A lot can change in a day…
Last week, influential Christian pastor Eugene Peterson came out in support of LGBTQ inclusion and gay marriage. It was a massive tremor in the Christian community and a potential topping point for many in the battle for full LGBTQ rights in the Church.
The next day, renowned Christian bully book chain LifeWay, typically and immediately threatened a ban of all Peterson’s writings, including his hugely successful and popular paraphrase of the Bible called The Message. This has become their go-to response to divergent views.
The same day, Peterson retracted his comments, LifeWay forgave him, and just like that, all was well in the land of Jesus-based capitalism and institutional bigotry that unfortunately much of American Christianity has become.
This was a multi-faceted dagger:
It was a sickening deja vu for the already battered LGBTQ community, who watched another high-profile supporter badgered into silence or reversal by the Christian subculture powers-that-be.
It was a sad repetition for allies in the Church, who once again witnessed a Christian leader’s LGBTQ support wilt under the pressure of financial or professional damage.
It was same old, same old for the watching world outside organized Christianity, who’ve now come to expect it to always do the wrong thing when it comes to the rights of marginalized communities.
It was yet another reminder to us all, that courage is costly and that many people, even really good people aren’t willing to pay.
We shouldn’t be surprised at LifeWay’s bullying or Peterson’s back-peddling or the LGBTQ-hating Christians’ shouts of “Hallelujah” right now. Jesus told us this would happen.
The Bible calls it Mammon—the distorted worship of wealth and position that turns religion toxic. Jesus says with complete clarity that one cannot worship this and God simultaneously. He warns that the love of money will pervert the spiritual pursuits of good people, and sadly these days there’s still good money to be made on the backs of the LGBTQ community. Hatred is still big business, especially in the Bible Belt Baptist stronghold of America’s South—where if people can’t get you to align with their theology, they’ll cut you of at the kneecaps by threatening your livelihood. Peterson may not be primarily motivated by this greed and gain—but those who are have surely caused his tragic public change of heart. His reversal speaks more to the motives of those who pressured him into it, than the man himself. There’s something insidious about churches and organizations who turn the screws to voices of dissent or difference and threaten their livelihoods and legacies.
What’s unfolded since his initial support is the worst kind of religious dog-and-pony show. No one actually believes that after decades in the public eye, his recent support of the LGBTQ community was actually merely a two-day glitch, a momentary error in judgment, or a simple misquoting. (Peterson has been rumored to have made similar LGBTQ-affirming statements off the record at seminars and retreats for years.) I don’t even think the people at LifeWay believe that either, but there’s gold to be mined here—and so authenticity and truth are of little concern to them or to their Christian brethren.
Neither apparently, is the irreparable damage that’s been done to the LGBTQ community this week; those who serve faithfully in churches throughout this country, those who regularly fill the pews of congregations, the teens whose suicide rates are exponentially higher than their cis-heterosexual counterparts, those seeking God and being once again told that they are less-than loved, less than worthy of the good things of this life. Every bit of suffering such events manufacture for so many families, doesn’t seem to matter to these Mammon-lovers—the violence it consents to, the enmity it brings to faith communities, the message it sends to already hurting and vulnerable communities.
At the end of the day, Eugene Peterson’s reversal has reminded us that far too many American Christians ultimately serve a big green God—and that this seductive paper idol often drives churches and organizations to crush dissenting voices; it turns good, brave men’s feet to clay; it causes Christians to treat people made in the image of God like they’re garbage; it makes already hurting people again feel their inherent worth is up for debate.
I don’t know Eugene Peterson personally, and his writings have been transformational for me. He’s put the Scriptures in a voice that people can easily approach and understand, and by all accounts he seems like a really decent human being whose faith matters greatly to him. Having said that, I’m disgusted by the cowardice of his speedy retreat and the sucker punch to the gut it has been to my LGBTQ friends, who once again are used like piñata by the Christian Right; something to be beaten up for entertainment. He’s going to have to live with whatever the truth is about his personal convictions, and he’s going to have to also carry the weight of his acquiescing—on the lives of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people whose enemies are now rushing to use him as further justification to be terrible in Jesus’ name.
LifeWay isn’t a person, so it doesn’t have a soul—which is fortunate, because if it did have a soul, I’d tell it to be very worried about it. In the Gospels, Jesus doesn’t once condemn a person for their gender identity or sexuality, but he says a great deal about religious people who sell their souls in order to gain wealth and about those who make life hell for the least of these. He’s not at all okay with them.
In the wake of this disheartening turn of events, I can only reiterate my support for the LGBTQ community; for their full inclusion in the Church, for their right to marry and serve in ministry and to adopt children. I can only keep working to make American Christianity a place of love for everyone.
Meanwhile I’ll lament Eugene Peterson’s public change of heart because of what it says, perhaps not as much about him, as about my faith tradition’s sickness, about the way it has lost the plot, about the pain it causes.
Most of all I’ll grieve the damage still being done to beautiful people, simply trying to walk this planet without having to fear religious people.
To Hell with the big green God.
John, thank you for your ability to articulate what a decision like Peterson’s means beyond the superficiality of the “green god” reasoning. I was upset when I read about his retraction, but mostly because of my condemning the monetary justification behind his decision. You have helped me realize the much broader and insidious results that his decision means for those affected, particularly because he is such an influential person in the “Christian” culture.
I agree Kathleen. The one part about this whole thing is probably that has not occurred to him but it has to some of us. He can easily fabricate a “no” for the Lifeway bullies. He will be fine and OK because he is not the true target of the bullies, he was just in the way. Maybe he thinks of this fight as an issue. It is real easy to forget that this “issue” is about people being hurt by a church for no good reason. Maybe he needs to talk to a LGBTQ Christians to find out what kind of pain this inflicted on them, not what he imagines that he has done, but what he has really done. Maybe he knows not what he really did.
The situation reminds me of Hobby Lobby trying to tell its female employees what they can and cannot do with their bodies. Big giant seems to think they have the right to tell people what they can and cannot read.
I am sick of the whole thing. What is it with people who insist that the “Bible clearly says” this or that who then fail to see that the “Bible clearly says” is bounden duty of all who share the name of Christ to live as He did. It is the bounden duty of all who bear the name of Christ to love as He does.
God loves everyone. From the most innocent to the most heinous criminals, God loves us all.
We are to love our neighbors as ourselves as God first loved us. The “Bible clearly says so.”
Gloriamarie,
If god loves us all he has an odd way of showing it, considering how the world has always worked. If I had been lucky enough to have had children I sure as heck would not have been found to be much of a parent if I had pulled the things he’s pulled on his own creation.
I am beginning to think I read and entirely different bible. The god of the bible clearly did not love us all. After all he killed man women and children in a flood.
He ordered the death of others at the hands of his followers. So how is it that you can say that god loves us all?
God sacrificed his own son for the sake of our sins, ones we still commit to this day? Ones he himself has committed..
Apparently he didn’t think it out well, or the story is complete nonsense.
What father would sacrifice is son for the sins of humanity, knowing full well that it would not change anything? And what god who is all powerful needs to resort to such a simple minded solution.
Are you going to tell me that an entity that can create an entire universe couldn’t come up with a better solution.
jaime, maybe G-d is a slob just like us. Maybe this is all a Matrix-like simulation and G-d is the master programmer who puts too much faith in his coding abilities. Why else would he fill the universe to the brim with stupidity first and hydrogen second?
jaime, may I suggest that you may be reacting to how the Bible has been interpreted, not what it actually says? And please bear in mind every act of translation is itself an interpretation.
You cite Noah’s Flood as God’s action to destroy all of humanity. Well, for one thing, the Flood never happened. One way we know that is that it is in the part of the Genesis that is included in the Wisdom Literature which makes it mythos. Not “myth” in the sense of fake news, but “myth” in the sense that it conveys a truth in a story which is not to be taken literally but allegorically.
Another thing to remember is that the Bible was written by human beings. So when it is written in Joshua that God tells them to kill every man, woman, child, oxen, goat, whatever, that is not to be understood literalistically. Not even the Jewish commentaries indicate that.
