. This article is incorrect in labeling these issues as “life or death” (pro-life) issues. Another important component to realize is that the Christian church does not project or teach any of the things mentioned in the article as far as condemning or treating certain populations of people harshly. For those Christians that do, then they need to re-examine what God has revealed to us through time and scripture. There’s a huge difference between condemning people and condemning their actions, which is where I think a large majority of American Society gets confused. Although, I do also believe that addressing quality of life is a very important issue!

    • Unfortunately, this man has not done his research. For many if not most of the serious issues above…Christians are doing many things…giving their money in some cases…to address many of the problems.

      A few things…Human trafficking/forced prostitution…ANY prostitution (It’s slavery…and a life-shortening horrible life…despite some at the UN saying it’s just “sex workers”). For one, the Salvation Army…has — since the 19th century — been working to help girls, women come out of prostitution and get healing, help, and a restored life. (Look up the Salvation Army human trafficking website online…they will tell you details of the VAST worldwide problem caused when men buy girls/women…). And the Salvation Army is just one of the ministries by Christians which would work in various cities in the world (London…Chicago…etc). to help the downtrodden / poor in the inner cities. (The bellringers collect money for them…) This would include various people on your list above..

      Local churches also regularly do charity work…sometimes it’s helping people in their congregation who have lost jobs…with money, help around the house, food, perhaps job contacts.

      Habitat for Humanity…our church (and many others) send volunteers to build homes for mainly women with kids. And they train the recipients in some home building/maintenance skills along the way. Many homes are built for persons of different races, etc. As far as I have heard one need not be a Christian…tho there are minimum requirements for getting a home (like working a certain number of hours on other houses).

      Prison Fellowship (and lots of people unofficially) Some from this area work regularly in prisons to counsel, support, help the people there. This was a direct command of Jesus…to visit the prisoners…and others who are down and out.

      Local Hospitals…Many of them were started by Christians. (Some still bear a faith based name). Some Christian doctors/nurses –some I have known/met go overseas to volunteer free medical care for persons in impoverished areas.

      GodWater – A few people I know…locally have a very costeffective ministry. They cut a deal with Sawyer Water Purification…and raise $$$ to buy $50 little units that will last for many years. Each unit can filter out almost all poisons and save many lives.

      Many pregnancy crisis centers (and people like my grandmother and others I know) who help women girls bring their baby to term, get job training, emotional support, also. They are NOT mentioned on the news so they seem invisible.

      the list goes on and on and on…Remember… the media (and even some in college, entertainment) really do NOT even know the huge amount of private and organizational aid, training, comfort, care, instruction, food, etc. goes out to many people here and overseas. And yes…lots of White Christians involved…along with Christians of different races.

    • Very wordy once again

      Y’all only need look at Mother Theresa

      I think that lady really was pro life
      Dontcha think?
      And when she was in the slums of Calcutta, did she ever once say that all you rich and privileged people cannot say you are pro life like me?????


    • Very wordy once again

      Y’all only need look at Mother Theresa

      I think that lady really was pro life
      Dontcha think?
      And when she was in the slums of Calcutta, did she ever once say that all you rich and privileged people cannot say you are pro life like me?????


    • This man is dispicable! Don’t you see John that by you labeling white conservative Christians you are equally racist. ? Pro life is NOT a racist issue and I won’t allow you to make it one! ALL lives matter and every race and culture My husband is taxed in the 50% and tithe and we have taken in a girl whose own mother threw her out of the house as she wouldn’t have an abortion and I’m a social worker for 20 years Your article and beliefs are ????????. And you aren’t reading the same red words in the bible that I am reading You are leading many astray Search the Bible again

    • Diana there may be a message in this?article for some, however as a prolife republican who did not vote for Trump despite my desire to end the genocide of 55 million babies, I care about all human beings, to me this argument makes no sense we want to stop the killing of all babies red, yellow, black or white and lgbt. These babies grow up into adults like Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton or Bruce Jenner. Who are we to decide thier lives don’t matter to deny them the same pain and misery, love and joy we all enjoy. Even the argument that they will be born into poverty ect. Certainly killing them should not be our choice.
      In Africa where they are born in poverty should we provide them with birth control, morning after pills, and Tubal locations, Or should we set up abortion clinics?

