The Christian Right Was Right

I confess that I was dead wrong about this. I have to hand it to the Christian Right, they knew what the heck they were talking about all this time. They knew this was going to happen and predicted it with astounding accuracy, over and over again.
For decades they tried to tell us that the sky was falling, that devils were walking among us, that the end was so very nigh. For years and years they lamented the approaching devastation and tried to prepare us like good prophets do. They pounded their pulpits with ferocity and thumped their Bibles with abandon, forecasting this country’s certain doom—and we didn’t listen. We rolled our eyes and dismissed them as out-of-touch, hypocritical, religious zealots whose hold on reality was tenuous at best. And yet, they had it right all along.
It turns out that every single one of their raw-throated, brimstone-breathing prophecies were true:
That the wolves would come in sheep’s clothing to devour the innocent.
That there would be a twisting of the Scriptures to justify vile evil of every kind.
That people would do what was right in their own eyes and make themselves into the very God they most worshiped.
That money and power and pride would be too seductive to avoid for far too many.

That the Church was in danger of being polluted to the point of death.
That the least of these would be discarded and brutalized.
That good people would be preyed upon by opportunistic monsters.
These sage prognosticators had everything about the approaching disaster correct—except its source.
They neglected to predict the actual genesis of this great decimation. Because it wouldn’t be the Gays or the Muslims or the Atheists or celebrities or street people or tattooed women or sexually active teenagers as they’d so foretold. It wouldn’t be transgender men lurking in bathrooms, or brown-skinned suicide bombers from some distant cave, or any of the countless boogeymen they told us were hiding in the shadows to bring terror. No, the encroaching danger was a whole lot closer than all that. 
For years The far Christian Right has been warning us about Godless hordes coming to destroy America and it turns out this was true—it’s just that the words were autobiographical.
As a lifelong Christian I’ve had a sick sense of déjà vu watching politicians professing to be followers of Jesus dismantling every program designed to care for the vulnerable and the hurting, seeing the way the powerful are being awarded greater power, watching empathy vanishing and hatred skyrocketing. I’ve heard this story a million times before; proclaimed on Sunday mornings from pulpits, unleashed in religious social media rants, and shouted through bullhorns on street corners. I knew this was coming, or at least I should have. We all should have. These harbingers of doom were absolutely right to warn us—and ironically they were the very ones they were warning us about. In the sickest kind of self-fulfilling prophecy, they were the plague of these days that they said would come.
It would be the preachers and the evangelists abandoning the heart of Jesus, perverting the words of the Bible for their agenda, selling their souls for a high place overlooking the world. They would be the very false prophets they told us that we should like hell run from. These supposed disciples of Jesus would be the ones to betray him with a kiss and send him to a bloody, undignified end.
Yes, the Christian Right was right, evil was going to run amok through the world and terrorize the lives of ordinary people and make a mockery of God. And that is what it is surely doing in these days.
I owe them an apology.
I should have believed them.
I once was blind, and now I see.

552 thoughts on “The Christian Right Was Right

    • They did say that there would be a false prophet who would come in God’s name…
      Pretending to be godly, but truly being evil.

      • Anyone with an eye and a single functioning brain cell could see that the current Republican inhabitant of the White House was NONE of what he said he was. He has lived the past decades in front of the damned cameras, for pity’s sake! How blind, hateful, and stupid can people be?

        • Robin Lee Horne, brilliant brilliant brilliant. I ask that same question very single flipping day and always come up with the exact same answer.

          He represents all of the bigotry, malice, prejudice, racism that is part and parcel of the people who voted for him. We see examples of this in every attack made on John P. Pure vitriol.

          • And what of our Vice President? He lives in the shadows of President Trump? What will be of him for endorsing and supporting such a man.

        • Robin, if you think Trump voters were “blind” and/or “stupid,” then wouldn’t that allow for the possibility of not being “hateful”?

          If they were too blind or stupid to see that Trump is Satan and his appointees selected from his legion of demons, then they aren’t culpable for being “hateful.”

          Sadly, though, I would have to fall under your judgement and be cast into the “hateful” basket, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, because I’m not stupid and voted for Trump with my eyes wide open.

          • Clearly this will come as a shock to you, but you do not get to decide if you are “hateful”. The bigotry, racism, ignorance, lies and anger expressed by Trump voters was indeed hateful, we all saw it and we all still see it. Just like we see yours trying to take over someone else’s blog and cast your judgment and values upon people you see as wrong.

            • I don’t get to decide if I’m hateful but YOU do.

              What if I don’t agree with it? What if others don’t agree with it?

              Is that an opinion or an infallible proclamation?

              • It is a reaction to your hateful behavior. When a person acts in a hateful manner, speaks in a hateful manner, that person is going to be called out on it.

                The choice is either self-examination and repentance or denial, which is self-deceit, aka lying to one’s self.

                It’s quite clear in which category you fall, Joe. You are the single most cited reason people give me when they sign up for Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff. The way you choose to post has caused over eighty people to sign up since Thursday.

                One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


              • Please check out the Popes’ views on EVERYTHING your candidate stands for. Then ask yourself, does my loyalty go to Trump or my religion. They are polar opposites. A vote for Trump is a vote against Catholicism. You are not writing from a “Catholic perspective”.

                • Are you a Catholic? Do you think Catholics have a mandate from the Pope to vote for Democrats? They don’t because the Pope has no such authority.

                  My first priority when I vote is the basic right to live. Trump is for that and Clinton was not. It was an easy choice to make.

                  • ACP, I used to be a “Single-Issue-Voter” also… then I realized that I couldn’t justify all of the *other* evils supported by your favourite candidate and resolved to work for life in other venues.

                    I think it’s worse than shameful when Christians abdicated the needs of many, many, many marginalized people in favor of a mysogynist, racist, adulterous, deceitful and untenable man in the hopes of a supreme court nominee. As we watch affordable and accessible health care being stripped away, I wonder now how many “pro-life” voters will realize that the certain death of their neighbors without access to health care is now on *their heads*…

                    • You are delusional! Affordable Health Care? I was forced into disability back in 1998 when a door on my Schwann’s truck hit me in the head and broke my neck. I lived in a wheel chair for more than three years while I fought to get out of it. I have many scars and stitches from getting out and falling. But that was the easy part. I had received what I rightfully paid for, Disability Insurance that the government forced me to buy. I also bought another “Disability policy” that I was talked into by one of my bosses. $1.17 a week. Now, I’m glad I did. My list of medications as you can imagine is extensive. 23 in total. At one point, I was paying about $2600 a month for them and then we had a health care bill that kicked in under George Bush. It dropped to about $780 a month because I was able then to get generics for the most part, that were just $8. each. Then welcome ObamaCare. My doctors visits doubled in cost, my meds have jumped to more than $1800 a month and the generics that I paid $8 for are now $48 to $466 a month for some of them. Many of the “Necessary for life” drugs are taken off the list of approved medicines now. Many, like the Pradaxa are jumped up to tier 1 and cost more than $400 for a months supply. Morphine that I take three times a day jumped from $8 a month to $166. And the $8 generic Percocet are $107. All because there are people who use the E.R. like it’s their personal doctors office and get their meds for free. No one can afford to give free medical to everyone. Even Moon Beam Governor Jerry Brown in California wanted a study to find the cost of single payer health care in California. The cost? An additional $400 Billion dollars. They don’t have it and can’t get it. You can’t double the taxes on every business and all of your citizens to do it, or if you do, the care you will receive will be that of third world countries. The left lives in a dream land utopia where rainbows and lollipops are out there for everyone, but it is just fantasy land in there minds. There is not enough money to give half of the country all the free stuff they want and make the other half pay for it…

                    • Susan, are you responding to me or to “A Catholic Perspective” above? If you replied to me, what do you disagree with?

                  • Interesting, because I think that neither candidate’s position actually upholds the Catholic belief that God is the author of life. If you allow for abortion in some cases, as Trump does, you are allowing abortion and thus eliminating the right to life for some of the unborn.

              • well joe, considering how often your side declares any criticism of Christianity, the United States, etc to be “anti-Christian hate” or “that person hates the United States, etc”

                Do you really think you and yours are innocent victims?

              • If we’re using the words and teachings of Jesus as the measure, then I suppose it’s an infallible proclamation.

              • I too am catholic all you have to ask. What is the Popes view of Trump to realize what kind of man Trump is? Hate is blinding and often looking in a mirror is not enough. You have step out of your self and look from the outside to see it.

            • Sandi Saunders I’ll tell you the sad part Sandi,is that the very people you accuse of all of bigotry,racism,ignorance,lies yourself are exactly what you have just described.but your to dumb to see your own failings,and so you judge other falsly,and try and walk away with your little halo in place,thinking you are free and clear in all of your self righteousness,if we don’t get to decide who is hateful,then who does,a selfrighteous bigot like you,well I personaly reject your wrong assessment of me and others,I reject you false testimony,it is not of God and reject it.

              • Oh, please, JR, there’s more projection in your statement than at a multiplex. How, exactly, have people on the left been guilty of bigotry, hate, or any of those things? Do you have any examples? I certainly have a ton of examples of bigotry and hate from Trump and his supporters, as well as from fundamentalist Christians, some of which have happened to me directly.

                Also, please, do everyone a favor and take a writing course. I had to read that paragraph four times to figure out what you said between the bad punctuation, run-on sentences, and bad spelling. Not trying to be mean, per se, just saying. <3

              • Reject away, you are not the judge I am working on pleasing. Neither is anyone else.

                I freely admit my sins, failings and flaws but no, I am not a bigot, I am not racist, I am clearly not ignorant, and I do not lie. My daily sins are stubbornness, lack of forgiveness, anger and impatience.

                I may well be “dumb” but I have never expressed the hate or malevolence the Trump supporters who call themselves Christian have.

                Since sin is not ranked in my Bible, I am aware that my sins do not make me better because they are not your sins, but I am not too “dumb” to see my own failings at all.

                I told the truth, if you or anyone else feels “judged” that is on you.

                We do get to decide who is hateful, that is why I rejected him claiming he and people like you are not, when you clearly are. No one “of God” and “walking with Jesus” posts as you do. That is just not how this works.

                • To those who would like to escape the vitriol such as this example above by jrhunt and experience the blessings of a peaceful place where there is no acrimony…

                  One can’t help but notice the many voices of those who are disillusioned by their experiences in various churches in the USA. Hard not to be, really, if one is a critical thinker. Hard not to be when one is a caring, compassionate, tender person.

Refuge is offered in the Facebook group ”Celebrate What Christians Have in Common” where a daily buffet is spread of Asceticism and art, cartoons and quotes, comics and contemplation, memes and meditations, music and musings, photographs and prayers, just about anything that is one of the many voices from the many flavors of Christianity.

                  There is one discipline required of all who join: one must not utter a negative word because this space is a refuge, a respite, a place of peace and quiet. If one chooses to engage in discussion one may only write about one can affirm in the selection. No arguments, no vitriolic words, no spammers and trolls will be tolerated,

Please come and celebrate what Christians have in common and let us together remember our faith is based upon God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit and not the actions and choices of frail, sinful human beings.


              • To those who would like to escape the vitriol such as this example above by jrhunt and act in constructive and positive ways to counteract such a POV…

                One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


          • I did not vote for Trump and never will. However, I see what point you are making. The biggest problem I have with being aligned with those against Trump is the tendency to lump everyone in the same barrel and condemn them all. I see bullying on both sides but I hear very few soft voices wanting reason and civility. Even though I am against the Republican agenda for so many reasons, some people had very legitimate reasons for doing so. I had some issues with Obama and Clinton but I supported both of them and I don’t want to be called crazy for doing so. My issue with the Christian right , especially in the big mega independent churches, is a sad lack of solid theology. From your Catholic tradition the writings from the wealth of Catholic theologians has brought different voices to the faith and made it stronger. Many of these “Christian right” churches have a belief structure that is totally based on the founder and main minister. Dissenters can be kicked out. Many of the churches support prosperity gospel which is in complete disagreement with the teaching of Jesus Christ. Actually what I really believe is prosperity gospel is heresy. Often the minister and his family own the land and building and the congregation pays the mortgage. I know of cases where the minister has sold the property and buildings without consulting the congregation and took the money and moved on. Following in the steps of the Christ is not easy. We need good solid guides and teachers. Not people who are more interested in the coffers. My best Bible studies have been with Jesuits and Benedictines. I wish you well. Peace be with you.

            • Thanks you for being reasonable De. It’s frustrating that fellow Christians cannot at least extend the benefit of the doubt as we can towards them.

              A church that’s “pastor centered” is not a good idea. I don’t know anything about a “prosperity gospel.” I would have thought that was just TV stuff like from Reverend Dollar. (Funny enough, that’s his real name).

              • Donald Trump grew up attending the Marble Colligiate hutch, where the minister wasNorman Vincent Peale, who preached a gospel of prosperity

              • A Catholic Perspective,You say a church that is Pastor centered is not a good Idea,and that coming from a catholic,who’s church are always Pastor or Pope centered,I don’t claim to be a Christian simply because Christianity including Catholicism is a false religious system,and although I agree the prosperty gospel is a false Gospel,they certainly no worse than the doctrines of the catholic church,who have so perverted the scriptures,that a Jewish scholar couldn’t recognize the scriptures,you people have no right to critize anyone until you get the log jam out of your eyes,same goes for the selfrighteous liberals,who are enough to make a billygoat puke.

                  • Sandi Saunders I said Liberals sweet thing,you need to learn to read,I’m surprised Sandi,you liberals call everyone else every name in the book,thinking your selves to be wise,you only prove your self to be morons.

                    • Who, in their right mind, thinks they call out people for calling “everyone else every name in the book” by calling them names? Do you think you are “wise”? Do you think you are representing conservative Republicans in a positive way? I will offer you a hint, you are not. But you are absolutely proving we are right.

                    • Someone seems to have overlooked every single Bible verse that says what happened to someone who utters nastiness as does jrhunt.

                      And, really, jrhunt, please avail yourself of one of the many free grammar and spell checks because without some commas, it’s really hard to make sense of what you are saying.

                      One can’t help but notice the many voices of those who are disillusioned by their experiences in various churches in the USA. Hard not to be, really, if one is a critical thinker. Hard not to be when one is a caring, compassionate, tender person.

Refuge is offered in the Facebook group ”Celebrate What Christians Have in Common” where a daily buffet is spread of Asceticism and art, cartoons and quotes, comics and contemplation, memes and meditations, music and musings, photographs and prayers, just about anything that is one of the many voices from the many flavors of Christianity.

                      There is one discipline required of all who join: one must not utter a negative word because this space is a refuge, a respite, a place of peace and quiet. If one chooses to engage in discussion one may only write about one can affirm in the selection. No arguments, no vitriolic words, no spammers and trolls will be tolerated,

Please come and celebrate what Christians have in common and let us together remember our faith is based upon God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit and not the actions and choices of frail, sinful human beings.


                • Please go away until you can write something that makes sense.

                  As I tell the GED students I tutor, the reason you want to get grammar, punctuation, and spelling right is not just because there are rules for usage but because you want people to understand what you write.

          • Are you just wishful, rather than evil? Many people fall for the stories the greedy tell us. I think a good many people who are in charge especially republicans are greedy devils. They brainwash a lot of people into thinking that we are being stolen from by the poor, elderly and even children. Civilized people take care and help each other.

            Do you think you will pay less taxes because the republicans want to cut spending on the most vulnerable amongst us. Your taxes won’t go down unless you are a greedy multi million who truest wants for nothing except more money and more servants.

            • Sheryl are you just nuts,or are you drunk or something,its amazing how a hypocrite like you liberals try to judge a Republican as a greedy devil,you should know all about devils Sheryl,sense they are liberals best friends,at least republicans stand for something,most are not killing their unborn in the womb,you have bought in to the lies of the liberals about taxes and greed,liberals are vilest greedest people who ever lived,this is not about taxes,its about not losing out country to Muslims and illegal aliens because of liberal immigration policy,we don’t want to lose our borders and our identity and sovereignty,so stop with all of this selfrighteous nonsense,you are not one notch above anyone else.

              • May God have mercy and help you see that you need help. Your hate is clearly eating you up and seeking God might be the balm your angry, ignorant soul needs. You should not be here castigating people of faith who are trying to remain decent in the face of your foolish attacks. But you are helping prove the stereotype to be for a reason. Frankly, almost every person here is clearly several notches above you. You are literally vile. No wonder you like Trump.

                FYI, Republicans have abortions too. So do Christians. Those are simply facts.

                • I love your responses, Sandi. You clearly know what you’re talking about, and he’s just repeating the Trump message. Kudos to you for not really taking his bait. <3

                • Sandi, I agree with you. jrhunt is in desperate need of help.

                  An easily verifiable fact is the truth that when Democrats are in office the abortion rate decreases. An easily verifiable fact is that when Republicans are in office, the abortion rate increases.

                  Of course, Dems are in favor of birth control and the GOP isn’t but men will still want women to put out, regardless of contraceptive protection.

                  Oh, and without it, the number if people with STDs increases. Forty percent of the work of Planned Parenthood is screening and treating men and women for and with STDs.

                  • Isn’t that the truth! And if a woman gets pregnant, or gets an STD, it’s her fault for “not keeping her legs shut”, but if a woman doesn’t put out, then she’s a “prude”. Double standard much? And we won’t even get into sexual harassment, sexual assault, or rape, which all also seem to be the woman’s fault now, too, because we “dressed inappropriately”, or “led a man on”. Ugh. It’s exasperating!

                    • Caitlyn Anne, “exasperating” is truly the word.

                      Clearly, the Christian Right and the GOP want us women to be Stepford women.

              • My only response to spew such as this is to turn my back on this kind of thinking and engage in constructive, positive actions that will, eventually, win out against the bigotry and prejudice.

                One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


              • Something I love reminding myself about every day is that there are people who follow Jesus who are examples of caring, compassion, generosity, gentleness, and kindness. It is challenging to choose to be such a person because it is hard to withstand the kneejerk temptation to respond in kind, trying to hurt another person as much as jrhunt seems to be trying to hurt people.

                One can’t help but notice the many voices of those who are disillusioned by their experiences in various churches in the USA. Hard not to be, really, if one is a critical thinker. Hard not to be when one is a caring, compassionate, tender person.

Refuge is offered in the Facebook group ”Celebrate What Christians Have in Common” where a daily buffet is spread of Asceticism and art, cartoons and quotes, comics and contemplation, memes and meditations, music and musings, photographs and prayers, just about anything that is one of the many voices from the many flavors of Christianity.

                There is one discipline required of all who join: one must not utter a negative word because this space is a refuge, a respite, a place of peace and quiet. If one chooses to engage in discussion one may only write about one can affirm in the selection. No arguments, no vitriolic words, no spammers and trolls will be tolerated,

Please come and celebrate what Christians have in common and let us together remember our faith is based upon God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit and not the actions and choices of frail, sinful human beings.


          • It is entirely possible to be stupid, blind and hateful. There are literally millions of examples of that in the USA, given the results of the last election for president.

          • If this is a Cahtolic perspective, it ilustrates why I left the church so long ago. If you aren’t stupid, then I don’t know what is left, other than hatefulness or willful ignorance. Or both.

          • Yes, they are hateful. They listened Trump tirade againsts Mexicans first, then the Muslims, against women, then the blacks. They listened about “carpet bombing” countries and stealing their resources. Isn’t that hateful? They still approved, and voted him. How hateful, revolting can they be?

        • But it said it was supposed to be happening that way…so if you know, then you will owe who to be with… never mind the gossip. Stay with what you believe. Remember you can not see the true love, let it be your heart………

        • Robin Lee Horne What about the stinking crap you people supported,were you able to see through their BS like you claim you do with Donald Trump,if you can’t see how vile they are,why should anyone believe you know anything about trump,you voted for A Muslims and barked about it for eight long years,and was to stupid to see that he was,and then a long come Hillary Clinton the vilest lying thief in the last god only knows how many years,and then try to tell us how wise you are,sorry it just ain’t working Robin,you are known by you good fruit,and you bad fruit,the fruit of liberalism is all bad because its a bad tree and can not produce good fruit,its impossible,but so is conservatism,it produces little of value as well,both are all talk.

          • You need professional help. Stop commenting. It isn’t funny anymore. Seriously, stop using so much meth, booze, and crack, and maybe your paranoid delusions will go away.

            • Yes, this person really does need help. I have discovered two email addresses for John P. A bunch of us need to write him and urge him to contact those who can use the IP address used by jrhunt to locate him and have the local police assess how much of a danger this person might be to self and/or others.

              The degree of anger, hatred, and cognitive dissonance is worrisome to me. I am a person who cares very much about the well-being of others.

              As I certainly don’t want to violate John P’s privacy and post the email addresses here,
              and I don’t want to violate my own privacy and post my email address here, I can think of two ways to make his info available.

              The simplest way is to “friend” me on FB, making sure you tell me what identity you use here on the blog.

              The second way is to join, if you haven’t, my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, and again you can PM as a member of that group.

              Please, we must get help for jrhunt before it is too late.

              One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


          • Maybe at some point you will realize you too are “known by you good fruit,and you bad fruit” because yours is rotten and stinking and you have no ground to stand on.

          • Vitriol and lies such as in the example above must be combatted:

            One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


        • HOUSE OF LIES

          By Jim Wallis 03-23-2017
          It wasn’t fake news and couldn’t be called that; we all watched it together.

          FBI Director James B. Comey, testifying before the House Intelligence Committee, said that neither the FBI or the Justice Department had any information that President Barack Obama ever ordered Donald Trump’s phones tapped at Trump Tower. “I have no information that supports those tweets,” Comey said.