It has to be read within the concept of the Hebrews, a chosen and holy people, crossing into their promised land where they will worship the One God so the destruction of every man, woman, child, oxen, goat, whatever, is symbolic language to make the land pure.
It is also obvious that the Hebrews did not do this because when we read further in the Hebrew Scriptures we see the clash of cultures between the Hebrews and the indigenous people of the area.
As for the Father’s sacrifice of His Son, I personally reject that interpretaion for the simple reason that it is less than five hundred years old, thought up by John Calcins, although hints of it are found in Anselm of Canterbury.
Substitutionary Atonement is not what the church taught for the first fifteen hundred years and is not what is taught in Orthodox of Roman Catholic Churches. many in the Anglican Communion also reject it.
“Are you going to tell me that an entity that can create an entire universe couldn’t come up with a better solution.”
Actually, God did. An alternative to the bloodthirsty narrative is “The Heresy of Penal Substitution Making God bound by necessity” which may be read at https://www.facebook.com/Abbot-Tryphon-1395030584153681/?fref=nf
The name of the god in Evangelical Christianity is Greed and his followers walk the path he sets for them to their eternal perdition. Small-minded people with a complete inability to understand something that is beyond words, who use religion as an excuse to do whatever they want because “they are saved” and so won’t suffer the consequences.
There’s going to be a lot of very surprised folks on Judgment Day as mentioned in their own book: they think they are sheep, but according to the Judge, they are not and off to hell they go.
I have said it before: there is a chasm so wide between “religious” and “spiritual” as to make the terms mutually incompatible. Religion is a man-made construct used to control the ignorant or deluded. Spiritual is a Natural response to the Sacredness of every living being, from single celled organism through humans and the beyond, out into the Universe; it’s a way of life that does not require the trappings of “religion”.
I am NOT a religious person. I am, however, a deeply spiritual being. I do the right thing not because I fear eternal damnation, but because it is the logical and loving way to do things. I’m not perfect, not even by a long shot. I am human–no wait, “I am not a human being having a spiritual experience–I am a spiritual being having a human experience.” One of my favorite quotes.
Greed and worshiping Greed is the fast lane to Hell, no matter how many times you go to that special building or wear those special clothes or how many souls you’ve “saved”. As John mentioned, Jesus had some harsh and very pointed words for those who thought their wealth (or their religious practices) were a “get out of Hell free” card.
Eugene Peterson has the right to change his mind–but every decision, every single choice, carries a consequence of some sort. He may find that the price for his recant is more than his soul can pay.
Dear John Pavlovitz:
The tiny, electronic impressions my cursor creates on my magic, pixel screen are weightless. But if these words DID weigh a pound a piece, this phrase would be worth its weight in gold.
Jesus-based capitalism
Thank you for this!
Blessings!
PS: Eventually, people will stop listening to the dictates of both capitalism and LifeWay in order to get on with life.
Once again, John tells it as it is. I don’t know why Peterson retracted his statement overnight, I don’t know what pressures were brought to bear, I don’t know anything except that one day he spoke Godly words and the next day retracted them.
I can only imagine how betrayed LGBTQ must feel. I personally will continue the fight for civil liberties and social justice for ALL of God’s creation.
I do this on FB at Gloriamarie’s Progressive Stuff and all who wish to fight for civil liberties and social justice for ALL of God’s creation are welcome to join. Please sure to answer the screening question.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/gloriamariesprogressivepetitions/
Thanks, John! As a member of the LGBT community, I appreciate your words and support greatly.
Read this article before I read John’s piece and I thought how much this also needs to be said.
“Christianity Doesn’t Need a Champion. We’ve Already Got One.
By Ryan Galloway 7-14-2017”
“In trying to court believers, President Trump is hitting on fears and worries held by many evangelical Americans. But in truth he appears to be a greater threat to the faith than he is a benefit.
“Recently, the president’s rhetoric around Christian belief is that it is something to defend. Trump promises that under his presidency, the Christian faith will be bolstered through his political support. Set aside the conversation on how this measures with the separation of church and state for a moment — Trump speaks of a war, against culture, mainstream media, and liberals, and he has proposed himself as the champion of the Christian right. And this week’s prayer meeting between the president and evangelical supporters shows some prominent Christian leaders have accepted Trump into this position.”
More may be read and if one does, one learns who the champion is that we already have, at
https://sojo.net/articles/christianity-doesn-t-need-champion-we-ve-already-got-one
Stumbled across this article and I found it quite an interesting read, raising some great questions. John may or may not choose to post it, but I thought John might be interest to read it.
“The Agonizing Ordeal of Eugene Peterson — You Might Be Next
“Those who have fled for security to the house of evasion must know that the structure has crumbled. It always does.”
by Albred Mohler
“Consider these lessons from Eugene Peterson’s ordeal.
“First, there is nowhere to hide. Every pastor, every Christian leader, every author — even every believer — will have to answer the question. The question cannot simply be about same-sex marriage. The question is about whether or not the believer is willing to declare and defend God’s revealed plan for human sexuality and gender as clearly revealed in the Bible.
“Second, you had better have your answer ready. Evasive, wandering, and inconclusive answers will be seen for what they are. Those who have fled for security to the house of evasion must know that the structure has crumbled. It always does.
“Third, if you will stand for the Bible’s clear teachings on sexuality and gender, you had better be ready to answer the same way over and over and over again. The question will come back again and again, in hopes that you have finally decided to “get on the right side of history.” Faithfulness requires consistency — that “long obedience in the same direction.”
“That is what it means to be a disciple of Christ, as Eugene Peterson has now taught us. In more ways than one.”
The entire essay may be read at: http://www.albertmohler.com/2017/07/17/eugene-peterson/
Evasion is perfectly ok. Although I wear my affirming badge with Pride (pun intended, sorry!), I still reserve the right to decline to answer polarising questions if I see fit. People can think what they like; I don’t give a stuff.
The phrase ‘No comment’ was made for questions like that. The other apt answer is ‘Mind your own business!’ or ruder variants of that 😀
Al Mohler was a liberal Baptist, who in his seminary days, “caved in” to pressure from the Pressler-Patterson crowd to “turn fundie” in exchange for promises to not excommunicate him and promises to give him future high executive positions in the Southern Baptist Convention. That is what Baptist pastors who know the inside situation have told me. Personally, I view Mohler as a sell-out religious “Quisling” with no backbone to stand up for what he really believes. All these quotes do is tell me about the wimp that he really is. I have zero respect for the man and take nothing he has to say seriously. Just sayin’.
Thank you, Charles, for the back ground in Mohler. I have no idea who he is.
But there was one point he made which you might not have seen if you chose not to read the article which I did find most interesting. And that is the stuff I quoted.
I took it to mean that people who have never expressed their opinion about the subject, will now be facing that question. Yes, he may be warning fellow conservatives, but doesn’t the warning also apply to those who have never given it a thought?
Thanks for this piece John. I agree with most of it. However, I don’t believe that we can say for certain that Eugene was motivated by the ‘green god’. My inclination on this is that he (gentle soul that he appears to be) simply could not stand the heat at a stage of life when he just wants to slip quietly into the background to read and write. It appears to me that he spoke truth from his heart when he did the original interview, but couldn’t handle the blow-back. If I’m correct, he shows a lack of courage, but not a love of money.
He may not have been motivated purely by that, but he gave in to the pressures of those who are. I think he allowed himself to be coerced into a reversal, whether for career self-preservation or another reason.
John, I can see the sadness in your words and it is tragic.
My sadness isn’t tragic. Peterson’s reversal is. My sadness is merely a recognition of that tragedy.
Aren’t the people who have rounders of books in grocery stores? I never understood why that was a thing… there are no Muslim or Jewish or even progressive Christian books for sale at Stop & Shop or CVS, why do we need this narrow (multiple definitions) interpretation of Christianity to be represented.