    • Outstanding! I missed the part where the fetus should be totally able-bodied too, so that you don’t have to grip about frills like ADA-compliant sidewalks or ASL interpreters or Braille publications.

    • You do not know what every white Christian person is thinking. I am a Christian and prolife, and I’m tired of people like you thinking you know what is in my heart and mind based on the color of my skin and my faith. In fact, I call that prejudice. Would you like it if I said every black Muslim male just wants to fight and shoot cops? That is exactly what you are doing to the prolife white Christian. Regarding abortion, no matter how you try to sugarcoat it, and declare women’s rights, abortion is murder of a human based on age, that is ageism, because that human is a certain age, that human can be killed. I will never agree with that. Next thing we know, 85 year old grandma is too inconvenient for her grown daughter’s career goals, grandma wets herself, makes a mess when she eats, and costs too much, so let’s kill her too. That is the exact same logic as abortion. Next, let’s kill our mentally ill cousin, he is really bothersome. Where does it end? Human life is sacred. Martin Luther King, was prolife, so don’t dump all the bad in your world on white Christians.

    • John, it seems to me that you are so consumed in grand eleoquence that you have written quite deplorably, condemning people you don’t know, or know anything about. Since you are so perfect and the rest of us are such miscreants, maybe what you should be doing is praying for us like the straight (it’s in the Bible, look it up) Christian conservatives do. Read Romans I while your at it.

    • Something for John to ponder, if Hilary had said she was in support of 1,000 refugees being shot executioner-style each month, and that she would also ensure tax-payer money went to fund the officials who performed the executions, would you still have considered Hilary the better choice over Donald? Unfortunately, Americans were handed 2 dismal options for president, but one candidate said that he would use his power to stop the killing of late-term babies (13,000 of which are killed each year in the US; these are babies that could have been delivered via c-section and put up for adoption). Even though Donald goes against so many of my own values, because of Hilary’s late-term abortion stance and Donald’s vow to do something to stop it, if I were an American citizen, I would have had to swallow my bile, and vote for Donald.

    • An AMAZING talent you have for twisting everything that is said about ANYthing into something altogether different from the original meaning. You have very efficiently convoluted the obvious meaning of ‘pro-life’ into something that it is not. And into somthing that meets your agenda. You address MANY issues and by associating PRO LIFE to all these, you take away and weaken the original thought. Your issues are not to be addressed with PRO-LIFE as it is commonly understood. Abortion is not to be lumped in with GUNS, RACE, LGBT, TEACHERS, PROSTITUTION lest you degrade them all. A person can be aligned with any of these causes and not be aligned with them all. And that does not make them a bad person except perhaps in your eyes.

  1. This is spot-on. It’s hard when neither candidate we’re being offered seems to respect and value all life, though. More and more I am considering not voting this time.

      • Hi Leslie Marshall. You and your conservative friends are always looking for ways to trip folks up.

        It’s pretty obvious from the phone calls that the PP employee was caught off guard and didn’t actually understanding what they were being told about the donation.

      • Wow! You reveal your true nature. We are a country with so many problems, but you seem willing to vote for Hillary, a know liar and a person that stole BILLIONS of dollars from the poorest of the poor in Haiti because you want to make sure that Planned Parenthood which is a company that makes money, receives tax payers money! Unbelievable. How incredibly shallow this particular thought is.
        And just the title of the story is song inaccurate, because we all know that the high number of aborted babies are black, and that is by design of PP founder Margaret Sanger.
        I love the open hypocrisy, it makes it so easy to identify people like this author for what they are.

  2. Abortion is horrible just like war is horrible and yet people agree and even glorify wars and guns. If abortion is murder then war is murder.

    • War is not murder. Not if it’s just and to prevent a greater evil.

      There is no justification for the war on the unborn which kills many times more people than war. In the US is 3,000 PER DAY. The most dangerous place to be is in the womb.

        • That living in poverty is ‘worse’ than killing an unborn person is beyond ridiculous.

          Being poor is not a sin! In fact, its rather normal.

          Most people in the world grow up in ‘poverty’. Yet they have family, they have a purpose in life, they have joys, challenges, and HOPE.

          To take away some one’s hope is evil, and is the pinnacle of delusional Self- Aggrandizement .