          In “those tweets” in the early hours of March 4, the sitting president of the United States lied, accusing his predecessor of a serious crime with no justification or evidence for the accusation.

          Anyone can get things wrong; many presidents have gotten things wrong. Lying must also contain intent. And behind Trump’s continual falsehoods is intent: changing the facts with “alternative facts” and conspiracy theories that support him, his agenda, and his brand.

          In a New York Times op-ed the day after Comey’s testimony, David Leonhardt made the distinction: George W. Bush thought that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and was wrong; Barack Obama thought people would be able to keep their current health insurance program if they wanted, which also turned out to be wrong.

          “They made careless statements that proved to be false (and they deserved much of the criticism they got),” Leonhardt writes. “But the current President of the United States lies. He lies in ways that no American politician has before. He has lied about, among other things, Obama’s birthplace, John Kennedy’s assassination, Sept. 11, the Iraq War, ISIS, NATO, military veterans, Mexican immigrants, anti-Semitic attacks, the unemployment rate, the murder rate, the Electoral College, voter fraud, and his groping of women.”

          Very alarmingly, most of the readers of this column, and probably even their children, could easily add many more Trump lies to the list: the size of his inauguration crowd, the size of his victory, the size of his wealth, the size of his business successes, and insults his opponents and anyone who dares to challenge him — as Trump has made a habit out of bullying his way through life.

          Then there are the many facts that Donald Trump refuses to disclose — like his tax returns. And, of course, with the facts of Trump’s financial life hidden, he can create his own facts, to protect his personal financial interests — even if they conflict with the national interest.

          Donald Trump and his team have also consistently repeated that he and they have nothing to do with Russia, have no serious business interests or history there, had no relationships with Russian foreign operatives who tried to influence the American election in his favor, and that the Russians had no impact in their interference in the United States 2016 election. Trump says, “Russia is fake news.”

          But Comey says otherwise. The FBI director made the extraordinary announcement this week that an investigation is underway to see whether members of the Trump campaign coordinated with Russia to influence the 2016 election. Comey went on to say, “As with any counterintelligence investigation, this will also include an assessment of whether any crimes were committed.”

          Please

          • And dollars to donuts they will continue to defend their choice as the right one and Trump et al action as the right course. But they put their faith first?

            • Sandi Saunders That must mean you voted for Hillary Clinton,and you want to question other peoples mentality,she is the vilest,lyingest,most dishonest person who ever ran for President,this show us with out a doubt what depth of a hypocrite you really are,only a blind nutbag would have voted for a low buzzard like her,are you from California or New York.

              • Really? So all the lies Trump has told, about his ties with Russia, his flip-flopping on abortion, his support for the Iraq war, his business dealings, his bankruptcies, his marriages, his treatment of his employees, his use of undocumented workers as labor, Obama wiretapping Trump Tower, is all of that okay?

                And what, exactly, has Clinton lied about? If you say emails, then you have to also take into account all the GOP politicians who use private email servers. If you say Benghazi, then you have no idea how the military or the State Department work. So please, provide examples.

                • All he has are the right-wing media fed lies and distortions that feed his hate. You cannot get rational thought out of an irrational mind. His level of discourse is right up there with Trump’s, vulgar, insulting and not in touch with fact.

                  • The sad thing is, he doesn’t even see it. He’s so blinded by his cognitive dissonance and hate that he just doesn’t see how his arguments just don’t make any sense.

                    • At first I thought it was his slender grasp on the use of the English language that was the problem, but as he continued to yammer on, repeating the propaganda and lies and insulting everyone in sight, it became abundantly clear that this poor soul needs professional help.

              • At this point I don’t think you are capable of deciding what anything “means” but I can assure you I did not fall for the vile con-man and his lies like you apparently did.

                Your posts would make any compassionate person question your mental state and pray for some peace for you.

                In any comparison, a rational person could see Trump is the one who is the vilest most dishonest person who ever ran for President, and that has been documented as fact.

                Which means, a rational person would have to conclude that shows us without a doubt the depth of your hypocrisy (as if there was any question!)

              • When one reads such filth as this (even mispelled filth), all I can do is invite people to take action against people who have allowed their heads to be filled with lies.

                One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


    • But what did they actually do about it? Cover up scientific fact? Vote in terrible people? Produce more children and contribute to over-consumption? Thumping Bibles isn’t enough but only hypocrisy if they feel the end of the world is coming.

  1. This is so sad, and so true. It’s been like a swell on the horizon since the christian right mobilized in 1979 to defeat Jimmy Carter. Now, the wave is breaking on our shores.

      • So true, nothing proves the Christian hypocrisy more thoroughly than their treatment of President Jimmy Carter. President Cater was and is as devout a servant of God as has ever been in the White House of this nation and still they insulted, despised and voted against him. They have not had any credibility since. In fact Trump proves they never did.

        • Which proves that being a Christian isn’t necessarily sufficient to be the leader of our country. He needed to be replaced by Reagan, the greatest President of modern history.

          I would prefer a Christian brain surgeon, but if I had the choice between a saintly Christian brain surgeon who was fresh out of medical school and a philandering brain surgeon who was experienced and never lost a patient, I think I’d go with the latter.

          The election wasn’t about who was the “best Christian,” or to elect a Sunday school teacher. (Not that I concede that Hillary was by any means a good Christian).

            • Of course Reagan was a Christian too.

              I think you know what I meant and that it made sense.

              We don’t have to choose an incompetent Christian over someone who is not a Christian but competent, in secular matters. I would prefer the competent person to be a Christian, however, and I think that is usually the case. The best Supreme Court Justices we have (and one we sadly lost) are Christians (and Catholic).

              • Oh, believe me, I know what you meant, we all do.

                Now you claim Carter was “incompetent” and that is why you did not support him, even though you claim your faith is first? You are rather pitiful.

                • Jimmy Carter was too good for the likes of him and that is the crux, it has nothing to do with his Christianity, it is all about control of women. If it were about his faith, then the adulterers would not be placed higher than a man of faith like Carter.

                  • Yes, you are very right. You have him pegged. The nerve of claiming “A Catholic Perspective” tells us the hubris and bullying he is obsessed with.

                  • Jimmy Carter was a failure as a president, but seems like a decent man. What does not liking Carter have to do with women? Why is the gender card being played?

                    Bill Clinton was a serial adulterer while in office. Did you demand him to resign? Did you want monogamous George H W Bush back because Clinton couldn’t keep his zipper up?

                    • ACP, you said:

                      “Bill Clinton was a serial adulterer while in office. Did you demand him to resign?”

                      Do you not see the *irony* that you voted for DT, a confirmed serial adulterer? And that, apparently, you also overlooked DT’s own words and actions of misogyny and sexual assault toward women?

                    • Oh, he sees it, he knows it, he will just never admit it. He still thinks Trump is gonna save some little babies and that is all that matters to him. Ask him what he is doing to save little babies though.

                  • Kathleen B Jimmy Carter was not what you think he is,he wasn’t then and he isn’t now,he was a liberal politician who called himself a Christian,but Biblical ethics was second to his Political ethics,he was a poor President and is an even poorer Believer,it about the things you do, not just the things you say,Carters mind set was of a liberal politician,just talking about his Christian leanings and beliefs,is not the standard we are to look for,what I look for and is very rare in our society,is do they Obey the Moral laws as described in the Bible,from that standard hardly anyone would qualify to be President,because 90% or more make no attempt at all to keep Yahweh’s moral laws,so we are left trying to decern as best we can who will do the better job,and its at best a mine field we all have to trudge through,my first thought in the last election was not to vote at all,but I could not set back and see this lying dishonest person Hillary Clinton win the election,so I voted against her,not for him as much as against her,trump will not destroy the place like she would have,he may be ignorant of political things,but she is just plain evil in my judgment,to bad you are as blind as she is,but that what happens when the blind lead the blind,they both fall into the ditch.If you believe Carter or Clinton and Obama are persons of faith,they are not,they are just people who are deceived and deluded by the false ideology of liberalism.

                    • So being married multiple times, lying about wiretaps, lying about ties to hostile governments, lying about your businesses, making crude statements about women, openly making vile statements about Hispanics, is that all somehow moral now? Oh, that’s right, I forgot, it’s a man saying it, and that’s okay, right

                      Sweetie, neither you or anyone else who support Trump at this point have any ground upon which to talk about morality. You gave that up the moment Trump uttered the phrase, “grab her by the pu**y”.

                    • You are a sick man and you need to seek professional help. No one here can help you. We would not even know where to start. We cannot respect someone who posts the lies and insults you do and yet claims other people are the problem. You judge and whine about being judged, you insult then whine about being insulted and you are flat out lying about people we know are not what you describe.

                      Your pitiful excuse for supporting Trump will bite you as he is already proven to be a puppet of Russia and a deeply disturbed liar. Immorality? He is the poster child and you speak of others? You need to clean your own house and mind before you start throwing out such crazed comments about other people you clearly do not know. Seek help, this CANNOT be the first time you have been told that.

                    • If I knew where this person lived, I would contact the police there and recommend they evaluate him for a 5150, a 72 hour police ordered psychiatric evaluation to see if this person is a risk to him/herself and/or others.

                      Surely this kind of anger must also express itself in abuse of the people around this person and I find I am very worried for them.

                      If you are as appalled by the vile things said above, there is a place where we can act for the good and combat such cognitive dissonance.

                      One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


                    • JRHunt you have a very narrow understanding of Biblical Ethics, and what it means to be a believer. Indeed, you seem to define both in terms of your definition alone and then use that to knock Carter, H.R.Clinton, and Obama, over as straw figures.

                      Both the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly referred to as the Old Testament by Christians) and the Christian New Testament proclaim broader standards for ethics than mere rule following or the following of moral laws. Indeed, they tie belief and ethics together in the care for the poor, those most in need, the vulnerable, those who are sick, strangers, aliens, outcasts, and the incarcerated. Biblical Ethics and belief are tied together with steadfast pursuit of justice, a justice rooted not in my rights, but in the gracious generosity of God who has given us everything even life itself.

                      Biblical Ethics and belief starts with humility, knowing God’s great love and gifts to us and then evokes in us the call to unstinting devotion in giving that love back to God and all of humanity with whom we share this planet.

                      Carter, H.R.Clinton, and Obama, have all been active in Christian faith communities. The evidence suggests the current occupant of the White House has not been consistently active in a faith community since his Confirmation. Though he claims to be Presbyterian, no church has found a record of him being on their active or inactive register. His behavior in and out of office shows neither moral competence nor any sort of Biblical Ethic (by your measure or mine).

                      You may not appreciate the application of Biblical Ethics and belief from the Left, but I would suggest you read Joshua, Judges, 1 & 2 Kings, 1 & 2 Samuel, Amos, Micah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Matthew 25 before you dismiss those voices.


          • Reagan. The greatest American President.

            Are you on drugs?

            Reagan broke the unions, stopped regulating Wall Street (Remember “Greed is Good, junk bonds, corporate raiders)? These attitudes and forces are what sent profitable US factories overseas because it wasn’t enough profit for Wall Street. No, Wall Street wanted to bring down the US middle class because they wanted to pay slave wages.
            Well, here we are in 2017, Mission Accomplished .

            Reagan continued the Racist Southern Strategy of Nixon. He started his fall campaign in 80 in Philadelphia, MS. The county that had the most rabid KKK groups, where the 3 civil rights workers were tortured and killed. Invented the “welfare queen” and “young buck” memes.

            Funded death squads in Central American that killed tens of thousands, including slaughter of entire villages.

            Traded arms for hostages to Iran.

            133 of his appointees resigned for corruption or malfeasance, and many went to jail. That’s a record in US history.

            It also wasn’t very Christian of him to do little about the AIDS epidemic while thousands died, until finally public pressure pushed him..

            • Jack, if ACP thinks Reagan was the best President, it’s probably because he likes all the things you point out.

              After all, he worships Trump.

            • He brought down the Soviet Union. He turned a failing economy around.

              He fired air traffic controllers who went on strike illegally.

              He kept our nation safe and we had peace through strength.

              Plus his character and goodness was obvious. He stands head and shoulders above all other presidents in the modern era. I don’t know about the distant past. Maybe Washington and Lincoln were better.

        • 100% agree. Carter and his wife have faithfully served the poor all over the world with compassion and generosity.

          For some reason he wasn’t re-elected, but he has been the best former President we have ever had.

  2. Thank you John, that is exactly what I see. To me those who scream the loudest, those who thump their Bibles for all to see, those who have closed minds and closed eyes to everything but themselves in their righteousness – “When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them.”

    We all know that there are millions more who quietly do wonderful works of goodness and love, not for attention but for their love of their God. Those are the ones I honor and am humbled by. There are angels among us.

    • Well expressed Joanne. Some of my closest Christian friends have bought in to all of this. They have become black and white only thinkers so there is no gray. It is as they say it is. However, as you point out, many are quietly doing the work of the Lord in the quietness of their days. Storing up treasures in Heaven. Let’s keep living out our faith in humility. God sees everything and will help us be patient even with those whom we disagree with in the family of God.

    • I wholly agree.

      Growing up in a Christian Right church I remember clearly hearing “A true Christian goes through life with blinders on. The look straight and blind themselves to the sun of the world.”

      At 16 I took a world religions class and quickly realized that this was wrong. A Christian should not blind themselves to the wrongs we see, but should love the sinners, as we all are. For this I was excommunicated from the church and even told by my father I was possessed. These people are confident in their hate they prevent the words they claim to follow.

      • Dear Artemismae:

        Even with auto-correct malfeasance, the meaning of your post is clear. I’m truly sorry for what you experienced at this sect. Methinks your last four words sum the situation perfectly.

        ‘…they claim to follow’


      • “Religion” is not of God!! For he is God!! Growing up in a Southern Baptist church, I got away from the church and my husband and I attend an Undenominational church! Strictly Bible reading and listening to our Pastor, and reading and studying the Bible; and praying in our own home!! Also praying for lost souls!! Man made churches forget about it, stupid rules. If you live by the word of God you know exactly what you need to do!!
        A divided Nation is wrong, and so is people judging Trump! Obama is not the last to hear from (that’s a no brainer)!! Apologizing to the right side – is apologizing to God!
        Why do you think Trump won? When everyone was against him – both sides of the ticket! Every left wing should be apologizing to God who made him!! God approved of him, and he was worthy enough to take the media by force!
        King David was merely a Shepherd boy; but he loved talking and singing to the One True God! And God made him a King!!
        My point, every left wing liberals will be talking to their Creator God who made Donald J. Trump a self-made business man a President!!

  3. agreed. it’s like watching a repeat of the Pharisees in real time, no doubt. And, like you, I am so broken by all the vitriol being spewed by folks from all corners. so very tired. I suppose the good news is that God is still God, and I am not. And I’m okay with that; meaning I still cling to the hope of His salvation and love for us all.

  4. Well done, John.

    Literalist believers attempt to persuade the rest of us that “Santa Claus is real” and most kids reach a point when they understand just who “Santa Claus” really is

  5. You are a genius. You speak truth in a very succinct way. This might be the best post yet. Keep shining the spotlight so that others will have the ears to hear and the eyes to see. Peace Love Resist

    • A “genius” at criticizing other Christians. A genius at demonizing Trump and anyone who voted for him. A genius at complaining and being against all those bad people out there. But what is he FOR?

      How does he help me overcome my addictions and my sins? How does he help me get to Heaven? How does he help me find peace?

      He’s made it very clear he hates Trump, Republicans, rich white people, people who voted for Trump, anyone who takes St. Paul literally, and the Religious Right, and seems to make that the theme of almost every post. But I can’t figure out and I have been searching in vain for the positive.

      We don’t dwell on all those bad people out there in my Church. It is very bizarre to me that his preaching is all about criticizing and tearing down anyone who isn’t a liberal Democrat. Is this really “genius”? Is this really what a preacher should be focused on?

      • It is about speaking the truth about what has happened to the evangelicals in this country. He is calling them out on the disconnect between their actions and what we as Christians should strive to be…which is to continually be more like Jesus. This power hungry prosperity gospel and lack of compassion for the exact people that Jesus reached out to is not acceptable. The author is stating that fact.

        • I’ve seen him trashing evangelicals and other Christians, especially if they are white (which is bizarre from someone claiming to be so concerned about not treating people according to skin color) ad nauseum. Over and over and over. I got the drill a long time ago.

          What is he FOR?

          How does one find Salvation? How does one overcome addiction to sin? How does one find peace? How does one forgive and be kind to all those bad people who voted for Trump? How can one endure and understand suffering?

          What is he FOR? Do you know?

          • Dios divino, todos ustedes que se creen perfectos piensan que los que votaron for presidente Trump
            somos diablos ? No señor, están
            equivocados, porque yo por ejemplo, respeto a mi Presidente
            porque el es el que verdaderamen
            te ama esta Nación y quiere hacer
            la respetada y amada otra vez.
            Una Nación no puede existir sin
            Law and Order. My language is not English. Please stop gramma
            tical correction.

            • Estoy de acuerdo.

              Entiendes el ingles suficiente para poder leer los mensajes escritos aqui?

              Que lastima que la mayoria de las personas aqui que se llaman cristianos odian otros cristianos que votaron para Trump. Me parece que ellos estan llenos de odio y Trump es una excusa para expresarlo.

              Beinvenida y espero que hagas mas mensajes aqui. Me gusta practicar utilizando espanol. Eres catolica?

          • One does not vote for a lying, corrupt, childish, inarticulate, ignorant conman to be president. That assuredly not the way to solve the problems of Sin.

            He supports the House health care plan which would throw 24 million off ACA/Medicaid, which will kill thousands.

            This is the exact opposite of what he promised his supporters multiple times during the campaign, that his healthcare would be for everyone, would be better AND cheaper than the ACA.

            All so the top 5% will get 600 Billion in tax cuts.

            Read Matthew 25: 31-46 and then tell me he is following the will of God.

        • Please don’t feed the troll. He comes here and constantly puts down both John and all of us that enjoy this blog. His responses are full of baiting those that disagree with him.

      • “How does he help me overcome my addictions and my sins? How does he help me get to Heaven? How does he help me find peace?”

        So, basically, it’s all about you.

        You’re not disproving his thesis here.

        As a Catholic, or any other kind of Christian, you should be finding your own peace, overcoming your own addictions and sins, getting to heaven on your own — between you and your priest.

        What have YOU done for anyone else lately? Furthermore, what have you done that you thought was positive and required by your religion, but that really, in perspective, had a negative effect on the person on the pointy end of it? Anything?

        If your concerns are all about overcoming your own sins and getting to heaven, not service to your fellow humanity, you might be part of the problem.

        • Those were rhetorical questions.

          The blog host claims to be a pastor.

          What does he teach? Do you know?

          Surely being a pastor is much more than being against Donald Trump and wringing his hands about an election that didn’t go his way, but I haven’t seen much more than that.

          So I repeat those questions again in a general sense. What does he say to help those addicted to their sins? How does he help people find salvation and eternal life? Etc….

          • How long have you been reading John’s blog? If you have read his earlier writings, you would know what he stands for – Christ’s love for all.

            • I’ve been reading this blog since some October. During this time I’ve seen nothing about love for all.. Just hatred of Trump and white Christians who don’t vote the way the blog host does. I haven’t seen a spec of love for Trump or for anyone who voted for him. His posts have all focused on how evil Trump and those who support him are.

              And that’s why I ask what he is FOR and if he ever is really a pastor because it’s very strange to me that a pastor would focus all his energies on being against a group of people to the point of demonizing them, and none on helping anyone find salvation or overcoming their sins and finding peace and sanctity.

              • You ought to read a lot further back to gain more perspective.

                A lot of us Christians from various faith communities (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican/Episcopal, and many of the protestant congregations) all feel in direct ways the impact of the last election and the blatant endorsement by prominent evangelical leaders for an oppressive political administration.

                That emphasis of standing up to the actions of modern Pharisees is important today, in direct ways for many marginalized groups. As Christians, we and John are obligated to speak and care for the least of these who are consciously neglected by those in power.

                Salvation is a walking out of our faith, not merely reciting a prayer. As a Catholic, I’m sure you know this; our salvation is wrought by Christ as we draw closer Him and do the good works of actively loving both God and our neighbor.

                This is not complaining. This blog is a voice like John the Baptist calling us to repentance, faithful service, justice and godly compassion.

                • One doesn’t need to dis the president and everyone who voted for him to to that. That’s not leading anyone closer to God. It’s just tempting them to be judgmental.

                  • One doesn’t need to praise Trump as the best president ever and that the vote was the best thing to ever happen to America, either, which is what you did Joe.

                    There many signs that this presidency is going to be a disaster for those who are disadvantaged and the most vulnerable.

                    Maybe people who voted for Trump did not think that their vote would cause direct harm to anyone– but when it does will you or the others wake up then?

                  • One doesn’t need to gloss over the very real hateful words and actions of our leaders either.

                    Giving the man a free pass because you think he will support your one passionate issue, while purposefully ignoring how much damage he and his staff are doing right now to the lives of millions, is irresponsible. As citizens, and as Christians, we are not called to blindly, glibly support all actions of leaders when we have the means to speak up against injustice, harm and uncharitable measures.

                    • I’ve known this since birth. Thanks to my long, lost father, a self-righteous Christian and a wanna be KKK member. Trust me, I felt the evil. Spent many years hating Christians before life broke me. God never gave up on me. Thank you Jesus for putting your loving people in my life and showing me the way. And, thank you John for bringing this to light.