As we say in NJ, “Time for some PR problems in Providence”
“I don’t know Eugene Peterson personally, but his writings have been transformational for me. He’s put the Scriptures in a voice that people can easily approach and understand, and by all accounts he seems like a really decent human being whose faith matters greatly to him. Having said that, I’m disgusted by the cowardice of his speedy retreat and the sucker punch to the gut it has been to my LGBTQ friends, who once again are used like piñata by the Christian Right; something to be beaten up for entertainment. He’s going to have to live with whatever the truth is about his personal convictions, and he’s going to have to also carry the weight of his acquiescing—on the lives of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people whose enemies are now rushing to use him as further justification to be terrible in Jesus’ name.”
Beautifully stated…thank you
Dear John,
I read your words with lots of interest, actually three times, and only then I decided to respond. So here is a revelation that you don’t know about. Mr. Eugene Peterson has been a close family friend for well over 35 years!
My Dad and Mr. Peterson were missionaries together many years ago, and they traveled many places around the world for several years. Mr. Peterson has been to my folks home on many, many occasions, and we have shared their home as well for dinner and other activities.
He loves the Lord, the Church, and People from all backgrounds, with no respecter of persons. I must tell you the entire truth about the last week. First, Eugene Peterson has never believed in same sex marriage. Not ever! He has always believed in treating members in the LGBT community with a great deal of dignity and respect. He has been kind, considerate, and gentle towards persons that identify with the LGBT community.
But it is important that I reiterate that Mr. Peterson has never believed in same sex marriage. That discussion has come on many occasions when I’ve been in his presence, and while he has always spoken with lots of compassion and grace, he has never affirmed same sex marriage as this op-ed has alleged. While I was not present during the interview, I can tell you that Eugene Peterson was not clear about the questions, how they were asked, etc.
But since that interview, he has not only given a retraction, but he has stated very clearly his position of that specific subject, that he does not believe in same sex marriage, and that he would never participate in conducting any kind of ceremony giving his approval to such unions. I will also tell your members to keep their eyes open and their ears alert, as Eugene Peterson will be giving a major interview on Focus on the Family in the very near future. He wants to clear the air, and as for money, let me tell you from first hand knowledge. Mr. Peterson has been very wealthy for many years, and his paraphrase of the Bible, known as “The Message”, has sold literally millions upon millions of copy, so the claim that he is worried about money is nowhere near being true. He has more money than he will ever need!
My request to all of you is to not make statements that are simply not true. I am aware that this is one of the hot button issues in our country, but it is important that we get it right. Lifeway Stores and its administration are upstanding people with integrity, and Mr. Peterson will definitely set the record straight concerning the claim that Lifeway pressured him to change his tune concerning his views on same sex marriage.
Respectfully Yours,
Toni Dennis
I wonder if Peterson changes his position according to whichever group he happens to be speaking in front of. Focus on the Family, an organization for whom I have almost zero respect, will expect the message he is apparently going to bring them. I wonder if he would deliver the same message to a United Church of Christ audience or an Episcopalian audience? It sounds to me as if Peterson does not have a position on LGBTQ issues or has not fully formulated one for himself that he is willing to defend. I can understand that because I do not have a fully formulated personal position either—-except that I know it is wrong to preach hatred against LGBTQ people, discriminate against LGBTQ people, and persecute LGBTQ people, especially in the name of Jesus. Focus on the Family, best I can tell, believes in doing all those things. How about you Toni? Do you believe that LGBTQ people should be treated this way—and if not—why do you have your hand over your mouth—unable to speak out against your fellow Christians who do?
If you are really a friend of Eugene Peterson, call him up and ask him to come to this blog to discuss his position with us. John will moderate us, and we will be nice and respectful to him because I think most people here do honor his commitment to Jesus. Maybe it could be a mutual learning experience?
Charles, it kinda reminds me of the way various groups claim that C. S. Lewis wrote exclusively for their audience.
I’ve heard people assert that Lewis was an evangelical. I’ve heard people assert that he was Anglo-Catholic. They could read into his work what they wanted to find.
When in reality, he was a middle of the road member of the CofE, moderate in his theology.
Charles, Eugene Peterson doesn’t owe anybody us an explanation of his views on homosexuality and same sex marriage. And Focus on the Family is a reputable Christian organization, and no one is going to change their understanding of marriage or human sexuality.
Toni
Reputable? Christian? Focus on the Family is known for its strident anti-LGBT rhetoric and positions, as well as for pushing anti-LGBT pseudoscience and misrepresenting legitimate research. In other words, they lie. They continue to push ex-gay therapy which is illegal in many jurisdictions because it is a form of torture that often leads its victims into serious mental issues, often ending in suicide.
I grant your point that no one is going to change their understanding. When someone is making so much money from promoting hatred, what would be the incentive to change?
Patricia, yes, Focus on the Family is Christian and Reputable. Dr. Jane’s Dobson is the most respected Christian family therapist in America! They’re standing on solid Biblical grounds when it comes to the family and marriage.
He’s a hateful man who’s damaged more families than most because of his influence.
Amen to that!
Only with “believers” like you. I happen to be a follower of Jesus and I don’t buy anything Focus on the Family spouts or sells and I think Dobson sold out for money.
If what you wrote about Dobson is true, I weep for America. His only purpose is to make money by making people hate each other. I don’t think that’s very Biblical.
Make me puke. He is NOT reputable because he is an advocate of child abuse.
I guess it depends on what is considered “respectable”. For some an organisation raking in almost $100 million a year is “respectable”. Obviously Toni thinks a dominionist organisation that ruthlessly tries to deny the rights of LGBTQ, promotes hatred of LGBTQ people, and abuse LGBTQ youths to the point of depression and suicide is “respectable” because they conform to his theology.
Focus on the Family is a buncha people that think it is ok to abuse other people.
If Toni Dennis thinks Focus on the Family is reputable, then Toni Dennis believes in abusing people.
This makes it even more unlikely to me that she ever knew Eugene Peterson because it is clear from his writings he would never condone abuse.
Well, that is just fine Toni. We shall see if they are still around when the Christian Cretaceous Period ends. In the meantime, they are villains in my book—and so is Dobson—but he will be croaking soon—and like all cult figures—I am betting that his organization will die off with him—maybe not right away—but soon enough. Please see the following hope that is not in Jesus that many of us have—along with HIS hope:
https://faith17983.wordpress.com/2017/03/04/hope-for-america/
Please feel free to visit my blog any time Toni.
Dr. James Dobson is the most respected Christian family therapist in America! The organization he founded, Focus on the Family, has done well since Dobson stepped aside nearly ten years ago, so they will be just fine.
Doubt it.
Toni, did Eugene Peterson ask you to speak for him? Is there some way you can prove your assertions? Have you some citations you can offer instead of personal anecdotes?
I do not mean this as an insult, but anyone can claim they have known someone for a long time and claim to know them well.
So some objective proof, rather than personal experience, would be welcome.
I have no desire to prove anything to anyone.
Ears closed and mouth open, Toni?
Don’t you, toni dennis? The way you write would indicate otherwise.
Toni Dennis. thank you for your interesting 2cents. somehow, i think your rendition has the ring of truth. I always give people the benefit of the doubt, especially a well-loved Octogenarian, like Eugene Peterson. I believe you when you say, that Peterson disapproves of gay marriage. I believe you when you say he treats LGBT & everyone with dignity & love. I enjoyed hearing the personal side of this matter. I’ve used The Message off & on for 20 years, but know nothing about the author/translator Peterson.
This ‘news’ story about Peterson fit neatly into the anti-Conservative Christian narrative, but alas…. only superficially. It also caused needless harm.
Focus on the Family? Why not just spit in the faces of his gay followers? You have to be kidding, FOTF can’t tell the truth to save their lives. The truth would never suite their agenda.
I don’t know this Peterson but I can tell you that even the most devout Christians aren’t beyond lying to save themselves from the wrath of other self righteous Christians.
Focus on the family should focus on their own families and stop torturing the entire world with their obsession with sex and homosexuality. But again that’s their agenda.
The christian right has done more to turn people away from the church than any other organization.
jaime wrote, “The christian right has done more to turn people away from the church than any other organization.”