            • Speaking as one who has lived below the poverty line for a single person for over twenty years, I assure you, “Benny,” that many of us poor people believe that the goal of the Republican is indeed to kill all the poor people.

                  • Kelly Thomas was a homeless man diagnosed with schizophrenia who lived on the streets of Fullerton, California. He was beaten by six members of the Fullerton Police Department, on July 5, 2011. He later died of his injuries.

                • Kathy, I have to know how you can make the Kelly Thomas beating an indictment of republicans. Because Orange County leans conservative? It seems pretty inflammatory and not something I would have expected from you, based on reading your other comments.

                  What don’t I know about the case that makes it political? The city residents recalled three councilmen for failing to properly handle the issue, by a wide margin. Doesn’t seem like the average Fullerton resident, who is likely a republican, was cool with it.

                    • I think good people when they realize the system they are upholding has gone wrong, such as the misuse of law and order, it is their duty to do something as citizens.

                      America is a democracy not tyranny.

                    • I don’t disagree. None of that means what happened to Kelly Thomas means around half the country wants to kill poor people. It was a ridiculous statement.

                    • Only you could take my statement of empathy for Kelly Thomas and twist it into something accusatory.

                      And when we walk by the poor on the street and despise them or blame them or wish they would go away or we call the police because they are hanging around with no place to go, that speaks volumes to the indifference and deep seated bias we have against them.

                      My original comment: “Kelly Thomas must have felt that way”

                    • Then back it up. Do you know anything about the political leanings of the cops that beat him to death? Was there something in the court testimony that led you to your conclusion? My money is on “no” being the answer to both.

                      Kelly Thomas was a schizophrenic. No one knows what was going through his mind. Nothing about that case has anything to do with ideology, yet you used to try to support Ms. Amalfitano’s belief that people who don’t share her political leanings are apparently genocidal mad men. There’s nothing empathetic about invoking a tragic, unnecessary, and wrongful death to make you and your friends feel superior to people you disagree with ideologically.

                  • I must admit, I hadn’t considered the possibility you might have been implying that only someone with a serious mental illness would believe that more than a hundred million people want nothing more than to kill anyone and everyone who lives below the poverty line. If that’s where you were going, then we are simpatico and you have my apologies. Truthfully, though, I don’t put much stock in that theory.

        • It is simple. Just ask one of those suffering children of they would prefer to be dead. As long as there is life, there is hope. Everyone deserves a chance to try this wonderful gift called life. Life is not a right, it is a gift

          • Apparently you haven’t hit rock bottom before. In my youth, I suffered so much that I DID wish I was dead or had been aborted. Children who are abused still have a chance at ultimately healing and living full lives, but statistically speaking, they are much more likely to have emotional and socioeconomic struggles for the rest of their lives. Childhood trauma changes the brain and stunts healthy development. Such children are suffering far worse than you realize.

        • Great logic. This child may experience abuse…….so lets kill it!!! Abortion is the ultimate ultimate ULTIMATE abuse. To try and justify it for imagined potential abuse is beyond ridiculous. And besides YOU are held guilty if you support the ultimate abuse. And if that potential abuse turns into real abuse they whoever did it will be held guilty not you.

          • Do you not understand the difference between an unconscious embryo and a conscious, fully-developed human actually capable of feeling pain and being self aware? Many pregnancies spontaneously abort anyway. It happens.

            • Those “embryo’s” as you call them (I call them baby’s) feel pain. They can be aborted up until delivery. 20 week old baby’s survive. Can you say they don’t feel pain?

        • Are you nuts? Life is a crap-shoot. Roll the dice! Who are you to say someones life isn’t worth living? Do you set yourself to be the same as the Most High? Be careful!

        • Of course it is a worse evil to kill someone than to abuse them!! An abused person is still alive and has the possibility to triumph over their pain, to get better not bitter. Remember the saying, “where theres life theres hope”? Its incredible to not be able to see that its worse to kill someone than it is to wound them.

      • TROLL ALERT. Please do not feed the troll. This “Benny” perfectly represents everything John P. has said. Those of us following John P know that “Benny” cannot be rational on the subject of abortion as he is voting for Trump because “Benny” claims to like Trump’s policies which are bigoted, discriminatory, gynophobic, homophobic, intolerant, misogynistic, racist, sexist, transgenderphobic, white supremacist, and xenophobic. These polices have also been denouced by various experts, including a Nobel Laureate economist.