      • I’ve read and reared the article and can fond no reference to “Trump.” Or “White People.” Or St. Paul. Or Liberal Democrats. His only reference to rich people appears to be this who have enriched themselves on the back of the hypocrisy he is calling out. And most importantly, there is no reference to his hatred.

        Maybe a comment on the article rather than a portmanteau objection to its creator that you could just as easily attach to any of his articles might make your argument, whatever it is, a little more persuasive.

      • To ignore evil is to condone it. He has written many articles about what he is for. He is for Christ. He is for “Love One Another”. He is for acceptance. He is for people who are marginalized. He is for feeding the hungry. He is for visiting the prisoners. He is for ….. I could go on and on.

        • That’s one reason I don’t shut up about abortion. We can’t condone this evil by ignoring it. But sadly there are some who call themselves Christians like the blog host who condone this evil by condoning it.

          Trump has promised to appoint pro-life Justices. That’s good.

          • There is a gigantic difference between claiming to be pro-life verses being anti abortion and you are anti abortion or you would be equally fighting for the end of the death penalty.

            • That’s your illogical logic, not mine. How can you equate a murderer with innocent life in the womb? How can you equate what is a trickle of deaths by execution compared to a daily flood of executions at Planned unParenthood and abortion mills?

              At any rate, I oppose the death penalty too. Am I good to go now? Will you now be pro-life too?

              • Just thought I’d give you an update… Over forty people joined Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff yesterday and another twelve were waiting for approval when I turned on the laptop this morning.

                It way be that the debate here is driving people to join because they want a place where they can do **something** in response to the evil that is this new administration.

                One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


            • Not only that, but they would also actually be concerned about the less fortunate once they actually have life outside the womb.

      • // We don’t dwell on all those bad people out there in my Church. It is very bizarre to me that his preaching is all about criticizing and tearing down anyone who isn’t a liberal Democrat. Is this really “genius”? Is this really what a preacher should be focused on? //

        As Christ did when He called the Pharisees snakes and vipers?

        As Christ did when He castigated the hypocrites who honor God with their mouths and not their hearts?

        As Christ did when He cast the moneylenders from the temple?

        As Christ did when He warned that those who loudly proclaim his name and then leave the least of His brethren to suffer would not enter the Kingdom?

        He surely seemed to dwell on the bad people out there. He surely seemed to think that hypocrisy and twisting His teachings should be called out.

        Why do you feel otherwise?

        • Ben, thank you. I fear you will not get any sort of a logical, rational, reasonable answer to your logical, rational, reasonable examples and question. But thank you for the citations and the question for which there is really only one answer. No one who calls themself by the name of Christ can feel otherwise and remain faithful to the Gospel.

          • Thank you, Joe ACP, for the eleventh new member before noon today. You are doing a great job promoting the membership in my group. Please do keep it up.

            One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


          • No, our host is NOT “is attacking the GOOD people” and that you can say that only proves you literally do not get it.

            The reason you “don’t shut up about abortion” is that it is a convenient weapon. Giving a woman control over her own body and reproduction is not “evil”. No one is “ignoring” anything except you. I will agree that it is sad that “some who call themselves Christians” like you, claim desperate people are evil for making the choice or that compassionate people are evil for supporting that right.

            Sure, “Trump has promised to appoint pro-life Justices” who will also be “for” many other things that hurt the poor and disenfranchised and you of course claim “That’s good” because you are a zealot who is not practicing love as God commanded.

            • OTOH, Sandi, the more JoeACP, and others rant here, the more people join my FB group.

              Three more since noon.

              One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


  6. I don’t feels a bit like your trying to sell me something. You always make great points, and your a gifted writer for sure, but perspective and historical sense this falls flat.
    I will read your book when it comes out.

    • Tommy Harris Both times you wrote “your” you actually meant “you’re.” Not sure what “…but perspective and historical sense this falls flat” means. Either you missed a punctuation mark or a word or two and sadly, what you were trying to convey got lost in the process. I’m interested in what you were trying to convey. Could you update your post, please?

      • Not sure your/you are/you’re ( pick one) interested in anything but being a bug!

        Like most of these comments, sincere but dumbfounded how we found ourselves in this type of situation.
        My question is : Hillary was a better choice?
        We find ourselves here not because Trump stole the election, but through a process of poor leadership and governing and it’s way too simply to throw a handful of scripture at it and call it ‘the end of times.’

        Then to pick the religious right out as the devil we knew, but now we know!
        Diagram that one for me!

        Look all I know is a Christian is someone that turns out to be one. I do trust my God to be big and hopefully to have a since of humor. This world is a crazy place getting crazier.

        With Trump, we don’t have to guess what he’s thinking..
        Something to be said for that.

        And please, no more grammatical correction.

        • No, Charles was the one who was busted. Serves him right. He’s been wrong about his “joe sightings” a million times.

            • It is laughable the number of aliases the person presently posting as A Catholic Perspective has used.

              He has even carried on conversations with people using different aliases and citing things he has said under a different alias.

              One has to wonder, does he really think we are all too stupid that we would fail to recognize his distinctive writing style and tone of voice, no matter how many times he changes it?

              Some of us have seen him change his identity so often, we catch him the first time he posts under a new identity. I am thinking it’s about the time he’ll retire this one, so let’s all be on the alert for the new one.

              • You have made Joe Catholic the Boogeyman to fear and watch out for. I think you give him too much credit. He doesn’t have that much imagination.

  7. Don’t beat yourself up, John. Jesus said that His crucifixtion was a fulfillment of prophecy, and warned his disciples of the signs of end times. Early Christian writers recount that the great strength of believers in the first century was rooted in their preparedness for Christ’s coming, even in their lifetimes. This is, of course, no excuse for apathy on our part today, rather, an impetus to discern the truth and do what is right. Is it different than any other time of persecution or godlessness? Perhaps we are different. Spoiled, over educated, lazy, acquisitive. We don’t have to be this way. Let each of us look at himself, not others. Vow not to spread the hate, the blame. Vow to love.
    Isn’t the alternative frightening?

    • I would be very surprised if he believed in the Resurrection, that Jesus is God incarnate, what the early Church Fathers said, or any of that old-fashioned stuff.

  8. Since my age reached double digits (which was looong ago) I’ve been actively avoiding Christians for their hypocrisy and self-congratulation. Now, at last, here is the voice I’ve always hoped to hear.

  9. I’ve felt like Cassandra for nearly 30 years now – seeing exactly what’s coming and where it’s coming from. And not being able to get people to believe me. You express it perfectly, John, as you always do. And I think that more people are starting to believe. Now that it’s all but too late.

  10. It is very difficult to disassociate myself from these people who have been my best friends and mentors through my infancy in Christ. How do I tell them that I no longer have the respect for them that I once had? That my eyes have been opened to their hypocrisy?

    • Just tell them straight up. If enough people start telling enough of them, some guy may wake up and say: “Oh my God. Look at the image we are sending out to people. We gotta quit this nonsense or we will go under.”

    • I wouldn’t know. I have several problems in that area myself. However, church shopping might help, and know that Jesus is with you.

      For myself, it is difficult, because as a woman, who would listen to me? And why am I as uncomfortable with the self-satisfied liberal Christians who are most like myself? I like the intensity of traditional Liturgical churches, but not the attitudes which have been infected with Evangelical study Bibles. But my whole theology is being turned inside out, and maybe based on the fact that human life also includes women, and cannot just be represented with the icon of men. But I am open to solid believing Christians who love and accept others. As St. John said in his Eppistle, God is love; if you do not have love you do not have God.

        • New Episcopalian here 🙂
          We left the Orthodox church after many years there due to their stance toward LGBT people.

          I’ve been pleased to see many aspects of the liturgy that I grew up with also in the mass of the Episcopal church. Our priest is a woman who is one of the most Christlike people I’ve ever known. So grateful to have found a place at the table in our new parish.

          • TC, The Episcopal Church welcomes you and yours. You wrote “I’ve been pleased to see many aspects of the liturgy that I grew up with also in the mass of the Episcopal church. ”

            I don’t know how much of our history you have learned , but the reason you see Orthodox elements in the Prayer Book is because it is there by design. When Cranmer, Latimer, and Ridley were forming the Church of England and developing the First Prayer Book, they were scholars who took from the best that Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and the Reformation had to offer.

            You might enjoy my FB group, Celebrate What Christians Have in Common which does not allow for disent, diviseness, rather the discipline asked of all is to read the posts and discover what they can affirm in the other flavors and voices of Christianity, and not nitpick looking for that with which they disagree. There is too much of that going on already.


            • Thank you, Gloriamarie, for the welcome *and* the bit of history of the church! 🙂 I’m currently off FB much of the time, but may need to get involved in your group!

              • I had a very interesting conversation with a Greek Orthodox priest whose sole frame of reference for the Reformation in England was H8′ desire for a son. I was able to explain to him that the first missionaries to reach the British isles were in the first century and that the spirituality was deeply rooted in the desert monasticism and how the Prayer Book was formed. We had a great time exploring all we had in common.

                Would love to have you in any of my groups:

                Celebrate What Christians Have in Common

                Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff

                Compassion Reading Group

                Painting the Mystery

    • Just tell them that you’re a typical closed-minded liberal bigot who has no tolerance for any Christian who doesn’t worship liberal democrat policies. But they probably already know that.

    • Thank them for bringing your as far as they could on the milk of the Good News and that you are moving on to the meat of the Gospel.

  11. Words for each of us to reflect on…

    “It would be the preachers and the evangelists abandoning the heart of Jesus, perverting the words of the Bible for their agenda, selling their souls for a high place overlooking the world. They would be the very false prophets they told us that we should like hell run from. These supposed disciples of Jesus would be the ones to betray him with a kiss and send him to a bloody, undignified end.”

    …and may we not become this way ourselves.

  12. John, you are my hero! You are brilliant and thoughtful writer who speaks Truth to power in it’s purest form…with loving kindness….I have great admiration for you. I was raised Catholic, and no longer practice. I am a very spiritual person by nature. I do my best to live in loving kindness towards my brothers and sisters. I have lost family members over this election, people who are avid church goers.
    It is difficult for me to understand their disconnect from their Catholicism and their vote….keep writing…you are so uplifting!

    • How did you lose them? Did they reject you because you voted for Clinton?

      There is no “disconnect” whatsoever for a practicing Catholic to have voted for Trump, since Catholics place the highest priority on justice for all, beginning at conception.

      • You are not the arbiter of what is a Catholic viewpoint and what is not. Plenty of us are appalled at Trump because of our Catholic faith. Single issue voting and damn the consequences has been blinding some Catholics for decades.

        • The “single issue” that we kill 2,000 babies unjustly every day carries much weight for a Catholic.

          However, had they both been pro-life or both been pro-choice, I still would have voted for Trump because I want the swamp drained and prefer a leaner and less greedy federal government.

          Are you not at least happy that Trump will likely appoint a pro-life Supreme Court Justice? You do want Roe v Wade overturned, don’t you?

        • Dear Distaff Gospels,

          Thank you. We need loud Catholic voices telling him how he distorts and twists Catholic teaching to suit his own obsessions.

          He seems to have no idea of the extent of Catholic activism there is. I know because I get plenty of their newsletters and post the info to Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff. Thanks to this guy, 29 people have joined that group in the last 2 days and I am hoping for 1 more to make a round number of 30 new members.

          One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.

  13. I’ve been following John since last November. I consider myself a non-Christian; partially because of all of the hatred (yes hatred) and anger that the Christian right has been spewing since my memory began.
    Strangely, even though the hatred continues (far greater in some cases), reading John Pavlovitz makes me consider Christianity again as a possible choice. Ah the enigma of Christianity. thank you John.

  14. Thank you for sharing what I have known for a long time, Get ready for all that protest and say you are false…Continue sharing

  15. Your sarcasism and cynicism is so upsetting. And proof that, Yes you have changed. Terribly so. Where is the loving John who wrote so much love, that we should be spreading love and forgiveness for all and prayer to stop evil. We should not judge so generally. And you now are one of the embittered, skewing from scripture and adhering to your own ideology.
    There are beautiful, wonderful, amazing preachers out there, also right, like Billy Graham and Timothy Keller – absolutely amazing, loving , brilliant conservative men and (women alike.) Many out there. Known and unknown.
    And of course there are those preacher wolves in sheeps clothing out there! Of course. But to say all Christian right are evil and wolves and deceiving is so very ignorant. Jesus will judge the human heart, nothing else, no more. Stick to loving and serving and spreading good and praying for the ” deceived” because frankly everyones feeling of who is deceived is personal. There are many praying for “deceived” democrats too. Jesus said to pray for our enemies, turn the cheek, so what happened to these passive teachings in todays society? Again, we must all Take a good hard look at CS Lewis’ characters in screwtape letters. If we fall into bitterness over politics, we are deceived and tragically the enemy is winning.

      • Ron, I am a staunch independant!! I lean conservative on abortion but hard liberal on healthcare. Just two issues out of many I sway back n forth. Vote the conscience, independant , should be all Christians.
        So there’s No need to get “through” to me. I have seen it all in my sixty years! I know there is evil everywhere, on all sides. I know there are wolves out there. But in both sides!
        I know and love my loving, kind, liberal friends and I know and love my loving, kind conservative friends. ( Though my closest friends will always be those that stick hard center because of evil stances on both spectrums)
        I was merely saying John HAS changed and seems not to be the loving, kind non-judgemental man I knew when he first began his blog. He is letting politics and cynicism infuse his writing. Instead of staying center and loving both sides as best he can, and not judge so harshly, he has swung hard left. As was mentioned before the other day, a Hard left Christian democrat is just as much an oxymoron as a hard right Christian Republican, can never be. Jesus our Lord was SOooo center.

        • Lindsay. thanks for commenting. I think pastor John seems like a nice guy, fun, creative & expressive, caring person –albeit overly defensive. [To me, his solutions to overcoming prejudice and selfishness are more the tail wagging the dog variety]. At the top of the list, for godly Transformation, should be & is: ‘Accept Jesus’ Holy Spirit’. [That is #10 on John’s list –rapidly moving down the list, in fact, falling off the list altogether.]

      • The Religious Right goes back farther than that – to Charles Hodge in the 1870s and “Systematic Theology” – a reaction and rebuttal to rationalism in the Church, and effectively a rejection of the Deist concept of faith arising from the Enlightenment and which underpinned the spirituality of the founders. But it wasn’t an organized political force as such.

        After WWII and the beginning of the Cold War, the Religious Right found new strength in using charismatic religious dogma to justify racial discrimination, as the Politico article notes. From there it was an easy walk to becoming essentially a political, rather than spiritual, movement.

    • If the Christian Right are so loving and kind, then explain to me how they can so gleefully take it upon themselves to attack, physically and verbally, people like me at a near-constant pace. That’s loving? That’s kind?

      No, John is spot-on once again.

      • Again- you can not generalize. There are many hateful arrogant lefts Christian dems also, and
        look at all the riots and violence.
        Why generalize. Of course you will find some Christian rights unlovable, hateful, but I know many who are loving , giving, non judgemental- as well as many libs–
        John is not spot on. He is “off the spot” – how you can say ALL Christian rights are unlovable and haters is plain ignorant –
        Every person has his own heart and mind and soul. This shouldn’t even be an issue, Its a no brainer.

        • Every person I have met since transitioning who identifies as “Christian Right”, “Fundamentalist”, or “Conservative Christian” has been nothing but hateful to me. I’ve been kicked out of businesses, denied housing, denied services, threatened, beaten, labeled everything from “shemale” to “dyke”, I’ve been accused of being a child molester even though I would never in my life do such a thing, I’ve had guns pointed at me, you name it. Every single time, the people who do these things justify it religiously. So no, this isn’t generalization, honey, this is twenty years of experience talking.

          Now, if you can honestly point me towards where these mythical people you talk about are, I would love to meet them.

        • Sure, “Every person has his own heart and mind and soul.” but she nor anyone else has ever been able to interact with all of them individually and while there are offensive and vile people on all sides, and certainly angry protesters who do real damage, it is not those protesters who are literally trying to take equality, acceptance and safety away from the LGBTQ community, immigrants and refugees. It is the group of people who proclaim to be Christians who are doing that and voting like that and supporting causes like that and spewing vitriol like that. How you can compare the two as the same or even on the same par I do not know but they really are not.

          If a protester busts out a window or damages property, that is wrong but it is not even on the same plane as denying equality, rights or acceptance to the groups I listed above. And they are not much better when talking about liberals if the truth be told.

          I am sure on an individual basis, some are indeed followers of Christ who bring love, light and forgiveness but as a group, no ma’am they do not and you cannot even argue that they do.

          • Sandi, that’s precisely what I’m saying. And how they van talk about love while displaying so much hate is mind-boggling. I can’t wrap my head around it.

        • Lindsay, she doesn’t generalize. She is talking a particular demographic who has been hateful to her family. She is quite careful to say tht.

          No one denies that there are bad Dems, but it is not that population who spews filth at her family would prohibit her from using the women’s bathroom. At the Democratic Convention, there were unisex bathrooms.

          • Scan down a little, Gloriamarie, and you will see her true colors come out. Concern trolls is concern trolling, at least until she trundles out the Standard Abortion Talking Points.

              • Further down the thread, Lindsay shifts to talking about abortion (using flawed reasoning and showing how little she actually knows on the subject outside the usual doom and gloom story parroted by the right wing about late-term abortion, something that doesn’t actually happen, as it’s unethical). She then goes into full-on RWNJ mode when she’s challenged about the fact that the people that want to ban abortion are the same people that want to take away medicaid, early childhood education, the school lunch program, and other programs that benefit low-income households.

                (BTW, you’re awesome! <3)

                • Caitlyn Anne, thank you for explaining and the compliment.

                  I stopped reading what Lindsay posted after the first one or two.

                  It’s all such the same old, same old tired argument which is not based on any logic and reason and rejects all logic and reason when offered.

                  There are some people who despise the reflection they see in the mirror John P holds up in his words. What they don’t want to see is the truth about themselves because then they would have to part company with their bigotry, etc.

  16. I’ve been telling my story. Why? Because it makes people uncomfortable- and sheep hate discomfort. But there isn’t a fire & brimstone preacher that ever saved anyone- because abuse does not generate compassion. It generates hatred.

    There is a visceral hatred being born by heterosexism- for anything that isn’t heterosexist. It manifests most obviously in polarized hetero men who despise any observation of the ‘feminine’ in other men. These men are often misogynist in general- with a sublimated hatred of the ‘feminine’ even in & for women. I was attacked by this hatred when I was 8 years old- 5 years before I knew anything about sex- as I was raised in a very naive religious community.

    At 12/13- as I hit puberty and finally came to understand human sexuality (and how I WAS different from the norm) it became apparent that this heterosexist attack mode- directed at any male who didn’t seem masculine enough- was the primary response for an entire mindset of religious cultural reality. Both men and women. And my ‘physical- social and cultural differences at 8 years old’ were so obvious to my attackers- that even though I seemed completely normal to myself- there was NO POSSIBILITY that I could escape that bullying cultural experience.

    Straight men- who have been taught that to be straight MEN requires them to behave like assholes- can’t accept that some men (and some women) have a different kind of balance between the masculine and feminine than they do- and that that difference is in fact- perfectly ok. You’ll note just how many men and women have no ability to confront their bigotry and accept that the universe isn’t exactly what they’ve been told it is- by comments here on your own page- John Pavlovitz.

    So- I saw what you’re seeing about the ‘christian right’ long before you did- because its presence is based in an inexplicably visceral hatred of something it can’t accept as simply part of the whole. And being one of the people it’s been attacking for literally centuries- if not longer- made its so obviously NOT LOVE BASED actions impossible to ignore.

    If you’re going to go to the trouble to actually present as a christian- you really should be behaving like one. And that should suggest to you that you don’t in fact know it all- and that your ‘book’ written thousands of years ago (and suggested to be the everlasting word of a god of love even though ‘he’ seems to be a self-righteous and vindictive prick) may not be the word of god at all- and even more so- may not be the whole truth and nothing but the truth. God may be LOVE. Vindictive manipulative right-wing christians are not.

  17. “Screwtape wanted Wormwood to direct his patient (the human being tempted) to a church with a pastor who cannot make up his mind about the proper place of politics—obsessed with it one day and then cynical about every political situation the next.

    Many of us have that same temptation. And we can be equally fueled by hatred to cause us to swing wildly between opposite extremes.”

    • Or we can be fuelled by love which keeps us from condemning and hating the extreme opposite. I have noticed with both extreme liberals and extreme conservatives, it is hate that keeps them in their corners.

      C.S. Lewis was writing about his times. No single age in history is the same as the other. In America the enemy is within the nation. Perhaps there is an opportunity here for christians of all stripes to reconcile with each other rather than harden their positions.

      I look to Mandela and Bishop Tutu, as a good examples, of how to negotiate evil times in which there are two extreme sides, one side the oppressor and the other side the oppressed. Mandela was called a traitor because he sought reconciliation with the white class, who created Apartheid even though he was instrumental in ending the cruel injustice. And, I look to the bloody French Revolution as an example of how “not’ to rise up and overthrow the elite. Do christians want reconciliation or vengeance ?

      • Christian fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals seek vengeance on their enemies. Most other Christians seek reconciliation with God and compassion for their fellow woman, man, and child.

        • That is the point Charles that we maintain compassion for all and hope for everyone’s. REPENTance no matter if they are fundamentalist or not. We love God because he first loved us, that is our example. When we love our enemies we Inspire love within them. Then it is up to them to choose to respond to love or not. But if we accuse and fight our enemy because we are right and they are wrong there is no end to the battle. History tells us that. Love is a much more difficult path.