I would go further and say they have done more to cause people to reject Jesus, not merely the church.
Generally, I acquire my reading through discussions with well educated clergy, seminary book stores, and reviews posted in periodicals/magazines. Your post was the first time I’ve heard of the ‘LifeWay’ bookstore chain. So I’ve no axe to grind in this regard. Hopefully, my remarks will reflect this.
But first, may I say that Peterson shouldn’t be condemned quickly by those who haven’t faced such predicaments. To claim that ‘I would be faithful where others have fallen’ is cheap glory. I believe that an objective examination of the record would show that we fall for ‘cheap glory’ more often than we suppose.
Further, whatever one believes about GLBTQ etc., it is disappointing when the absence of all strength of convictions is so quickly revealed. And surely, Dr. Peterson anticipated some such reaction. But then, he is advanced in years. This simply isn’t his time to engage in major contention. Youth and hotheads will discount that, but wisdom speaks more softly.
To the point – I found LifeWay’s approach to this matter was unhelpful and of questionable propriety. What LifeWay markets is LifeWay’s decision. It’s their business. But the question I would as is, ‘what is LifeWay’s business.’
LifeWay might have laid out a range of options. One would be a private communication with Dr. Peterson informing him that it is discontinuing the sale of his works. An announcement to that effect could be made and the matter left there. Again, LifeWay could sell Dr. Peterson’s many works which don’t relate to GLBTQ issues. Or LifeWay might disclaim Dr. Peterson’s GLBTQ conclusions while selling his works on the strength of their general merit. Other options exist.
Instead, LifeWay utilized a tactic well-known to fallen earthly principalities and powers. These tactics are used because often, they effectively secure surrender to whatever power/ standard demands compliance. Trade bans are imposed on strategic items or specific nations for this reason. Pressure groups boycott businesses. In the ‘1930s, Germans refused to do business with Jewish shopkeepers. I expect some will demand that ‘Christians’ do no business with US Muslims.
In such instances and behind these oft-utilized tactics is the ‘charagma.’ It was understood that Caesar supported the economic life in his cities across the empire. In corollary, ability to benefit from that economy presumed your support of Caesar. If you didn’t evidence the stamp/impression/mark [charagma] of Caesar’s beastly name/authority/cause, then you could not buy or sell [Re 13:17]. This brings us back to LifeWay’s Peterson strategy.
Whereas in Revelation the ‘charagma of the beast’ [Re 14:9] and the ‘sphragizo [seal] of the Spirit’ [Re 7:3] in parody, it is evidently the theological strategy of St. John the theologian to tell us that one can be aligned with the powers and principalities of this age [by any Name, in whatever system it manifests itself in any time or place] OR – one can align with the kingdom of God in Christ.
In other words – it is the coercive/manipulative/punishment anti-theology of the charagma/beast, OR it is the gracious/liberating/blessing of the sphragizo/Spirit of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Which is the theology of Saint John the theologian?
Which ‘theology’ did LifeWay utilize re: E. Peterson?
I read many books. But I won’t be buying from LifeWay. I never have. Until today, I didn’t know LifeWay existed. But if I was a regular patron, I would be sorely tempted desist using LifeWay.
As I said, we fall for ‘cheap glory’ more often than we suppose…
Blessings!
That’s right, John. Cowardice on Eugene Peterson’s part. Pure. Cowardice.
Dear Craig Bartlett:
Remember where Eugene Peterson is in life. After a long and very distinguished career, he is in his mid 80s. Disappointed as you are, I truly believe a gracious church would speak with some kindness to a man God has used to guide and bless the church in his generation.
I prefer to remember Dr. Peterson thus, not as one who faltered late in life. As one closer to Dr. Peterson’s age than yours, I understand that there comes a time for others to fill the church leadership void.
In addition to points I presented [ http://tinyurl.com/y9xyghxk ] earlier today, there is this: God alone is Lord of the conscience, and he has set it free from the doctrines and commandments of men. So to obey those doctrines and commandments for conscience’ sake is to betray that true liberty which God has won for us in Christ. [What I remember from the WCF Chapter XX on Christian Liberty].
This raises questions as to how the Christian community should respond to the ‘LifeWay’ attempts to manipulate conscience by using thoroughgoing earth-bound dynamics. Especially if we’re seeing a serial offender, it seems fair to ask ‘LifeWay,’ ‘if you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of this world, why do you practice them as if you were still living in the world!’ And other theological issues can be raised concerning ‘LifeWay’ behavior also.
Perhaps Mr. Pavlovitz’ title line — ‘Big Green God’ and ‘LifeWay’ as the epitome of how ‘American Christianity’ [far more ‘American’ than Christian] ‘works. — might make a better focus than chiding Dr. Peterson at a time when he does not need to lead another battle.
Blessings!
Craig Bartlett, please do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
While the reaction you express was also my first reaction, I remember what many people of that age that I have known have been like.
We don’t know what happened. We don’t have enough information. While I feel it as a blow against the LGBTQ community, I also know how easily pressure is brought to bear upon our elderly because I see it every single day.
While it may not be true for every person in their 80s, many are in frail health and dependent on others.
I was crushingly disappointed when Gene Robinson stepped down from being Bishop of New Hampshire, but the cost for him was too high. Constant death threats are stressful and I believe they cost him his husband, although I could be remembering events incorrectly.
We don’t know what was said to Mr. Peterson that caused him to retract his words. We only have one side of the story.
Totally agree with John. There is no such thing as heterosexual lifestyle. Me and my partner are both Bi and exercise our freedom. Love is too good, and too rewarding to be confined to any one person or style. Now, don’t get me wrong, we are much in love. But, that doesn’t mean we can’t enjoy special times with friends or at clubs. You should love everyone and not be so possessive about style or partners! Thank you John for your boldness I love my LGBT friends and Bi works for me and my partner – open partners!
Uh…Jill. I have to wonder if you are LGBTQ at all. Rarely, almost never actually, have I ever heard a serious LGBTQ person, especially a Christian LGBTQ person, voice a position that says the Earth has 7 billion people—let’s all mound together like ferrets and “F” each other right now. That sounds like what you are saying. Please tell me that this is not what you are saying or that you are at some party and just drunk out of your mind over your smart phone.
Once one accepts that there is no certainty regarding sexuality and sexual behavior from the church or the bible, then what Jill says and does is a perfectly logical extension of that thinking.
That is what you got out of her comment? And who’s mind is in the gutter? lmao
Uh Charles, when I read your response I first laughed then felt like crying. My partner and I have preferences and standards. We do not share randomly. We are loving people who feel we are due respect. Have you never heard of open relationships? (with boundaries of course!) If you are into monogamy I would never criticize you for that. We do describe ourselves as Christian as well as Hindu and all forms of enlightenment. When will we ever stop judging!! Am I wrong in the way I feel? With all respect, Jill
Thank you for this. It is a sad state of affairs that money is so much more important than integrity. I will never understand the hatred that some have for the LGBTQ community. I wish that they would just live by the phrase I will do me and you can do you. Thank you also for the moderation. It is noticed and appreciated. Peace and Love,
Do you believe a mother should be able to marry her own son? Or that a father should be able to marry his own daughter?
If you don’t, does that mean that you have “hatred” for those people who want to do that?
Or if the above were legal (and maybe it is somewhere, I don’t know), but did not believe that could be a true Christian marriage, would it be hateful to believe that way?
Stop. Don’t be that guy. Two adults who love one another and are committed to a monogamous, loving, respectful, mutually beneficially relationship isn’t akin to a person marrying their parent. That’s the problem. Your religion has made you unable to see LGBTQ as adults and their expressions of love as valid as your own. Once you can do that, your religion will change.
Thank you, John, because I would not have been able to answer his nonsense. Peace and Love,
Please do tell me you aren’t this ignorant?
Oh, yes, he is. Especially since he ignores that in the Hebrew Scriptures Abraham was married to his sister.