        But “Benny” doesn’t care about any of that because Trump is anti-abortion, even though Trump has no interest in seeing that anyone thrives in this country except rich, straight, white males.

        • As a Catholic main who desires justice for all, I have no choice but to vote according to my conscience. I always vote for what I consider will result in the greatest good for all. After consulting my conscience which was informed by teachings of my Church and further by participation in her Holy Sacraments, I have concluded that Trump is a much better choice than crooked-Hillary, aka The Wicked Witch of the West.

          • Let me get this straight. You believe the greatest good is to be bigoted, discriminatory, gynophobic, homophobic, intolerant, misogynistic, racist, sexist, transgenderphobic, white supremacist, and xenophobic?

            Because a vote for Trump is a vote for this stuff.

            Calling Hillary names is yet more evidence that you are a troll.

            • Don’t be such a hypocrite. When it comes to name-calling, you’re the worst here, except for JohnP.

              You are also behaving like a troll when you refuse to engage in an honest discussion. You know I have no intention of voting for those things.

              • Benny, it’s a simple fact. You claim to be voting for Trump because you like his policies.

                His policies are bigoted, discriminatory, gynophobic, homophobic, intolerant, misogynistic, racist, sexist, transgenderphobic, white supremacist, and xenophobic.

                There is no escaping that. I am sorry that the truth offends you. If you don’t wish to be considered any of these things, then vote for someone who is not bigoted, discriminatory, gynophobic, homophobic, intolerant, misogynistic, racist, sexist, transgenderphobic, white supremacist, and xenophobic.

        • Gloriamarie, TRIGGERED much? Heaven forbid somebody express a thought or opinion that differs from your own. You seem to be the troll. Citing an article about trolling and calling for people to not interact with them? Really? Although I don’t agree with these guys I’m not utterly offended by them…you on on the other hand…. Go find a safe place or something where you don’t have to be subjected to the ideas and opinions of others in the big scary world.

          • You know, there is a vast difference between intellectual disagreement and bashing groups of already-mistreated people you just don’t like (LGBT folks, people of other races and religions, etc.). It isn’t just ideas and opinions when someone slanders and condemns other groups of people.

              • Way to miss the whole doggone point, Gwen. Gloriamarie just a bit above talked about people who are homophobic, transphobic, sexist, racist, etc. Then you jumped in with your acerbic crap about “safe spaces” and how only “ideas” are involved, when ideas have consequences. That is what I was getting at.

                • Thank you, Amy.

                  “I didn’t see any comments on here where they slandered the poor or LGBT people.”

                  Both were slandered yesterday.

          • Gwen K, a person is only called a troll when they write in a respectful validating manner, which you did not do yourself. You have made judgments and assumptions about me. It would have been so much more respectful for you to ask why I wrote what I did, rather than assume you know my motivations. Assuming is not respectful.

            I welcome disagreement handled in a courteous manner.

            One primary characteristics of an Internet troll is the desire to harm another person.

            The mendaciously named “Paul Inberea” knows quite well that I wish to be addressed by my correct first name. If that is too laborious for her to type, then I have suggested she address me by my title.

            Because she repeatedly refuses to respect my request, she reveals a desire to harm, therefore a troll. I get to set the boundaries about my being. No one else.

        • Where? He actually responded to me?

          If you’re referring to this Christian hit-piece, I wouldn’t know where to begin. There are so many logical fallacies and lies.

          Is he pro-life btw? Is he saying he’s pro-life AND not all those nasty things he accuses other Christians of being. Or is that his excuse for supporting baby-killing?

          • People go to war because they have no choice being born in a violent world but it does not justify going to war….especially the U.S. Civil war. Both sides thought they were right and still do. Read God’s and Generals.

            Such a waste of human life.

            • I’ve read it. Along with the rest of Shaara’s books. They are fantastic.

              The Civil War kept the country together, and ultimately abolished slavery. Worthy ends, though at a horrific cost, no doubt. I don’t care if the South thought they were in the right. So did the Japanese. Just because they believed it, doesn’t make it true.