          • Let me ask you, why should I, as a transgender woman, happily married to the woman of my dreams, living a very fulfilling and happy life, with a wonderful home and a great career, who spends her time haopily volunteering for those less fortunate in her community, have to repent for anything? And yet, despite my positive contributions within my community, despite my happiness, despite everything, people who call themselves “Christians” spend an obscene amount of time both verbally and physically attacking myself and people like me, all the while saying that “God’s love” is why they do what they do.

            When someone punches you, that isn’t love. When someone calls you a freak, a dyke, a fag, a pervert, that isn’t love. When someone tells you that you would be better off dead, that isn’t love. When someone tries to stab or shoot you, that isn’t love. When you get ran out of businesses, denied services, denied employment, or are even told you can’t use a public restroom, that isn’t love.

            Don’t tell me about love, because as far as I can tell, the Christian Fundamentalist version is something I want nothing to do with, and I refuse to repent for being who I am, for simply existing.

            • I am happy for your happiness and angry at those who would wish you harm. The fact that the Republicans are currently trying to legislate harm is scandalous.

                • Sorry for any misunderstanding Caitlyn, I wasn’t asking you to repent

                  …sorry you took it that way.

                  I was saying that when our enemies repent we should have compassion on them.

                  Our enemies being those who would harm you and hurt you.

            • For what it’s worth, from a follower of Christ, and if it matters and old, white, straight lady, you shouldn’t have to repent. I think we need to heed what JP said the fault is theirs, not ours, unless not being vigilante enough, and I do blame myself for that. Please understand that there are more of us than them. They are louder and nastier but we shall prevail. I have to believe that or I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night. I believe you are as deserving of happiness as any child of God with no buts or ifs attached. Peace, Love and Resist.

              • Thank you so much! I’m almost in tears reading your words, they’re exactly what I needed to hear. I wish everyone thought that way.

            • Caitlyn, You do not deserve such horrible treatment. No one does – should be the point. I am sorry that people can believe in their heart that their God would want them to act like that. I say their God because that is not the God I believe in.

              Everyone deserves to love and be loved.

            • Caitlyn, so sorry you went through horrid abuse, you, and no one should have to go through that, It breaks my heart when I hear of these instances – but every human being needs repentance. We dont get to God Almighty from climbing a ladder of good works and good deeds. Every religion has a “good works/good deeds” stance but the only faith that has God come down to Us and only asks for surrender and repentance and HIS good grace and nothing else that make us His children…is Christianity. It changed the world..He changed the world. Dont mistake mean-spirited, hateful people for all Christians. There are many right Christians loving and kind and they are moved and shocked at these acts of hate.
              Each individual mind and heart and soul has his/her own conscience and responsibility to seek the Almighty God. Scripture tells us: “Seek God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and you will find me” – ” Draw near to God and He will draw near to you” – “. “A broken and contrite heart oh God , you will never despise (always welcome). ”
              You seek God, you talk to him, ask him questions honestly, you seek him and listen to him speak to your heart. Don’t give up on Jesus, persist persuing Him. He loves you more than you can ever imagine.
              Love , peace, persist.

              • But see, so often, I’m told by “Christians” that I should “repent” just for existing, that the simple act of me needing to transition, much less following through, is a mortal sin, and that that justifies the ill treatment I’ve received over the years, especially shortly after I started while in college. I won’t. I don’t see how being who I am, being comfortable in my own skin, getting rid of the inherent sense of self-loathing I carried with me since early childhood is wrong.

                When I started transitioning, it’s like the weight of the world was lifted from my shoulders. I knew there would be challenges, I knew it wouldn’t be easy, but what was the alternative? A lifetime of self-hatred, panic attacks, and depression, followed by, most likely, suicide? I wasn’t going to live that way.

                So few people really understand what it’s like to be someone like me, to live through… this. If you have questions, please, ask, because I guarantee that ninety percent of what you think you know about the transgender community is wrong (that goes for anyone else, too! 🙂 <3)

                • Caitlyn Anne,

                  As I see the people of whom you speak are the people who are unable to place themselves in the shoes of anyone except people like themselves. They are so terrified of anything different from themselves that they cut their noses off to spite their faces.

                  Just look who they elected. Imagine what is going to happen when they realize they themselves are targeted in this evil proposed budget.

                  If they are capable of realizing that they are targeted.

                • Caitlyn Anne, I don’t need to ask, you are God’s child. period. I caught and reacted to the repent in Lindsay’s comment. Rather than say you are wonderful as you see yourself, there was that repent. Sorry for that. Please, please know that there are a lot of us who are followers of Christ who don’t see it the same way. Peace, Love and Resist

                    • Caitlyn, I was using a religious term that has been misused so often that I forget how those abused by religion have been harmed by them.

                      I am gay myself and gender queer so I understand a lot of what you are talking about. I am christian as well so I tend to use ‘christianese’ and I missed the mark on this one.

            • Caitlyn Anne, you make an excellent point and the group doing the oppressing is all too often the one claiming to be Christian . As a person of faith, one of my favorite hymns is “They will know we are Christian by our love” and unless you are living the decency, respect, equality and love it demands, you have no right to call yourself Christian or claim anyone should believe you. I am sure many, individually, are doing so, but many in the group and as a group are not.

              Know that God made you and loves you as you are and that your heart will be judged just as theirs will and if yours has been full of love and giving, you will be on the right side, here and there. And they will not. The God I serve is big on equality and justice. Many will find that out the hard way.

              Best of luck and life!

            • {{{{{{{{{{Caitlyn Anne}}}}}}}} You and your wife are beautiful people, living beautiful lives. Thank you for your testimony.

              One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


        • That is the point Charles that we maintain compassion for all and hope for everyone’s. REPENTance no matter if they are fundamentalist or not. We love God because he first loved us, that is our example. When we love our enemies we Inspire love within them. Then it is up to them to choose to respond to love or not. But if we accuse and fight our enemy because we are right and they are wrong there is no end to the battle. History tells us that. Love is a much more difficult path.

        • Nothing is further from the truth. You have it backwards. Many Christian fundamentalists do so much good ( yes, yes yes – there are some big bad ones out there) but the majority do a lot of good and DO NOT seek vengeance.
          I have seen only Christian dems seeking the vengeance on their enemies in this society today! And compassionate for children? I will bring up abortion again- sorry. Jesus was very clear on what to do for “the little ones” and woe to those who cause them harm. uncnscienable for a Christian or pastor John, or any pastor to be pro choice. Its a despicable crime. And the height if hipocrisy ( something Jesus warned about often)that as soon as baby is born if the mother abandons it they go to prison, but they can rip off hands and arms and legs, and suck out brains at 9 months. Thats deplorable.
          With that said- I know many women who regret and realize it was wrong and have asked for forgiveness and have been restored and felt the love of an amazing forgiving God heal them.
          Bottomline- all the human race seeks reconciliation with God. Repubs, dems, independants- even agnostics searching. We cant generalize.

          • Ahh, now the murder’s out. It’s only the LIBERAL Christians who are “vengeful,” followed up by the usual “‘partial birth’ abortion” talking points (while conveniently forgetting about feeding, clothing, and housing them after they’re born to save your tax rate). But when the right wing wants to deny Caitlyn Anne even the most basic dignities of life, you suddenly start up with your false equivalences; clearly to give cover to right-wingers.

            You are EXACTLY who John was talking about. Thank you for playing. Please try again later.

            • So why don’t you guys really show us up and have some compassion for the unborn too? Why are you instead in agreement with killing off inconvenient babies in the womb?

              • You lie. My wife and I faced that choice a quarter-century ago and CHOSE to follow through; the result is a pretty fair daughter. So stop pretending you know what I think, skippy.

                • That’s wonderful that you did the right thing by your own daughter, but why are you supporting the right of others to destroy their inconvenient unborn children and why are you so critical of those of us who oppose that injustice?

                  And please, I’ve heard the “pro-birth” and “you don’t care about them after they are born” arguments a million times. They are tricky distractions, but don’t address the question.

                  • They’re not distractions. How do *you* justify telling a woman to have a child and then deny her health care and public welfare to raise that child until she is in a better financial and family situation?

                    Far too often we hear the voice of condemnation toward women when they make difficult choices concerning pregnancy, but then in the same breath, every rationalization to call her a “lazy welfare queen” after forcing her to do your bidding?

                    • I would never force someone to get pregnant.

                      I did not make any statements of condemnation of women who had abortions.

                      Our “abortion culture” is the real culprit along with our indifference towards inconvenient life.

                    • TC, you have fallen into his trap. He has a pathological obsession with what women do with their very own bodies. He is not rational, reasonable, or logical about it You can supply all sorts of evidence, facts, and information that contradict his position and he will ignore it.

                      I am sorry to say it, but so many of us have seen it and also said it.

                      He has also said one of his reasons for being here is to bait others. What kind of mature person enjoys being an abuser and a bully?

          • Wow, you are entirely too typical and likely among the reasons the pastor has penned this one. One time too many and we all get annoyed.

            I do not see “Christian fundamentalists” doing any good that is not wiped out by their voting and legislative lobbying against those they seek to control and deny.

            The moderate and even liberal Christians are the ones doing the heavy lifting of love and reconciliation in churches all over this nation not the fundamentalists.

            It IS seeking vengeance when you want to control anyone, deny anyone equality or respect and especially want to use the law and force of government to do it.

            What vengeance have you seen Christian Democrats seek? I would love to know what you mean by that.

            Go ahead and bring up abortion but before we believe that the Christian fundamentalists are pro-life you show me the help that they lobby government to give those mothers so desperate they seek abortion? Show me their efforts at comprehensive sex education to stop teen pregnancy? Show me their programs to aid young families who are struggling in low wage jobs or have no job at all. All I have seen are their efforts to fight ever effort we come up with to help women choose life. You care about the fetus enough to lobby congress, vote against it and protest it, even seek to punish women who do it but show us those efforts to help the women who choose to keep the pregnancy and raise the child?

            Jesus never said a word about abortion and in the OT they often said kill even the women and children.

            Why you assume pro-choice is pro-abortion is part of the problem. If it is not your womb it is not your decision. Walking in someone else’s shoes means that we have to allow them to make their own decisions even as we work for the support and programs to help them make the best one, which I am sure is what this pastor full of compassion does. He should not be making proclamations about anyone’s personal health choices. Not if you are fat and need to exercise, not if you have cancer and refuse treatment, not if you are pregnant but cannot welcome a child.

            I have no doubt many women who choose abortion do regret it. There are many life choices people regret as they age and gain wisdom. That does not and will not give anyone dominion over their body to demand they bear a pregnancy. Yet, as you mention, God forgives them, so what is your excuse?

            • Sandi, that is one of the best comments I have seen. Thank you so much for that. I am so tired of “Look how wonderful we are” as they take away school lunches, senior meals, screw with education, take away rights for a whole segment of society, on and on and on ad nauseum. Peace, Love and Resist

              • Thank you, Sandi, and Kathleen. I too am fed up with the hypocrisy that allows them to turn their backs on the hungry, naked, ill, poor, elderly, handicapped, disabled, children, and veterans and yet claim to call themselves Christians.

              • Does what you see as hypocrisy make you feel justified for supporting the unjust deaths of babies at the hands of abortionists?

                If you have so much compassion, why doesn’t it extend to the unborn too? Why don’t you really show up those hypocrites? Why do you always side with the abortionist?

                • You don’t understand human reproduction. Roughly 30% of all fertilized eggs either fail to implant at all or fail to thrive within the 30 days after conception. If life begins at conception and God knows everyone in the womb as you like to claim, then God is the biggest abortionist going, if we go by your definitions. There are places in the Bible that seem to say that the “spirit” or “soul” enters the fetus at the quickening, which is the first time the mother can feel movement. The vast majority of terminations take place well before that. Those that occur later are usually the result of life-threatening complications or other complex issues that are best handled by those involved and their physicians.

                  Abortion is a complex and extremely private issue. Making it illegal does not stop it, it only makes it more dangerous, with often tragic results. Stigmatizing it often delivers the same.

                  You rant about abortion and the unborn (who may have a 30% of not being born in the first place) over and but turn a blind eye to the harm caused to the living by so many other policies.

                  The CBO estimates that, over the next 10 years, 14 million people will lose Medicaid coverage under the proposed Republican health care plan, resulting in a net savings of $337B. That works out to roughly $1400/year per person. How many of them will you let die for the sake of $1400?

                  • I’ve heard that rationale before. Many times. God kills babies in the womb so we can do it too.

                    We all die. God doesn’t let any of us live forever in these bodies as they are. Some die soon. Some die late. But does that mean because God lets us die we have permission to kill people?

                    That there are miscarriages does not give us permission to kill the embryo or fetus. A miscarriage is not an intentional attack of the embryo or fetus as is an abortion.

                • A cluster of cells is not a baby. Come clean for pity’s sake, you want women to suffer because Eve caused the fall of all creation. Admit it and be done with it.

                  • Lonnie, I’ve read your recent comments, and I’m with you 100%.

                    I can’t stand these people who think they have some right to decide what a woman does with a bit of tissue growing inside her body. They don’t. What can they not understand about the fact that it’s GROWING INSIDE HER BODY.

                    HER BODY.

                    HER DECISION.


            • I notice, Sandi, that the Christian Right doesn’t seem to worry about Teh Liddle Baybees(tm) when they’re brown-skinned and under US bombs. The mothers neither. Gee, I wonder why?

              • The Christian Right understands that the blacks are disproportionately targeted by abortion clinics and their abortion rate is much higher than that of whites, helping make Margaret Sanger’s dream come true.

                It seems the pro-abortion white liberals are very happy with this situation which prevents blacks from outbreeding them.

                • Joe, now that comment is pretty far out there. I hesitate to address you because it usually causes more derision to rain down on your head and I apologize in advance if that happens again.

                  I do see that you have tried to be more controlled in your comments so I do applaud your efforts.

                  As a person who respects your faith and thinks you are underneath a good and honorable man I am truly interested in suggesting other ways you can be more effective in your personal cause. I understand you do not ask for my input but sometimes I cannot help myself.

                  As a former Catholic we were always taught the importance living by the10 Commandments. I know I was never taught that 1 Commandment is more or less important than another one. Breaking a Commandment is a mortal sin.

                  It is ingenuous at best to pretend “you don’t know about President Trump’s lies” while only repeating what good he is doing.

                  He commits the same mortal sin weekly. Lies are dangerous. Lies can get people killed. Lies make him smaller and insignificant. His lies do a disservice to this country and his oath of office. You refuse to consider that this mortal sin carries any importance. It takes away from your message.

                  I understand that people feel abortion is a terrible thing. But you are part of the problem. It is the people like you that have created this issue by having the same attitude for centuries.

                  All the laws you make will never stop abortions. Those who have money will pay off their doctors or jet off to somewhere to get things done.

                  The only thing laws will do is cause more deaths for the desperate. This has been proven over and over again. So, if causing more women and children to die is ok with you keep doing what you are doing. I am sorry you have a stone in your heart about this. Changing attitudes is hard but I think saving lives is worth it.

                  I only wish you peace.

                  • I’ve thought of those things. Ultimately hearts and minds need to change, and “stones in hearts” towards unwanted pregnancies need to be removed. Still, the law serves as a teacher and example and I do believe laws against abortion will serve as a deterrent. Laws against abortion will give abortion a “stigma” again and which it deserves. But once again, I think more needs to be done and we need to become more compassionate and less selfish as well as be willing to support the woman in a crisis pregnancy situation.

                    Regarding lies and mortal sins–I’m not following Trump closely so I don’t know about any specific alleged lies, and I don’t think lying is good, but in politics it seems to be part of the game and sometimes the politician is an actor on the stage and might be forced to play that game.

                    A person doesn’t necessarily commit a “mortal sin” every time he breaks a commandment. It depends upon their state of mind and if they understand what they are doing is a grave offense and if they do so with full consent of the will. Even though I would put abortion in the “mortal sin” category, a particular person who has one might not be committing a mortal sin because she might not understand the gravity of the act or she might have done it out of desperation or outside pressure.

                    Always remember that before you judge someone, you should first walk a mile in their shoes. That way you’ll be a mile away and they won’t have any shoes.

                    • How quickly you dismiss my thoughts and infer I am being judgemental – the same thing you accuse others of doing to you. I just need to remember this lesson you have taught me.


                    • That was a joke.

                      I saw that on someone’s facebook page and it made me laugh. I thought you would think it was funny too.

                      The rest of my post was intended to be a thoughtful response to your comments. I don’t understand your reaction.

                    • Joanne Musto,

                      “How quickly you dismiss my thoughts and infer I am being judgemental – the same thing you accuse others of doing to you. I just need to remember this lesson you have taught me.”

                      I am sorry that you have had your words thrown back in your face after all the patience and tolerance and love you have shown him. I feared it was really only a matter of time because he turned on you also because he cannot bear to face the truth.

                      I pray with all my heart that his rejection has not deeply wounded your caring, compassionate, generous, kind, and tender heart.

                    • I didn’t mean a “stigma” that would be attached to a particular person forever. I meant that abortion would be seen in a negative light if there were laws against it. I think people would be more inclined to think about WHY it is illegal. Our culture instead encourages it by calling it a “right” or a “choice.”

                      Anyway, the argument is that people will have just as many abortions whether it’s legal or illegal and I don’t think that is true.

                    • Joe, I do not expect you to be responsible for which words trigger something in my brain.

                      In the past unwed mothers were treated with shame, disgrace, dishonor, humiliation. The “stigma” was theirs and theirs alone.

                      The society you hold accountable for making is so easy for women to “get rid of inconvenient babies” is the same that has always attached 0% stigma to the gender that is 50% of the problem.

                      Even as a single divorced mother in the 70’s a child support order was just a piece of paper – worthless. Men have walked away from conceiving and supporting responsibilities since the beginning of time.

                      Nowadays the laws have more teeth. But, any law regarding abortion will never subtract from the stigma of women being held 100% responsible.

                      Anyway we can agree to disagree about the effectiveness of a law especially when the government can reach right inside a woman’s body and decide what can be done and what can’t – something a man has never had to consider being done to them.


                    • I guess you are feeling the heat and trying to deflect but this has nothing to do with Hillary Clinton. Clinton did not win the election, she is not trying to ruin this nation. Sure many of her supporters were Christians who could live with her lies that pale in comparison to Trump’s but again, that is not the issue, this is not your blog and you need to learn that.

                    • Joanne Musto, you wrote I didn’t get your joke and I usually love jokes. I was stuck on the word stigma. ”

                      When people say something abusive and claim to disguise it as a “joke” we can be 100% positive that they meant it abusively. Otherwise, they would have said it humorously.

                    • Gloriamarie, I do not feel rejected or abused or bullied. This would not be the place to be if I didn’t want to know other people’s thoughts.

                      What saddened me was the word “stigma”. What he said is just a repetition of what certain people constantly posted on facebook – one of the reasons I am no longer on facebook.

                      When I hear the word stigma what pops into my head is the Scarlet Letter. An “A” can be used for Abortion now that Adultery is deemed a lesser offense.

                      Stigma means a mark of disgrace, shame, dishonor, humiliation. It saddens me that even after 50 years people feel that is what a desperate woman deserves. That is exactly how most women were treated for centuries. It is how they were treated when I was growing up. That was the lesson I need to remember – that no matter what I say or think it will not change anything. Our world is filled with so many stigmas still.

                      Even though he followed with the words of showing compassion, how does one reconcile that with the meaning of stigma?

                      Of course, stigma is also the marks of the Crucifixion on the body of Jesus. Now some will think I blaspheme. I don’t – just stating a fact.

            • So well said.

              I’ve never commented on one of John’s posts before. Only your truly exceptional response could make me do it.

            • Sandi,

              Jesus never said nobody should smoke dope either. Silence doesn’t mean approval, and besides that Jesus spoke through his Church and the Apostles. We know abortion has been condemned by the Church since the beginning.

              What about a compromise for now? Abortion will only be illegal for those who have a certain level of income and who can be determined to be able to raise the child. Would you be in favor of that?

          • Lindsay, please tell me how it’s not despicable to take away the right of a woman to decide what happens to her own body. Please tell me how it’s not despicable to force a woman to bear a child and then, as soon as it comes out of the womb, cut off the social safety net for it and its mother because “they’re a drain on society’s resources”. Please tell me how it’s not despicable that several states now grant rapists parental rights if the rape results in pregnancy. And I’ll tell you that you’re as full of exhaust as the proverbial Christmas goose.

            • How do you feel about the baby that is killed by the abortion?

              I understand your other concerns and they should be considered, but what about the baby that is killed by the abortion?