Pastor, I totally agree with you 100% here. 100%. Very disappointing. Painfully disappointing. But with a community of people taught that Bible in its totality is the eternal and infallible word of God, how do you NOT expect pushback against the LGBTQ community? For example- as a pastor, you’re undoubtedly very familiar and, as a decent human who happens to be a follower of an abrahamic religion, you’ve assuredly had to reconcile your (correct) worldview with Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and 1 Timothy 1:9–10. How is a biblical literalist supposed to deal with those passages? Tell someone who is less of an expert of the Bible (me).
Is it because they’re epistles written after the death of the Christ and not directly from His ministry? Were those passages written to address specific problems occurring within the churches of Rome, Corinth and Ephesus at the time? Then what is the relevance do they have in the West to a Christian in 2017? Should they be ignored? How would you reach out to another human who is a follower of your Christ who legitimately believes these passages to be the word of God? How do you reach out to people who think LifeWay’s pressure on Eugene Peterson and Mr Peterson’s (unfortunate) reversal on the LGBTQ issue was a good thing because it supports what is directly said in the Bible (those passages) instead of what was NOT said in it (an explicit condemnation of homosexuality by The Christ)?
I get it, you disagree with LifeWay’s and Mr Peterson’s current stance on homosexuality, as do I. It’s ignorant. It’s calloused. It’s profit driven. It sucks. But how do you get around it in terms of scripture? Is homosexuality a sin in your mind? Not the people…the orientation?…the sexual act? Do you plainly ignore what the Bible says in those passages? Or is it some mistranslation of the Greek (the epistles were written in Greek) into Latin into English? Or Do you render those passages irrelevant based on the fact they’re “just” epistles and/or their cultural context and/or that age’s lack of scientific understanding and ultimately thus ignore them? Or Do you say “it’s not my job to judge the actions of others and/or we’re all sinners so I’m no better than anyone else and/or love the person/hate the sin” and then just ignore those passages?
How do YOU ignore them? How do YOU tell someone to ignore them? Was there a personal revelation you received based on your personal relationship with the Christ that renders those passages irrelevant? If someone received personal revelation from the Christ that they are relevant, how are they wrong? IOW, Is there a morality that transcends what is explicitly written in the Bible in those passages? Does that make the Bible wrong (in those places)? If it’s wrong there, where else is it wrong? Or if it’s not wrong but irrelevant there, where else is it irrelevant? Was 1 Timothy not written by Paul? Were passages added in by transcribers of the original biblical text in I Corinthians (and Romans)? What else is not authentic in the Bible then? And how would you begin to convince others (eg LifeWay supporters) of this? I want to know, I’m not trying to be snarky here. I legitimately respect you support your views (mostly), and want to understand the machinations of your mind because ultimately i want to stand in love and harmony with all of my fellow human beings….which I think is your vision…so how do YOU get around WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS in those epistles? Maybe that can help people come to be more loving to one another…
Man. That’s a lot. I could address some of it, but I was up all night and am way too tired—-or tarred—as they say in this neck of the woods. Anyone want to handle this?
I guess that I would start in two places:
(1) The written law of the Old Testament kills, and like Paul said in Galatians, has passed away for Christians. He never says the Old Testament law has passed away except for the moral law. That is a modern fundie twist. He is clearly indicating that the whole law, including the 10 commandments, has passed away. Also, this law never applied to gentiles like you and me because it was part of an exclusive covenant between God and the children of Israel alone.
(2) As for the New Testament passages, we all need to remember that first century Christians were still struggling to formulate a meaningful explanation of what the Jesus ministry actual meant. In particular, and you see this in the words of the New Testament writers, they were struggling with the question of whether their new Jesus beliefs made them a sect of Judaism (meaning they were all still fully Jewish and responsible to Torah) or whether it was a new and different religion that made them something different from Jewish. As I read through the New Testament, I see a lot of tension and confusion between the Old Testament law and this new religion called Christianity. For example, Paul can say in several places that the Old Testament law has passed away and then several paragraphs later he is suddenly listing a litany of sins from the Old Testament law as if it has not passed a way. You just want to say: “Well, which is it Paul? You are clearly confused and struggling with this am I Jewish or am I something else problem—and how does the Old Testament law fit in—or does it fit in at all?” It is too bad that they did not explicitly work all of this out in no uncertain terms because the Bible books all end without us knowing their final decision on this—or whether they did not resolve it and were just willing to tolerate the ambiguity of it all.
Personally, I take Paul at his word when he says that the whole Old Testament law has passed away for Christians. Furthermore, I still think the Old Testament law never applied to gentiles like you and me because we were never part of the Old Testament covenant. I do think the New Testament writers who were raised Jewish from birth never really resolved the “Am I a Jew or am I something else” issue—and lived in a lot of doubt and tension about that issue—never really fully resolving it in their noggins.
That being the case, how then do we deal with LGBTQ people today. I think all we can do is look to the words and deeds of Jesus himself in the New Testament. He never personally addressed the subject of LGBTQ people. He never gave us any laws. However, he gave us several commands and a lot of general principles to live our lives by—and none of those commands and principles are the least bit compatible with hating LGBTQ people, harassing them to death, making their lives miserable, discriminating against them, and persecuting them—which is what Christian fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals do today.
thank you, Charles, appreciate you.
Matt D wrote ” How is a biblical literalist supposed to deal with those passages?”
The first step would be to repent of Biblical literalism which is an act of violence committed against the Bible. The Bible cannot be read literalistically because it was never meant to be read that way.
For one thing, unless one reads the Bible in the original languages, one is reading an interpretation. I say that because all translations have to be interpretations because it is impossible to exactly translate one language into another.
Hebrew words, for instance, have more than one meaning. The Spirit might brood, hover, or dance over the face of the deep, depending upon the translator’s preference. A certain commandment has been variously translated as “do not kill” or “do not murder” when the fact is that the Hebrew word means both. But people who want to justify war, for example, will go with “do not murder” because it is less inclusive than “do not kill”.
For centuries, a certain apostle among apostles was greeted in Romans as Junius because translators assumed that Paul could not possibly have meant Junia, despite what it says in the Greek, because women couldn’t, according to the translators, have authority over men.
Which leads to a whole other concatenation when it comes to interpreting the Bible literalistically… the inherent contradictions one forces upon the Pauline corpus in order to prove the point Paul never ever makes that women can’t have authority over men when in fact he says men and women are co-equal in every single way.
Recommend you read these fascinating books which go into far more detail than I about why we just can’t interpret the Bible literalistically.
Oops! Forgot the list of books. Silly me. LOL
You don’t Understand the Bible because you are Christian by Richard Gist
The Bible Tells Me So: Why Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable to Read It by Peter Enns
What Is the Bible?: How an Ancient Library of Poems, Letters, and Stories Can Transform the Way You Think and Feel About Everything by Rob Bell
Thank you, Gloriamarie, appreciate you and the reading list. Combat the idea that the Bible is literal. That’s what I thought.
Another reason we can’t read the Bible literally is because there are so many different kinds of literature among the various texts.
Off the top of my head, there is the Wisdom literature, history, the law, poetry, prophecy, apocalyptic, Gospel (a brand new form of literature at the time they were written) and letters.
While sometimes there are clearcut distinctions between the books and their form of literature, some of the books of the Hebrew Scripture contain more than one form of literature. For example, several of the first chapters in Genesis are Wisdom Literature. Some of the Psalms are both Wisdom and poetry.
And, as some of the books I recommended will point out, we lose a lot in the translation. Take the story of Ruth and Boaz in the Book of Ruth. Naomi tells Ruth to uncover Boaz’ feet which is supposed to let B know R wishes to marry him.
Why his feet? So he can walk all over her? No, no, the word “feet” is a coy translation of something any reader of Hebrew would know. N tells R to uncover that part of Boaz’ body which women lack.
Isn’t that a more clear invitation to marriage than uncovering feet?
Hello Matt D, and thanks for your sincere inquiry as to why Christians takes the Bible seriously and literally. First, I am going to try as hard as I can to not make this too long. Second, my name is Laralynn, and while I rarely come on this weblog, I have commented here and there in the past.