              • The ends justifies the means is a human philosophy by Niccolò Machiavelli and it was Augustine who rationalized the just-war idea from a christian point of view.

                Because we are feeble humans in a violent world. We use our means to understand the world but God’s thoughts are higher and humans can’ figure out how to get to peace.

                Jesus showed the way to non-violence.

                If people stopped getting riled up by the bullies and kings of the world they would stop fighting each other. We can learn peaceful resolutions.

                God is not on the side or group that wins the war, God is with the individual caught up in the war. And as it says in the Bible his concern is for the mess they are in and the troubles they have.

                So no matter what side your think you are on it doesn’t make you a better christian or person in God’s sight.

                • What does this have to do with anyone being a better Christian? Ideally, war never happens. This is, of course, not an ideal world. Evil people will always exist, and sometimes they command armies. “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” Just because war is abominable doesn’t mean we can’t decide that in certain conflicts, there is indeed a clear distinction between the right side and the wrong side.

                  • Exactly, God is not the one telling us to go to war or teaching us to choose, people are! And leaders manipulate people into to going along with it, by defending the killing of others; because we are trapped in this worldy system… instead of living like Jesus did.

      • So you want to take responsibility for the thousands of children in foster care? Add on top of that all the children who are neglected and abused?

      • A lot of innocent citizens get killed in war, just or not. This is murder. People don’t volunteer to get bombed or shot, not typically.

      • Benny, whose job is it to determine the definition of “greater evil”? Let’s give it a try, shall we?

        Which is the greater evil:
        1. Forcing a woman to have a child that she never intended to conceive and then not supporting the resources to properly care for the child potentially causing the child harm
        2. Terminating the unintended pregnancy?

        What about the parents that make the heartbreaking decision to terminate because of severe birth defects that they are not capable of taking care of? Or of the 12 year old rape victim? Or any rape victim for that matter! There are an over abundance of children in “the system” already, so the argument for adoption in this case doesn’t hold water.

      • Gloriamarie, Exactly the point I am making. If we can justify war they we should be able to understand how people can justify abortion.

        • Do you believe there is a thing called Justice?

          War is a type of Self Defense, and is sometimes justifiable. Not always.

          Where’s the Justice in killing unborn?

          • I think Jesus took the path of non-violence as an example for us.

            I can’t justify abortion but I understand and listen to the reasons people give.

            I can’t justify war either And although my position is one of conscientious objection to the use of force I understand the rationale people give for it.

            • Jesus tells us that all the Law and Prophets are summed up in two sentences. Love God with every fiber of one’s being. Love one’s neighbor as one’s self.

              Jesus also says some explicit things in the Sermons on the Plain and Mount which tell us to turn the other cheek and not to return evil with more evil.

              Over the millennia, Christians have found all sorts of justifications to avoid loving their neighbor. They have embraced some fairly revolting, self-serving rationales in order get away with it.

              • Sounds like you are a very bitter person! And to clump and assume all Christians are the same…sounds to me like you are part of the problem not the solution…pointing fingers and accusing others does nothing to resolve any of the issues you seem so concerned about.

                • Evidently, you are not a student of history. I am holding academic degrees in Church History.

                  Facts are facts.

                  In the future before you make such personal accusations of another, I suggest you ask some questions because you do not have enough information to cast aspersions on my character.

                  One of the characteristics of an Internet troll is that say mean things just to be mean. I hope that doesn’t describe you.

                • Force is justified in stopping evil aggression. Be a pacifist if you so choose, but you are protected by men with guns and without them you would be in worse place.

                  A fetus is not an evil aggressor. It is the son or daughter of the woman. It’s ridiculous to compare the killing of war to the killing caused by abortion.

                    • you are right God does not justify violence and war people do.

                      The hard saying of Jesus is that if we live by the sword then we die by it.

                      It used to be taught an ‘eye for an eye’ but Jesus told us to turn away from that thinking and system of law and order (Jesus came teaching repentance)

                      The hope is that despite our need to defend ourselves (and then become killers as well) he provides grace.

                      Because God understands the situation and the world (system) we are in.

                      We cannot support war on the one hand and condemn abortion on the other. These are both desperate and horrible choices being made by people confronted with impossible situations.

                      What is missing is our humility when we argue about it.