            • Sorry Susan, having had two children I can not imagine them not existing if I had taken their life. It is downright evil to rip off arms and legs and suck out the brains of a nine month old when the head appears ( partial birth abortion) . And pure ignorance and/or evil to say its ok to “choose”– I believe life is at conception, but also If life is announced over and death is when the heartbeat stops. –Then Life should be considered Life when the heartbeat begins. There is nothing more beautiful and noble than a woman who guards her womb with every bit of her being. Let no one in if you are not prepared for life to well up inside. And /or Arm up with birth control. A woman has this most beautiful and precious gift – guard the womb. That is feminism. You were born a beautiful woman. Guard your womb. Let no one enter the God given gorgeous womb that protects life and nurtures it! There are beautiful human resource stories out there of children who were aborted and lived and children who were adopted and grateful for the chance at life. There are beautiful stories of children of rape ( a minisucle%) who are happy and grateful and thankful for their life and their adopted parents. The hipocrisy of the mother who abandons a child when born and goes to prison , but doctors can rip them apart is abominable. Its such a no brainer.
              Again though. I have friends who have had abortion and have been restored and healed by Gods Almighty, precious, forgiving love. There is nothing too hard to forgive by Jesus’ blood when sincerely asking forgiveness.
              If you had an abortion, and hurt inside, know that His love and grace is enormously abundant and washes us white as snow!
              Well, This has been a crazy week of political debates, but I am signing off. I was off from work, sick , doing tests and after many years finally began commenting on Johns blogs that I would get in my emails. I almost never opened them bec of dozens of other emails- or when I did, I read and scanned and never commented.
              But it seems there are “regulars” on his blog and there is no getting through to anyone. Neither left nor right. exhausting mental energy, arguing on the computer with people we dont know. Crazy.
              Lets get out in our own communities and circle of family and friends and make a difference. Debating here is futile.
              Peace, love, persist ( in love and sanctification and the Words of the Savior King Jesus)
              Peace out.

              • So please tell us who, if anyone, has gotten through to you. Believe it or not, the purpose of his commentary nor the comments made by “regulars” or newbies is really about “getting through to anyone” except those people who feel the same frustrations and have lived the same hypocrisy. Conversation does not have to be about changing minds and “getting through”, it is about exchanging ideas and personal points of view.

                You stand up for what you think is right but don’t like it when others do the same? Why?

                Your lurid description of the so-called partial birth abortion is literally the tiniest sliver of abortions performed and only in the most dire situations. It is not legal to just kill a full term baby and certainly not done for anyone’s convenience. You are cruel and ignorant to claim it is.

                The issue is about a woman (who is already alive and fully human) in crisis and whether we support forcing her to be an incubator or whether we support her legal right to choose abortion if a pregnancy is not what she feels she can handle. I submit we have no right to tell her how she should decide. BTW, I have two beautiful children I very much wanted and adore but I still support a woman’s right to choose abortion if she wants one. So do both my children because I raised them to be sympathetic and empathetic toward others not judgmental and shaming.

                My own mother was poor and sickly and in point of fact would have been immensely better off to have aborted me. She chose not to but it was not an easy life. If it would have given her life even a bit of ease or opportunity, I wish she had. I have always believed she deserved a choice.

                • It doesn’t have to be either/or does it Sandy?

                  One can not shame and judge and at the same time not want babies unjustly killed by abortion.

                  Because you wish your mother had and abortion doesn’t give your defense of this horror and injustice any more credibility. My mother had it rough as well and I am grateful to her and all mothers who did the right thing, and I am sorry for those who didn’t, because they hurt themselves too. I don’t judge them. Our pro-abortion culture and those who preach that abortion is good and acceptable are to blame.

                  So even someone like Donald Trump who was a big sinner can do some good, because he’s going to appoint pro-life Justices, thanks be to God.

                  • Your vicious need to distort what I say only proves you are a zealot and bully not a good debater.

                    Sure “one can not shame and judge and at the same time not want” abortions to happen but you do both. Calling it “babies unjustly killed” proves my point.

                    I did not say I “wish [my] mother had and abortion”, your distortion is disgusting. And twisting my words doesn’t give your accusation of abortion being a “horror and injustice any more credibility”.

                    I get it loud and clear, you are grateful for the choice your mother made but think no woman should have a choice. That is judging them.

                    No one is “pro-abortion” because they are pro woman and pro choice. I pray daily for a world where all women can feel supported to make the choice to keep their pregnancy but I also know we are far from it and you are not helping.

                    Abortion is not “good” or bad, it is just a choice women should have for themselves.

                    You are willing to let so many others suffer over the decisions of Donald Trump “because he’s going to appoint pro-life Justices” and you have the gall to bless that suffering with “thanks be to God”. Wow!

  18. More nonsense from John. What else is new? John is filled with deep hatred for Christians, and it shows every time he writes. If he is really writinga book, then I know one person that will not waste his time or money on it. I’ll let the people that need John’s approval t do that.

    • He fell,right into the trap,of the enemy. He started his Christian journey I am sure sincerely, as a nice, loving, pastor but got sucked right into the deception. Dems and repubs, yes, both need a lot to learn. Following Jesus is hard. Not easy. But oh so beautiful His mercy and abundant grace. But going extreme left is such an oxymoron . ( as stated here before, as is extreme right)
      To say you are a Christian in favor of a womens choice to destroy life is ludicrous. ( not to mention the heaneous , barbaric ways in which they do it) it is cowardice to not stand up to this act as a pastor.
      He likes to write and say what’s on his mind but it is unthinkable to not be able to defend some conservative views and also some liberal views- it is unconscienable to not be able to face the liberals and say- hey I hear you but, abortion is so wrong, there are other ways etc.
      I used to like some of his posts ( I used to only read his posts and never comment- just this week I am commenting b/c home sick)
      He likes to write but it went to his head with all his controversial posts now bringing in hundreds of followers, it was only a matter of time that he gets some publisher coming his way. Oh how the publishers love controversial topics and speakers, causing discord and arguments, only a matter of time for that book deal. Puffs his ego. He really doesnt realize what he is/has been doing. Causing strife and discord and confusion amongst Christians and the interpretation of scripture.

      • Lindsay, you are absolutely correct! John is a false prophet and a friend of the world, not of Christ! That is why he is loved by those that promote, advocate, and apporve of abortion and the perversion of homosexuality.

        • Wayne, thank you. Between you and A Catholic Perspective, a whopping ten people have joined my group. Thank you.

          One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.

        • And there’s that “Christian Right Love” I was talking about earlier. You’re going to call someone like me a “perversion”, but flip out completely when someone challenges your beliefs? Really? Your comment is the equivalent of a toddler throwing a tantrum, and it’s people like you that have driven people like me, and those who are allies, away from the church. It’s this sort of closed-minded bigotry that’s shrinking the number of people who attend church. People can’t stomach the hatred anymore.

          Wow. A “perversion”. I would rather be a “perversion” and live a happy, productive, and full life, than to even consider conforming to what people like you want.

          • He didn’t call you a perversion. What he was saying is that homosexual “acts” are a perversion. I think a better and kinder word to use would be that they are “disordered.”

            • “Disordered”? Really? So I have some kind of sickness because I wanted my body to match who I am as a person? Or is it because, as a woman (and yes, honey, believe me, I am all woman), I happen to love a woman?

              Let me explain something to you at a level you can understand. Being who you are, sexually, physically, emotionally, or even spiritually, is not a disorder unless what you are doing is openly non-consentual. My relationship with my wife is the most loving, happy, wonderful relationship I have ever had.

              I am not a “perversion”, nor am I “disordered” or “sick”. I am a person. I am a woman. I am a wife and a mother (yes, I have a stepson). I am educated, hard-working, and dedicated in every way to my career and my family.

              Sorry if bigots like you can’t handle that. Xx

              • May it be a consolation to you, I hope Caitlyn Anne, that calling you “disordered” (as if!) garnered three new members to Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff.

                Apparently the more the conservatives spew, the faster my group to persist and resists grows.

                One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


              • I said homosexual “behavior” is disordered. I didn’t say anything at all about you on a personal level. There are heterosexual behaviors that are disordered as well, such as masturbation, indulging in pornography, or using contraception.

                I also made it clear that the other person didn’t call you “a perversion.” You took that on yourself, but that was not what was intended.

                • Actually, the other person did refer to us as “perversions”.

                  So, it isn’t that we exist, it the fact that my wife and I make love to each other that makes us “disordered”, and our intimacy that’s a “disorder? Well, it certainly doesn’t feel like a disorder. In fact, it feels like about the most natural thing in the world to us.

                  Love is never a “disorder”. No one should be forced to live a life of celibacy and loneliness just because who we love doesn’t measure up to someone else’s standards. Again, as long as the relationship is one of full consent, and no injury is taking place, why is it wrong? Why should either of us be forced to be in a relationship with someone for whom we have no capacity to form an emotional bond with? That is the “disorder” or “perversion”.

                  And believe me, I’ll be thinking of this and laughing inwardly all weekend, while I’m lying in bed, eyes closed, head back on my pillows, gripping my sheets in my hands, my back arched, and my wife doing things to me that your closed little mind can’t even begin to comprehend.

                  (Who turned on the heat in here? Whew!)

                  • Caitlyn Anne, am I reading a blog or a romance novel? LOL

                    Speaking of people forced into a life of celibacy in order serve up the Eucharist, among other things, I read this today:

                    “Now is the time for married priests”

                    “Thomas Reese | Mar. 16, 2017

                    “It is time for the Catholic bishops to stop hoping for an increase in vocations to the celibate priesthood and to acknowledge that the church needs married priests to serve the people of God. We cannot have a Catholic Church without sacraments, and a priest is needed for the Eucharist, confession, and anointing.

                    “At the Last Supper, Jesus said, “Do this in memory of me,” not “have a celibate priesthood.” The need for the Eucharist trumps having a celibate priesthood.

                    “For at least 50 years, the Catholic Church in the United States has seen a drop in the number of priests. According to CARA reports, in 1970, there were 59,192 priests in the U.S.; by 2016, there were only 37,192. Meanwhile, the number of Catholics increased to 74.2 million from 51 million. That means the people/priest ratio grew from 861 Catholics per priest in 1970 to 1,995 per priest in 2016. These numbers include all priests both religious and diocesan, as well as retired priests. When the priests currently over 65 years of age die, these numbers will be even worse.

                    “Already, in many parts of the United States, we have seen the impact of declining numbers of priests. Parishes are merging and closing. Few parishes have more than one priest. African and Asian priests have become missionaries to the United States. In rural areas, priests drive hundreds of miles on weekends visiting parishes in small towns that no longer have a resident priest. Some rural parishes might see a priest once a month. The number of priestless parishes rose from 571 in 1970 to 3,499 in 2016.

                    “The problem is not just in the United States; in fact, it is worse elsewhere. In 2014, there were 414,313 priests for 1.2 billion Catholics in the world, for a Catholics/priests ratio of 2,896 to one.”

                    The article from the National Catholic Reporter continues to make it’s very convincing argument here:

                  • From a Christian perspective, homosexual behavior is wrong and someone with a homosexual attraction should not yield to it, but should remain chaste, as should a single heterosexual. No Christian should practice sexual immorality and neither should they approve of it or encourage anyone in it. Not my idea. That’s what God’s Church says. That’s what the Scriptures say even without a Church to back them up.

                    But nobody is stopping your or trying to stop you from making your own choices. And you will find plenty of people who will tell you that they have the authority to speak for God and say that homosexual behavior is not a sin.

                    • It doesn’t make sense that I would be attracted to women and not be allowed act on it. I think God gets it even though you don’t

                    • It’s because of “The Fall.”

                      We ALL have disordered desires that express themselves in various ways. We all have concupiscence.

                      We all need to deny ourselves at times because not every desire or inclination leads to a good end.

                    • The fall? How about dealing with reality. It seems christians make it impossible for human beings to have self control or self respect by telling us we can’t help who were are because we were born bad and that decision was made by Adam and Eve thousands of years ago.

                      You are taking away our responsibility for our own thoughts, desires and actions, by yelling me what is sin and not sin. You instantly shame my natural desires and make it impossible for me to see the good and learn how to make good choices.

                    • I don’t know you or what your desires are.

                      I’m talking about the Christian belief regarding the fall of mankind and that we all have inherited Original Sin and a proclivity to sin and that we must learn to rule our passions or they will rule us.

                  • Caitlyn Anne, I always laugh when someone starts going on about “homosexual behaviour” being wrong. I want to know what behaviour. Can a gay person walk their dog? Visit their mother? Volunteer in a soup kitchen? What is so intrinsically wrong with gay behaviour?

                    • Yes, it’s “hilarious” when you take it out of context, but in context I think the meaning was clear. Next time I’ll be more precise.

                    • Precision is what you should be aiming for. When you use such a general term, like “behaviour”, you tell people that their entire existence is futile. You push people another step on the path to suicide.

                    • Baloney. What I meant was obvious in context. I was making a distinction between a homosexual inclination and a homosexual sexual act. I used similar wording regarding heterosexuality. You knew that and anyone with average intelligence who read that in context knew what I meant.

                    • You didn’t hear the point I was making. I am reasonably intelligent and I am not in despair. A person who is perhaps not as well educated and/or who is undergoing trauma from violent bullying may not be able to see the context and just see those two words put together that negate their entire experience.

                      You will note that I started speaking in a more general fashion, not replying to you. There many unthinking people who use that word construction. I don’t know if it is from lack of awareness, convenience because everyone else is doing it, or deliberately because they know the devastating effect.

        • Typical “Christian Right”. Say something obnoxious, and then when you’re challenged on it, you don’t bother defending your comments. Awesome.

          • Caitlyn Anne, here’s the thing I find so gosh darned amusing about these so-called Christians of the Right. They claim to have a superior knowledge of the Bible than the rest of us mortals but they don’t recognize a man with a gift of exhortation speaking with a prophetic voice just like the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures.

            Evidently, they choose to be as closed off to the action of the Holy Spirit as did the prophets’ audiences in Israel and Judah and we know where that led.

            Evidently, they choose to be as closed off to the action of the Holy Spirit as did the Pharisees of the Sanhedrin and we all know what happened to Israel at the hands of the Romans.

            The parallels are clear. Woe to the one chooses to ignore history.

          • I hate that passive aggressive way some authoritarian’s post. “He didn’t call you a perversion”, “I said homosexual “behavior” is disordered. I didn’t say anything at all about you”. Sell that BS to your friends all you like, both of you were insulting Caitlyn and any other LGBTQ person, and we all know it.

            You all judge, you condemn and you insult because you are convinced God is on your side. But what if you are wrong? What if you and those you trust have misinterpreted the doctrine they have? What if the message of love really was meant for all and claiming anyone’s behavior or choice is “perversion” or “disordered” is an affront to God and the love he commanded? What then oh Catholic Perspective, so sure you are right? You are betting your soul on it you know.

            • That’s my religious belief backed up by the largest and oldest Christian Church. Nobody called any person here “a perversion.” Everyone deserves to be treated respectfully, and I was not disrespectful to that poster, but I should be able to express my religious beliefs. No offense was intended but if it was taken, that’s on them, especially if they are as secure in their beliefs as they profess to be.

              I’ll let the Church say it because it says it better than I can:

              Offenses against chastity

              2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

              2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.”138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”139

              To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

              2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

              2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

              2355 Prostitution does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. The one who pays sins gravely against himself: he violates the chastity to which his Baptism pledged him and defiles his body, the temple of the Holy Spirit.140 Prostitution is a social scourge. It usually involves women, but also men, children, and adolescents (The latter two cases involve the added sin of scandal.). While it is always gravely sinful to engage in prostitution, the imputability of the offense can be attenuated by destitution, blackmail, or social pressure.

              2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them.

              Chastity and homosexuality

              2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

              2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

              2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

              • In my opinion, people like you should never be allowed to post where anyone who is vulnerable to your authoritarian dogma has shared anything about themselves.

                You quite literally serve no good purpose on this entire thread. We already know your “largest and oldest Christian Church” (or as I like to call it, the mafia of religion) and their positions on the issues, all issues. That is what pushes so much of the discrimination and bigotry the LGBTQ community faces. The Catholic Church is a bully!

                Frankly the Catholic Church has done so much damage, been the core of so much perversion, corruption and evil that it is hard to remain civil to folks like you who just push that out of sight and go on moralizing like a zealot. Forget the Crusades and Inquisition, the children molested, the stillborn denied consecrated ground, the orphanages of abuse, the riches stored up on earth, in pomp and pageantry while devout worshipers live in squalor are all appalling and it is hard to fathom your gall.

                Your agenda is clear and while you value what you post, the majority here do not welcome your hubris, and I certainly never will. But I can see why you need to remain anonymous.

                • Well, Sandi, he often lies. He also often displays an ignorance of history. For example, ““largest and oldest Christian Church” this statement is just plain wrong.

                  The Orthodox Church is as equally old because until July, 1054, when the various Prelates unedifyingly excommunicated each other along with their followers, there was but one church.

                  The Roman Catholic Church, by this name has only existed since then.

                  Thus the Orthodox Church is just as old.

                    • Yes, Sandi, zealots are. I note that you are standing up for those he bullies. Good for you.

                      I did that and now I have my very own personal troll. I am so flattered. John P is trolled. I am trolled. Such a honor to be classed in a category with John P. Not that I claim to have the prophetic voice and gift of exhortation he so clearly displays.

                      Good to have you here.

                • I agree with you. I have gotten so I won’t read his comments because they are hateful and mean. He doesn’t seem to care who he hurts. This is a sad human being. I keep telling myself that God is still working on him but God told me that I don’t have to work on him, so my advice is ignore. I tried, I watch others try, but it doesn’t make any difference. So my take is “Joe, good luck because I do truly and not spitefully believe you are wrong, but you have the right to your beliefs. Let the rest of us have the right to our beliefs”. Peace, Love and Resist Hate.

                  • I know you are right but when he keeps on bullying people, I just cannot ignore it. Expressing a belief is never a weapon and when it is, it deserves to be smacked down hard. Especially a sanctimonious apologist for the Catholic Church! I am sure when Jesus cleared the Temple they all thought they were doing the right thing too.

                    • So you’re clearing the Temple, are you?

                      That puts you in very good company, doesn’t it?

                      And makes me one of the thieves who you’ve whipped with your righteous cords.

                      You certainly are not the type to have any problems with self esteem.

                      At any rate, I would appreciate very much if you would cite examples of me “bullying” anyone.

                    • And again with the distortions and twisting of someone’s point. No, I am not “clearing the Temple” and I never pretended I was.

                      I happen to be in very good company when I speak out against bullies like you but you are most assuredly among those who thought they were doing right in the Temple and you say so, over and over. God will do all the “whipping” needed.

                      As a matter of fact, I am not righteous at all, I am deeply troubled by my hate and inability to get over this final betrayal by the church supposed to serve God. I have been standing up to bullies all my life and I am not changing now. You are also wrong about my not having “problems with self esteem”, they are legion. None of that changes your behavior or my reaction to it. You might also note, I am not alone in that impression of you.

                    • Joe, disorded is a sugar coated way of saying perversion. People are smarter than you give them credit for and can see through your insults.

                  • Kathleen B, many of us have reached out many times to the person presently calling himself A Catholic Perspective, but this is only the most recent of his many aliases.

                    He responds to us all with vitriol. Many of us believe “God is still working on him but God told me that I don’t have to work on him.” When we cease to interact with him, he changes his identity into to lure new people into his web.

                    It is sad, it is tragic. He tkes as a personal attack that which is not aimed at him personally, and when something is said directly to him he either ignores it or he distorts and twists it.

                    What is a shame is that he seems to have a fine intellect, when he isn’t acting like an eight-year-old, but he wastes it in rejecting anything that doesn’t fit his narrow worldview. He is not a person who will discuss, only bludgeon.

                    The waste of a good mind is tragic.

                • Another anti-Catholic bigot.

                  Not a surprise.

                  And a very angry one.

                  I was right in my another post to you. You are on a self-righteous high. And you are not helping people when you condone their sins. You are hurting them.

                  • Let me guess, everyone who calls you out on your bullying passive-aggressive BS is “angry” and “on a self-righteous high”? Of course in your closed mind, we could never be right or just telling the unvarnished truth.

                    I do not “condone sin”, I just have enough sense to know that the Bible does not rank sin and one is not more acceptable than others.

                    • Sexual contact outside of a valid marriage between a man and a woman is a sin. You condone (or seem to be condoning) homosexual behavior.

                      I made it very clear that everyone should be respected and the post I made quoting the Catholic Catechism, to which you angrily responded, was charitable. There was no ridicule or condemnation and I don’t see why you reacted as you did, even if you don’t agree with the Church’s position, since their words were very compassionate.

                      Do you think that Catholics should not be able to express their opinions and beliefs here? Only Protestants? Or only Protestants who agree with you? Or only a certain sect?

                    • By all means, “express yourself” until your fingers bleed. Proselytize and lecture like someone comes here to see what you say since your ego seems to need it, just stop putting your judgement into replies to people being open, honest and vulnerable and you will have no problem from me. But I stand up to bullies every time I see them in action. Especially those using the Bible or the church to browbeat.

                    • Then you need to look at that exchange again since the person you were defending made an unfair accusation. Nobody called her “a perversion.”

                      I am happy you are here, btw. You have made this place more interesting and fun.

                  • Catholic Perspective – I am not an authority on the Bible, nor am I as experienced in religion as most people here. I do understand social skills and basic common courtesy quite well, however, and they apply to any group anywhere, regardless of one’s beliefs. It seems to me that you feel that it is okay to disregard common courtesy and sensitivity to others because of your belief in an interpretation of the Bible that not everyone here shares. And when you are confronted about that lack of sensitivity, you hold up that “authority” as a defense where most well-adjusted people would simply take personal responsibility for their opinions. My opinion is that you have been rude and insensitive, simply based upon commonly understood social norms, not on my spiritual beliefs, which would not have any value as a source of authority to you. I would like to know why you feel it is necessary to be here when you seem to be in such disagreement with everyone here, instead of going to some “Catholic” site where you could be more constructive. It’s obvious you’re not having any impact here – except a negative one.

                    • Edward M, your assesment fo this person’s social skills is right on target. It is behavior like that which makes me think he displays the maturity level of an eight-year-old quite frequently.