Third, I think you should know that I am a Ph.D. student at the University of Manchester, in Manchester, England. In fact, I leave next week for my Summer requirement and will be there until the end of August or perhaps the first few days in September, then it’s back to preparing for my Dissertation.
You asked about interpreting the Bible literally and whether we should interpret the Scriptures that speaks to the subject of homosexuality, and the answers to your questions are yes!
Now, before I unpack what I want to say, it is important that you and others on this blog understand the proper meaning of being a literalist. Biblical literalism is the method of interpreting Scripture that holds that, except in places where the text is obviously allegorical, poetic, or figurative, it should be taken literally. Biblical literalism is the position of most evangelicals and Christian fundamentalists.
Biblical literalism goes hand-in-hand with regarding the Word of God as inerrant and inspired. If we believe in the doctrine of biblical inspiration, that the books of the Bible were written by men under the influence of the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16–17; 2 Peter 1:20:21) to the extent that everything they wrote was exactly what God wanted to say, then a belief in biblical literalism is simply an acknowledgement that God wants to communicate to us via human language.
The rules of human language then become the rules of interpreting Scripture. Words have objective meaning, and God has spoken through words. Not only can we take the Bible literally, but we must take the Bible literally. This is the only way to determine what God really is trying to communicate to us. When we read any piece of literature, but especially the Bible, we must determine what the author intended to communicate.
One reason we should take the Bible literally is because the Lord Jesus Christ took it literally. Whenever the Lord Jesus quoted from the Old Testament, it was always clear that He believed in its literal interpretation. As an example, when Jesus was tempted by Satan in Luke 4, He answered by quoting the Old Testament. If God’s commands in Deuteronomy 8:3, 6:13, and 6:16 were not literal, Jesus would not have used them and they would have been powerless to stop Satan’s mouth, which they certainly did.
Although we take the Bible literally, there are still figures of speech within its pages. An example of a figure of speech would be that if someone said “it is raining cats and dogs outside,” you would know that they did not really mean that cats and dogs were falling from the sky. They would mean it is raining really hard. There are figures of speech in the Bible which are not to be taken literally, but those are obvious. (See Psalm 17:8 for example.)
Finally, when we make ourselves the final arbiters of which parts of the Bible are to be interpreted literally, we elevate ourselves above God. Who is to say, then, that one person’s interpretation of a biblical event or truth is any more or less valid than another’s? The confusion and distortions that would inevitably result from such a system would essentially render the Scriptures null and void. The Bible is God’s Word to us and He meant it to be believed, literally and completely.
My Master of Theology degree is from the prestigious Dallas Seminary. The program is a four years program unlike the typical M.DIV in most Seminaries, and we were required to study Greek and Hebrew all four years! So, I have a good grasp of understanding of the Scriptures in their original language and context.
As it relates to Homosexuality, there is no doubt that the Bible speaks the heart and mind of God on the subject, and it is not good. Therefore, I turn now to argue that homosexual behavior is immoral. The reason it is immoral is that it is clearly unnatural. Here I am using the terms “natural” and “unnatural” in a specific way. By saying that homosexuality is unnatural, I mean that it is contrary to the purpose and design of God, our creator. And I mean to argue that we can know this even apart from what the Bible says about it. My argument can be stated as follows:
Whatever behavior is contrary to God’s created design for human beings is morally wrong. Homosexuality is contrary to God’s created design for human beings.Therefore, homosexuality is wrong.
Now what can be said in defense of the premises of this argument? Let’s take a look at premise (1) first. This premise, of course, assumes that God exists. Some people on the pro-homosexual side of this debate will cry, “Foul! You can’t bring religion in this debate! You can’t bring your Bible verses into the public arena to decide this issue!” First of all, take careful note that my argument does not quote any Bible verses, nor will I do so in defense of premise (1).
And it is not my intent to bring religion per se into the debate at this point. I am merely appealing to the fact that most people in our society believe, or at least say they believe, in the existence of God. To be sure, there are those who claim that they do not believe in God. I think they are profoundly mistaken.
I think the evidence for God’s existence is overwhelming and that those who attempt to dismiss his existence are “without excuse” as Romans 1:20 states. But we can save that debate for another time.
Most of us, even those who are not Christian,even those who do not believe in the divine authority of the Bible, nevertheless belivethat the universe was created by a personal, all-powerful, all-knowing, and supremely good God. More specifically, we believe that we were created by God. And we believe that God gave us all of our faculties and abilities, physical and mental, for a benevolent purpose.
It follows from this that if I use the abilities and faculties that God gave me in a way that is contrary to his good intentions, then I have done something wrong. For example, if I use the hands that God gave me for serving him and other people to strangle and kill my brother instead, then I have done wrong. So premise (1) of my argument is true: any behavior that is contrary to God’s created design for human beings is morally unacceptable.
Now we come to the crucial question. Is homosexual behavior consistent with God’s created design for human beings? Or does it run contrary to his design? In premise (2) I have stated what I take to be the right answer to this question. Homosexual behavior is clearly contrary to God’s design.
We believe that God created us male and female. We believe, that is, that hetero-sexuality is God’s intent. Otherwise, he wouldn’t have created two sexes! And let us simply examine the biology of it all. Who can reasonably deny that penises are designed to fit into vaginas? And who can deny that vaginas are meant to receive penises? And I am not using these biological statements to refer to reproduction. Homosexuality advocates often remind us that sexual activity is not only meant for the purpose of reproduction. It is also intended for pleasure and for emotional bonding. I agree whole-heartedly! But this does not justify homosexuality.
If you grant that there is a natural “fit” between penises and vaginas that is created by God (and this cannot be denied), then it is easy to see that God intends for sexual activity to bring men and women together, for the purpose of reproduction to be sure, but also for the purpose of creating a special union through the pleasure and emotional bonding that takes place in sexual intercourse.
Imagine, for the sake of argument that all human beings opted for homosexuality. If homosexual behavior is morally permissible, then it would be morally permissible for everyone to be homosexual. But, then, God’s clear intent for men and women to enter into intimate unions through sexual intercourse would be thwarted. God’s intent that men and women cleave together in mutually dependent relationships would be thwarted as well. And, by the way, so would God’s intent that humans reproduce.
And, by the way, so would God’s intent that humans reproduce.
So, I conclude that homosexual behavior is clearly inconsistent with God’s created purpose for human beings. Therefore, it follows that homosexual behavior is wrong.
I pray that God will give you understanding of what I’ve attempted to communicate. And I am sorry that it is longer than what I intended, but it is important that I express myself in a clear way. I wish you well going forward, and I trust that God will speak to you!
Thanks Again,
Laralynn
The Dallas Theological Seminary is highly respected within the unique BS bounds of Christian fundamentalism and conservative evangelicalism. Outside of it—not so much. If I had been on the faculty at the University of Manchester, I would have voted against accepting you into graduate school and demanded that my colleagues do the same. I see no point in educating a person who has spent their entire life imbibing on man-made lies and fantasies about the Christian faith—lies and fantasies that are recent in time and stamped Made in America—and then sending that person with graduate degrees out into the world to further mangle and soot the faith in creative ways. I hope you do realize that Christian fundamentalism and conservative evangelicalism are entering their death throes—and you are going to die spiritually with it. Have a nice day.
Charles, Dallas Seminary is easily considered one of the best Seminaries in the world, and that includes schools that are considered “conservative” and “liberal”. There is no school anywhere that teaches the science of Biblical Exegesis and Exposition and the Biblical languages on the level of Dallas Seminary. Biblical Christianity will always be around because our Lord said it would, as HE is the Founder and Chief Cornerstone of the Church!
”except in places where the text is obviously allegorical, poetic, or figurative, it should be taken literally. Biblical literalism is the position of most evangelicals and Christian fundamentalists.”
I see, so special Christians decide what is literal and what is allegorical and what is figurative or poetic, how convenient.