            • Kathy, when Jesus comes back, He’s coming back on a warhorse, to wage war. He will kill The Beast & every person in sight that has defied him. He will then destroy the whole World. A violent bloodbath like no one has ever seen.

              Repent & Believe.

              • There are many NT scholars who say that the entire Book of the Revelation is about Rome. It is not prophecy. Please stop reading symbolic language literalistically when it is meant to be read as metaphor.

                • How silly of me to have forgotten that detail.

                  The Book of the Revelation was the last text declared to be canonical. It almost didn’t make it.

                  Personally, I would have preferred the Acts of Paul and Thecla, which for a while was considered part of the NT canon. Its inclusion would have made it clear that Paul was egalitarian, that women were equal to men in ministry

              • Leslie I have already turned to God and believe in Jesus.

                The violent bloodbath you envision is a man made war. Jesus returns to bring peace to the world and healing to the earth.

          • “You will not kill” is straight forward and unambivalent.

            Yes, I know , “Paul Inberea,” you are going to respond with “The commandment says you will not murder.”

            To which I will reply, in Hebrew, any form of killing is murder.

            As for justice, since you are so very fond of quoting Biblical verses out of context, how about this one “Justice is mine, says the Lord?”

            I do not believe in murder in any form, such as the death penalty, vigilantism, or war. All of these are inconsistent with loving our neighbor.

              • I am pro-choice which means I believe we woman must have the right to choose for ourselves the type of lives we want to have.

                When you men cease to force yourselves upon women in the various ways too many of you do, when all men respect women as God respects women, the conversation about abortion will change dramatically.

                But as long as women are considered and treated as second-class citizens, we women will do what we can to protect ourselves.

                What I do or do not think about abortion is none of your business.

                • But abortion kills. It stops a beating heart. It kills every time, except sometimes the fetus wriggles free and escapes death, but that’s rare.

                  How can you say you oppose killing and then be good to go with 3,000 killings by abortionists every day?

                  • First of all, there are not 3000 abortions a day. I tried to find some statistics to back up your assertion, since you never provide any citations for the stuff you write, but the only sources are all one-issue sites. I could not find a non-partisan cite that cited such a statistic.

                    A fetus is not alive… it is a collection of cells that may or may not turn into a baby.

                    The Bible says the baby is not alive until after it is born and God breathes life into it.

                    • That 3,000 figure is a well-known statistic, as is over 50,000,000 abortions since Roe v Wade.

                      Where does it say in the Bible it’s not alive until born?

                      Are you “sola scriptura”? Do you believe what Paul says in the Bible about what will happen to those who practice sexual immorality, including the immorality of homosexual liaisons?

                  • The problem with this logic is that you are pushing for law to reflect your beliefs and not that of others. I’m a Christian and wish the best for others and help when I can. But I cannot justify forcing someone to remain pregnant after rape. There is significant research to support the idea that babies of depressed mothers will in turn have psychological problems. This is not the fault of the mother always. But we can afford the option of choice. Choice and the willingness to believe is part of faith. You cannot force someone to have faith. As we have a secular government, it seems wrong to me to force your religious beliefs upon someone else. They tried that in the Middle Ages and it didn’t work too well, threatening persons with the death or they could convert or be a slave. Which do you think they would choose? But then answer how do you think they felt about this forced conversion in their hearts?

                    I personally wouldn’t ever have an abortion, but just as that choice is my right, I refuse to disallow another’s ability to choose. That is different from being pro-murder, as some would say.

                    I find it also very convenient that some can justify war but not allow others to justify a choice of whether or not to remain pregnant. That fetus has a beating heart but it cannot survive outside of the womb. It is not an independent living being, but something living off its host (I.e. The mother) and therefore completely and totally independent. It is in many senses an aspect of that woman’s body because the two cannot be separated without the death of the fetus.

                    We choose to follow God’s law but not all do. It is through good works and through the intervention of God or grace that others will believe the same. Forcing Christian dogma into the law is forcing Christian thinking on all persons and I don’t believe that Jesus would want anyone to be forced to believe.

                    • I hate to tell you this, but my 4 year old is dependent. Infants are dependent. Heck, many teenagers and young adults are dependent. This doesn’t give me the right to kill any of them. Even if they are dependent upon ME.