                      I daresay his response will be to call you another anti-Catholic bigot.

                      …sigh… It does get old. I had no idea there were so many anti-Catholic bigots out there.

                      Imagine my surprise to be lumped into that category after a lifetime of point out to people when their perceptions of the RCC were based on prejudice and rumor, rather than actual facts.

                      Of course, like any other church, the RCC gets a lot of stuff wrong. But they are but humans.

                    • A Catholic Perspective aka so many pseudonyms, thank you. Another person signed up to Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff for a total of twenty-eight in the past two days. Please keep up the excellent recruitment work.

                      One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


                    • Edward M, Joe is trained in dogma. Practising Catholics do tons of repetition in prayer, thinking if one repeats something over and over again it is more meaningful. This is why he seems so thick headed and redundant.

    • He doesn’t care too much for self righteous bigoted frauds. If that translates into Hatred for Christians in your little world well that’s just too bad.

      • The point is he used to be more loving and accepting and center and he is getting bitter and cynical and losing sight of when he first began his blog: Show love, compassion, patience, seek the Lord with all your heart, dont judge etc etc.
        But instead of being wise and staying strict center and defending issues that Jesus would be horrified ( abortion), and defending both dems and repubs on different issues, he swayed hard left and is bitter against ALL right Christians. Not all are bad. ( I am independant and fall liberal on some issues!)
        Every person has their own mind and heart and soul, you can not categorize every Christian right into these sect-crazy/hate groups!Its a no brainer.

        • Translation: “he’s calling me out and it makes me uncomfortable.” He’s not hateful; it seems to me he’s justifiably sick and tired of people who wrap up right-wing political talking points in Teh Liddle Baybee Jayzus(tm) by way of making them into politico-religious baseball bats to use against Teh Librulz(tm). He called you and Wayne out perfectly. DEAL WITH IT.

    • Christians have more than enough enablers and apologists, I am sure seeing the truth written out like that is hard. It is always hard being confronted and convicted by the truth. That was part of God’s plan. It is not John’s approval any of us are working for. You might want to keep that in mind for yourself.

  19. Fundie: “We have met the enemy and he is us.”

    Just remember this at the final Judgement dear fundies. If God starts the day’s proceedings with this statement, it is going to be a really long day for you guys:

    “Before Abraham was……I IS.”

    It’s going to be a very long day!!!!

    • Throw a little Mathew 7: 20-23 at them and watch them squirm. Or at least twist themselves into pretzels to deflect the point.

  20. I do not understand why it took so long for me to find you, but I thank God now that I have. Thank you for being a voice in what seems like the wilderness to so many, myself included. God seems to have chosen well!! Thank you for accepting the call.

  21. I have no clue what he is talking about, but I suppose it has to do with his continuing resentment that the election didn’t go his way.

    • A true catholic’s perspective would be to possess the ability to identify with another’s suffering and seek to alleviate it, not intensify or capitalize on it. A true catholic’s perspective would recognize that our purpose on this earth is to learn how to love, accept and understand one another, not dictate to another how or whom they should love. Lastly, a true catholic’s perspective would realize that the long dreaded anti-Christ has, as predicted, risen into power and would fight with every breath the evils that are abound.
      Your claim of a catholic perspective has fallen a tad short.

      • Well that’s what you say Lori, but don’t think I haven’t tried to reason with him and people who are hurting themselves with their blind hatred towards a man who is doing his best to good for our country.

        How do you know what a “true Catholic” would do why do you claim the authority to tell me what I should be? Are you a “true Catholic” yourself?

        I don’t mind if you question my beliefs. Ask anything about what a “true Catholic” believes and I will not dodge as many here do who claim to be Catholics. But what you have imposed on me is based on your personal beliefs and opinions.

        Are you implying that Trump is the “anti-Christ”?

    • Are you Joe Catholic? If so, this post is not just for you but also leslie m, , Wayne, and other Conservative / Bible Believing Christians- I strongly urge you to pray earnestly if you should continue to post here. You’re not going to change anyone’s mind and there is a lot of hostility towards us (i.e. Conservative / Bible Believing Christians).

      I pray you honor the Lord in whatever you do, making disciples of all nations, and bearing fruit in keeping with repentance.

      Looking forward to seeing you in heaven.

      God Bless!

      • You can come down off your Ronco Handy-Dandy Self-Martyrdom Cross with the Insta-Fold Arms and Comfort Gel-Insert Footrest(tm) any time now. You have the secular political power you sold your soul to Mein Trumpf to get; do you need to force others to adore you into the bargain? Thin-skinned much?

    • He seems to be more concerned that the election did not go America’s way. But whatever makes you comfortable. Many people of faith feel betrayed by people we believed to be Christian supporting Donald Trump. Even ignoring his politics, the man is vile.

      • But the man gave them what they wanted; secular political power. They would literally vote for Satan, cloven hoof and all, if he had a R after his name and promised to overturn Roe and Obergefell. They would just tell us that Gawd is usin’ ‘im fer Holy Purposes(tm).

      • I don’t have to accept your dogmatic statement that someone is “vile.” You saying that doesn’t make it so. I’m looking at the big picture and not focusing on the cracks in the vase but looking at the overall vase.

        You are vilifying Trump and scapegoating him and his supporters and are on a self-righteous high.

        • Yeah, I am the one on a “self-righteous high”. Wow, you are truly without self-reflection aren’t you? Not that I would expect different, you have to be.

          Trump is factually, demonstrably, documented and proven vile. His words, tweets, deeds, efforts and actions are also vile, harmful and damaging to the most vulnerable. No wonder you defend him as religious.

          • I’ve never defended him as “religious.”

            I defend him against people who vilify him to the point of making fun of the color of his skin. These are very mean and nasty people who don’t want to see anything good about him or what he is trying to accomplish.

            They have turned him into a devil so that they can focus all of their hatred and anger on one person. He is their scapegoat. They don’t have to think about their own flaws and sins, because Trump is so vile and evil.

            It’s really sad seeing people who call themselves Christians doing this.

            It’s especially sad these same Christians vigorously defend the unjust killing of life in the womb, and it’s no coincidence that the focus of their hatred has promised to appoint pro-life Justices.

            • The Catholic Church is not “pro-life”, it is just anti-abortion.

              Admitting Trump is vile has no bearing on anyone’s personal sin or journey anymore than claiming the same about any other vile person.

              • I didn’t mention the “Catholic Church.”

                At any rate, I understand that pro-choicers like to make the argument that “your not REALLY pro-life” unless you agree to adopt every baby in the world, take in every homeless person, find a cure for cancer, etc. etc. It’s not a very intelligent argument, but somehow the think it works and that it’s a huge insult to say that we’re really just “anti-abortion.” But I am perfectly fine with that.

                However, you can’t say that of the Catholic Church which feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, and heals the sick. The Catholic Church is very far from being “just anti-abortion.”

                Here’s something from Mother Teresa who Catholics now refer to as “Saint Teresa of Calcutta,” a person who nobody can say was “just anti-abortion”:

                But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child, a direct killing of the innocent child, murder by the mother herself.

                And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another? How do we persuade a woman not to have an abortion? As always, we must persuade her with love and we remind ourselves that love means to be willing to give until it hurts. Jesus gave even His life to love us. So, the mother who is thinking of abortion, should be helped to love, that is, to give until it hurts her plans, or her free time, to respect the life of her child. The father of that child, whoever he is, must also give until it hurts.

                By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems.

                And, by abortion, the father is told that he does not have to take any responsibility at all for the child he has brought into the world. That father is likely to put other women into the same trouble. So abortion just leads to more abortion.

                Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want. This is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion.

                • A Catholic Perspective
                  I don’t understand why you seem to “need” to be here and argue with people. It seems pathological. If I found myself somewhere where my statements seemed to be offensive to others, and where I noticed I was obviously not taken seriously, not creating anything constructive, and that I was causing distress to others, I would leave. Under those conditions, which are obvious in your case, why do you stay? I believe that you are entitled to your own beliefs, but you aren’t doing any good here, that I can see. I makes it look like you are only here to feed some need to cause others pain. That doesn’t seem to be very Christian to me.

                  • Edward M, Thank you, friend, you have said this beautifully, and I believe you speak for a lot of us. It mystifies me, his behavior. Sometimes I think he likes us to lose it so he can feel superior. I decided I wouldn’t try because that is giving him too much power, I think I will keep mine. Peace, Love and Resist.

                    • Hi Kathleen B! I’ve missed talking with you! Sorry I didn’t get here earlier. Although God has been the center of my life for decades, I don’t have the same level of Biblical understanding as most people here. You, and my other friends here do, and I learn a lot from you. I am grateful for this. I don’t worry too much about antagonistic stuff where I’m concerned, whether it’s here or life in general, but when people are disrespectful or offensive toward my friends, especially people like you, well…….(bad words, bad words, bad words).

                      Love, Peace, Blessings, friend. Oh, and say hello to The Hero, would you?

                    • Edward M, Don’t sell yourself short. I am still learning all this bible stuff. I think that is what I keep trying to get across to some who think they have all the answers, none of us do and if we could converse without the attitude that I am right and you can’t be maybe we could find common ground. Then I try and they get downright nasty. So will continue cautiously but will continue trying to recognize when it won’t help, then I back off. I liked the way you handle Joe. My hero says Hi back. Peace, Love, and Lots of Resist

                    • I didn’t realize who that was. Oh well, I guess it’s pointless to dialogue with them. That’s the scary part of fundamentalism – of ANY kind: the absolute closed-mindedness. It doesn’t apply to just religion, either. There are people who have fundamentalist beliefs about race, sexuality, gender identification, politics, and so on, who don’t have any fixed attachment to a religion. The one point of logic that they seem to miss, is that if they are so certain of the “absolute authority” of, and have had a “direct experience” with “absolute salvation” through, their system of belief, they wouldn’t be so defensive or antagonistic with others that have a different belief.

                    • I agree with you and that is what makes all this so frustrating, because they don’t want dialogue, they want people to follow along as sheep. Not being the sheep type and I suspicion a lot of us on here are not sheep type, it makes things frustrating. I guess we just keep trying on occasion, at least that’s what Suzy sunshine would say. Peace, Love and Resist.

                  • Thank you for sharing your perspective.

                    I think the blog host unfairly attacks Christians who believe and vote in good faith and for good reasons. That’s why I post here. To defend them.

                    I don’t think it’s very Christian of a pastor or other Christians to do that.

                    • A Catholic Perspective
                      I don’t know, it doesn’t seem like you are “defending” anyone. It seems more like you are engaging in intentionally antagonistic arguments, and when you reply to others, you are doing the same thing you criticize John for. I think that you have every right to believe the way that you do, but the way that you treat people here is not okay. I would like to ask you to go elsewhere. You are doing nothing here that is positive, or that “defends” other Christians. Like I said before, your need to be here seems pathological and for your benefit only. Please go elsewhere to get those needs met. I would appreciate it. I won’t bother you further about this, and I don’t need for you to respond to me – I’m not interested in participating in your, whatever it is you are doing. I have more constructive things to do. And so do you.

                    • Again you try to deflect from what you have done here. You are not defending anyone, you are trying to justify them by using passive-aggressive tactics to berate and browbeat anyone who dares to disagree with your analysis. I don’t think it’s very Christian of you to infiltrate the blog and use it that way. Start your own blog and leave people alone here.

  22. You rock, John P with your persistence to tell the truth. It is shocking to me how many people who comment on your blog have so closed their hearts and minds to the Holy Spirit that they dare to find fault with you when every word you write is truth.

    The truth your are telling has people signing up to join my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff in record numbers, especially when they read the voices of those who are against you.

    I have three people whose request for membership is still pending because they asked to join but didn’t answer the security question. I sent all three of you PMs to ask you to demonstrate that you are neither spammer or troll. If you don’t answer that question, I will be declining your request.

    One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.

    • Gloriamarie you said

      “It is shocking to me how many people who comment on your blog have so closed their hearts and minds to the Holy Spirit that they dare to find fault with you when every word you write is truth.”

      -closed their minds to the Holy Spirit?
      -that they dare find fault ?
      – every word you write is true?

      Are you saying there is there no room to question John Pavlovitz?

      • Thank you for asking, rather than making nasty assumptions.

        As I have frequently questioned some things John P has said and will probably continue to do it, obviously the answer is “no.”

        However, it is obvious that his words are driven by the Holy Spirit, he has a gift of inspired exhortation spoken with a prophetic voice as did speak the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures and Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God and the Second Person of the Trinity, but he also speaks to us with a prophetic voice which is not contradictory to being God. A prophetic voice is one of the many ways God chooses to speak to us.

        There would be a lot of healing in this country were people to heed what John says, repent, and do better.

        • I think there is a lot of insight and wisdom in John’s words but his personality and preferences come out as well. Yes, he is inspired and tough and I have been taught a few things in my time here. I am just wondering were you are getting your ideas from. Who else is saying that?

          • I have no idea what you mean by “I am just wondering were you are getting your ideas from. Who else is saying that?”

            To which ideas do you refer?

  23. I agree whole heatedly.
    But I have to wonder why you were blind for so long.
    Maybe because I wasn’t raised as a devout Christian, I had a more unobstructed view, but it has been patently obvious to me since at least the Reagan administration, and would have been seen even before that if I had been old enough to notice.
    Excuse my bluntness here, but that is what Christians do. That’s their MO, their A Game. I have met very few people calling themselves Christians that are not judgmental and self-righteous, hypocritical worshipers of capitalism. They call socialism in even the mildest form, evil, even if the goal is that all children be able to eat. They don’t want their tax money feeding those welfare abusers they believe are every rock, waiting to snatch their wallets. And the more fundamentalist the church, the less likely they are to feed a poor person without first making sure he believes in their Jesus. I don’t hear any Christians referring to Jesus’ proclamation that the poor would always be among us and that we should care for the least among us. Frankly, I have not found any Evangelical Christians that know the history of the Christian Church or even a shred of actual Christian Theology. Just judgment and mean-spiritedness oozing from every pore. That is all that I can see in American Christians. If there are any true Christians in this country, they are awfully quiet and ineffective. But those to which you refer are everywhere, and wanting to take away my inalianable rights.

    • Shelley, in the 1970s for a good portion of it, evangelicals were in favor of social justice and supported Roe Vs Wade becoming law. But when James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, and Ronald Reagan started spouting their dreck and the bigots, the gynophobes, the misogynists, the prejudiced, the racists, and the white supremacist realized they had people taking their language, they started to flow out of the woodwork like cockroaches.

      Of course, I will give Reagan credit, he increased taxes on the wealthy.

    • One thing you notice very quickly about the Christofascist; they quote Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, Thessalonians, and Colossians with gusto, but rarely mention anything in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John (besides the Christ’s referencing his divinity a la John 3:16); they seem to have a positive allergy to actually citing the Christ’s actual teachings. They gloss over His commandment to not pary in public so they can cheer on Tim Tebow for praying in front of 60,000 people every Sunday afternoon. They HATE the teachings; they just want the Get Out of Hell Free card.

      • What strikes me the most. Joseph Gillis, is the way they completely ignore the Beatitudes. I read somewhere… C S Lewis, N T Wright, maybe that all of the NT was but a commentary on the Beatitudes.

        One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.

  24. John,

    I respect you, but you’ve kind of taken way too long to get here. Far too long. And what’s been blinding you has been your faith.

    There are lots of us – mostly nonbelievers, often people raised in churches rife with appalling behavior, who have said the same thing for years.

    It’s not people being bad xtians, nor is it people are are not true christians (both of which are the normative responses to this from the xtian community).

    It’s the faith.
    It’s the fact that your faith enables you to accept assertions which do not in any way square with reality.
    It’s the fact that faith allows for and encourages the creation of circular arguments which are used as a mallet to silence dissent.
    It’s because circular arguments are used as a hammer to silence dissent by men (mostly) who are far more concerned with power than with any sort of altruism or grace.

    **faith is not your friend.**

    Faith is a way that other people with malicious intent can manipulate you into reprehensible beliefs and actions.
    No amount of rationalization can change that.
    Think for yourself.
    Reject assertions that don’t square with reality.
    Do what matters here, now, because this is the life we can experience. We can’t know for certain that there’s an afterlife, and living life according to strictures that actively harm or demonize others to buy grace in the afterlife seems counterintuitive unless you’re deathly scared of punishment.
    Make a difference now.
    Help someone fix something that needs fixing.
    Listen to people with difficult problems.
    Make a difference now.
    Don’t assume your faith buys you grace.
    It doesn’t.
    All it does is ensure that others see you as a sanctimonious asshole.
    And that doesn’t help anyone.
    Ultimately, If you can’t live by the golden rule, your ethics suck.
    The community of unbelievers and former believers have been telling you this for forty years. And only now, when it affects YOU, do you notice.

  25. I’m not a Christian, but when I run into one-size-fits-all Christian-bashing among my liberal, progressive, socialist, and feminist friends, I say, “Not so fast,” and talk about how the civil rights movement was born and nurtured in Christian churches, and how some of the most dedicated people I met in the anti–Vietnam War movement were motivated by Christian doctrine and Christian faith.

    My friends weren’t always willing to listen. I understood their reluctance (and occasonal nastiness) and I still do. Plenty of them were driven out of their Christian families, churches, and communities for being lesbian, gay, feminist, sexually active, and/or pregnant, and so on. The intolerant Christian right is exactly as you say it is, but there’s more to Christianity than that. I’ve got plenty of friends and acquaintances who are living proof of that.

    One-size-fits-all doesn’t work for most ideologies and religions, the exceptions being those that, like Nazism, are rooted in hatred. Nazism doesn’t come in “moderate.” And chances are that the haters of all persuasions have more in common with each other than they do with most of their co-religionists.

  26. What you have witnessed, John (as I’ve posted you on the FB side of many of your posts), is the Religious Right (yes, I’m old enough to have heard that term from the Falwell Senior days) selling their souls to the Republican Party for secular political power. They threw over a man who was LITERALLY a Sunday-school teacher in Jimmy Carter for a philanderer who dumped his wife for his pregnant girlfriend (yes, Nancy Davis Reagan), and all because that philandering Ronnie Raygun made them the same promise Mein Trumpf did; SECULAR POLITICAL POWER. Strange that they claim to follow a Guy who famously said that His kingdom was not of this world when they are feverishly trying to establish what they think is His world here.

    • Do you have a source for your story about Reagan? I’ve never heard that. What I remember is that his wife filed for divorce and that he opposed it.

  27. Thanks again John. “When what is vile is exalted among men, then the wicked strut about.” I agree John. Surely the wicked are strutting. I see it in the face of Paul Ryan and many republicans, as well as some Christians, while the plan to take from the poor and give to the rich is praised. Even if we did not believe them, we should believe the word because it is so true.

  28. You’re right on. . . now how are you planning to move forward? I believe we need to get away from hierarchy, as most everyone can become educated and we no longer need that structure to “explain” our values to us. How do we use a more progressive model of collaboration, education and fellowship with others of like mind?

  29. Speaking of strange things. I just watched the movie “Manchester by the Sea” on DVD. I am a master at plumbing the depths of English literature and catching the really interesting, between-the- lines things that most other people miss. Would anyone like to explain to me what I just watched on any level that goes deeper than the simple plot line?

    All I saw was a bunch of individually self-absorbed working class people flailing around in their individually miserable lives—obviously caused by their pathological self-absorption. “I’m having a panic attack. It just hurts me so much to know that daddy is still in that freezer”—What?—rather than being eaten by worms in his coffin underground!!!

    This monstrosity was a finalist for Best Picture? Casey Affleck got an Oscar for playing that role. You have to be kidding!!!! Only the Age of Trump could have created a cow pie like this one. One would at least think that there might be a theme of miserable people drawing strength from the mighty sea next to Manchester? But no-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o!!! I had to watch 2 whole hours of miserable working people in their homes furnished by Big Lots—and I would bet my last nickel every one of these miserable people voted for Trump. And here is one of the weirder things. The outsides of the Manchester homes in the movie are pretty large and spacious, but the insides where the miserable people live are the small-room insides of those cramped little box homes with exterior asbestos shingles that were built by the millions for coming home soldiers and their wives at the end of World War II. Then the movie ends abruptly with a fishing scene on the boat that just got a new motor—and the credits start rolling. No theme tugs the heart. Nothing that happens is sown up. No higher truths are revealed explicitly or implicitly. No aspect of the human spirit is undergirded or glorified. No peace or hope shines forth. This movie could have been filmed on any day and in any home in the rundown working class neighborhood I grew up in—a sameful, never-ending mass of misery that just keeps on going from day to day in the lives of people who have no hope because—they really do have no hope—and the end of their days is death that merely proves their sense of hopelessness was correct. Get out of here!!!!

    Movie-making should be worlds—galaxies—universes better than this piece of groaning garbage.

    • Yeah, I don’t have time for movies that focus on self-pity, I got over all that years ago. I’ll wait for Ghost in the Shell (even though they should have had an Asian actress play the role of The Major, I mean come on, she’s Japanese!). At least I’ll have fun at that one.

  30. Dear John, you have certainly outdone yourself in this latest blog! Much of it is great comedy.

    I can visualize you jumping up and down, breathing your own style of, as you say, “fire and brimstone”, as you castigate the conservative Christians. You do an amazing job of painting a whole community with the same angry brush and lumping all those who disagree with your theology in the identical fundamentalist boat that, in reality, is occupied by only a narrow group of Christians.

    You remind me of the gender stereotyped guy who is driving and insists he is not lost but knows where he is going, and who becomes angry and defensive if challenged. So he happily drives on.