”I think the evidence for God’s existence is overwhelming and that those who attempt to dismiss his existence are “without excuse” as Romans 1:20 states. ”
And you make the judgment that we are profoundly mistaken because you believe the bible is literal and that it is the word of god… if the bible is literal it’s far worse than I thought after reading it myself.
How does one debate with a bible literalist? You can’t argue with someone who is convinced.
”Most of us, even those who are not Christian, even those who do not believe in the divine authority of the Bible, nevertheless belive that the universe was created by a personal, all-powerful, all-knowing, and supremely good God. ”
Most of us, who?
”And we believe that God gave us all of our faculties and abilities, physical and mental, for a benevolent purpose.”
Odd, since god himself was not so benevolent. Unless you dismiss the dark side of his character.
”Homosexual behavior is clearly contrary to God’s design.”
So you ignore the homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom as well? Or does your god deny he created that as well? Why would there be any such temptation if god didn’t want or knowingly allow for such differences. Why would he burden a small amount of his creation and yet his heterosexual creation has no such burden. Makes no sense at all. Why would he enshrine the condemnation of a small group of people for all time, unless he was sadistic and enjoyed watching his followers use gays as a political foot ball, or a way to measure their obedience to god by choosing not to be gay. Because of course being gay is a choice right? So being straight must also be a choice? UGH
It’s pretty damn easy to be for the bible when you are not singled out for special treatment, isn’t it?
So you were educated on the bible, which frankly doesn’t prove anything in the bible is anything more than hearsay and ancient manipulation of an uneducated and gullible population prone to superstition and fears.
Creating male and female doesn’t answer the question, it just shows that he created a way procreate. I’m pretty sure the people in the ancient times didn’t foresee artificial insemination either.
Please give me a break with the emotional bonding that takes place with sexual intercourse. Maybe for you, but not for millions of others, hell not even for many heterosexuals.
I’m a lesbian, I sure as heck would have noticed if any bonding was happening when I was trying to be straight to please my fundamentalist parents. If that was bonding, you can have it.
”God’s intent that men and women cleave together in mutually dependent relationships would be thwarted as well. And, by the way, so would God’s intent that humans reproduce.”
This is what took you four years? seriously? Where did you miss the obvious here? You have to be attracted to the same sex in order to be gay. You think that if homosexuality is permissible that heterosexuals will voluntarily give up being straight to be gay?
Maybe you should have spent more time among average people where you could be more aware of true reality.
It would be morally wrong for me to be straight and make some man miserable so that you can cling to your theory that frankly makes very little sense.
If there is a god there isn’t one person on this planet that knows what his purpose is, and he apparently has no interest in showing up to clear it up.
He’s either not all that powerful, or he’s just not as interested in our sex lives as some Christians would have you believe with a straight face.
An ancient contradictory book is of little value knowing just how manipulative man is and has always been, and it appears god is as well. Considering how differently Christians view their god, it’s a wonder we haven’t completely lost out minds by now.
If homosexuality was not meant to exist, and an all powerful god demanded it not exist, it would not exist. And it is evident, people haven’t all decided their preference has changed due to the advances in the gay community.
Please Get real.
You trust that god will speak to us? Clearly he only speaks to people who take the bible literally because I sure haven’t heard from him even as a young person who sorely needed confirmation he existed, so that I could find out why my fundamentalist parents where so dysfunctional and mean spirited.
His followers weren’t any help at all because they are often as contradictory as the god they worship.
Must be nice to be so sure of other peoples lives..
jaimie wrote “I see, so special Christians decide what is literal and what is allegorical and what is figurative or poetic, how convenient.”
If you consider Biblical scholars as “special Christians,” then, yes, because they have been specially trained.
When it comes to the Hebrew Scriptures, it’s been the Jewish scholars who have so identified their own texts.
As for the rest of what you say, jaime, I agree with you. Laralynn claims a certain level of education but does not demonstrate it. You quite correctly fault her for her failure to offer supporting evidence for many of the things she claims. Anyone who is actually trained in academic research would automatically offer references to support claims.
Jaime, your frustration and argument is with the Creator, not me. And as human beings created in the likeness and image of our Creator, we don’t take our sexuality behavior from the animal kingdom. Animals also kill and eat their own. Should we follow suit? Animals are not homosexuals, they are governed purely by their wild instincts, and because of the Fall of Man, the whole Creation has been impacted by Sin. I am glad that human beings are held to a higher standard than the wild life as it relates to our sexual conduct.
“…as human beings created in the likeness and image of our Creator.”
Which ones, the men or the women? If both, God is non-binary. That’s a problem for you.
Nice try, John, but your point didn’t make the point!
Thanks for Trying,
Laralynn
I have to say Laralynn that that was beautifully and elegantly written. Which is disturbing because that would convince a lot of people that you have the right of it.
I thought this sentence was interesting: “Whatever behaviour is contrary to God’s created design for human beings is morally wrong.” God’s created design is that we should be living naked in a garden without children. But even if we don’t want to take the creation story in Genesis literally, certainly the way that we live in bad stewardship, polluting the air, the earth, and the water of God’s beautiful creation, is of far greater concern than who people form life relationships with.
You follow that with: “Homosexuality is contrary to God’s created design for human beings. Therefore, homosexuality is wrong.” Science has shown over and over again that there is great variety in created design, and that homosexuality is one variation that occurs with regularity throughout created life. It saddens me that you equate a state of being with being wrong. You condemn homosexuals for the sin of being born.
A few paragraphs down, you come completely off the rails when you compare homosexuality to murdering your brother.
But what made me laugh is this: “any behaviour that is contrary to God’s created design for human beings is morally unacceptable.” Since God’s created design is naked in a garden without children, all those baby-making heterosexuals are clearly in the wrong.
Then you make the argument that pleasure and emotional bonding do not justify homosexuality. That’s fine since homosexuality does not need to be justified. Science has proven that homosexuality is a regular and expected variation of creation. If God didn’t want people and creatures to be born this way, God wouldn’t have created this variation.
My favourite for absurdity is: “Imagine, for the sake of argument that all human beings opted for homosexuality.” We have seen this old saw hundreds of times before and it is no closer to being possible than the first time it was propounded. As has already been clearly stated by others, homosexuality is an inborn state of being that cannot be chosen or opted into. It would be better to rid yourself of this ridiculous idea of choice than to continue to expose your ignorance of this topic.
What really puts the icing on the cake is your assertion by implication that God is speaking to you but not to people who disagree with your stance. If you truly want to enter into respectful dialogue, you would be wise not to close with a sweetly-worded insult.
For somebody who’s busy running a universe of hundreds of billions of galaxies filled with hundreds of billions of suns each with their own solar systems full of multiple planets, God sure places a lot of stock on what a bunch of bipedal relatively hairless primates on a small rock orbiting around an average sized star do with their holes.
Indeed.
LOL. Amen.
Patricia, I realize that you haven’t had the academic exposure in Theology that I have, but I do appreciate you trying to make your points. I also recognize that to speak of homosexuality in a way that brings conviction to the heart, is also a hard pill to swallow for some.
Thanks Again,
Laralyn
Laralynn, I can tell by your style of speech that you are steeped in a theology that pretends to give you the right to direct other people’s lives and theologies while ignoring other people’s lives and theologies as unworthy. You have also been educated to disrespect people who have had a different kind of education. You sound young so you may not as yet realise the harm that you are doing to God’s children who were educated differently or who understand a different theology. Although from the deliberate sweetly-worded insult flung in your first sentence, I suspect that you may revel in hurting other people.
Patricia, I find Laralyn disingenuous, passive-aggressive and quick to make assumptions which she words as insults.
Her writing style is very similar to another person’s, who is a frequent commenter and I don’t mean He of the Many Aliases.
I am sorry she also has you in her sights.
Laralyn, since you are so proud — and pride is a sin — of your academic exposure to theology, the study of God, I would ask if you have had a like amount of exposure to a personal relationship with God. How much of your theology is based on books of other people’s ideas of God and how much is on your own wrestling with God, as Jacob did, to find out what God desires of you personally, not what others tell you God desires of you.