            • GM… I think young David was obeying God when he struck the Philistine.

              ‘You come against me with a sword and spear and javelin, But I come against you in the name of the LORD Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied.’ (God had made a promise that [God’s] enemies will be defeated.)

              I don’t think David repented for obeying God and killing God’s enemy. But he did repent of Uriah’s death, which he was responsible for (and David suffered the dire consequences for the rest of his life.)

            • The bible has lots to say about all the different Hebrew words for ‘kill’… i.e., Murder, Manslaughter, Execution, Suicide, Blood avenger, Assassinate, Accidental death, etc.

              [Most translations choose to use the word ‘Murder’ rather than ‘Kill’ because it describes the intended meaning better, but not perfectly. ]

              The 6th Commandment is better stated: ‘There Shall be No Un- Authorized Killing’.

              • “The bible has lots to say about all the different Hebrew words for ‘kill’… i.e., Murder, Manslaughter, Execution, Blood avenger, Assassinate,”

                Nope. The Hebrew encompasses all of these. All the same Hebrew word.

                Your interpretation, however much it serves you personally, is not accurate because the Hebrew is adamant that people should not kill people. Just as with Jesus’ commandment to love one’s neighbor comes without a list of exceptions, footnotes or appendices, neither does the Sixth Commandment. God forbids killing under any circumstances.

                If people want to know what the Bible actually says, they need to learn the original languages. Until they do, they are forced into dependency upon translations and most of those were translated with an agenda.

          • Where’s the justice in letting a kid grow up in grinding poverty? Is that justice? I know because I did it. There ain’t no justice there, and no church in town gave a sh*t about it either—especially not your kind of church.

              • Please, I agree with you about the poor and week. Can you address what I actually said about neglect and abuse? Abortion to prevent an unwanted pregnancy from turning into an unwanted child raised by an unfit parent. How is terminating the beginning stages of a forming fetus, before its brain is developed enough to experience conscious pain, worse than a fully formed, fully conscious, independent person enduring a lifetime of physical and emotional pain? Why have the anti-abortion people not addressed this? I sincerely want to know.

                • We don’t believe it’s just a undeveloped blob of cells. We believe it’s a person with a soul.

                  We don’t kill people to put them out of their misery (or we shouldn’t), so we shouldn’t kill life in the womb to prevent POSSIBLE future misery.

                  It’s not our choice to make. It’s God’s job to give and take life, not ours, except in those special exceptions we’ve been given in regard to a just and safe society.

  3. Good sir, you lump too many people all into the same pile which is as bad as you mutterings above. The lady who start Planned Parenthood & abortions had one thing on her mind and that was to keep down the African American race. It was wasn’t to help anyone. Today it is a multi-million dollar industry. People do it for different reasons. Tolerance is a wonderful thing, but we must be tolerant of each other. Not the tolerance the liberals show which is things are ok as long as you agree with me. That is not tolerance. God Judges us all in the end Not you….Not me.

    • You just lumped all liberals into a pile you judged as intolerant. John P’s pile includes everyone we should love, which is EVERYONE, which you apparently think this is “bad”. Hmm, not sure I follow you.

    • John (moron) not God living, fearing and uttering the words God gives him John P.
      Where did you get that ridiculous assumption that the woman who started planned parenthood wanted to eliminate our African-American children., you are absurd beyond absurd, so anything else you sputter is to be forgotten totally..Get a grip on reality man., oh you have obviously The Reality Star..oops…

      • Bob, just to let you know, this John to whom you responded is a troll who writes a lot of garbage without checking his facts. Of course, a troll who is presented with evidence, facts, and truth, usually is not persuaded by them but clings to prejudice.

        Here is a statement by the Pulitzer Prize-winning, nonpartisan Politifact on Margaret Sanger,


        Snopes.com also points out actual facts:


      • Do a little research on Margaret Sanger.

        Abortion is the friend of racism because it dirproportionately targets black people.

        JohnP is a liar. We don’t and can’t want to save just the straight white babies. Our compassion for the unborn extends to them all.

        He is supporting the unjust killing of the black and gay babies.

        • “Do a little research on Margaret Sanger.

          Abortion is the friend of racism because it disproportionately targets black people.”