    The blog is also part tragedy. You say you were once been blind, but now you see. But what do you really see? I believe there is an interesting correlation in Scripture found in Acts, chapter 9:1-5.

    However, I fear you have more remained the man Saul than become the man Paul.

    • You can claim that we should only have issues with “a narrow group of Christians” but the reality of this election (and the shape of many state legislatures, governor seats and our Congress) was not achieved by any “narrow group of Christians”. That is just the honest reality.

      You can whine about his fiery delivery as you like but when Jesus ran the business folk out of the Temple he was pretty fired up too.

      The notion that only conservatives know God and what God wants is just not correct. Any way you look at the life of Jesus, he was a liberal person, his ideas were radical, his plan (God’s plan) remains radical. He did not drug test before he fed them, he did not preach before he forgave them, he did not berate them for their situation, and over and over he told people and the leaders how to treat their flock, how to be a good shepherd, even as the right calls us “sheeple” as an insult.

      You do not see what you do not want to see but the conservative Christians who claim to speak for God are not doing so according to the Bible I read, the Jesus I try to follow and the life I lead. They actively work to make life harder for the poor, the imprisoned, the widowed, the orphan and all of those Jesus told us to care for.

      If Jesus/God did not mean for our political leaders to be good stewards and look out for us, why did he pick his own leaders and bless them for that very thing?

      • “You can whine about his fiery delivery as you like…”

        Fiery delivery?

        It’s more like the tantrum of a child who didn’t get the firetruck he expected at Christmas. You’re new here. He’s been whining about Trump winning almost every day since the election. This is the second time he’s dredged up that ancient recording to keep the Trump-hate going. He must be running out of material.

            • But, Joe we only know what you are doing here which is antagonizing people who you don’t know and who you make assumptions about. You have no idea either.

              • I don’t make assumptions about people. Note that I rarely make any personal comments. I deal with the ideas that are posted. On the other hand, almost everyone who posts against me attacks me personally or makes insulting comments.

                Not complaining. Just stating that for the record.

                • You make assumptions all the time about people. Every single assumption you made about me and blabbed about has been a lie.

                  In other news, thank you for the record number of thirty-five new members of my group. You and your friends here are really making it grow and I appreciate that.

                  One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


            • Seriously? You have shown us all, for over two days now, exactly what you are doing with your life. No one can think you do not do this same posturing and bullying on other sites either. Since you use anonymity and aliases, it is even easier. Don’t kid yourself. You are not only hurting the Catholic Church (which is fine by me), you are pushing people away from God and at least in my Bible that is a a sin.

              • I don’t bully anyone. Having and expressing an opinion you don’t like is not “bullying.” Standing up for what I believe is right and just is not “bullying.” It’s ironic that you are so sensitive to bullying that you see it where it doesn’t exist, yet are perfectly fine with the most helpless and needy among us being ripped to shreds in the name of “choice.”

                You even call the Catholic Church a “bully.”

                Was Mother Teresa a “bully” too?

                You just want me to shut up but I ain’t going to…

                • Again, “having and expressing an opinion” is not why I call you a bully. I call you a bully for pushing your opinions onto others in response to their honest sharing in a community conversation. They post and you pounce with your doctrine and repudiation. That is bullying.

                  True, standing up for what you believe is right and just is not bullying… until you do it TO someone as opposed to just posting your refutation of the original commentary by our host.

                  I do not think you understand irony because it is ironic that you are so sensitive to being called a bully yet are perfectly fine with being one. Claiming we support choice because we are “fine with the most helpless and needy among us being ripped to shreds” is laughable as you will never see your own culpability in that.

                  The Catholic Church is a known and well documented “bully.”

                  I don’t think Mother Teresa was a bully but she was more of a media campaign for the Catholic Church than saint who actually helped the poor. “There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ’s Passion. The world gains much from their suffering,” no saint in that remark.

                  Being a bully is your compulsion and mission, that is clear. But if you shut up, I would enjoy my free time.

                  • To call the Catholic Church a “bully” is to call Jesus a bully, since Christ is the head of our Church. Our Church goes back to day one when Christ gave the keys to Peter.

                    The Catholic Church is the only Church that has the fullness of Christianity and with no errors.

                    With the exception of the Greek Orthodox Church, you will find no other Church which has true Apostolic Succession, and in the Catholic Church alone will you find an unbroken line of popes and bishops going all the way back to Peter and the Apostles.

                    At Mass when the priest says the words of Consecration, “This is my Body…etc.” the bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ, and we have the privilege and benefit of receiving that at every Mass.

                    We are taught to love others, to feed the poor, to clothe the naked, to heal the sick, to instruct the ignorant, etc. We are not taught to “bully” anyone. The Church is here to help us make it to Heaven and live forever in happiness with Christ and the saints. The Church would not be doing anyone any favors to say that sins and disorders are not sins and disorders. That is love to do that. Tough love, but it’s better than leading someone astray and to hell. But nobody has to be a Catholic, and the Church bullies nobody to be or remain a Catholic or to follow Catholic teaching.

                    Even without the divine authority of the Catholic Church, it’s clear by the New Testament alone, courtesy of the Catholic Church, that homosexual acts are grave sins that can lead someone to Hell, so it’s a sin to say they are not and a sin to lead someone astray by encouraging them. Likewise for fornication and adultery, etc. It’s hard, but that’s the way it is. We are required to deny ourselves and pick up our crosses and follow Christ.

                    How is that “bullying”?

                    • It is bullying the way you use it against people. Show me where in the Bible or in the Catholic dogma that the sins are ranked? Which are the “grave sins that can lead someone to Hell” and the ones you Catholics can now live with? Take divorce for instance. Or child abuse, or spousal abuse, or any number of other sins the church manages to ignore, accept or no longer punish for? Hypocrisy writ large is all you offer.

    • Apparently, Jerry T, you don’t like the reflection you see in the mirror of John P’s prophetic words.

      You wrote ” You do an amazing job of painting a whole community with the same angry brush and lumping all those who disagree with your theology in the identical fundamentalist boat that, in reality, is occupied by only a narrow group of Christians.”

      Actually, were you to read carefully, instead of engaging in a knee-jerk reaction to kill the messenger, you would see that John P address as very specific group and given the vehemence of your response, I daresay that you yourself are a member of that group and don’t like the truth that has been revealed.

      Please allow the Holy Spirit to illumine your mind and soften your heart.

      • I have felt the same way about JP’s generalizations. This kind of post pushes people quite aggressively to accept his words wholeheartedly then sets us up to oppose the dissenting voice. There are people who come here who are hostile and indignant but not everyone. I have questions about the broad conclusions that are being drawn. I can see some good in each of the different christian perspectives– the progressive side, the conservative side as well as orthodox. Which is why I have real concerns about dividing christians into two camps rather than unifying them into one. It causes, for me, some challenges with comprehending the actual message. I am not sure what the two camps are supposed to be– because I don’t fit neatly on one side or the other.

        So I am not offended by what JP says but neither am I totally sold on the need for pushing people to take sides and to subsequently hate the other side. Aren’t we supposed to be open and welcoming each other without fear and suspicion? Yet, this post serves to alienate potential conservative christians believers who are open minded and have compassion. I get that conservatism is equated with certain characteristics liberals don’t like, but conservative ideas can have a balancing effect on liberals and vice versa. I think progressive christians need some conservative christians around despite the irritation factor. okay that’s all I wanted to say 🙂

        • Which generalizations, Kathy? John P does not generalize about all Christians. He is always very specific about which Christians he addresses.

          If you consider yourself an evangelical/fundie/Republican Christian who does not hold the values that John P warns us against, then you are not part of the group he addresses.

        • I agree that progressive Christians “need some conservative Christians around” though likely not for reasons you would agree with, but that is not the issue. The issue is when those conservative Christians make decisions and push memes that are false, not in line with Christian doctrine and make life harder for “the least of these” that we have to draw the bright line. That is what Rev. P is doing and I get it that some will not appreciate the mirror but it needs to be held up nonetheless.

          • Sandi Saunders, I frequently wonder what is that the conservatives dislike so about “progressive Christianity.” Because every time someone tells me what Progressive Christianity is it sound to me as if the so-called Progressive Christians have rediscovered the pre-Reformation church, especially the Early Church Fathers.

            Since the Early Church Fathers unanimously insist on feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the sick, providing the needy with what they need to thrive, I daresay it is this commitment to redistribute the wealth that is problematic.

          • He does not preach Christian doctrine. He opposes Christian doctrine. He takes out just the parts that he likes and are comfortable and leaves out the stuff that’s hard or would interfere with being accepted or building a following.

            I wouldn’t mind if he held up a mirror and made me feel uncomfortable with my ACTUAL sins and flaws. That would be good, though I don’t really need him for that since I’m well aware of them. What he is doing most of the time is attacking Christians for actually being Christians, and vilifying them for not being Liberal Democrat Christians.

            • See, there is the zealot’s disconnect. You cling to church doctrine, even if it hurts God’s children. You support church doctrine even if it is in contradiction to the greatest commandment, LOVE.

              YOU also take out the parts that do not conform to your version of church doctrine and worse you use it as a weapon and drive people from a relationship with God. Do you think that is what God wants any of us to do?

              If you do not need him, why are you here? Are you that self-absorbed?

              And no, he is not “attacking Christians for actually being Christians”, far from it! If you cannot see that true Christians would not vote for someone like Trump, no one can help you falling for propaganda but stop blaming others for calling it out. Many who voted for Clinton were not “Liberal Democrats” they just knew as Christians they could not support such a vile man. Many Christians just stayed home because they could not support Clinton but also could not support Trump. Stop acting like all Christians support that con man.

              • Sadly, Sandi, he picks and chooses from his church’s doctrine just as he picks and chooses from the Bible.

                In rebuttal, he will tell you that he is is not a “cafeteria Catholic” but one that believes all of Catholic doctrine. Except for the strong teaching on social justice. He ignores that almost entirely except for one small tiny bit of it.

              • Christians who did vote for Trump, did so for good reasons. I voted for Trump and I know that he committed some sins. I didn’t vote for his sins. I voted for his policies and against those of Clinton. That means I’m not a “true Christian”?

                I would be very interested in your definition of a “true Christian.” Are those who fall outside of your definition going to Hell? Will everyone who voted for Trump go to Hell?

                • You literally cannot converse or debate without distorting what is said can you?

                  Christians who voted for Trump, did so against the tenets of their faith and that is simply a fact. There were no “good reasons” and even on abortion (which seems to be one of the two that you care about) you will not get the punishment of women you seek.

                  Yes, you voted for Trump knowing that he has committed some grave sins (like adultery, fornication, greed, dishonesty, lying, cheating and more) whatever his policies, they cannot abrogate that truth. According to the teachings of Jesus, a true Christian would not make such a choice, would not back such policies and would not defend such a man. The bad people God used, changed their hearts and did good. Trump has shown no inclination to do any such thing.

                  You are not interested in anything that does not suit your “definition of a “true Christian.” That is the whole problem!

                  YOU are the one claiming that “those who fall outside of your definition [are] going to Hell”, not me. I cannot say who will or will not go to hell, but since I believe we will all be called to answer for our behavior and decisions, I do feel those who voted for Trump will have to answer for that if they claim to be a follower of Jesus. No way around it.

                  • I voted for Trump in good faith for good reasons. His opponent was not spotless either.

                    We don’t have to vote according to who is the best Christian. A Christian can vote for an atheist over a saint, if the atheist would do a better and more just job.

                    Sorry, but you’re not the authority or arbiter of who a Christian must vote for in order to be considered a “real Christian.”

                    I had not choice but to vote for Trump according to my informed conscience regarding important issues. You should be able to respect that. I can respect that you are still a Christian even though I think you voted for someone who is morally bankrupt and who would have led us down a bad road. But you voted that way in good faith and with good intentions. I can judge the candidates and their positions but I can’t judge the hearts of those who voted. Only God can.

            • I forgot to add that there is not one spec of Church doctrine that goes against true love or against Christ. That would be impossible since Christ is at the center and since our Church and its doctrine are guided by the Holy Spirit.

              • I also forgot to add that I am not a “cafeteria Catholic” like Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi. I don’t pick and choose the things that I like and discard the hard parts or those things that would make me unpopular.

              • I agree that “there is not one spec of Church doctrine that goes against true love or against Christ” but much of what so-called Christians practice, support and vote for does. Where are any of you instructed to use government to force your doctrine on a nation? Where are any of you forgiven for voting for those who will hurt “the least of these” with their policies? Where are any of you told to store up riches in Rome while children starve and die in pain? Where were any church leaders allowed to molest children? Where were any orphanage leaders allowed to abuse and scar children?

                Catholics (and evangelicals) love Christ, but you will not follow his teachings if it does not comport with your right-wing political view.

                • I know all about the priest scandals that hurt innocent people. They also hurt us regular Catholics and hurt other priests, the vast majority of which are good men.

                  My Catholic faith comes first. I do not regulate my faith according to my politics which is a very distant second. Conservative politics and politicians are far from perfect and many policies don’t align perfectly with my faith, but they are much closer than the alternative. When there are pro-life Democrats, the Democratic party will get my attention.

                  • You claim, “My Catholic faith comes first” and then you say “my politics which is a very distant second” yet say conservative politics and politicians “don’t align perfectly with my faith, but they are much closer than the alternative” which proves your faith does not come first. Anyone who claims their faith is first and still voted for the hate-filled agenda and the vile man Trump presented is being demonstrably false with themselves and with others. That is just not how being devout works.

                    • Lost the thread ….so I will place my reply to Gloriamarie here.

                      Gloriamarie you asked me “Which generalizations, Kathy?”

                      Well — Saying that “everyone who did this” “is this way” equals a generalization.

                      The best way to describe my perspective is egalitarian.

  31. I believe the fundamental question is to whom did Jesus entrust the great commission and encourage to love your neighbor as yourself? Was it the government of Judea, the empire of Rome, or those individuals who had walked side by side with Christ?

    Various politicians, pastors, and individuals maliciously use the name of Jesus as cover for their actions and beliefs, but I would point out that it is true of the Left and the Right; Republicans, Democrats, and independents. Dare I point out that some elected officials and private citizens, who support government sponsored financial assistance for the poor also encourage the termination of the lives of defenseless children still in the womb?

    The kingdom of God on earth, which followers of Jesus are to represent, would ideally be generous enough to provide more than current levels financial support (I have heard the average United States church tithe is 1-2%) for the poor, adopt more children without parents, and care for more widows. The government can facilitate this process, but the effectiveness of public charity is diminished by layers of governmental costs and does not bring direct glory to God.

    I would argue over time, those trapped in perpetual dependence on government assistance come to see the government as if it were God: an omnipotent force meting out justice (various forms, but specifically wealth redistribution) on whom they are dependent for their daily bread. It will be to the shame of the Church that it did not use more of its material wealth and time to reach out to the needy. In a world with enough Christ followers, the Church through private charity should be able to make government charity irrelevant.

    A great example is that in 362 AD, Julian the Apostate wrote to Arsacius, High-priest of Galatia, “For it is disgraceful that, when no Jew ever has to beg, and the impious Galilaeans [Jesus followers] support not only their own poor but ours as well, all men see that our people lack aid from us.” The early Church robbed Rome of glory and reflected it towards the throne of the Eternal God.

    • The Bible I read has God choosing leaders and inspiring them to care about the people they lead. Is there some part of that equation I have missed from Abraham, David, Moses, Solomon et al?

      • Yes, godly virtues of Jesus followers should permeate the culture in which they live. Jesus upon returning to the Father didn’t leave a new government, but a church. In fact, Judas Iscariot’s disillusionment with Jesus partially stemmed from Jesus not coming to earth to overthrow Roman rule and restore Israel as a dominant political power.

        Jesus charges the Church with being his hands and feet because the Church has experienced the grace of God and will give him the glory. Politicians vote on a bill for their constituents, legally rob other citizens through the process of taxation, redistribute the wealth locally, and then proclaim all the good they have done for their constituents in the next series of campaign ads. God receives no glory in that as a elected man or woman claims it all.

        Now, as for the people sitting in church. Many “Christians” are culturally so, but not spiritually. As I heard one wise man say, “A lot of goats think they are sheep.” The author of the article is right in his criticism of cultural “Christians”, but they are not the true measuring stick for true followers of Christ. I would hold out the early Church in the book of Acts as the best example of true followers of Christ giving sacrificially to care for the poor among them.

        Now as for the politics. Donald Trump is not a follower of Jesus Christ. He is a cultural “Christian” in name only. He has claimed the name of Jesus a time or two, but from he own mouth, he has never asked for forgiveness. See this —> It would be unfair to hold him to the standards of Jesus, given Trump does not know Him. The support for Trump from the “Christian Right” as the author puts it, is inexplicable. I spent make hours attempting to dissuade true Jesus followers from voting for Trump, to a large degree of success with the millennial generation. Other Jesus followers, on a moral level, couldn’t let Hillary win and risk (among other issues) the abortion (murder) of unborn children becoming an even larger problem than it already is. They reluctantly voted for Trump. I voted for neither.

        Every now and then, God is gracious enough to grant a people political leaders like David, a man after God’s own heart, but history shows this is an aberration. Most of the time we end up with a Nero, a Burlisconi, or a Saul.

        Here was the Lord’s warning about earthly political leadership to Israel. 1 Samuel 8:10 So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking for a king from him. 11 He said, “These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen and to run before his chariots. 12 And he will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some to plow his ground and to reap his harvest, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive orchards and give them to his servants. 15 He will take the tenth of your grain and of your vineyards and give it to his officers and to his servants. 16 He will take your male servants and female servants and the best of your young men[a] and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your flocks, and you shall be his slaves. 18 And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”

        I could contend, looking to politicians to solve the physical and spiritual problems or this world will always lead us to the disillusionment of Judas Iscariot.

        • I cannot disagree with what you say, but is not the point of “because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves” mean that God expects us to choose the best leaders we can from among the choices we have? And as you say, that would never be Trump. He more than proved what he was in his life and during the campaign. I submit it is just not that hard to do and many Christians still choose their political ideology over the teachings of Christ.

          I believe in the separation of church and state so I cannot claim I want a devout Christian to lead us in the ways of the Lord in the White House, but it is still galling when Christians so loudly support someone like Trump or insult someone like Jimmy Carter and then claim their faith is the most important thing to them or that they follow Christ.

          • Yes, what you said brings to mind: James 3:9 “With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. 11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.”

            Indeed, true followers of Christ would do well to observe this passage in all types of discourse including political. There will be those who are devoid of Christ, but claiming the name of “Christian” who do not adhere to this wisdom.

            Excellent discourse, Sandi.

          • I agree, especially your last paragraph. I am so fervently for separation of church and state, but the hypocrisy of some Christians is beyond the pale. Peace……

          • No, a Christian can be true to their faith while voting for a candidate you don’t think is “Christian enough,” or even for a non-Christian. You want separation of church and state, yet you disparage Christians for voting for a candidate that doesn’t pass your “Christian test”?

            Donald Trump was the best candidate and will do the most good for our country, in spite of the fact that we know about some naughty words he said ten year ago. That can be forgiven. His personal flaws can be overlooked as were those of Democrat predecessors.

            Jimmy Carter insults ended years ago. Why is that relevant? Jimmy Carter is a decent man and is pro-life. He wasn’t a good president, though.

            I made zero compromise with my Christian Catholic faith by voting for Trump, and I believe that’s the case for any other Christian. No doctrine or beliefs have been changed. I only had two candidates from which to choose. I couldn’t choose perfection because it wasn’t there in either of them. My faith helped me choose based on basic issues, such as the right to live.

            You should be able to respect that Christians voted in good conscience and with good intentions. They can do likewise for those who voted for Clinton. Why can’t you be so gracious?

  32. Do you remember back in 2011 when that old guy Harold Camping spent millions on some silly doomsday campaign about the end of Christianity and whatever?

    Well, it only took a few years for so-called christians to catch up and self-fulfill the prophecy. Let’s be honest, Christianity has lost any remaining credibility: America’s Capitalistic branch of Protestantism™ in particular.

    More and more people are understanding that American evangelics are to be expected of intellectual dishonesty, not because they are willing to lie to others but because how much they are willing to lie to themselves.

    • Random Reader wrote “More and more people are understanding that American evangelicals are to be expected of intellectual dishonesty, not because they are willing to lie to others but because how much they are willing to lie to themselves.”

      Oh so right. So very right. And not just evangelicals but every one of the Christian Right, which includes other groups in addition to evangelicals, not to mention all on the right of the political spectrum.

      One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.

  33. Wow!! What a crock! Blaming Christians for the depravity of the Progressives. Sorry, but your motronic attempt at projection is easily seen through. Now you’re just upset because the 100 year march of Progressivism (you know, the ideology that gave us such wonderful things like Eugenics, Communism, and the Holocaust) is being pushed back.

    • First, he is not “blaming Christians for the depravity of the Progressives” he is blaming Christians for the depravity and immorality of their own choices and political support.

      Yours is clearly the “motronic attempt at projection”. That “100 year march of Progressivism” contained many in the Christian community for the majority of it. Not all of course, many did cling to slavery, jim crow discrimination, lynchings, segregation, and fought against civil rights for black Americans as they did for the LGBTQ community. And if you think the “ideology that gave us such wonderful things like Eugenics, Communism, and the Holocaust” was only on “progressives” you are delusional and in denial is more than a river in Egypt.

      What you are pushing back against is the decency, morality, love and respect that Jesus taught. You know it, I know it, John knows it.