I am possibly a member of the LGBTQ community. Questioning at this point. Questioning my whole life. I grew up in the Church. And the hatred I see among so-called Christians for me and my friends is appalling. Pavlovitz’s voice is, I’m sure, a beautiful thing. Unfortunately, it is often drowned out by the voices of those who believe hatred is a form of entertainment.
Anon, yes, I have often thought they find expressing hate a form of entertainment.
Please ignore those voices. There are lots of here, gay and straight, who love and follow Jesus. Ignore those so-called Christians here and elsewhere who spew hate.
While I have not been mistreated by Christians for being gay, I have been mistreated by Christians for other reasons. Fortunately for me, my faith is anchored in Jesus and not in the behavior of others.
Tell me, Laralyn does the “prestigious” Dallas Seminary still teach the heresies of dispensationalism and the prosperity gospel?
Biblical literalism is not anything a “prestigious” seminary would ever teach because it overlooks the fact that it is dependent upon a literal reading of the translation.
Of course, were more “Christians” Biblical literalists, they would take the words of the Hebrew prophets to heart, as well as the words of Jesus and do something about the poor, the hungry, the naked, the sick, the thirsty, and the needy.
Then heresies such as dispensationalism and the prosperity gospel would be squashed as the excuses for greed and selfishness that they are.
Ms. Amalfitano,
I was very tempted to engage you until I saw that you accused Dallas Seminary of “Prosperity Gospel”. It was then that I realized that I can’t take you seriously.
Additionally, I saw that you actually went to Gordon-Conwell Seminary, a school very similar to DTS. What is funny is that that school embraces the “inerrancy and infallibility” of the Scripture, and I know personally that several of their faculty members believe strongly in Dispensationalism, including my very dear friend and former Vice-President, Barry Corey, who is the President of Biola University.
When you truly learn some things, please feel free to contact me.
Thanks for Trying,
Laralynn
Well done Laralynn. You have exposed your vileness for all to see. Your vaunted theology and precious education are all for nought if you cannot behave decently.
Patricia Brush, just wanted you to know that I am a fan of you and your comments. Rather than say me too for all your comments, poor John has to moderate them, I thought I would just say imagine my me too every time you comment. Thank you so very much, you do so much better than I. Peace and Love,
I look forward to reading your comments as well, enjoying your perspective and wisdom. I don’t think it’s a competition, but I appreciate your encouragement.
It does not matter, Laralynn, where you went to seminary if you did not learn the Gospel of Jesus Christ….I said Jesus, not Paul, not any of the other writers of the Christian Testament or the Hebrew Scriptures. There is a vast difference in the two. And touting the literalism and inerrancy of scripture is ludicrous, especially in your case. If you truly took it literally, you would not even post on this blog. Paul was pretty clear than the role of women was to sit down and be quiet. I don’t support that but then I don’t take Scripture literally either. Look in a mirror before you castigate others.
I see you are stalking me on the Internet. So you looked me up on Facebook. Considering you don’t reciprocate, I will continue to believe you are a graduate of a Bible College because that is the level of reasoning you demonstrate.
GCTS was nothing like Dallas when I was there as it actually trained us in academic methods, something neither of your alleged institutions taught you.
Additationly, what GCTS taught about inerrancy and infallibility is NOT what DS teaches.
Inerrancy applies only to the original autographs. They were without error. We know that the texts we have now are no longer inerrant for the simple reason that they are not identical.
Infallibility means simply that the Scriptures can be relied upon to allow us to know God, Mother/Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Name dropping is never becoming.
Laralynn. If you think anyone here is taking you seriously, you are deceiving yourself.
So well said as per usual, John. Another reminder of why I’ve always said the reason why IN GOD WE TRUST is on U.S. currency is bc that’s the God America trusts in.
In God we trust. All others must pay in cash or debit.
”In the Gospels, Jesus doesn’t once condemn a person for their gender identity or sexuality, but he says a great deal about religious people who sell their souls in order to gain wealth and about those who make life hell for the least of these. He’s not at all okay with them.”
As much as I enjoy your articles, John, I can’t help but think you a bit naive.
A hundred years will pass and there will be more of them than of you, because christian conservative evangelicals are not ever going to stop going after what they believe to be the truth and their truth is not your truth obviously.
It doesn’t mean you should just give up, but I’m afraid you keep advocating for Jesus when in fact it’s you that has the empathy and the willingness to help this in need of help. Not Jesus or God.. I mean……
Where is Jesus? Where is God?
Surely anyone worthy of worship would have shown themselves by now? How long can we make excuses for his absence while more people suffer at the hands of his own followers?
How many people must suffer unspeakably while Jesus and God seem to care very little. Either that, or in fact they do not exist, and we waste millions of dollars advertising for nothing, and millions of hours praying to thin air, while ignoring the problems we could actually help fix if we weren’t focused on trying to convince the world that a decent loving god actually exists but for some odd reason isn’t interested in saving people from pain and suffering not even those that believe they are god’s favorites.
Jaime, once again you are wrong. However, I have a great deal of compassion for you, as you are obviously in a lot of pain. Jesus did indeed address human sexuality and our behavior around it. He spoke very frankly about “sexual sins” and “lust”, and gave stern warnings about us making sure that we not allow these kinds of behavior to define us as we could miss heaven in the process.
So, for example, He used the term “FORNICATION” when speaking about sexual sins. That word comes from the Greek word, “Porneia”, and it means at its root, “all kinds of illicit sexual behavior”. That word is the word from which we get our word, “PORNOGRAPHY”, and that encompasses all sexual sins outside of heterosexual marriage. Therefore, Jesus refers to pre-marital sex, adultery, bestiality, incest, pedophilia, and homosexuality, to name a few, as sins that must be shunned and repented of. Hope this helps!
Laralynn
You are mixing an assortment of language to prove an invalid point. Jesus talked about lust, not sexuality and if you recall it was in the heart not in the flesh. Lust for humans or objects is an example of coercive, abusive or exploitive relationships that Jesus roundly condemned.
The Hebrew words used in the first creation story in Genesis do not mean male and female. They mean the equivalent of hunter/gatherer and nurturer. If you look at the dialogue in the creation stories what you see is the first human as needing a companion, hence, none of the animal parade God put before that first human was appropriate. The context of what became Genesis is also important: it was reflective of a world that treated women as property and in which few had any rights whatsoever. In the Hebrew Scriptures only a few women are identified as having any authority…Esther being among them, Ruth another to a lesser extent.
Remember that what we now call the Bible was the result of a vote at one of the councils at Nicaea just a few centuries into what became the church. Some books made it in the vote, the 66 we call the current canon, and others did not. Some appear as part of the Apocrypha. All were translated from ancient languages that recorded oral narratives. If we are honest, we know that what is shared orally is not always accurate. And if we are knowledgeable, we realize that some words and concepts do not have an English equivalent. Finally, the narratives in Scripture are events and stories described in the terms and language of those who witnessed them. Their language and observations may not always fit with our understandings.
It all boils down to two things: Rabbi Hillel noted that all the Torah could be summed up in love God and love your neighbor. As he then said: all else is commentary. Jesus, when asked what was the greatest commandment responded with Hear O Israel, the first and great commandment is this: Love the lord your God with all your heart and mind and soul and strength. The second is like unto it: Love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. It is quite clear that the plain meaning of scripture is summed up here with these commandments and our efforts to qualify any part of them with our issues is out of accord with their intent. By the way, it’s easy to tell if someone really takes Scripture literally: If they are missing an eye, foot, hand, etc. because of sin, they take it literally. Seen many lately? Didn’t think so.
Hey Laralynn. We may be related. I have a bunch of Nixon’s in my family line too. Do you have a family genealogy book? My line is James Nixon—who grew up somewhere in the vicinity of Smith County, Tennessee, in the early 1900s. I feel sure that his ancestors came in from elsewhere about 1802. Most of the families who settled in that area of Tennessee in pioneer times emigrated from North Carolina. Are there a lot of Nixon’s who live in the Concord area, or did your family move in from somewhere else?
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