          Okay. I get it. But have you ever heard of doing the right thing for the wrong reason? And really, do you think the pro-life lobby today is as race based as it was in Sanger’s time?

          From what I have been able to observe, it is young White women who are accessing abortion services most often. It is not common in the African American communities who are still largely driven by the Black churches.

          Also the thing is this: Telling a pregnant woman that she has no choice but to bear the child is barbaric in the extreme considering how she may have become pregnant.

            • I’m not sure if I’d agree with this article. The research is done by the CDC which ONLY surveyed governmental health agencies. Therefore, if you say African-American women are 5 times more likely to receive an abortion at one of these clinics than White women I’d agree. But please know there are far more people having abortions in private clinics were self-reporting is not necessary. Since mandatory reporting is not required in every State and people who have the means will travel to ensure anonymity—the actual numbers will always be inaccurate. It’s important to know who is behind the article and what agenda/message/stereotype they would like to continue.

              • It’s The Atlantic. Not exactly known as a bastion of conservative thought. They’re a pretty well respected bunch. It’s not like it’s an article from Brietbart.

                Either way, my point is that the statistics show it’s not a white problem, which is what the post I replied to seemed to imply.

          • AMEN! Notice the ratio of MEN that are anti abortion over the WOMEN!! [if you’re against abortion…..don’t HAVE one!]DUH!

            • “No vagina? No opinion,” as Rachel Green said to Ross Geller during an episode fo Friends.

              No man should be allowed to vote on the issue of a woman’s right to choose her own lot in life.

              • “The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men. It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships. It has aggravated the derogation of the father’s role in an increasingly fatherless society. It has portrayed the greatest of gifts–a child–as a competitor, an intrusion and an inconvenience. It has nominally accorded mothers unfettered dominion over the dependent lives of their physically dependent sons and daughters. And, in granting this unconscionable power, it has exposed many women to unjust and selfish demands from their husbands or other sexual partners.”

                ― Mother Teresa

                • An unimpressive person to cite. She had no more business being canonized than did Fr Junipero Sierra>

                  As for your ridiculous question am I sola scriptura. Of course not. You know perfectly well that I am Episcopal.

    • How right you are John.

      Liberals are the most intolerant and bigoted of them all.

      You simply cannot disagree with a liberal without being labeled a “racist.”

      I think the reason for their intolerance and unreasonableness is that whether they know it or not, they embrace evil, and then candy coat it with platitudes. They are all in for killing 3,000 babies every day, but then vilify all their opposition and their arguments with false racist accusations if a cop makes a mistake.

      • It is exactly this sort of name-calling and stereotyping not caring whom you hurt with your words is why you, Benny, are a troll.

        • I certainly was not hurt by his words… Gloriamarie are you a member of the cult-of-outrage (a class of perpetually offended broken hearts)? Benny did not name call, he mentioned an unfairness/hypocrisy that he observes… that occurs when any voiced opposition to the liberal ideology and the ideology of progressivism is met with broad ‘-phobia’ and ‘-ist’ accusations as a culturally accepted means to discredit the individual rather than the idea.

    • Planned Parenthood Founder, Eugenicist Margaret Sanger [1879-1966] had this to say about:
      [ Immigrants]
      ‘…they are reckless breeders , human beings that should have never been born.’
      [Birth Control/Abortion]
      ‘…is nothing less and nothing more that weeding out the unfit.’
      [Large Families]
      ‘..the most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it.’

      Today, Planned Parenthood will accept $$$ from donors that want to help abort… ‘ black babies, because there are too many of them in Tulsa, OK.’

      Listen to phone conversation.


      [‘Panned Parenthood and Race Youtube’]

      • Paul Inberea:

        I listened to that phone call, and I’d like to propose a possibility to you.

        Did it ever occur to you that Planned Parenthood trains its office staff to accept donations whatever the caller says they are for?

        Callers who know Margaret Sanger’s history may very well offer to make donations to abort Black children. What makes you think that the executives at PP haven’t told their office people, “TAKE THE MONEY. No matter WHAT the caller says it is for, SAY YES AND THANK YOU AND TAKE THE MONEY??”

        It certainly makes more sense than what you are proposing, because if PP really were in the business of accepting money to abort Black babies they would have been put out of business years ago.