      • “slavery, jim crow discrimination, lynchings, segregation, and fought against civil rights for black Americans ”
        LOL!!! history challenged I see. Those are all Progressive hallmarks. You seem to forget that Progressivism is based on racism (i.e. Eugenics, et. al.).

        “What you are pushing back against is the decency, morality, love and respect that Jesus taught. You know it, I know it, John knows it.”
        You are a moron. Please show where Jesus ever said “And instead of charity, gain the reins of government and steal from others”

        • Speaking of being “history challenged” you prove you are. Under no rubric known to man were “slavery, jim crow discrimination, lynchings, segregation, and fought against civil rights for black Americans ” any such thing as “Progressive hallmarks”. That is just plain idiotic. You seem not to know what Progressiveness means.

          I grant you the political parties realigned and the Republicans who were progressives became regressive and the Democrats who were regressive became progressive, but that is not what your false point said. By your logic, the Confederacy was progressive. Hitler was progressive.

          What you need to worry more about is that the rhetoric of the right today is far more aligned with that of the eugenics movement than liberals of today: “parasites,” “the unemployable,” “low-wage races” and the “industrial residuum.” sounds similar to “somebody else’s babies” “wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson” “the NFL all too often looks like a game between the Bloods and the Crips” and “welfare queen”, to normal people.

          YOU are the one who wants to claim that the “decency, morality, love and respect that Jesus taught” cannot apply to the LGBTQ and those who support a woman’s right to choose. There are no such qualifiers. You know it, I know it, John knows it.

          You are the moron if you believe what we are saying is “instead of charity, gain the reins of government and steal from others”. If you do not want to live in a society that makes efforts to care for those in need, go live in Somalia, I hear there is land available.

          The Bible is clear on the whole “render therefore to Caesar …” idea. Jesus taught respect for governmental authorities. Jesus never said to change government just to look forward to his reign when he returns.

          • You are truly moronic. First, anyone with even a cursory knowledge of history knows that the “realignment” canard is false. Second, if you don’t think Eugenics and such were Progressive creations, then you are a typical dupe.

            Must suck to so ignorant of both history and economics. Also, your Biblical knowledge id even more shoddy as is evidenced by your misrepresentation of the “render unto Caesar” quote.

            Next moron statement: “YOU are the one who wants to claim that the “decency, morality, love and respect that Jesus taught” cannot apply to the LGBTQ ”
            Really? please point to where I ever said any such thing?

            Come back when you have something greater than a middle school level of education.

            • Keep digging and insulting, it will not change the fact that you are wrong. Actually “anyone with even a cursory knowledge of history” knows well that history has had several political realignments, there are even studies of them.

              Since so many very prominent, educated people supported eugenics it was clearly popular in more than just progressive thought, and if you do not know that, no one can help you. Mankind has struggled with what to do with those deemed “inferior” and those who were mentally incapable for centuries and some very, very bad ideas came out of that struggle. But you cannot only blame one ideology for it.

              The Bible has many points telling us to obey and support government.

              Do you think your offensive posts make you look smarter or more informed? Hint: They do not.

              Come back when you have something greater than an elementary school yard bully taunts to offer.

              • Sandi Saunders, I find myself wonder if Tom Cottone is a new alias for Joe ACA as he seems to bully people in the exact same way.

              • As usual, you are wrong. Eugenics was a completely Progressive creation. Tell me, what’s your degree in Political Science and Economics? I didn’t think so.

                • Again, Progressive Era eugenics was mainstream. It was supported in churches, it was supported in economic schools, it was supported across all political ideologies and parties, it was supported by scientists, it was supported by politicians from Theodore Roosevelt to Woodrow Wilson, so the practice was not “a completely Progressive creation” or undertaking. No one needs a degree in Political Science and Economics to know this.

                  • LOL!! You name Teddy Roosevelt and Wilson, two of the biggest Progressives of the era. Nice way to try and deflect from the horrific roots of your bankrupt ideology.

              • Poor Sandi, your ignorance revealed, so now you try to deflect. Pointing out your hypocrisy and dishonesty is not bullying, it is treating you with the contempt you have earned.

                • Even if someone is ignorant about a specific subject (which I am not suggesting that Sandi is) they do not deserve to be treated with contempt. Your behaviour throughout this comment thread has been dishonourable, distasteful, and aggressively demeaning. You exhibit the classic pattern of a bully. If you do not wish to have that label attached to you, the simple remedy is to stop behaving that way.

                  • Amen, Patricia.

                    Have you noticed how closely Tom C’s rhetoric matches that of Joe ACP? Makes me suspicious that they are one and the same person.

                • Charles, how soon will you have that troll free blog ready? Sooner rather than later, I hope.

                  But in the meantime, for those who are sick and tired of reading the trolls

                  One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.


            • Your reply is all insult and ridicule without anything to back it up. Maybe you should come back when you have learned that behaving like a middle school bully is never acceptable.

            • You remind me of this boy who stood out front of my house one day talking to another boy about what a moron a certain girl in their class was because she didn’t already know a mathematical concept. I hoped they would move on so I wouldn’t have to listen to that crap, but they didn’t.

              When I couldn’t stand it anymore, I went out and started asking the boy some questions about classical music. Each time he didn’t know the answer, I shamed him. When I saw that he was deeply shocked by not being the expert on something, I backed it up and told him that that just happened to be my field of study and I absolutely did not expect him to have known the answers. He would very likely know those facts in the future, but not knowing them now did not make him a moron. And neither did the girl need to be labelled a moron. There were probably lots of things that she knew that he didn’t yet. I could see that the boy understood and he was unlikely to make this mistake again.

              • Good for you, Patricia. What a way of turning it around. I could have been that girl because math defies my understanding. It’s like a form of dyslexia but that’s ok because I have stuff going for me. A very wise teacher taught me that when I was in despair over trying to learn math.

                • I am glad you had that teacher. I grew up with teachers and parents saying that if you didn’t excel in everything you were stupid. I was good in some things and not so good in other things, therefore I was stupid. It took a long time to be able to see my own strengths.

                  • And yet, you have been that teacher to others. And you are still being that teacher here. Thank you, Patricia.

                    Yes, I was fortunate to have that teacher. She encouraged me in so many ways.

                    We really need to focus attention on what kids are good at instead the negative.

    • Well, now, Tom Cottone, proves he is yet another person who is not an attentive reader. John P does not blame all Christians in general. Were you to pay attention, he clearly blames only those among the Christian Right who said these things.

      John P has a divinely inspired gift of exhortation that the speaks with a prophetic voice which hold a mirror in front of his readers. Don’t like the reflection? Repent and do better, otherwise suffer the fate that all who have ignored the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures. You will recall what the Assyrians and the Babylonians did? And why?

      • To be honest Gloriamarie you are sounding like a fundamentalist Christian except your position is Progressive.

        you said, “Repent and do better, otherwise suffer the fate that all who have ignored the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures. You will recall what the Assyrians and the Babylonians did? ”

        It’s very close to the fire and brimstone type of preaching don’t you think? Fear and condemnation.

        Just being honest here. Is this the message these days?

                • What she is getting at is that you are not to question anything she says. She will never admit she was wrong and will worm her way out of it and if you persist, even if you are in agreement with her politics, she will shun you or bully you. She is the real bully of this forum, in her own very conniving way. Besides that, I think her constant self-promotion is pretty awful, besides the fact that it interrupts the flow of reading posts. I’ve never seen anything like it. If this place were moderated, she’d get the ax for it.

                  • She does a better job than you of providing helpful information. And she really cares about people. I think your constant agitation of her caused her undue stress and aggravation. She is harmless compared to you. You know her situation and yet you bullied her and insulted her faith. If you have a complaint remember that many of us have long memories and know who started this whole thing. It was you and your demeaning comments.

                    • No Kathy A, it was that she was playing the same infuriating manipulative games with me that she is playing with you and it was extremely frustrating. She knows exactly what she is doing. I should have learned sooner, but now I just skip over her posts. Problem solved.

                    • Well if she is playing games then she is completely oblivious to it, unlike you who is intentionally playing games.

      • I use these things called “reason” and “facts”. He makes a deliberately false narrative that ignores actual history. I believe in natural rights. You NEVER have a right to someone else’s labor, that’s called “slavery”. Perhaps instead of making meaningless comments, you should try to make a substantive argument. Not my fault the author’s position is devoid of factual support.

        • I am not familiar with “natural rights” – does that mean every man and woman has the right of voice over their own body?

          • What is “the right of voice”? Also, are you serious that you don’t know what natural rights are? That’s basic Political Theory.

            • I am pretty sure you understood exactly why I asked what I did. It had nothing to do with money.
              I also believe the government does not have the right to anyone’s voice over their body.

              After slavery there was the draft. That is a hard one for me. As long as the men who start the wars sit back in their cushy offices and send others out to die or have their lives forever changed and then come back to be treated like throw away humans, I find it horrific, but I have no answers.

              You can only relate slavery to money taken from you by the government?

              Do you drive on highways/freeways? Do you use a library? Are you free because someone died for your freedom?
              Life is messy. You live amongst others. You are on the internet so obviously you do choose not to be alone.

          • Yes Joanne, the concept of natural rights (life, liberty, and property) would indeed mean “every man and woman has the right of voice over their own body”.

  34. oops wasn’t finished.
    Just wanted to state that I have used these words over and over about how the “Religious Right” was forecasting and prophesying their own destruction, using Jesus as a Scapegoat to fill their pockets and turn others against each other. Unfortunately, it was more than just a kiss., or 30 pieces of silver, more and more innocent people will be suffering and destroyed because the Religious Right has embraced Satan and all of his kingdom.. BUT, WE ALL KNOW THE END OF THE STORY., SO COME JESUS COME..and deal with this blight…

  35. Pingback: Day 76 – Damage Cats

  36. Pingback: Day 76 | My Scrying Corner

  37. Posted by Sandi Saunders:

    It is bullying the way you use it against people. Show me where in the Bible or in the Catholic dogma that the sins are ranked? Which are the “grave sins that can lead someone to Hell” and the ones you Catholics can now live with? Take divorce for instance. Or child abuse, or spousal abuse, or any number of other sins the church manages to ignore, accept or no longer punish for? Hypocrisy writ large is all you offer.

    There was no space above to respond.

    There is much here that I makes me wonder where you got such ideas. I’ve never heard much of this before.

    I’m not sure what you mean by sins being “ranked” unless you mean the distinction the Church makes between a “mortal” and a “venial” sin. For example murder is a moral sin and stealing a piece of candy is a venial sin. A mortal sin that was not repented of can send someone to Hell, a venial sin won’t, however that is not to condone venial sins, since they can darken a soul and make one more susceptible to committing a mortal sin.

    There can be mitigating circumstances, however. A person must understand the gravity of the act and commit it with full consent of his will in order for him to be culpable for a mortal sin. A mentally ill person who murders someone might not be guilty of a mortal sin if he didn’t really understand what he was doing. An abortion is objectively a mortal sin, but a woman who has an abortion under duress, such as being pressured or threatened by a spouse to have one, or out of desperation and not thinking clearly would likely not have committed a mortal sin. Some things that would be considered mortal sins would include fornication, robbery, rape, divorce and remarriage, use of contraception, etc. Some of these of course are much more serious than others, but all cross the line into being very serious offenses against God, however once again there could be mitigating circumstances. And all can be forgiven by making a good confession and an amendment to avoid the sin in the future.

    I don’t know what you mean by sins “we Catholics now can live with.” Ideally we should all be rooting out all the sin in our lives. There is nothing today that is not a sin that was a sin yesterday or years ago. Nothing has changed in that regard. Moral absolutes are absolute and don’t change according to the time, personal desires, or politics.

    Divorce and remarriage is a serious issue and if a Catholic has done that, he or she may no longer receive Holy Communion until that situation is fixed, because it’s an adulterous situation. Sometimes an annulment can be granted, which is based on examining the previous marriage to see if at the time of the marriage it was valid, but there is absolutely no guarantee that will happen.

    You might not like Catholicism, and you don’t have to be one or be bound by her doctrine, but there is nothing hypocritical about it.

    • I think talking about sin is an useless endeavour since each of us have our own burdens and flaws to deal with. Rehearsing sins and what a particular church defines as sin only distracts us from looking honestly at ourselves.

      For example a good person can feel better about themselves after looking at a list of sins because …a disciplined… good person can keep the commandments fairly well– like Job did or the young rich man. But the good person needs to look more deeply at their biases and prejudices– their jealousy and pride.

      Their sin could be one of looking down on the least of us or hating their enemy or bad mouthing the person they don’t like.

      Jesus is gentle with all of us and if we take some time, to rest and listen, he will show us what we need to repent of.

      We don’t need to shout at others or call them A-holes to point out their sin. In fact all the shouting and badgering and swearing does is block out the loving voice of God.

    • Just because you deny the hypocrisy everyone sees, does not diminish it. Christians choose which sins they can accommodate (annulment and confessional forgiveness for example) and which sins they need the government to legislate against (LGBTQ and abortion rights). It does not get any more hypocritical than that since we all know the Bible, which is the word of God all Christians serve, does not rank sin or say punish one more or worse than another. People do that, God does not.

      • So you are “sola scriptura” then?

        How do you know you can trust what the Bible says?

        People wrote the Bible. The Bible says that a Church was build upon Peter. The Bible says that Christ told the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would “teach them all things.” But the Bible also said that Jesus did and said so much that it could not all be contained in many books.

        The Apostle Paul, who condemns all sexual sins including same-sex sexual behavior spoke about works that would be burned, but the soul would still survive that, and was referring to the effects of venial sin.

        Doesn’t it make sense that a murderer and a kid who stole a piece of bubble gum are not in the same boat regarding the level of sin?

        The New Testament came from within the Catholic Church. We wrote the book. The Catholic Church has the sole authority to interpret it. The Catholic Church is the very Church established by Christ. All the other sects have elements of Christianity, but only in the Catholic Church subsists the fullness of Christianity–all that God has revealed to man.

        You don’t have to like it or believe it, though if you did an open minded and open hearted investigation of your own and left your prejudices behind, you would accept it for yourself and become a Catholic yourself.

        I’ll concede there are hypocritical Catholics but I don’t concede that Catholicism is. It’s far from that. And that’s why the Catholic Church is persecuted and why anti-Catholicism is a bigotry that is tolerated.

        • John, one might also note that it is impossible, sola scriptura, to prove the doctrine of sola scriptura.

          The Bible makes the following claims:

          1. All of Scripture is inspired by God.
          2. The Word of God is without error.

          It does not make this claim:

          1. All of Scripture is the Word of God.

          In actuality, the phrase “Word of God” is applied only to God’s own spoken and written Word, and the Word Made Flesh in Christ Jesus.

  38. I am way behind in reading the comments, so far so that I might not make the attempt except I am terribly curious to know what is going on here on this blog that a record number of forty people today alone have already joined my group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff. All of them cite that they need to fight the conservatives posting here. So I guess it’s been wild. And as it is only 2:45 PM there is plenty of time for the conservatives to double that number of new participants. Thank you for your hard work convincing people to stand up to evil.

    One way to persist in resistance is my FB group, Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff, where I post actions, petitions, info, actual news, evidence, facts. There’s a pinned post that I highly recommend people read. I also ask a screening question so I can keep the spammers and the trolls out. All who read this are invited.

  39. Its the Christian Right trying to save this nation from the fall into that abyss.
    What are you piss ants doing other than following that anti Christ into the bowels of hell by hating the people working hard to restore America?

    • The sad thing is, you likely believe all of that, but it does not make it true. You may think Trump and right-wingers want to “save this nation” but all evidence says they just want to control it for their own purposes and they do not seem to have as much to do with Christ as they do with hate and bigotry.

  40. what the christian right did not tell you, was that it would be the christian right making it all possible, by shifting blame for everything wrong to those who do not agree with the “christian” right.

    They did not tell you that their churches and church organizations would make it possible by duping a bunch of otherwise good people to deceive and hate others, and still believe that Christ wanted it that way.

  41. One thing I can say about this post… In spite of (or perhaps because of) how polarizing this topic seems to be, it’s certainly brought to light just how judgemental those who identify as “Christian Right” can be.

    For instance, as soon as someone says that they’re anything other than straight, or that they’re pro-choice (which does not necessarily equate to pro-abortion, despite that the right wants to believe), or that they’re tolerant of people with other beliefs, or, in some cases, even that they’re of an ethnicity other than European, they’re shouted down, they’re attacked, they’re called “idiots”, they’re told they’re going to burn in whatever version of hell the Christian Right is promoting this week.

    And it’s sad.

    It’s sad that these people refuse to show any empathy. It’s sad that these people refuse to walk even an inch in someone else’s shoes, much less a mile. It’s sad that these people refuse to look at these issues from any other perspective than the one they’re spoon-fed by their preachers. It’s sad that people like them can harbor so much hatred toward someone like me. It’s sad that, because of religion, so many of them are so willing to turn their backs on their family and friends because they may be gay, or trans, or even have a different political perspective. It’s sad that they can be so willing to force their children to go through the hell that is reparative therapy just because they don’t love who their parents want them to, even though, scientifically, it’s been proven to be a sham.

    I would say I have pity for them, but I don’t. At one time, I have a great deal of pity for the Christian Right, because I found it unbelievable that people could be so small-minded, ignorant, and, often, downright evil. But, here in this thread, it’s all on display. The vitriol, the hate, the closed-mindedness, the bigotry, and the ignorance.

    And to what end? What does it accomplish, being so closed-minded? What’s gained from it? What does anyone gain from it? Sure, you can say that your book says that you’re “right” about these subjects, but what about those of us with a different perspective? Do you just tune us out? Why not take a moment and look at the world through the eyes of someone like me? Why not take the time to try to understand a different perspective? Why not take the time to try to learn about someone like me, to get to actually know someone like me, so you can see that the way I live my life isn’t just a “phase”, that who I love isn’t some “abomination”, that I can be myself and continue to make positive contributions to my community? Can anyone sincerely live their life in such a bubble that they’re literally blind to anyone who isn’t exactly the same as themselves? I would hope not, and yet…

    It’s sad. It’s depressing. And it’s shameful that, in 2017, someone like me has to wonder which of her rights as a person are going to be stripped this week because someone hiding behind the banner of religion refuses to even attempt to understand me.

    • As an LGBT Christian, I understand exactly what you mean, Caitlyn. My parents are starting to come around to accepting that this is how God made me, just another part of the human condition. However, the most outwardly “religious” of our extended family refuse to communicate with me and actively promote misinformation and confusion among our other relatives.

      That “anti-other” behaviour is so against the clarity of Christ’s words to us: to simply love God and love our neighbor. I wish they would at least try to walk a mile, an block, an *inch* even! in my path to learn empathy and compassion toward us. It’s hard to forgive, but I’m trying.

  42. You’re only half right, John.
    Yes, there are terrible people in the Christian Right.
    But the fact is, anyone who gives themselves over to Jesus, anyone who actually believes there is an invisible being who answers prayers, anyone who adopts 2000-year-old mythology as an important guide to gaining life after death is not only gullible, hypocritical, misguided, irresponsible, and supporting an abusive, even murderous way of life.

  43. Pingback: Bobbing Around Volume 16 Number 10 | Bobbing Around

    • I meant this as a response to another post. I totally agree with this article had have ever since Trump appeared on the scene with the Big Time talking heads for the Evangelicals.

  44. “when fascism comes to america, it will be wrapped in a flag and holding a cross” – loosely attributed to Sinclair Lewis

  45. They’re the Anti-Christ they used to warn us about from the pulpit. And they’re leading those who choose to follow them. I chose to leave them and follow Christ.

  46. Many I know voted for Trump because of tax reform an issue ofwhich I am not totally against…but it seems there is a hard time making it fairer and less complicated. These I speak of are stalwart business people who I respect…..BUT I am now watching them cringe with every tweet…watching them cringe with every crazed follower almost in a trance claim that Trump is ordained by God…watching them cringe at the next charges coming down against Trump’s henchmen by the Special Prosecutor. They are starting to have a crises of conscience over one issue…”tax reform”. If this is so wanted against so many other disgusting things that Trump says or more scarily what sociopathic lengths his supporters go to to keep him front and center, I must ask them… simple “tax reform” worth this all of these hateful mounting externalities thrust upon the rest of us, the American people?
    I know there are some (in fact I know some) that will deliriously defend him to the end. For what it is worth, they should be “out there” as examples for the rest us lemmings to study and learn from. Trump is not their hero. He is their mimic…their voice-piece, playing and singing their darkest hateful fears and they are loving every minute of it. Just like separating the wheat from the chaff, there will be a conclusion and we will see if we are the better for it.
    It’s a bitter pill for sure.
    Also, I cannot help but think those that vehemently flash the expletives about Liberal or Socialist against the rest of us who question Trump have nothing further to offer but just those non-arguments (except for tax reform….maybe or abortion….maybe) for supporting him….or more precisely their selfish selves.
    This is pretty sad stuff.

  47. I’m struggling here, and hope that someone can offer clarity out of the confusion. It seems that almost all comments are made by people who profess to be Christians and on the side of life, kindness, compassion, and all things godly, yet almost everyone has said something nasty at some point. Names have been called, and insults hurled, and I have to wonder about scriptural quotes about spiritual fruits when those references are paired with condescension and mean-spirited words. As a former Christian who is seeking and considering a return, I find that this is something I see often, and it makes me wonder – why would I look for a spiritual home with people who consistently say one thing and do another?

    I’m asking a genuine question here, and assure you that my intent is not to create further divisiveness but to understand.

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